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D3 sanity check (Read 23251 times)
lancashire Lad
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #50 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 7:16pm
 
I agree Hoppy And Batch your reminiscences are before my time. Didn't you used to throw pieces of foil from the window to keep Charlie at bay?  Wink
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Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #51 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 12:44am
 
Lancashire Lad,

Actually, it was the B-52s that used "Window" a type of chaff made of black paper with aluminum foil backing cut exactly 27 by 2 centimetres (10.63 in × 0.79 in) and packed into bundles each weighing 1 pound (0.45 kg).  It was a klingon tactic and fascinating bit of war fighting history developed during WWII by both sides to jam the first radars. 

Both sides knew about the technology but refrained from using it in fear the other side would use it on them... It was first used by the Brits against German radars followed shortly thereafter by the Bosh during the Battle of Britten to jam Chain Home, or CH for short, the AMES Type 1 (Air Ministry Experimental Station) early warning radars.

I've spent a good bit of time at the Imperial War Museum, Duxford, UK...  Five trips there to be exact...

Most of the Vietnam era Fighter and Attack aircraft were equipped with the ALE-29 Chaff dispensers...  We carried two 24-shot dispensers each loaded with a mix of flares and radar jamming aluminized fiberglass bundles cut to jam S, C and X-band radars. (E, G, and I band radars in current NATO lingo). 

One bundle was sufficient to create a protective radar reflective decoy cloud for A-4 and F-8 aircraft

We rarely wasted any chaff on radar controlled AAA...  Our Active DECM gear coupled with a simple jink in altitude was all that was needed in most cases to spoof radar controlled AAA.

The Soviet made Fan-Song, SA-2 Sam fire control radar as well as the Spoon Rest and Flat Face long range early warning radars coupled with the Side Net height-finders were another story...

We would routinely pick up the Spoon Rest and Flat Face early warning radars on our RAW gear as soon as we climbed above 5000' after launching from the carrier, 90 miles from the beach on Yankee Station...and the Side Net height-finding radars about the time we crossed the beach.

Fortunately, we had superior weapons systems, avionics, tactics and SOPs written in blood, so we were able to detect these radars long before they could detect us, and accurately identify the threat sectors long before we flew into their threat envelopes.

By the way, I was serious... deadly serious, about the threat from Statins...  If you could increase your knowledge base on the risks from this Big Pharma, AHA and AMA medical hoax... we'd like to hear your opinion...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #52 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 7:36am
 
Batch

You have a good memory for detail, maybe D3 is doing some good after all  Wink

As you know CM's can be used in multiple roles Decoy, Distraction, Confusion, Walk-Off etc and then came CCM's.

So when the call out for Statins Research came I instinctively thought "Distraction". He's trying to get the bugger off D3!

Then I remembered the less than easy relationship that D and Statins have.

Here in the UK, also, the controversy of Statins has been rolling on with recent studies highlighting the association with Diabetes and Parkinsons.

The evidence is that Statins have been over-hyped / used probably through a combination of a number of factors; profit led pharmas, lobby complacent politicians, pliable GP's and needy patients.

The truth is Statins have a useful roll to play but their mass dispensing programme has undoubtedly caused many problems, (more than they have solved? I don't know)

I take Statins, it took a while to find one that didn't make me feel like crap. 3 or 4 years ago I had a heart scare (there was nothing wrong with me) but I had developed chest pains, numbness down my left side, breathlessness and palpitations. It turned out that a BP med that I was on was causing the problems.

But in the effort to discover what was causing my symptoms I had every test done. they found nothing except on the MRI with dye they found a tiny crystal of calcium in one of the tubes to/from? my heart. (Apparently calcium crystals are like rats, there is never just one of them).

My cholesterol was well within acceptable bounds but I agreed to the Statins anyway.

It was intersting how the cause to my symptoms surfaced, I left hospital with new BP meds, after a couple of months I had run out and forgot to get a new prescription so I turned to my old meds until I had chance to get a new prescription. I took one of the old pills and bang, within a few hours all the symptoms were back.  When I met up with my cardiologist I described the incident to him, his response was "Yeh, they are not a particularly good  hypertensive medication". Having said that I had been taking them for 2 or 3 years without any problems (that I knew of)

Anyway my view;

Mass prescribing (indiscriminate) of Statins is bad
Some prescribing of Statins is good
Interaction of D3 and Statins is odd, also different Statins, different reactions.
Individual's drug tolerance varies immensely as do the mix of the various things that are slushing through our bodies. One person's blood results where they are demonstrably fit and healthy if found in someone else, they could be very sick.

What one person can tolerate and is "normal" for then can be extremely harmful to another.
Never change the balance of stuff slushing around without close medical supervision.
Listen to your doctor but don't necessarily trust him / her
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #53 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 10:07am
 
I started to take vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc 6 years ago, and my BP dropped from 130/90 to 100/70. So no need for BP medication.  Smiley

My cholesterol level is to high if you ask my physician , but I'm convinced that the cholesterol lowering campaign to lower the risk of stroke etc. is a big lie. The recommendations are only based on a hypothesis and has never been proven.

The International network of cholesterol skeptics: Thincs
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #54 - Mar 15th, 2015 at 7:25pm
 
Lancashire Lad, NHS,

Thank you both for two outstanding and very informative posts!!!  Now we're talking...

Here's my take...

1.  The cholesterol myth is one of the biggest lies fueling the use of statins.  Keys "cooked" the data in his original 1961 study with flawed methodology and glaring omissions to show an exaggerated "correlation" between elevated serum cholesterol levels and increased mortality... Yet there was no supportable evidence this relationship was causal in nature... 

Had the Keys study been subjected to real scientific rigor* with an unbiased and objective peer review process, the study results would have been laughed into obscurity as junk science... until Keys or his acolytes tried to perpetrate the same lies again...

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The Masai people ate a traditional diet of raw meat and the drank a mixture of cow's milk and cow's blood...  a diet extremely high in cholesterol... yet they remained very slim (and very tall) with very low body fat and near zero incidence of cardiovascular disease.  They also developed a higher average level of cutaneous vitamin D3...

Yes, they've got the genes or evolved the genes for this diet, but bring them to the US and put them on the "Standard American Diet" (S.A.D.) and they experience obesity along with CVD at the same elevated incidence as too many people here in the US.

The same thing can be said for the Aleut people.  Their traditional diet consisted of fish, shellfish, whale, walrus and seal meat and blubber along with game animals, caribou, musk oxen, deer, and moose...  During the summer, they picked a few berries and roots.

Again, a diet very high in cholesterol and although they had a higher level of body fat than the Masai...  they experienced the same very low incidence of CVD...  Not much sun at the higher latitudes so they got their vitamin D3 from fish and fatty meats.

Then along came traders from the South with alcohol, the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the US Dept. of Agriculture with the S.A.D. diet...  As a result, the incidence of obesity and CVD among the Aleut people shot up with a concomitant increase in mortality rates.

2.  What is it in the S.A.D. diet (and it is a very sad diet) that causes the problems?

Sugar, high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) and refined starches... primarily from grains... It's essentially a diet with more carbohydrates than the human body can withstand without becoming obese and/or falling ill to a wide range of medical disorders with high morbidity and mortality rates.

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And the real kicker... Total Carbohydrates and obesity

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4.  The following link to an article by Dr. Thomas S. Cowan, MD, debunks the myth that high cholesterol causes an increase in CVD and in mortality rates...  I've also checked Dollars for Doc's at propublica.org...  Dr. Cowan is not on the take...

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3.  So why do Big Pharma, the AHS, AMA and Big Government keep pushing statins? 

The answer is simple... Follow the money...  Statins have converted too many physicians into drug pushers prescribing a life long course of man made drugs that are not needed instead of treating the underlying condition... (Usually a poor diet high in carbohydrates, no exercise and not enough vitamin D3).  Patients all over the world are blindly being hooked for life on statins resulting in a bottom line profit to Big Pharma in the Billions of dollars (USD) a year. 

Big Pharma ensures that profit continues unabated with industry sponsored CME and financial incentives to practicing physicians.  Too many physicians in leadership rolls in the heart and medical associations as well as big government follow suit either as willing minions on the take or incompetent dupes. 

It's the big government role in statins that concerns me the most...  These are the same nanny state, liberal progressive bureaucrats (read socialists and pinko commies) who think we're stupid in matters of healthcare yet they're so inept they can't contract for a functioning obamacare web site.

Last year, the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) revised its guidelines for preventing heart disease by lowering the safe level of cholesterol. One result was that the number of people who can benefit from taking cholesterol-lowering statin drugs nearly tripled.

(You know Big Pharma is loving the heck out of the NIH revised guidelines.)

Under the old guidelines, 13 million Americans were targets for cholesterol-lowering drugs; under the new guidelines, that number rose to 36 million, meaning far more people should be able to use them to decrease their risk for heart disease.

(YGBSM!!! That's pure BS!!!)

The new targets for cholesterol are much lower than they were. The new goal is to get your LDL, or "bad" cholesterol level, below 100. The old recommendation was 130. These are the strictest guidelines, set for people with many risk factors.

One of the independent risk factors listed in the report is diabetes; the NIH guidelines say that having diabetes is as important a risk factor as having heart disease itself. You're also at higher risk for heart disease if you smoke, have high blood pressure, are older, or if you have a family history of heart disease... 

Yet there were huge glaring omissions in the junk science used to support this revision...  There was no mention of carbohydrate intake and metabolic syndrome...  only a pharmaceutical solution...  Again... follow the money... 

Moreover, there was also no mention of gold standard RCTs, sponsored by NIH, showing a proper diet combined with Omega-3 fatty acids and exercise were just as effective in lowering LDL as statins…

So were does that leave us…  and what should we do?  The simple message is take an active role in your healthcare and nutrition.  Time spent reading on what works and what doesn’t, should be done with a critical eye on any proofs or evidence.  In the final analysis, this could easily be the best health insurance you can invest in given the increased cost of healthcare insurance and decline in healthcare delivery…

Lancashire Lad and I are in total agreement that seeing your PCP or neurologist is a must…  We’re also in agreement that some physicians may not be all that trustworthy or competent…  particularly if their solutions are only pharmaceutical in nature and they don’t provide a clear discussion of the side effect risks associated with these pharmaceutical solutions.

Good science is not a consensus…  The beauty of the scientific method comes in proving the stated hypothesis, then, defending that proof in peer reviews and having others find your results repeatable…

That Lancashire Lad and I have yet to prove our respective hypothesis to each other’s satisfaction with respect to the efficacy and safety of vitamin D3 is understandable…  And that’s the beauty of this website.

Take care and I hope these last few posts were worth your time.  Thank you again Lancashire Lad and NIH.

V/R, Batch

* See the following link for an excellent discussion of scientific rigor...

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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #55 - Mar 16th, 2015 at 5:58am
 
Lancashire Lad: "But in the effort to discover what was causing my symptoms I had every test done. they found nothing except on the MRI with dye they found a tiny crystal of calcium in one of the tubes to/from? my heart. (Apparently calcium crystals are like rats, there is never just one of them)."

10 years ago I was diagnosed with Shoulder Impingement Syndrome (calcium deposits). My symptoms included difficulty reaching up behind the back, pain with overhead use of the arm and weakness of shoulder muscles. The only treatments are painkillers, anti-inflammatory drugs or surgery.

But after reading about chelation, I started to take 2 tblsp. of organic apple cider vinegar per day. 3 months later I coundn´t move my left arm and had lot of shoulder pain for about 3 weeks. But afterwards my shoulder went normal and all the symptoms were gone for good. Cheesy
In the same periode I experience some heart block symptoms, and I got my heart scanned. Before I recieved the result my symptoms were gone, and the scanning showed no signs of calcium crystalt at all. So my theory is that the apple cider vinegar has removed calcium from my heart too, which might explain the heart block symptoms. My physician was very surprised not to find any calcium deposits, which is normal in my age and especially since I have been smoking 20 cigarettes per day for 40 years. Smiley

So taking apple cider vinegar is one of my daily routines.  Smiley
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #56 - Mar 16th, 2015 at 6:00am
 
interesting thread !!!  to say the least

Batch, my money is on you mate !  100 %

I had a neurologist 2 years ago say that O2 wouldn't work
the next neurologist put me on fast release verapamil without a follow up check on b/p  I actually crashed !
plus, advised me to double my intake of ibuprofen !
  imagine the last 2/12 years on that stuff and the state that my gut would have been in !!!!
Lancashire, please inform me on any appropriate tests that I should be taking, im going to my doctor for my 3 monthly tests because of the vit d3 regime im on, I need to no about the heart attack and stroke im going to have !!
I take 10,000iu vit d3 per day
all the other co efficients
for 2years now.
pryor to taking the regime, I was 35 nmol,
in the sun 365 days a year, have skin cancers getting burnt off every other year,   deficient
past tests indicate im at 200 nmol  and maintain it with 10k vit d3 daily.
cholesterol............acceptable range
calcium.................acceptable range
b/p ...................   120/70    im a smoker and 54 yo
heart and functionality test.......excellent

when you talk about facts
     the only facts worth a grain of salt, are those of us that remain pain free on the regime and with no evidential issues that you are claiming will happen to us.
googles a great thing, but ive always said its a great way to collect information, but real life is always a lot better.

reminds me of the recent study that claimed fish oil gave us prostate cancer !!!!!
funny how it was funded by a particular drug company that produces a chemical cholesterol lowering drug. !!!!!!!
we all know how the ill informed got sucked into that !
as mentioned,  theirs no better acknowledgement or proof of fact, than those of us on the regime,  still breathing, still functioning, pain free, or dramatically reduced symptoms,  no heart attack or stroke, clean bill of health 

didn't they once write,  the world is flat ?
if its written down, it must be right ? right
cant say I really enjoyed some of your comments, especially the disrespectful  ones directed at batch !
he has runs on the board Lancashire
no fatalities thus far
you, have a bunch of theories derived from a small section of research into vitamin " possible intoxication " and its "supposed side effects, again, theory not proven.
you quoted about reaction at cell level ?  don't stop there explain what happens, or haven't you read about that yet. Batch goes into detail about the cellular structure and its effects with vit d3 and vit a and there interaction.
Equally, Batch cant definitely say, it the wonder treatment, but neither can you unequivably quote " that it is dangerous.
perhaps its you that should pedal your biased approach to vit d3 in Saudi Arabia,  but firstly, until you get properly diagnosed from a h/a specialist that you DEFINATELY have cluster headaches, so that you officially walk in our shoes, a more open minded and proper research into all studies on the subject might be in order here !
   without the regime, my life wouldn't function, with the " dirty drugs" as my neuro told me I would have to take if verapamil didn't work, which is documented as causing fibrosis of internal organs ( I forget the name of it ), geeez, its a no brainer !   
this is generally the reaction of people, including doctors, of a little bit of information is dangerous !  as well as some peoples ego I might add   Grin

as mentioned, my money's on batch !!!  to many good reports of positiveness on the vit d3 effect in all walks of medicine to dismiss because of one study, which offers a view which is theory and unsubstantiated with proper clinical trials, and while interesting and worth the read, it would be extremely naïve to make the assumption that this is gospel, in turn refuting many many other independent studies proving otherwise, or as you say, "it is dangerous "
so so naïve ! that comment needs to be pedalled else where, until the facts are unquestionable !

well what a block buster first post in a while !!!    Grin


and as always, just my opinion
colin

 
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Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #57 - Mar 16th, 2015 at 9:24pm
 
How Timely... A great article titled:

Statin Disaster, Heart Disease and Magnesium – Change in Cholesterol Recommendations

See the following link:

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A zinger quote from the article...

"Statins are the most profitable drugs in the history of Big Pharma. Statins fail to prevent or treat heart disease for almost everyone who takes them and they are causing more harm than any other class of medications. Dr. David Brownstein shows us why the cholesterol = heart disease hypothesis is a failed paradigm and why the drugs should be pulled off the market. My advice is to run from Your Statin Recommending Cardiologist. "

Take care, read and heed...  I don't push bum gouge...

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2015 at 9:27pm by Batch »  

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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #58 - Mar 17th, 2015 at 3:52am
 
Batch, do you have some hypothesis why we got CH? Smiley

I think the root cause is gastrointestinal tract related like many other illness. So I have been taking several natural stuff to strengthen my stomach acid and digestive system. After 6 months I dropped vitamin D etc. for 2 months and had no signs off CH in the period. Some of the natural stuff I take is excellent for removing lactic acid buildup, which I think is the "pain starter". One of the remedies I take daily is citric acid to remove lactate and to strengthen the stomach acid. It seems that vitamin-D increases the body's citric acid levels, so maybe that is why it´s effective against CH?
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #59 - Mar 17th, 2015 at 12:31pm
 
NHS,

Good question...  and fascinating topic that I allow myself to indulge in on occasion... and this is one of them.

I've several ideas, but none that would rise to the level of a hypothesis.  You've already brought up some excellent candidates.  I'm also in complete agreement that a healthy and happy gut plays a role in CH prevention.

Without time to compose my thoughts properly on paper and sleep on them, the following will likely be a stream of consciousness... with holes and fragments...  so please bear with me...

(Editor's Note - I've tidied up most of the dangling participles and disconnected thoughts after a pleasant combat nap.)

I start with the age old question of genes or environment...  With respect to CH, I think there's sufficient evidence to make a case for causality based on a combination of both genes and environment.

The following quote by Motulsky A., Nutrition and genetic susceptibility to common diseases. Am J Clin Nutrition, kind of sums it all up...  at least for me...

"Dr. Williams coined the term "genetotrophic disease" to describe diseases which resulted from genetically determined nutritional metabolic needs not being met by the individual and which result in poor gene expression. Motulsky has recently argued that many of the common degenerative diseases are the result of the imbalance nutritional intake with genetically determined needs for good health."

With that as a preamble, my base level causal factor lies in the morphology of the trigeminal ganglia and surrounding vascular structures.

When the arterial structures in and around the trigeminal ganglia are so arranged as to impinge or chafe any part of the ganglia, externally or within during vasodilation, there's a cascade effect of pain emanating from within the vascular structures and the transmission media, (the trigeminal ganglia and the three trigeminal nerves).

Natural asymmetry occurring during embryo phase of development could easily account for the one-sided nature of the CH disorder.

Although the vascular theory of CH pathogenesis has taken a back seat to the neurogenic theory, (I spent two days discussing this very topic with Dr. Arne May, MD, at his UKE facilities, University of Hamburg Medical School in 2009). Even he says vasodilation still plays a role, but downstream from the neurogenic initiation. 

In as much as I've a dated degree in chemistry circa 1966 with requisite courses in biochem, instrumental analysis and physics, I look at the cluster headache syndrome much like the fire triangle made up of heat, fuel and oxygen.  If you set the stage with any two of these components in place, the third component becomes a trigger and we have fire... or in our case with the CH disorder, we get hit. 

Accordingly, if the trigeminal ganglia's  vascular structures are not arranged properly, we have one corner of the fire triangle, hence we're predisposed or susceptible to CH.

The really fascinating chemistry takes place at the genetic level. They didn't start the $3 Billion dollar human genome project until 1990, and didn't declare it complete until 2003 when they had sequenced and mapped out most of human genome...   

BTW, I used to walk by a display of the hardware and stacks of notebooks used to sequence the human genome at NIH at least once a month for over 5 years...  I was a study participant in three back-to-back clinical trials for an eye condition at the National Eye Institute, NIH...

Since 2003, there have been tens of thousands of papers and studies involving the genetic underpinnings of nearly every degenerative disorder known to man.

There is no question in my mind that the success of the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 as a CH preventative represents an "out of the box" new insight into the pathogenesis of CH...  It just needs to be reverse engineered to look at causality.

I'm also firmly convinced that the mechanism of action for this regimen lies with the autocrine/paracrine signaling role vitamin D3 plays at the genetic level triggering genetic expression. 

This is where a 1,25(OH)2D3 molecule combines with one of the retinoid molecules (vitamin A) to form a dimer bridge that then attaches one end to a vitamin D receptor (VDR) and the other to a Retinoid X Receptor (RXR) in a vitamin D response element (VDRE) on a candidate gene.

When this happens, and Dr. Robert Heaney explains it best by saying, "vitamin D3 unlocks the cells genetic library of instructions and the cell starts executing them" i.e., genetic expression.

During genetic expression, the cell starts performing one or more of the following activities:  it replicates, differentiates, starts producing or inhibiting the production of peptides and other active chemicals that signal or control other biological processes elsewhere throughout the body, or the cell dies.

There's a mind blowing (pardon the pun) study titled, Distribution of the Vitamin D receptor and 1 α-hydroxylase in human brain, Eyles et al, published in the Journal of Chemical Neuroanatomy in 2005. This study found VDR and 1α-OHase, the enzyme that's needed to hydroxylate 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D3, throughout most of the brain tissue. 

However, it's significant to note, they were found in the highest concentrations in the trigeminal ganglia and hypothalamus. (Ι'm confident Dr. Arne May would love this finding... Now we're talking the neurogenic head waters of CH pathogenesis.).

If we follow this confluence of findings and add in calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP), which several studies have found is produced in the trigeminal ganglia and elevated in the bloodstream during the pain phase of CH and migraine... we have a possible trigger. 

Adding one more factoid (and assumption), that vitamin D3 has been shown to down regulate/suppress the production of CGRP, (quite possibly through genetic expression), we have a viable candidate mechanism of action for vitamin D3's capacity to prevent CH.

I say possible candidate, as a 2010 study identified 2776 genomic positions occupied by the VDR and 229 genes with significant changes in expression in response to vitamin D3...  Sooo... there are thousands of other candidates for genetic expression made possible by vitamin D3... and any one or more of them could easily play a role in a mechanism of action inhibiting CH pathogenesis...

That said, I'll stick with the CGRP gambit for now as there is corroborating evidence provided by none other than the good Dr. Peter Goadsby and Dr. David Dodick.  These two neurologist have tag teamed on a pair of phase 2 RCTs involving the use of two monoclonal antibodies, ALD403 (Alder BioPharmaceuticals Inc) and LY2951742 (Eli Lilly and Company), both with an appetite for CGRP... to prevent migraine headaches...

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Given there is sufficient overlap in the pathophysiology of CH and migraine and that CGRP is a common component in both headache disorders, it's not unreasonable to expect these two MABs will eventually find their way into the treatment of CH...  at an average cost of $5000/week... 

Unfortunately, all biologics/MABs carry a long list of side effects that range in order from nasty to down-right onerous including: compromised immune system, life threatening infections like tuberculosis and pneumonia, fungal infections and a growing list of cancers.  Watch the TV ads for Humira (Adalimumab) and you'll get an even longer list of adverse side effects.

Having taken one of the MABs, daclizumab, (a potent immunosuppressant used following kidney transplants to prevent rejection), during one of the clinical trials at NIH... experiencing squamous cell carcinoma and eosinophilic meningitis within two months after starting it...  I'll stick with the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and the cofactors at ~ 40 cents/day to prevent my CH...

As a side note... it's entirely possible that serum vitamin D3 enters the target nerve cells where it is hydroxylated into 25(OH)D and on to 1,25(OH)2D3 so as to initiate genetic expression rather than waiting for vitamin D3 to be hydroxylated first to 25(OH)D, then entering the target nerve cell.  This might appear to be a minor difference in the overall process, but it speaks to the initial speed of response.

In looking at the favorable response time data after start of regimen from the online survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH, the shape of this response curve matches the absorption of vitamin D3 into the blood stream...

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As you can see the serum concentration of 25(OH)D doesn't reach a maximum concentration until the 5th to 6th day after dose.

Moving on... Your comment on the human microbiome, the friendly colonies of flora and fauna living in the human GI tract from mouth to tail pipe, playing a role in the pathogenesis of CH has just as much merit as anything I've suggested.

When you consider the human microbiome represents several orders of magnitude greater biodiversity than the human genome, and many of these wee beasties (Leeuwenhoek), respond to vitamin D3, the number of possible CH causal factors are huge...

Moreover, as most (70%) of the immune system lies within a 4 inch radius of the GI tract, it's entirely possible that CH could easily fall among the other 80 degenerative conditions that ride under the heading of autoimmune disorders...

That throws the paradigm that cluster headache is a neurological disorder that should be treated only by a neurologist, into a cocked hat...

Clearly, neurologists specializing in headache disorders are better trained to diagnose CH...  That said, until the anti-inflammatory regimen becomes part of the standards of care recommended treatments for CH... I'm not sure that training equates to effective treatment.

Moreover, CH'ers might be better served by seeing an endocrinologist, immunologist or practicing nutritionist after being diagnosed for CH by a neurologist... 

So there you have the latest thoughts on the pathogenesis of CH currently rattling around my 70 year old brain...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #60 - Mar 17th, 2015 at 5:03pm
 
@Batch....

All very interesting ideas to ponder. My own experiences have led me to believe in the "gut" connection to CH. During my worst attacks, I would be able to count on a gastro-intestinal response. There is plenty of evidence that vasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP) is also quite elevated along with CGRP. Whenever I was experiencing this, I had a heads-up that it was going to be a doozy.
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #61 - Mar 17th, 2015 at 9:56pm
 
Pattik,

Your comment on VIP is spot on...  You've made an excellent point and observation that clearly implicate the gut as playing a significant role in the pathogenesis of CH...

There's an interesting 1978 article on Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide by Bryant in the Journal of Clinical Pathology that provided a recap of available research done at the time on VIP. 

His article found VIP is produced in the sublingual salivary glands and has a serum half-life in humans of 62 to 85 minutes. (sound familiar).

VIP is found throughout the GI tract with the highest concentrations nearly double found elsewhere in the GI tract, occurring in the large intestine.

At face value, this finding makes a case for evacuating the bowel at the first sign of a CH... After all, in the absence of an effective CH abortive, there's really nothing better to do.  Even with an abortive like one of the triptans, there's still the time needed for it to take effect that could be spent more productively...

Many thanks.

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #62 - Mar 18th, 2015 at 4:05am
 
firstly, thankyou Batch for your thread, 2 years ago I would have stopped reading past the first paragraph !  but thru research and talking to you, Im starting to understand, and I re-iterate starting to understand more and more about matters of the body and their connection to CH.
I wasn't going to mention this until after I had done it, but,
6 odd months ago I took a heavy course of antibiotics, which you may remember I discussed with you and in conversation you recommended a course of probiotic.
Now I shadowed consistently last june to December, and the only time those shadows went away, was the month I was on probiotics !  didn't think much of it and in December started taking 180mg daily of verapamil, which ive been on ever since, Im still taking the regime daily with out fail, including k2, but felt that maybe going back on verapamil, the two would make me completely pain free. The last 3 months, have been o.k, very few shadows, and easily stopped with a red bull. BUT, I always have issues with magnesium, looseness  LOL,   but in my diary, both shadows and looseness disappeared totally while on probiotics,   I decided that I was going to go on probiotics for a couple of months, with everything else and see if I get the same result, which would mean I could again try going off verapamil and be soly on the regime.
Im hoping, as previously mentioned by NHS, that the probiotics are the missing link for me, along with the regime, to go to that complete pain free state, like so many others have done.
So the topic of the G I tract, is interesting to me, as Im about to start take a good probiotic and see if what, if any difference, it might make !   
   as you know, ive tried just about everything else ! but I do remain totally committed to the regime, It has reduced the symptoms of CH for me, dramatically,  But its always baffled me how it works for 60% of those taking it completely  and the other 20 plus %, like me, it doesn't quite get us pain free ?   maybe there's a percentage of us that should investigate the gut area, like NHS has already experimented with and seems to have some encouraging results,  and hopefully I can reciprocate the month I had previously taking probiotics.
I'll stay on them for 3 months and let you know how things progress
cheers
colin   
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #63 - Mar 18th, 2015 at 8:02am
 
Colin,

You've got a sound plan with the probiotics.   The only other things I'd suggest would be to pick up some 30 mg zinc tablets and take one a day for a week to see what happens.  I'd also suggest fruit/berry smoothies in the morning. 

Fruit/berry smoothies are a great source of antioxidants and the little bit of fiber we can't digest makes a great meal for the friendly colonies of wee beasties you're trying to recolonize. 

I make mine with a fresh pineapple spear, a banana, a half cup of blueberries or black berries... (I found the frozen blueberries to be less expensive), a big handful of strawberries, an orange or an apple, a quarter inch slice of fresh ginger, a handful of fresh spinach, and one stock of kale or three to four spears of raw asparagus. 

I usually add a half cup of cranberry juice or coconut water to get the blending process going without cavitation then select the highest speed or press the smoothie button and let the blender puree the contents into a purple colored milkshake consistency.  The above proportions fill two large glasses so my wife gets one too.  They're quite tasty.

Big straws help...  My wife gets irritated when my moustache turns purple.

There are lots of great smoothie recipes at the following link: 

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Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #64 - Mar 18th, 2015 at 11:04am
 
Radiolab ran a very interesting episode with neuroscientist John Cryan about the possibilities of what the bacteria in our gut can do and how probiotics may someday be at the front of medical science and psychiatry.

It's pointed out that the amount of bacteria in our gut come out to weigh about three pounds! At that size it's about the same weight as the brain; some speculate that they are an additional "organ" we know nothing about.

My favorite quote from this episode is "...it's poetic that a lot of our moods come from an organ that produces s#!t..."

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only 17 minutes long but packed full of information!

Gary
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #65 - Mar 19th, 2015 at 6:51am
 
Hi batch,,, thanks for your imput
I have to admit, although I eat healthy, courtesy of my wife, I don't really eat rubbish,  I do eat a lot of bread, those quick peanut butter and honey snacks  LOL
But your right, the fruit and berry smoothies sound like a great idea and very relative to the gut.
I got the inner health probiotic today and its 3 months supply, they actually have a nutrishinest in the chemist I got to. She said to take two a day for the first week, then drop to 1 daily, I think there's about 35 billion of them little suckers in each pill !
I'll do the 3 months and see how the magnesium issue goes, and I seldom go a month without some sort of shadowing.  I guess there like vit d3, taking a probiotic has to be healthy in any ways, well, its a lot healthier than what my nuerologist was going to prescribe for me.
I'll get the zinc you recommended, but I might just use the probiotic first, so as I don't confuse which one if any will make a difference,  and as far as the fruit smoothies go,my wife just told me she just gave the smoothie maker away because I never used it  LOL   ironical
I'll buy another one, our fridge is always full of blue berry's
strawberries etc etc, my wife eats them all the time, I just stand at the fridge as I walk past occasionally and open the door and graze sometimes  LOL  but the smoothie idea sounds great and i'll set myself up as you have and make it my morning  morning ritual .
thanks batch, i'll keep you informed ...
hope all's well with yourself and family over in your neck of the woods.
regards
colin    
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #66 - Mar 19th, 2015 at 6:55am
 
Glassman, thanks for that link
I don't have time ti listen to it tonight ( getting late here)
But it sounds interesting and i'll be listening to that tomorrow night,   cheers

colin
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #67 - Mar 19th, 2015 at 4:26pm
 
Colin,

Smoothies, GOMES diet and probiotics are great additions to the anti-inflammatory regimen as a coordinated therapy to control CH.  I do all three...

Unfortunately, eating the frequent PB&J sandwich (a comfort food that tastes so good), likely diminishes or compromises the beneficial effects of the fruit smoothie, GOMBS diet and process of repairing or recolonizing the gut's microbiome by taking probiotics.  This plays into the possibility that CH is yet another disorder in the growing list of autoimmune disorders.

Research into the relationship between autoimmune disorders and the human microbiome have have resulted in glutens being placed on the "Do not Eat" list of foods for a growing number of the autoimmune disorders as they contribute to a "leaky gut" (increased intestinal permeability)...

Sugar is likely fueling a condition called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). "SBIO results in the excessive fermentation of dietary carbohydrates and the accompanying flatulence, bloating, abdominal pain, diarrhea, and constipation."

"Autoimmune diseases, including type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, and rheumatoid arthritis, are characterized by increased intestinal permeability secondary to non-competent tight junctions that allow the passage of antigens from the intestinal flora, challenging the immune system to produce an immune response that can target any organ or tissue in genetically predisposed individuals."

There's an excellent article in Today's Dietician, that goes into detail on this topic at the following link: 

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Accordingly, after a lot of reading, personal experiences and reports from other CH'ers, It's clear to me that the immune system plays a significant role in CH. 

That said, it's not clear at this point if that role is directly involved as a participant in the pathogenesis of CH or indirectly involved as a competing consumer of vitamin D3 and its metabolites.  Either way, as 70% of our immune system is located in and around the gut, having a happy and healthy gut (microbiome) is an important part of a healthy immune system...

How am I doing?  Well...  let's just say I've done better...  As you can see in the first photo below, the Red Alder catkins loaded with pollen are blooming.

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The house and yard are surrounded by hundreds of 100 foot tall mature Red Alder trees.

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As a result... we've been having a crap storm of Alder pollen for the last week and the worse is yet to come as the Alder catkin bloom will not reach a peak for another week.

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Not to be outdone, we've a half dozen large Pacific Maple trees within 50 feet of the house.  Three of them, right outside the bedroom window, are huge 250 year old trees that look like something out of Jurassic Park with sword ferns growing out of 40 inch diameter moss covered trunks 15 feet above the ground.

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Unfortunately, all these Maples are loaded with buds that will produce a second pollen storm that will peak around mid April...  Sooo.... I've got at least another month of this crap.

I stopped my calcium supplements, and bumped my vitamin D3 intake to 25,000 IU/day along with an increase in magnesium to 800 mg/day the 1st of March in anticipation of the pollen season.  10 days ago as the pollen started falling, I bumped the vitamin D3 dose again, this time to 40,000 IU/day divided into four doses spread throughout the day.

This increased vitamin D3 intake is working for the most part... but it's not 100% effective.  I've averaged 1 or 2 minor hits every 24 hours over the last week, usually while sleeping...  Fortunately, most of these hits resolve spontaneously in less than 3 to 4 minutes as soon as I get up and start breathing more deeply... 

None of these hits have gone above a Kip-5 or lasted longer than 15 minutes...  However, after living substantially CH pain free for over four years, it's clear to me that having my immune system insulted by an allergic response to tree pollen, makes it a clear player in the cluster headache syndrome.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #68 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 12:05am
 
Wow Batch, I remember a while back when we skyped you were talking about the pollen you were then getting and its effect. We have plane trees out the front of our place and they do the same thing, pollen everywhere, which sends my eyes and nose into a spin. We were in Barcelona a few years back and they have the plane trees there as well, both myself and my wife were amazed how it literally burnt the back of your throat as we walked around, even the locals were wearing scarves around there faces.
Any way, been on the probiotics for my third day now, the girl at the chemist said take 2 aday for the first week then drop back to a daily 1 dose. Well, first day, I took a full dose of magnesium 500 mg ( I normally split dose) plus I took an extra strength fish oil, which I had dropped from the regime a month or so back, as that contributed to the " looooseness  LOL,    I have to report, that from day one, there has been absolutely no reaction from the magnesium, which is the first time in months !!!! last nite I even tempted fate and took a double dose of fishoil with the 500 mg magnesium,   how can I delicately put this,    well,  there is no looseness at all !!   I just cant get over the immediate response that the probiotic has had !!!!
  Now I don't know what reaction the probiotic will have on helping me get fully pain free, only a prolonged stay on them will tell,  But for all you people using the regime having trouble in that department, splitting doses or taking as little magnesium you can,  please give the probiotics a go, It was instant for me !!!   
Im so glad I kept a diary, and went back over it when I took probiotics 3- months ago, but the penny never dropped at the time.
will let you know if I now get a reduction in the shadows and mini cluster hits Ive been experiencing over the past 6-7 months.   Very interesting !!!!!
regards
colin
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #69 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 12:35am
 
Hey Colin,

Great feedback and another important data point...  Many thanks...  I've found it amazing that doing little things like take a couple probiotic pills can have such a major effect on day to day activities...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #70 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 5:00am
 
Hi Batch and Colin,
I must be the odd man out! I'm still having a problem in that
Area, drinking lots of water during the day, and a dam buster
At night (Prune Juice) with 400mg Magnesium Citrate, but to
No avail, always constipated  Smiley.

Hoppy.
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Reply #71 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 8:16am
 
Hoppy,

Magnesium citrate's increased absorption and bioavailability may be part of the problem...  Osmotic diarrhea is typically caused by undissolved magnesium salts drawing water into the bowels.  Pick up some 250 mg magnesium oxide tablets and titrate up with an extra glass of water to reach the desired consistency.

A more natural method would be to drink fruit smoothies with pineapple, apple, and carrots.  That will provide more indigestible fibers.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #72 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 11:56am
 
Batch,
What is your opinion of topical magnesium lotions, gells, etc?  A friend of mine has as her M.D. a big time sport med doc and he has his pro athleates using that. The size of the magnesium tablets is some what off putting to me.
Gary
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Reply #73 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 4:47pm
 
Gary,

Hmmm... you sound just like my wife...  "Those pills are toooo big..." but she takes them...  I've found that the liquid softgel form of magnesium capsules slide down the gullet very nicely...  Were they solid tablets, it would be another story...

Regarding Epsom Salt Baths, magnesium sulphate passes through the skin quite nicely.  A hot soak in a tub with Epsom Salt is also very relaxing... 

Unfortunately, taking 10,000 IU/day or more vitamin D3 likely consumes more magnesium that you absorb in an Epsom Salt bath... You'd need to soak for an hour a day or more to take in enough magnesium through the skin to keep up with the amount used by vitamin D3.

Transdermal magnesium preparations are typically magnesium chloride, but you run into the same problem meeting magnesium consumption... You'd need to lather up with magnesium oils or gels a couple times daily...  It's also the most expensive form of magnesium...

In short, we process more magnesium while taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take than the average professional jock...

One simple solution is a teaspoon of magnesium chloride every 3 to 5 days...  ~ 9 cents a day.  You could also add the powdered magnesium chloride to a fruit smoothie.  Henry Lahore at Vitamin D Wiki has an excellent web page on low cost vitamin D3 cofactors at the following link: 

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Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: D3 sanity check
Reply #74 - Mar 21st, 2015 at 6:56pm
 
Thanks Batch,
Great information, as always! Smiley
Gary
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