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Noob on D3 (Read 17725 times)
Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #50 - May 31st, 2014 at 10:54am
 
Visperas,

Great questions...  Let's start with your 25(OH)D serum concentration...  Yours is between 95 and 98 ng/mL and you're staying mostly CH pain free so this appears to be a good therapeutic range to maintain...

The serum concentration of 25(OH)D is essentially a biological marker of vitamin D3 status... 

The higher the 25(OH)D serum concentration the better and 80 ng/mL is a good target...  Above that, there's really no problem until you start approaching 200 ng/mL...  Routine serum 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH lab tests are prudent if you need to maintain a 25(OH)D serum concentration above 100 ng/mL

The 25(OH)D serum concentration also represent an indication of vitamin D3 reserves once you've reached a reasonably stable serum concentration... and your 25(OH)D serum concentration is relatively stable... 

Higher 25(OH)D reserves near the target serum concentration mean the incidence of a CH relapse is much lower in the event of a viral or bacterial infection or an allergic reaction... These conditions trigger an immune response that will consume 25(OH)D rapidly as do injury or surgery.

1,25(OH)2D3 serum concentrations are generally a 1000 times less than 25(OH)D and they fluctuate rapidly from day to day as a function of calcium homeostasis.

It all depends on the serum calcium concentration and the serum concentration of the parathyroid hormone PTH.  When the serum calcium concentration starts to drop, the parathyroids sense this condition and start pumping out PTH. 

PTH signals the kidneys to metabolize more 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3 which in turn pulls more calcium from the gut and pushes it into the blood stream.  As the serum concentration of calcium rises, PTH drops so less 1,25(OH)2D3 is produced...   It's all a very tightly controlled balancing act to maintain serum calcium concentration in a very narrow range.

Vitamin D3 intoxication occurs under a couple situations...  A hyperactive parathyroid produces too much PTH and this triggers the kidneys to produce too much 1,25(OH)2D3 and this pulls too much calcium from the gut resulting in calcium serum concentrations above its normal reference range...  (vitamin D3 intoxication).

If we take too much vitamin D3, (a lot more than called for in the anti-inflammatory regimen) our liver will produce too much 25(OH)D.  This overloads the body's mechanisms for controlling 25(OH)D metabolism and this can also result in a calcium serum concentration above its normal reference range...   (vitamin D3 intoxication).

Magnesium plays an essential roll in the enzymatic processes involved in metabolizing vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D and then on to 1,25(OH)2D3, (Calcitriol), the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3.  Magnesium levels can also be affected by other blood electrolytes...

Most of the above discussion deals with the endocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism and calcium homeostasis...  Roughly 20% of the 25(OH)D metabolized from vitamin D3 in the liver is further metabolized by the kidneys into 1,25(OH)2D3 to maintain calcium homeostasis... 

The other 80% of the 25(OH)D produced by the liver is metabolized and consumed at the cellular and nuclear level throughout the body in what is called the autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism...

It's this path of vitamin D3 metabolism we think is responsible for preventing CH and migraines.  The leading theory is the genetic expression made possible by vitamin D3, [1,25(OH)2D3] and retinol (vitamin A) trigger the nerve cells to stop producing calcitonin gene-related peptide, (CGRP).

CGRP is a vasodilator and responsible for not only pain transmission but also neurogenic inflammation...  both are part of the pathophysiology of cluster headache.

In this path of vitamin D3 metabolism, 25(OH)D and vitamin A (retinol) are absorbed in the cell wall and metabolized to 1,25(OH)2D3 and a family of retinoids within the cell.  The 1,25(OH)2D3 then combines with retinoids to form a bridge attaching to specific genes at a vitamin D3 receptor (VDR) and Retinoid-X receptor (RXR).

This process unlocks the cell's genetic library and triggers the cell to perform any one of a number of functions...  In our case as CH'ers, the cell slows or stops producing CGRP.  It's also important to note that 1,25(OH)2D3 and retinol are consumed in this process so more will be needed to maintain this cell function.

So there you have it... How to build a Swiss watch when you only wanted the time...

The takeaway is simple, we need all the vitamin D3 cofactors...

Hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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GracieH
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #51 - Jun 2nd, 2014 at 8:22am
 
Returning to the board after many years. Getting my butt kicked by new cycle. I am jumping up and down with joy to see this new regime! I already know that I am very low on Vitamin D and magnesium. So I think I have some hope!  Writing down all the ingredients right now. I had started taking Vitamen D2 though and not D3.  What is the main difference? Do I need both?  Or just one!  Cheesy. God bless this board
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #52 - Jun 2nd, 2014 at 1:18pm
 
Hey Gracie,

Good question...  The biggest difference between vitamin D3 and vitamin D2 is the human body produces it's own vitamin D3 and there are hundreds of biological processes that depend on vitamin D3 in ample quantities...

Supplemental vitamin D3 is available over the counter without prescription.  It's also distilled from animal fatty acids.

Vitamin D2 is primarily synthesized in a lab...  Here in the US it's only available by prescription...

There are several studies that show vitamin D3 is 30% to 60% more effective than vitamin D2 in treating medical conditions due to a vitamin D deficiency.  You can read more about why you should be taking vitamin D3 and not D2 at the following VitaminDwiki link:

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Here's the latest list of supplements and doses used in the anti-inflammatory regimen along with a photo of the supplements I take:

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The Mature Multi contains the rest of the vitamin D3 cofactors shown in the table above.  Not shown in this photo is the vitamin B 50 recommended by Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD.  She's a neurologist in Tyler, TX who suggests a 3-month course of vitamin B 50 to take care of any possible B vitamin deficiencies... 

Dr. Gominak has been treating her patients with sleep, chronic pain and headache disorders for over 6 years with a regimen very similar to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  The only real difference is she adds the 3-month course of vitamin B 50.

Vitamin B 50 is a formulation of all seven B vitamins at 50 mg each plus 400 mg of Folic acid.

Many CH'ers have found the following vitamin D3 loading schedule elevates their 25(OH)D serum concentration and achieves a pain free response a lot faster than taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... 

Take the complete anti-inflammatory regime with 10,000 IU/day vitamin d3 on the first day.  As long as you don't experience an allergic reaction (very rare) to the vitamin D3, proceed with the loading schedule.

The vitamin D3 loading schedule calls for 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for two weeks plus a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week during the first two weeks.

Take 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for the next two weeks then drop the vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day. 

This loading schedule totals 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 over the 4-week schedule.  I know that sounds like a lot of vitamin D3, but it averages out to a little over 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3... 

Our skin can make that much vitamin D3 with a 30 minute exposure to the UVB in direct sunlight at mid day if clad in a bathing suit without any sun block.

This vitamin D3 loading schedule should result in a 25(OH)D response of 60 ng/mL above the starting serum concentration by the end of the 4th week. 

Be sure to see your PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test at that point.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2014 at 11:58am by Batch »  

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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #53 - Jun 2nd, 2014 at 1:53pm
 
Thank you Batch!  I just got back from Vitamin Shoppe with everything. I printed out your chart showing all the ingredients and how much. Took it as you noted in post above with my lunch, which included some bacon.  Grin  I used to be helped alot by kudzu, but that apparently is no longer working for me.  SInce I know I am low in D, then this makes a LOT of sense.  You are so very helpful. I have been reading like crazy here.  Cool  I also printed off the chart showing how long it typically takes for effect, so I plan to keep using my ice cube on my ear bump to keep the headaches down as much as I can until then.  I have no idea WHY that works.  And why the ice has to be on THAT spot.  But it usually helps knock it out faster.
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #54 - Jun 2nd, 2014 at 4:04pm
 
All lined up and ready to go!
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #55 - Jun 3rd, 2014 at 12:43pm
 
Gracie,

Looks like you're off to a great start on the anti-inflammatory regimen...  I'm confident you'll have a favorable response.

Regarding the ice cube...  I'm very familiar with it and called it acu-ice...  The only difference is I placed a single ice cube wrapped in a damp paper towel on top of my head, just off center on the hit side on a line above the front of the ear.

I did some research on why this works...  It turns out there are branches of the occipital nerve and one other nerve that are affected during a CH attack.  Chilling them and the capillaries that feed them triggers vasoconstriction which reduces pain transmission.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2014 at 12:44pm by Batch »  

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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #56 - Jun 3rd, 2014 at 1:22pm
 
Well how "cool" is that! No pun intended Batch.  I can now just say that my ice cube is acu-ice, so deal with it!  Grin
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #57 - Jun 5th, 2014 at 1:17pm
 
Hi Batch!

Well, yes, your explanation is too complex and i don't feel like my doubts have been answered so, I'll try to be clearer. These are my levels:

                          15/4/14        22/5/14
calcidiol 25-h            98,4              95,5
calcitriol 1,25D           62.8              126,6

1. Why has the calcitriol increased but not the calcidiol?
2. One month ago, I still wasn't pain free as I am now (for the time being, fingers crossed), the makes me think that the real helper is calcitriol.
3. Despite its safeness, if there was a toxicity problem it would be related to calcium, right? So, if I have a calcium level of 96, am I safe?
4. Is it ok to take 5000 IU of vit A daily? Any risks?

Thank you again!!!
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #58 - Jun 5th, 2014 at 4:09pm
 
Visperas,

Glad to hear the anti-inflammatory regimen is preventing your CH... and sorry my last explanation wasn't clear.

Regarding your questions... Under normal conditions, in the endocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism where calcidiol, [25(OH)D] is metabolized in the kidneys calcitriol, [1,25(OH)2D3] is controlled by a complex set of biological mechanisms involving the parathyroid hormone (PTH) to ensure an optimum level of serum calcium.

A slight dip in serum calcium (within the normal calcium reference range) is all it takes to stimulate calcitriol production in the kidneys.  Accordingly, you'll need to track total calcium serum concentration and serum PTH with lab tests to see their relationship with serum calcitriol.

Serum levels of calcitriol produced along the endocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism can clearly help prevent the incidence of CH. 

That said, the autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism where calcidiol is metabolized within the nerve and other types of cells throughout the body at the nuclear and genetic level to calcitriol.  This process triggers genetic expression and consumes the calcitriol so it never reenters the blood stream.  Calcidiol, vitamin A (retinol) and magnesium are the primary reagents in the process we think down-regulates CGRP and in the process, prevents CH.

Vitamin D3 intoxication is very rare at the doses we take to control CH.  It would take 50,000 IU or more for several months to overload the 1,25(OH)2D3 control mechanisms and this would likely take 25(OH)D serum concentrations well above 200 ng/mL (closer to 300 ng/mL 25(OH)D).

There are exceptions... If the parathyroids are hyperactive (hyperparathyroidism) where too much PTH is produced, this can trigger an uncontrolled metabolism of 25(OH)D, (calcidiol) to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol). 

This excess calcitriol would then pull too much calcium from the gut and bones causing serum calcium concentrations to exceed the normal reference range. This is how a vitamin D3 intoxication is determined...

A vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day is very safe...  Your skin can make that much in as little as 10 minutes exposure to mid day sun clad in a bathing suit without sun block.

The average normal 25(OH)D response to a 5000 IU dose of vitamin D3 is a serum concentration of 60 ng/mL.  While this may prevent some CH, a serum concentration this low leaves no reserves for other consumers of 25(OH)D like your immune system...  See the following chart:

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Exposure to virus, bacteria or even allergens (this happens all the time) can trigger an immune response that will suck up available 25(OH)D leaving not enough to prevent CH... 

Accordingly, CH'ers are better off taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to maintain an average 25(OH)D serum concentration at 80 ng/mL...

I hope this answers the mail...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2014 at 12:28pm by Batch »  

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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #59 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 7:26am
 
Well after 7 nights of 3-4 headaches per night with little sleep, last night was a nice break. Just 2 milder shorter headaches. I figure I got 5 straight hours of sleep!  Wooooooo hoooooo!   Does this regime work that fast?  Or just lucky?  Can I keep taking some kudzu with this too? Or not good idea.
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #60 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 8:24am
 
For some it works even faster! I'm 4 years pain free on this regimen after over 30 years of episodic CH, I stay on a maintenance regimen permanently now, 5000 D-3 a day in addition to the other "stuff" Batch recommends. My wife and I get giddy when we talk about how simple it's been to remove a beast from our lives that seemed to run our marriage for so many years. Hoping it does the same for you.

Joe

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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #61 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 9:48am
 
What about the vitA, is it safe to take 5000 IU daily?
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #62 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 10:38am
 
Guiseppi, that is awesome! I kinda figured that I was so low on D3 that it would take a while longer.  I am hoping this will follow the curve of effect that I have seen above. I feel so much better just getting 5 hours of sleep!  My two dogs that sleep with me are also happy not to be interrupted in their sleep as I get up, get an ice cube and pace a bit till it goes away.   SmileyI am rooting for EVERYONE that has the beast to find help with this treatment plan, which is so much less risky than some of the drugs the neuros often push on you.
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #63 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 12:37pm
 
Vispares,

The U.S. recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for adults is as follows: 900 micrograms daily (3,000 IU) for men and 700 micrograms daily (2,300 IU) for women... 

We're using it to prevent CH...  That appears to require a slightly higher dose.  5000 IU of vitamin A (retinol) or retinol equivalents should be very safe...

I say this as people with a vitamin A deficiency have been given at a daily dose of 100,000 IU by mouth or intramuscularly for three days, followed by 50,000 IU daily for two weeks. After two weeks, daily doses of 10,000-20,000 IU have been given for two months. In mothers six weeks after childbirth, either 400,000 IU of vitamin A (in two doses separated by 24 hours) or 200,000 IU as one dose (plus placebo 24 hours later) has been taken.

See the following ling for more details:

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Take care,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2014 at 12:38pm by Batch »  

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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #64 - Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:49pm
 
Thanx! You're great!!
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Reply #65 - Jun 7th, 2014 at 7:32am
 
Good morning!  Just one minor headache at 12:30 am! 6 straight hours of sleep! Woooooooooo hoooooooo!  We are on the way.  I cannot thank you enough. 
I have been reading most if this post going all the way back to the beginning. I am a learning sponge and took lots of notes. Going to start eating more alkaline foods and less that produce body acid. I always knew there had to be a good excuse to eat more watermelon!   Cheesy

I do have a question about how sleep cycle fits into this. Most of my cycles have kicked off when something got me out of my regular routine. I assume that when that happens it affects us CH folks in a way that throws off our PH? Or it is some other effect? 
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« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2014 at 11:26am by GracieH »  
 
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #66 - Jun 7th, 2014 at 1:07pm
 
Hey Gracie,

Watch Dr. Stasha Gominak's videos at the following link...  She explains sleep, why quality sleep is very important and why we need vitamin D3, the cofactors and a 3-month course of vitamin B 50.

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Take care

V/R Batch
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You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #67 - Jun 9th, 2014 at 11:26am
 
What the hell is the photo that appeared in my post above??   Never saw that photo and did not upload it. UGH!  It was supposed to be my two dogs with a THANK YOU.  So I deleted the bizarre photo. 

ANYWAY, I am kind of stuck at 1 or 2 minor headaches at 12:30 am and then about 4:30 am.   But having faith that things will get better!
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« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2014 at 11:27am by GracieH »  
 
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #68 - Jun 9th, 2014 at 12:51pm
 
Gracie,

Thanks for the update...  I understand the frustration that you're not completely pain free.  It's only been a week since you started the anti-inflammatory regimen and you've already experienced a favorable response with a reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH...

I'm confident, with a little more time, your CH symptoms will continue to decrease until you're pain free.  Once you've been taking this regimen for a month, try to see your PCP for another lab test for 25(OH)D. After that, the best course of action is to continue taking this regimen year-round at a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #69 - Jun 11th, 2014 at 9:31am
 
Boogers. Yesterday was a step backwards. I took the dogs for a walk about 7:30 pm and it was still pretty hot outside. I ended up with minor headache at 8 pm and then had 2 mild ones at 11 pm and 1 am.  UGH.  Not sure why this happened.
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #70 - Jun 13th, 2014 at 9:12pm
 
Last night was pain free!!! Wooooooo hooooooo.  And no shadows today. Here's hoping that this is the home stretch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #71 - Jun 14th, 2014 at 8:16am
 
congratulations GracieH   
may it continue for you

regards
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