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Noob on D3 (Read 17701 times)
Visperas
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Noob on D3
Feb 11th, 2014 at 7:32am
 
Hi all!

I've recently had a blood test done and asked for VitD levels since I had read a bit about the D3 regimen. The test says I curently have 10,4 ng/mL. Apparently this is a very low vitD level so I've decided to try the D3 regimen and see if it works.

I have the full list of substances to take: Omega3, vitD, calcium, magnesium, vitK2, vitA, zinc and boron but I wonder if I need to take all of them to be PF. I've also read here about calcium potentially causing more pain and I'd obviously like to avoid it.
Today, I'll go to a pharmacy to check on the prices and availability of these substances in my city and probably will have more questions by then. Thanx!!
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2014 at 7:33am by Visperas »  
 
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Emjay
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #1 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 7:42am
 
A good multivitamin might give you some of the regimen.  I use the 50+ mini-tablets by Rainbow Light and I get the Vit A, Zinc, and some of the K.  I have had success (before going off and then re-establishing is a *$#@*).  Boron is "new" since I started and can be acquired with a tablespoon of honey. Otherwise, the rest of the regimen is pretty easy to get (in the US) and effective!  Didn't your doctor put you on a loading dose of the D?
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Visperas
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #2 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 8:10am
 
I'm not from the US but I don't think the vitamins will be difficult to get, maybe expensive.
The daily boron dose (1mg/day i believe) can be acquired with a tablespoon of honey? That's one thing less to buy! Good!
Yes, the doctor told me to buy some VitD mini bottles that I'm supposed to take every 15 days but I think I'll need something more regular, something daily, to beat the beast.
Also, Emjay, what do you mean with "before going off and then re-establishing is a *$#@*"? Is it hard to make it work and difficult to do that again after some time without the vits? Don't you take vitD on top of those tablets you mention?
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2014 at 8:11am by Visperas »  
 
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Emjay
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #3 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 9:36am
 
I was on the full regimen since last June and totally "missed" my fall episode!  I am usually dancing with the beast from the end of January through June, then the end of August through the beginning of November.  So to miss a season is fabulous!  However, when I was tested for my D level, it was 187ng!  So, I stupidly listened to my doctor and stopped the D3 completely while staying on the rest of the regimen.  Exactly 2 weeks off, the beast returned in full force.  I am back on the D3 but getting myself back into whatever my sweet zone is has been challenging.  I have been working closely with Batch and he has been enormously helpful!  I am not going off this regimen again!  I'll titrate down if I have to, but not off.  I had a blood test yesterday and I will see what it is and then decide what needs to be done.  For me, this regimen has been a blessing.  It is worth whatever the "expense" is!  Plus, the side effects of more energy, less systemic inflammation, and all the bennies that come with no hits cannot be discarded!
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maz
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #4 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 9:48am
 
Hi visperas
Here in the UK it's very difficult to get the high doses of vitD3. You would have to take bottles of the stuff to get the recommended dose and no one could afford that.
I get what I need from iherb.com. Very reasonably priced and reliable. If you are not in the USA you may have to pay for customs and duty depending on the value of your order, so check that out first.
Maz.
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Visperas
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #5 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 10:06am
 
Thank you Maz and Emjay!

As expected, the trip to the pharmacy has created some more questions. Despite its availability, it's not that easy to find the specific substances in their specific measure. For instance, there's a pill that includes VitA-800mcg, Zinc-10mg, vitK (not K2), vitD (not D3) and magnesium (non of the specific magneisums listed). Could i take that one plus D3, K2 and magnesium citrate? Besides VitD3, what are the most important substances in the regimen?
Maybe, as Batch did in his first try, I can take only the fish oil and the VitD3 and work from there if it doesn't work?
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2014 at 12:26pm by Visperas »  
 
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Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #6 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 2:26pm
 
Hey Visperas,

Welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Good questions and I understand obtaining some of the nutrients in this regimen can be difficult for CH'ers not living in the US.

Let's start with the vitamin D3.  If there's any question as to what's available is vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) or vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol)...  buy the cholecalciferol in the highest concentration (strength) possible. 

Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) is much less effective in preventing cluster headache than vitamin D3. 

We've had a few chronic CH'ers take vitamin D prescribed by their PCP and it ended up being vitamin D2 - (ergocalciferol). When they were unable to achieve a pain free response after several weeks taking vitamin D2 they stopped taking it and purchased some 5,000 IU vitamin D3 capsules...  Two days later they experienced a pain free response...

In many countries, 400 IU vitamin D3 liquid soft gel capsules is the highest concentration you can buy off the shelf without a prescription.  Taking 25 of these a day is a pain...  Get a prescription...

One of the exciting things about vitamin D3 is you can take 10,000 IU of vitamin D3 every day, 70,000 IU once a week, or 280,000 IU once a month and you should get nearly the same resulting 25(OH)D response.

If the pharmacy only has vials of vitamin D3 make sure it says "cholecalciferol."  Ask the pharmacist "What is the total International Units (IU) of cholecalciferol in the vial?"

If the total amount of vitamin D3 in the vile is 300,000 IU, divide by 10,000 IU/day and you get 30 days...  That means you can safely take the contents of the vial every 30 days.

Some vials of vitamin D3 have the contents measured by weight... usually in micrograms abbreviated as mcg or µg. In this case 250 micrograms = 10,000 IU of vitamin D3.

Some liquid vitamin D3 preparations the dose is listed as IU/drop as illustrated in the photo below where one drop = 2000 IU of vitamin D3:

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The bottom line is talk with the pharmacist to ensure you know how much vitamin D3 you'll be taking by serving size and that you need 10,000 IU/day, 70,000 IU/week or 280,000 IU every four weeks.

The other important thing to do is ask your PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test after a month taking the vitamin D3.

The alternative to the above process of obtaining vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) from a pharmacist is to order the nutrients from over the Internet.  The following photo illustrates the nutrients, I take each day to prevent my CH:

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As far as the minimum supplements to take if you can't find all of them... take the vitamin D3, Omega-3 Fish Oil, magnesium, vitamin K2 (MK-7), zinc and a good multi-vitamin...  preferably one for seniors.

You're correct, a teaspoon of raw honey a day will provide the needed boron.  Most multivitamins for seniors contain boron and vitamin A.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

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Visperas
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #7 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 3:04pm
 
Thank you very much for the reply Batch!!
I'm going to think about it, check prices both on the internet and the pharmacy and decide what to do. As soon as I've decided I'll let you know.
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Chuffy
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #8 - Feb 11th, 2014 at 6:45pm
 
@max
I live in the UK and you can get high dose D3 and Super K on Amazon.co.uk.
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thierry
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #9 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 4:17am
 
Hi Batch, thank you for posting the photo of what you take for the regimen.
I see that the Kirkland Mature Multi contains just 220mg of Calcium, is that enough Calcium? I thought that you recommended 500mg calcium for the regimen.
All the best  Smiley
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Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #10 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 4:57pm
 
Thierry,

The latest regimen update will call for 220 to 500 mg/day calcium... 

I'm a cheese head so go through a lot of cheese a week along with a serving or two of salmon, a daily glass of orange juice, and lots of dark green veggies.  I also go through nearly a pound of mixed nuts a week for snacks and an occasional serving of ice cream, so my intake of dietary calcium is likely a little higher than most.

Accordingly, 220 mg/day calcium is a good supplemental level to bring me up to the calcium RDA of 1000 mg/day.

Hope this helps.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2014 at 4:57pm by Batch »  

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thierry
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #11 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 4:24pm
 
wow Batch, that's a very healthy diet you're on, sounds great. I wish I was as discipline as you are reagarding what I eat. I ought to make more of an effort, though I am doing all right and do not eat fast food at all
Thanks for the info too.
Wishing you and yours a great weekend.
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Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #12 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 5:14pm
 
Hey Thierry,

We just finished a delightful block of Dubliner chedder...  so I know you've got some fine cheese there in Ireland...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #13 - Feb 15th, 2014 at 3:08pm
 
Is there any way to get this supplement list stickied? I think it would be helpful.
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Visperas
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #14 - Feb 17th, 2014 at 3:51pm
 
Hi all!

Today I've started the D3 regimen with the following:

- 12000 IU of Vit D3 (it's 4000 each pill)
- 1000 mg of Omega3 Oil 350EPA 250DHA
- 120 mcg of VitK2
- 400 mg of Magnesium Citrate
-a pill of Multicentrum Select 50+

I'm still thinking about making it two D3 pills making 8000 IU or if it will be needed to adjust the quantity to 1000 IU doing two and a half pills. Well, I guess there's not much else to say, we'll see how it goes.
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Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #15 - Feb 17th, 2014 at 4:49pm
 
Hey Visperas.

Thanks for the headzup you've started the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Good move... I'm confident you'll find it effective in preventing your CH

12,000 IU/day is fine, but your starting 25(OH)D serum concentration was very low at 10.4 ng/mL. You can safely take an average dose of 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for 30 days to build your 25(OH)D more rapidly as that will lead to a faster preventative response.

The alternative is the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule that works out to 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 over a 4 week period.  This accelerated dosing schedule calls for 20,000 IU/day for two weeks.

During that first two weeks you'll take a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.  For the second two weeks take 16,000 IU/day.  At the end of this 4-week dosing schedule, see your PCP for another 25(OH)D lab test. 

Your 25(OH)D response should be an average of 60 ng/mL above your starting serum concentration around 70 ng/mL...  At that point you should be able to drop your vitamin D3 intake to 12,000 IU/day.

See the attached study:

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there
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Visperas
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #16 - Feb 19th, 2014 at 9:12am
 
Ok. I've increased the D3 take to 20000IU and will keep it like that for a month.
Also, what's the average response time to the regimen for those who found it helpful?
Thanx for everything Batch!
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #17 - Feb 19th, 2014 at 3:19pm
 
Hey Visperas,

Good question.  The following chart will give you an indication of response times to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  It's based on data collected in the online survey of 110 CH'ers taking this regimen.

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The next chart illustrates the advantage of the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule in elevating 25(OH)D much faster than at a vitamin D3 intake of 10,000 IU/day.

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The solid black curve represents the average 25(OH)D response to a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day.  As you can see this curve flattens out and reached a stable serum concentration around 80 ng/mL, but that can take 4 to 6 months.

The green curve approximates the 25(OH)D response to the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule totaling 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 over 4 weeks.  This loading schedule elevates serum 25(OH)D an average of 60 ng/mL above the starting 25(OH)D serum concentration in 4 weeks.

The rationale for maintaining a 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL when it's clear most CH'ers experience a pain free response in less time and at lower 25(OH)D serum concentrations, is based on the need to establish a safe 25(OH)D reserve.  This extra 25(OH)D acts as reserve to maintain a CH preventative response when competing 25(OH)D consumers are present and for skipped/missed doses of vitamin D3. 

Our immune system is likely the single largest consumer of 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)D2D3, the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite.  The immune system is active 7/24 and most of it resides in the GI tract and respiratory system, the two areas of the body exposed to the highest concentrations of antigens, allergens and pollutants.

Viral infections like colds and flu trigger an immune system response that consumes 25(OH)D at higher rates.  Trauma from injuries or surgery result in inflammation that can also consume 25(OH)D.  Allergic reactions to foods and allergens also trigger an immune response.  If one or more of the above conditions exist, the 25(OH)D serum concentration starts dropping.

The bottom line is a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day is necessary to maintain an average 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL.  You’ll know when other 25(OH)D consumers are present…  You’ll feel the beast lurking around or it may even make a call…  Although the incidence of colds and flu are reduced while taking this regimen, they still occur.  When they do and you start feeling the symptoms of an approaching cold or flu…  double the daily vitamin D3 intake and add a 50,000 IU loading dose.  That should keep the CH beast away from your door.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

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« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2014 at 3:19pm by Batch »  

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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #18 - Feb 24th, 2014 at 11:02am
 
I started the D3 regimen on the 17th. That day and the next I only took 12000 IU of D3 vit, each day since I've taken the 20000 IU plus all the other substances and I haven't felt an improvement in my CH. If anything it might have worsen a little bit. Before starting it I had two-three attacks per day, these last week I've had three-four attacks per day.
According to one of Batch's graph, most people felt an improvement over the three first days so I'm feeling a little down. I've still got some hope but... well, what do I do?
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #19 - Feb 24th, 2014 at 11:25am
 
Visperas..do not get discouraged! It took me a few weeks to go PF while I adjusted my doses.They would get worse, then get better. Not everyone goes PF in a week...everyone's body reacts to the regimen differently. I'm sure Batch will chime in soon with some encouragement and ideas!

Judy
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #20 - Feb 24th, 2014 at 6:38pm
 
It took me almost a month.  Batch is awesome with responding, tweaking, and working with you.  Don't let the discouragement get to you.  In the mean time, use O2 if you have it.  I added energy drinks with taurine & caffeine and use at first twinge.
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #21 - Feb 24th, 2014 at 11:36pm
 
Hey Visperas,

No need to feel left out... 50% of the CH'ers who respond to this regimen take more than a week.  One of the best indications of how long it takes to respond is knowing the results of your 25(OH)D lab test.  With your 25(OH)D serum concentration in hand, we can make a more informed estimate on response times...  Without it... we're shooting in the dark.

As far as what to try next... skip the calcium for a few weeks... but keep taking every thing else...  If you respond like the other CH'ers who experienced an up-tic in the frequency of their CH after starting this regimen, you should start experiencing a reduction in the frequency of your CH in 24 to 36 hours.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #22 - Feb 25th, 2014 at 4:37am
 
Hi. Im new to this site but had cluster for 20 years now. I started the regime for 1,5 month ago as i was low as well in my D3, But I am only on omega, d3 calcium and magnesium. I dont dare to take the K2 because I dont know how I will increase the risk of trombosis when I am on contraceptions as well and allready sk at risk. any one has more information about this. ???
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Visperas
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #23 - Feb 25th, 2014 at 9:49am
 
So, should I have another blood test done? Specifically asking for 25(OH)D ? The thing is I had one not too long ago and I don't know if the insurance will pay for another test. Anyway, if it's important to have it I'll see what I can do.
As I said in a previous post this is what I've been taking:
- 20000 IU of Vit D3 (it's 4000 each pill)
- 1000 mg of Omega3 Oil 350EPA 250DHA
- 120 mcg of VitK2
- 400 mg of Magnesium Citrate
-a pill of Multicentrum Select 50+

Every pill of multicentrum has 162 mg of Calcium so, that's what I'm going to cut from the regimen starting today. Let's see how it goes.
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Re: Noob on D3
Reply #24 - Feb 25th, 2014 at 11:06am
 
Hi Visperas, I am not Batch and don't have anywhere near the knowledge he has but i know that he recommends 400mg calcium,  although he does tell some people at times to stop calcium for a couple of weeks. Anyway the multicentrum gives you 164mg calcium so i don't see the need to stop taking it unless he has told you to stop calcium for a while. Also if you stop Multicentrum you won't get the Zinc, Boron and vitamin A so you might need to take those separately. Batch also recommends 2000mg omega 3 fish oil.
He also recommends a lot more than 120mcg of k2, I can' t remember right now how much but i think he talks extensively about this on the last page or 2 of the "123 days pain free, and i think i know why" thread.
All the best
Smiley
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« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2014 at 11:08am by thierry »  
 
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