Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

I have a question about it... if they were serving a search warrant - WHY didn't they just knock on the damn door and show it to the people instead of running aound outside with guns?

It was daylight - the oldest kid was in school .. what's the problem with knocking on the door?

My first instinct, if I saw people running around outside my house, would be to grab a gun and find out WHY.

From what I've read, it's up in the air if even had a reason to suspect him (his brother and cousin yes, but nothing on him). 25 year Marine - 2 tours of duty in Iraq... makes one wonder.. could it have been his "name"?

Personally, I think the Sheriff's office needs to be investigated a little more in this case.

Just my opinion..

Drugs and drug gangs members moving quantities are very dangerous busts.  Because of the nature of value, whether drugs or money, pretty vast protection is involved, meaning guns, coupled with a certain desperation. 

The law enforcement members who make up these teams are some gung ho cowboys sometimes, the ones who want to be first through the door.  When they do, you're on the floor with a gun to your head in seconds.  It's all action. 

If this was the suspected scenario, a gun branished is a hyper situation, and fast acting. 

In this case the story gets mucky, he shot first, then his gun was on safety.  Then said someone tripped and they thought he was shot.  Who knows, could be how the Boston Massacre started.  ( John Adams in fact defended the Brits)

He's a former long time marine with a sterling reputation, but possibly had another side.

All I can say is that if this was a bust, it is sudden, focused, and powerfully penetrating when it happens.  I've been there twice (many years ago).

Also, a friend had what I think was Customs and ATF do the same thing for US/Canada dealing.  A team flew up the driveway with kids playing and mom outside.  Intense.



As to the number of shots, that can happen too in the height of disaster.  My girlfriend's son went through the Selfridge Air National Guard Base, supposedly unauthorized entry at a tense time, right after 9/11, and did not stop when motioned to do so.  Seventeen of over thirty shots hit him. 

I only bring this up because it is another heightened situation scenario causing instant reaction.

Despite the mindset in the situation of the individuals shooting, it may be this case will have to go to appeal.

Correction noted - maybe he was 25 when he got out - I just read that wrong I guess.. I did wonder what he was doing with two kids that small...

I just think there's too many "maybe's" in this one.

There's a thing sometimes called "Scenario Fulfilment."

Young gun ho men now and then react carelessly since the militarization of police, largely caused by the supposed drug war. In the military, hopefully, well-trained officers have the say, not a SWAT team leader. Restraint isn't what comes first to mind. Too much hardware that is too easy to use.

Charlie

I have hesitated to comment on this thread for a number of reasons, foremost being I wasn't there. I will answer a few questions as best I can based on MY experiences:

The number of shots is not excessive. When we shoot, we shoot to kill. The .40 I carried held 17 rounds. The ones swat carries can be set to single fire, 3 round bursts or fully auto. The AR-15 the swat officer carried was undoubtedly set to auto or at least 3 round bursts, based on the info they had this guy was some kind of an enforcer.  (based on what my department used)

We do not shoot twice and see if we hit someone. We fire until he goes down. Cops in that situation are no different then soldiers on combat. When someone points a gun like that at you, you are more frightened then you ever imagined possible. In a thousandth of a second the round with YOUR name on it might be coming out.

On high profile narcotics warrants, we don't politely knock on the door regardless of the time of day. Dopers arm themselves heavily, are paranoid as hell, and drugs get flushed down the toilet in seconds on a drug raid. We typically position one cop by each bathroom window with instructions to break the window and beat the dopers away from the toilet as we hit the front door.

Before you rush to his defense based only on the fact he served his country, I've known enough bad cops, bad soldiers, bad priests, bad basketball coaches......to know that being the member of an exclusive fraternity, no matter how high the fraternitys' morals and ideals may be, does not preclude you from being a monster in sheeps uniform. I am in no way bashing ANY of these professions, being an ex cop and a HUGE supporter of the military, just saying the fact you served does NOT give you a free pass for life. 

It's good to discuss cases like this. Keep the heat on all involved, force them to justify all of their actions. Don't forget, a magistrate signed a search warrant based on an affidavit sworn out to him/her. That needs to be investigated to confirm where their information came from.

Rush to judgements, regardless of the side you are on, rarely produces a fair/impartial verdict.

I'm hoping for the best, while always cognizant mistakes do get made.

Joe

(who is so glad he's retired! )

Thanks, Jezep,

That is how it be.

I agree.

Thanks Joe,

You answered a couple of questions for me in that I know all departments arm their men differently.  My son's .40 only holds 9 rounds, but it is his backup gun.  In Aurora (Kane County SWAT) the SWAT team does not carry a fully auto AR 15.  It is semi-auto only.  They do have a full auto weapon for stand off type situations, but for a Search Warrant raid they cannot go full auto.  I only know this because I've participated in some of their training acting as either a perp or a hostage.  Those guys all have my highest respect, and I meant none in my questions.  The story just did not match up with my limited experience.

Jerry

I agree Jimi.  I also know how the reporting on things goes up this way.  I always discount about 90% and question the rest.  I will be watching with interest what happens.

jc