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Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil? (Read 8380 times)
Stymie
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Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Jun 21st, 2011 at 2:54am  
Hi all:

Though not a regular contributor I have been referring to this site and the Message Board especially for great insight and advice over the years.

I am back in one of my episodes.  I've started the usual regimen of verapamil, O2 and melatonin (which after years of trial and error seems to work best).

This time I have also been using taurine, that is to say Red Bull.  I have to say...wow!  It works much better than O2 for me as an abortive.  I tend to have only a max. 50% success rate with O2, and it tends to often just "delay" the attack plus if I'm already 10 minutes or so into the attack, O2 rarely helps. 

With Red Bull, at least so far, I have been amazed.  Even last night, with a level 8 or so hit, and well into the attack, I chugged one down and in 5 minutes was PF.

I've noted some references to the potential dangers of combining tourine with verapamil.  Seems the "rule of thumb" is max. 1 drink (or 1000mg taurine) per day if using verapamil too.  But after extensive search of the medical literature, I cant find much at all in terms of actual research on this (other than some studies on rats).   

They told us years ago to be careful with high dose verapamil too, in terms of heart issues.  But as it turns out it seems very few have any major problems, certainly not compared to the benefits, and what problems they may have usually dissipate after the episode ends (of course there are exceptions..).  I am all for being prudent, but with my 2-3 hits per day I would really like to up the Red Bull.

So my questions:

1. Have any of you actually had a medical problem identified, heart or otherwise, from taking taurine and verapamil together?
2. Do any of you exceed the "rule of thumb" for taurine? (I'm guessing, if it happens to work for some like it does for me, the answer must be yes).  And if so, any noticeable side effects e.g heart palpitations, arrrythymia etc.
3.  Am I missing something in terms of actual published, peer-reviewed research that demonstrates a severe, or potentially severe, impact of taurine/verapamil cocktail on humans??  For me,its always a question of things being relevant...for example, we know already that triptans can have some potentially serious side effects (plus there is a lot "they" admittedly do not know about triptan's long-term impacts on nuerological and other functions.  YET...some clusterheads use it regularly (understandably, if it works for them..).   For triptans though it seems the recommended daily limited has some scientific underpinnings and research behind it.  I'm not sure if same can be said for the taurine "rule of thumb".

In my own case, my heart rate has always been a bit on the high side (72), so I think the issue of getting too low a heartrate is probably a none-starter for me.  The only definitive evidence I found was that taurine (alone) in high doses is not as bad as people once thought.

I'd ask my doctor but honestly, while he is a good man, I know more about CH than he does.  I'm trained in science and know how to do a search for medical and other research papers...I just cant find anything conclusive so far that would sway me from taking that 2nd Red Bull.  At least until my cycle (as typically) starts to produce less intense hits (usually after 4 weeks).

Appreciate your feedback and comments on your experiences..and wishing you the best and PFDs.
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Stymie
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #1 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:03am  
PS.  I'm 2 weeks into my episode and so maybe the verapamil will start to take hold soon.  Usually it helps reduce the 2-3 hits/day to only 1 (or sometimes none)...but so far in this episode, the hits are still a-coming.  Certainly if the Verapamil starts to work as usual, then max. 1 Red Bull a day would be enough.  But meanwhile...
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #2 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:25am  
Stymie,

Off hand I'd guess your oxygen flow rate is too low.  Effective oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation requires a minimum flow rate of 25 liters/minute.  Many of us who use this method of oxygen therapy use even higher flow rates.

At a flow rate of 25 liters/minute, your aborts should take on average, 7 minutes for CH attacks between 3 and 9 on the 10-Point headache pain scale. 

There's a direct relationship between time to abort and CH pain level.  For example a level 3 CH will take three minutes to abort with this method of oxygen therapy and a level 7 CH will take eight to nine minutes to abort.

At flow rates of 15 liters/minute or less with any physical activity like rocking back and forth or pacing in circles, the physical activity will cause a build up of CO2 levels that the lung ventilation at this flow rate will be unable to lower.  As CO2 is a more powerful vasodilator than oxygen is as a vasoconstrictor, an abort at this flow rate will be difficult at best.

Many of us have found the anti-inflammatory regimen of 3000 mg. Omega 3 Fish Oil, 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3, and 500 mg. calcium (two calcium citrate tablets formulated with calcium citrate, 800 I.U. vitamin D3, 80 mg. magnesium and 10 mg. zinc each day is very effective as a preventative.  80% of the CH'ers who have tried this regimen have reported a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH or they've gone into a pain free CH remission.

All this with no adverse side effects and this is a healthy regimen for the heart, vascular system and bones.

Take a look at the following link.  It will take you to a post I started in December titled: 123 Days PF and I Think I Know Why"

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

This post has been viewed over 10,000 times since I put it up last December.  Be sure to read all 10 pages to see comments from the folks who have given it a try.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #3 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:30am  
The taurine in Red Bull and verapamil are both calcium channel antagonists, so by consuming Red Bull you're effectively increasing the effect of the verapamil.

I've limited myself to one a day when on a maximum of 480mg of verapamil. I've not seen any specific guidelines on the maximum of both should be, so I'm probably being prudent.
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #4 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 4:18am  
Hi Stymie & Welcome

Think of Taurine as a Turbo charger, it accelerates the effect of any med it's mixed with.

I don't take any of the heavier meds, preferring to stay with Magnesium,Calcium & vit D3 but can use the Taurine to speed up the effect of those vitamins.

Cheers
Barry
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #5 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 10:33am  
Hi Batch and thanks.  You're right, well mostly.  I live in Hanoi, VN (for 7 years) and it is impossible (after trying in vain last episode and again this time, just for fun...) to get anything over a 15 lpm regulator here.  I was surprised enough I was able to find O2.  Many on this site have commented about how rare this condition is and how its tough enough to get medical people, including oxygen suppliers, to understand our needs....in Hanoi imagine that problem but times ten.   They consider it completely a pulmonary issue or whatever else they are used to dealing with.  I may well be the first clusterhead treated with O2 in Hanoi! Shocked
 

The non rebreather I had to get in Bangkok last time, but at least I have this.

On the plus side, the tank and O2 refills are pretty cheap here.

So I crank my tank up max which I guess is a little over 15.  This seems to generally work well for mild or moderate attacks, but anything over a 7, any kind of "pacer", and its 50-50 really.    But still, better than nothing, and together with the taurine and the verapamil (once it hopefully kicks in more), it hopefully will not be too too bad.  Still turning to the O2 first, and Red Bull second if necessary. 

I'm 43 and have had ECH since I was 21.  I stopped using triptans or ergotamine 3 cycles ago....even if I wanted to use them, I know the nasal or injected triptans are not available here, only the pills i.e. useless.

Re: the supplement cocktail, thanks for this.  I have been for some time now taking daily Fish Oil, D3, magnesium and zinc (started doing this when I had a bout of bad anxiety a year ago, and kept the regimen up).  I also take coenzyme q10, ginko and some days a multiB.  It takes time for the fish oil to show its effect, but all in all I feel its working well for me.  It doesnt surprise me folks have success with this.   I'll check out the link some more, cheers.

Stymie

Batch wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:25am:
Stymie,

Off hand I'd guess your oxygen flow rate is too low.  Effective oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation requires a minimum flow rate of 25 liters/minute.  Many of us who use this method of oxygen therapy use even higher flow rates.

At a flow rate of 25 liters/minute, your aborts should take on average, 7 minutes for CH attacks between 3 and 9 on the 10-Point headache pain scale. 

There's a direct relationship between time to abort and CH pain level.  For example a level 3 CH will take three minutes to abort with this method of oxygen therapy and a level 7 CH will take eight to nine minutes to abort.

At flow rates of 15 liters/minute or less with any physical activity like rocking back and forth or pacing in circles, the physical activity will cause a build up of CO2 levels that the lung ventilation at this flow rate will be unable to lower.  As CO2 is a more powerful vasodilator than oxygen is as a vasoconstrictor, an abort at this flow rate will be difficult at best.

Many of us have found the anti-inflammatory regimen of 3000 mg. Omega 3 Fish Oil, 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3, and 500 mg. calcium (two calcium citrate tablets formulated with calcium citrate, 800 I.U. vitamin D3, 80 mg. magnesium and 10 mg. zinc each day is very effective as a preventative.  80% of the CH'ers who have tried this regimen have reported a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH or they've gone into a pain free CH remission.

All this with no adverse side effects and this is a healthy regimen for the heart, vascular system and bones.

Take a look at the following link.  It will take you to a post I started in December titled: 123 Days PF and I Think I Know Why"

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

This post has been viewed over 10,000 times since I put it up last December.  Be sure to read all 10 pages to see comments from the folks who have given it a try.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Stymie
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #6 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 10:59am  
So then its a bit like the same protocols for verapamil/taurine as with high dose verapamil only? .... i.e. keep a careful watch out and maybe get an ecg to monitor if something funky is going on.    I'm only on 360 mg for now but depending on when/if the verapamil really kicks in, I may up this.  360 worked well last cycle but things do change sometimes.  Last time I also used the pred taper, but I hated the side effects (not to mention not digging the "Charlie Brown effect" of my puffed up face..).  Cheers

Mike NZ wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:30am:
The taurine in Red Bull and verapamil are both calcium channel antagonists, so by consuming Red Bull you're effectively increasing the effect of the verapamil.

I've limited myself to one a day when on a maximum of 480mg of verapamil. I've not seen any specific guidelines on the maximum of both should be, so I'm probably being prudent.
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #7 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:00am  
Oops I meant EKG

Stymie wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 10:59am:
So then its a bit like the same protocols for verapamil/taurine as with high dose verapamil only? .... i.e. keep a careful watch out and maybe get an ecg to monitor if something funky is going on.    I'm only on 360 mg for now but depending on when/if the verapamil really kicks in, I may up this.  360 worked well last cycle but things do change sometimes.  Last time I also used the pred taper, but I hated the side effects (not to mention not digging the "Charlie Brown effect" of my puffed up face..).  Cheers

Mike NZ wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:30am:
The taurine in Red Bull and verapamil are both calcium channel antagonists, so by consuming Red Bull you're effectively increasing the effect of the verapamil.

I've limited myself to one a day when on a maximum of 480mg of verapamil. I've not seen any specific guidelines on the maximum of both should be, so I'm probably being prudent.
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #8 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:04am  
When I was on my regular maintenance dose of verapamil (480mg/day), I limited myself to one energy drink with taurine per 24-hour period. The couple of times I went beyond that I could feel my ticker's timing being affected.
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #9 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:12am  
Thanks Barry. 

That is a good way to put it. 

I'm also using supplements and noted the link from Batch...I've practically been taking the same daily cocktail anyway (except not that high D3...wow, 10,000 IU is a lot....is this how much you take as well?)

So far, I'm still willing to take that 2nd Red Bull, but maybe only in extreme emergencies Smiley  I'm confident the verapamil (and maybe too the extra D3) will soon have me where I usually am once "settled" into my cycle...i.e. a couple nasty hits a week but mostly shadows and non-pacer attacks that O2 works well for.   In fact I am starting to sense that I am getting settles into the cycle-within-a-cycle that I tend to have....where things to to run over a week or so then repeat themselves  (There are not many good things about getting older, but certainly for me two are that my remissions get longer and that I am starting to really know and understand the Beast and how he operates).   

I've also noted the comments about using Kudzu.  No supplements here in Hanoi...but Pueraria is everywhere and in fact my mother-in-law eats it all the time (for her heart she says).  I use to ask my wife what the *&^% is that big root sitting in our fridge, whenever she visited :>)  So I've started today using the root grinds in a sort of tea (with lime and sugar). 

Always seem to learn something new every cycle from this board! 

Cheers
Stymie

Barry_T_Coles wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 4:18am:
Hi Stymie & Welcome

Think of Taurine as a Turbo charger, it accelerates the effect of any med it's mixed with.

I don't take any of the heavier meds, preferring to stay with Magnesium,Calcium & vit D3 but can use the Taurine to speed up the effect of those vitamins.

Cheers
Barry

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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #10 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:29am  
Thanks for the feedback Mike, that is useful. I'll keep a watch on things and get back if anything noteworthy develops.  No ticker problems yet.  Hopefully I'll settle into my usual cycle, which is to say a couple bad days/nights a week but the rest tolerable enough, so it wont come to really needing the 2nd Red Bull but we'll see. 

Stymie

Stymie wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:00am:
Oops I meant EKG

Stymie wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 10:59am:
So then its a bit like the same protocols for verapamil/taurine as with high dose verapamil only? .... i.e. keep a careful watch out and maybe get an ecg to monitor if something funky is going on.    I'm only on 360 mg for now but depending on when/if the verapamil really kicks in, I may up this.  360 worked well last cycle but things do change sometimes.  Last time I also used the pred taper, but I hated the side effects (not to mention not digging the "Charlie Brown effect" of my puffed up face..).  Cheers

Mike NZ wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 3:30am:
The taurine in Red Bull and verapamil are both calcium channel antagonists, so by consuming Red Bull you're effectively increasing the effect of the verapamil.

I've limited myself to one a day when on a maximum of 480mg of verapamil. I've not seen any specific guidelines on the maximum of both should be, so I'm probably being prudent.
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #11 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 6:53pm  
Thanks Brew...I'll be keeping a close watch on my ticker.  I'm hoping the verapamil will "kick in" soon and so maybe the Red Bull question will not be as big an issue i.e if I can get down to just one taurine-worthy hit a day. 

I just had a K7 or 8 and 15  minutes into O2 reached for a Red Bull, which again worked its charm w/in 5 minutes.  Makes me wonder if anyone has ever quit the verapamil in order to use taurine in much larger quantities.


   

Brew wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:04am:
When I was on my regular maintenance dose of verapamil (480mg/day), I limited myself to one energy drink with taurine per 24-hour period. The couple of times I went beyond that I could feel my ticker's timing being affected.

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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #12 - Jun 22nd, 2011 at 8:25am  
Quote:
I just had a K7 or 8 and 15  minutes into O2 reached for a Red Bull, which again worked its charm w/in 5 minutes.  Makes me wonder if anyone has ever quit the verapamil in order to use taurine in much larger quantities.


Stymie, that's a good question. I don't know of anyone who has done as you suggest.  For me, the energy drink works best coupled with O2. In the beginning I tried it as an abortive on its own but it didn't work. Paired with O2, though, it really does cut abort time. Maybe someone else will chime in with an answer to your question. In the meantime, blessings. lance
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #13 - Jun 22nd, 2011 at 7:27pm  
Stymie wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:12am:
Thanks Barry. 

That is a good way to put it. 

I'm also using supplements and noted the link from Batch...I've practically been taking the same daily cocktail anyway (except not that high D3...wow, 10,000 IU is a lot....is this how much you take as well?)

 

Cheers
Stymie


Hi Stymie

The supplement I take is Natures own brand Magnesium/Calcium/D3 combo & is way lower than as in Batch’s method but I have been on it for a far longer time, I started back in April 2006 so I suspect that I have by now got to a point where what I take is best described as a maintenance dose rather than a ramp up.

I take 1 tablet 3 times a day with each tablet containing:

Calcium amino acid chelate 500mg
Calcium carbonate 375mg
Magnesium amino acid chelate 125mg
Magnesium oxide-heavy 43mg
Vitamin D3 200IU

It should be noted that it took 171 days before I got any effect from the dosage I am taking.

Cheers
Barry
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #14 - Jun 23rd, 2011 at 6:57am  
Thanks for the info.  Quite similar to what I've been using, just add omega 3.  They say for fish oil it also takes several months to get the full effects.  Well done with the patience.... 




Barry_T_Coles wrote on Jun 22nd, 2011 at 7:27pm:
Stymie wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:12am:
Thanks Barry. 

That is a good way to put it. 

I'm also using supplements and noted the link from Batch...I've practically been taking the same daily cocktail anyway (except not that high D3...wow, 10,000 IU is a lot....is this how much you take as well?)

 

Cheers
Stymie


Hi Stymie

The supplement I take is Natures own brand Magnesium/Calcium/D3 combo & is way lower than as in Batch’s method but I have been on it for a far longer time, I started back in April 2006 so I suspect that I have by now got to a point where what I take is best described as a maintenance dose rather than a ramp up.

I take 1 tablet 3 times a day with each tablet containing:

Calcium amino acid chelate 500mg
Calcium carbonate 375mg
Magnesium amino acid chelate 125mg
Magnesium oxide-heavy 43mg
Vitamin D3 200IU

It should be noted that it took 171 days before I got any effect from the dosage I am taking.

Cheers
Barry

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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #15 - Jun 23rd, 2011 at 7:53am  
It may be worth getting your vitamin D levels checked. I have been on 14,000 iu of D3 for 4 months and the blood test came back today and I am very deficient in D3. Dr has upper my D3 to 20,000 iu daily so 10,000 may not be too high. She also has another CH patient and his vit D readings were very low also
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #16 - Jun 23rd, 2011 at 10:38am  
Stymie,

Hanoi...  Hmm...  The last time I flew to Hanoi they held a spectacular fireworks show in my honor...  The air defense battalion near Kep Air Base lit me up with their Fan Song-F fire control radar and proceeded to ripple launch three SA-2 Guideline surface to air missiles... all three guiding on me in my F-8J Crusader...

They also had a lot of Fire Can radar directed 57 mm AAA...   The radar directed 57 mm flak was breaking well behind and below me and the first two SAMs were relatively easy to dodge... that is if you call playing chicken with two telephone poles coming at you doing Mach 3 (~2,000 miles an hour) easy... 

The third SAM was a different story...  It was apparently being optically guided and they had kept it on the deck... I'd lost sight of it while maneuvering against the first two SAMs and when they missed by a wide margin, I called "No Joy on the third SAM..."

My wingman, who had been watching the show from a couple miles away, responded with... "Batch...  It's directly under you coming straight up!"  I snapped inverted, picked it up and pulled a hard break turn, but it still passed much too close...  like close enough to see the lettering stenciled on the missile...

Fortunately for me...  nothing happened... The SAM went ballistic zooming up to at least 60,000 feet where it was command destructed in a huge orange fireball... 

By the time it was all over...  maybe 90 seconds...  I'd expended most my chaff and as I'd been in afterburner the entire time doing the speed of heat...  I'd burned nearly a thousand pounds of badly needed fuel...  (and sucked down a lot of oxygen at flow rates well over 40 liters/minute...) 

When the dust had settled my wingman made a brief transmission asking about my insurance company and would I please turn off the SAM magnet... 

The two MIG-21s we'd been chasing were long gone... so we "bugged out" South to get "feet wet" a few miles East of Hai Phong where we chummed up more flack on our way back to the ship...

I've had several ship and squadron mates make trips back to Vietnam in the last few years and all said it was a wonderful experience...  There were some clinging memories of pilots we lost...  but it was still a rewarding trip nonetheless.

Back to your oxygen therapy...  At a flow rate of 15 liters/minute you'll have a tough time trying to hyperventilate.  You need a flow rate of 25 liters/minute to ensure you cast off enough CO2 for the really short abort times.

You've got a couple options...  The first is a modified breathing procedure where you take two to three deep breaths of air very rapidly exhaling forcibly and completely each time, followed by a deep breath of oxygen. Keep repeating this sequence until the abort. 

I know this procedure is contrary to the standing guidance to breath only 100% oxygen to abort a cluster headache, but it turns out we only need an oxygen flow rate of 7 to 9 liters/minute to saturate blood hemoglobin to 100%. 

The additional lung ventilation gained by hyperventilating with air, although not as effective as hyperventilating with 100% oxygen, is equally important as it provides the lung ventilation needed to cast off CO2 faster than our body generates it through normal metabolism. 

If you do this right, you'll push yourself into respiratory alkalosis and should start experiencing the symptoms of paresthesia - a slight tingling or prickling of the fingertips, lips or back of the neck.  You may even feel a little dizzy.  All this is normal and a good sign you're on your way to a rapid abort of your CH.

The second option is to make your own redneck reservoir bag out of a clean 40-gallon trash bag or 55 gallon drum liner.  Tape the open end of the trash bag closed with duck tape for a gas tight seal then cut a half inch off one of the opposite corners and secure it to the bottom of the mask with electrician's tape.

Fill the bag with oxygen ahead of time and seal with a rubber band.  When the beast starts jumping ugly, turn on the oxygen and start hyperventilating.  A 40-gallon trash bag holds 120 liters of oxygen and that should give you enough for 3 to 4 minutes of unrestricted hyperventilation.

As far as the anti-inflammatory regimen goes...  A 10,000 I.U. dose of vitamin D3 may sound like a lot but it really isn't.  Your skin can make that much in as little as 30 minutes in direct sunlight with your shirt off and no sun block. 

I've been on this regimen since last October at 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day and my wife takes 15,000 I.U. a day...  She doesn't have CH, but likes the extra energy...

Please keep us posted on your response to this regimen...  If it works for you like it has for others, you should experience a marked drop in the frequency and severity of your CH in as little as two days...  Most are experiencing favorable results in less than a week.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #17 - Jun 23rd, 2011 at 11:21am  
Crap Batch....you should write a freaking book. That made my hackles rise just reading it! Shocked

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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #18 - Jun 23rd, 2011 at 12:01pm  
Guiseppi wrote on Jun 23rd, 2011 at 11:21am:
Crap Batch....you should write a freaking book. That made my hackles rise just reading it! Shocked
Joe


Yeah...WOW...what a great first person account.

Reminds me of the WWII B-26 pilot who described to me flying on D Day..and dodging our own artillery shells..."which looked like VW buses flying past"

Jon
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #19 - Jun 23rd, 2011 at 2:59pm  
Guiseppi wrote on Jun 23rd, 2011 at 11:21am:
Crap Batch....you should write a freaking book. That made my hackles rise just reading it!


My thoughts exactly!

That was one amazingly well written description that will match anything Stephen Coonts and the like have written.

So when is you first book out?
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #20 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 2:24am  
Thanks oxyrunner,

Yes I had my vitamin levels checked a few months ago, as part of an overall physical, and they were fine.  I've been on a supplement regime of omega-3, B complex, magnesium, D3, coenzyme q10, l-lysine and ginko for a long while.  It certainly helps my stress level, the Q10 helps with energy (I am fairly active...well, when not in a cycle that is).  Whether it has positively changed anything about the cycle I'm in, its hard to tell.  I THINK so but couldn't say for sure.  Either way, I'm sold on the regime (though indeed upping the D3 dose...until I run out of the liquid, as it is impossible to get high-dose D3 in Vietnam or Thailand....will stock up in September when back in Vancouver for a holiday).  Cheers!   


oxyrunner wrote on Jun 23rd, 2011 at 7:53am:
It may be worth getting your vitamin D levels checked. I have been on 14,000 iu of D3 for 4 months and the blood test came back today and I am very deficient in D3. Dr has upper my D3 to 20,000 iu daily so 10,000 may not be too high. She also has another CH patient and his vit D readings were very low also

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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #21 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 2:52am  
Hi wimsey.  Yes it would interesting wouldnt it?  Unfortunately I dont think I'll sign up for the experiment, now that the verapamil seems to be kicking in and having its usual positive effect Smiley  I'm more or less back in my usual routine of mild hits (or pseudo-hits) during the day, very directed in the eyeball and not so boring, which usually dont even really need oxygen or taurine, and then trying to manage the usual night hit(s) by upping the verapamil and melatonin.  Success at night is 50-50 (also as usual).  I tend to stay up to midnight or later hoping I can get the hit over and done with, bleed it out, as 90% of the time if I go to sleep before it hits, the beast will have too great a hold of me once it wakes me up to abort in any way.  So I tried to bleed out the pain beforehand, often through a couple less severe hits that O2 and the red bull help with.  Then at least I can get 4 or more hours sleep.  Like I think I've seen you mention, its all about understanding our body and figuring out what works best individually.  Plus taking an "accepting" attitude about the hits when they do come, best I can.

I've said it before, I think I am one of the "luckier" clusterheads (if such a thing) as my remissions are long (2-3 years).  But I wasnt exactly feeling lucky last night when I had a whopper (nominated for the Stymie CH Hall of Fame) that had my visiting inlaws (who know nothing about CH....unheard of in Vietnam) extremely concerned and wanting to help/intervene/take me to a doctor etc.  I kindly and lovingly thanked them for the concern, and explained that, as the Buddha once said, everything changes and so will this, and then warmly requested that they not worry about me and kindly stay the %$#* away from me Smiley

Now today I have that all-day post-whopper soreness.  Like the aftermath of a battlefield. Some on here may call these "shadows" but I differentiate.  Shadows for me are the tightness/slight pain I get when a hit is welling up.  This post-war, bruised and battered aftermath is something different...but a bit more reassuring in a sense as it usually means I'll be PF for a day or more as the Beast re-fuels.

Cheers
Stymie

   wimsey1 wrote on Jun 22nd, 2011 at 8:25am:
Quote:
I just had a K7 or 8 and 15  minutes into O2 reached for a Red Bull, which again worked its charm w/in 5 minutes.  Makes me wonder if anyone has ever quit the verapamil in order to use taurine in much larger quantities.


Stymie, that's a good question. I don't know of anyone who has done as you suggest.  For me, the energy drink works best coupled with O2. In the beginning I tried it as an abortive on its own but it didn't work. Paired with O2, though, it really does cut abort time. Maybe someone else will chime in with an answer to your question. In the meantime, blessings. lance

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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #22 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 3:08am  
Thanks Batch.

I've been on sort of a similar regime for several months now, but I will up the D3 (until I run out) and let you know how it goes.  I'm thinking the regime I was already on (omega-3, magnesium, and other supplements) is already helping in this cycle, but hard to say for sure.  I do know for sure that overall I have less stress and more energy etc. and that of course always is a good thing.

Thanks for the O2 tips.  Now that the verapamil seems to be kicking in, I am not turning to the O2 and taurine nearly as much, or I should say there are fewer really bad hits (where O2 for me, throughout the years, does not always work, despite having the highest flows and using the correct techniques back when I lived in Vancouver).  I had imagined an invention similar to what you describe with the garbage bag.   I will try this and let you know how it goes.

That is indeed quite a harrowing tale about your "visit" to Hanoi.  I've met a few vets over the 7 years I've lived here, and they all seems to find returning very positive and personally satisfying (or therapeutic maybe for some..).  Despite the constant referrals to past struggles and extremely patriotic tone of state-controlled TV public service announcements, soap operas, dramas and most of the older popular music etc., the average Vietnamese is far more interested in the present and future and not dwell on the past.  Many Americans are pleasantly surprised at how warmly they are received (thinking that they might be poorly received here...but its completely not the case).  We should be here another year or less...moving to either Bangkok or Fiji.  If you ever decide to come visit the region, give me a ring!  If you are still in remission, we can grab a cold, delicious (and cheap) "bia hoi" (street beer) and a bowl of pho.  And if the CHs arise, well I have a tank! (BYONRB).

Regards
Stymie

    Batch wrote on Jun 23rd, 2011 at 10:38am:
Stymie,

Hanoi...  Hmm...  The last time I flew to Hanoi they held a spectacular fireworks show in my honor...  The air defense battalion near Kep Air Base lit me up with their Fan Song-F fire control radar and proceeded to ripple launch three SA-2 Guideline surface to air missiles... all three guiding on me in my F-8J Crusader...

They also had a lot of Fire Can radar directed 57 mm AAA...   The radar directed 57 mm flak was breaking well behind and below me and the first two SAMs were relatively easy to dodge... that is if you call playing chicken with two telephone poles coming at you doing Mach 3 (~2,000 miles an hour) easy... 

The third SAM was a different story...  It was apparently being optically guided and they had kept it on the deck... I'd lost sight of it while maneuvering against the first two SAMs and when they missed by a wide margin, I called "No Joy on the third SAM..."

My wingman, who had been watching the show from a couple miles away, responded with... "Batch...  It's directly under you coming straight up!"  I snapped inverted, picked it up and pulled a hard break turn, but it still passed much too close...  like close enough to see the lettering stenciled on the missile...

Fortunately for me...  nothing happened... The SAM went ballistic zooming up to at least 60,000 feet where it was command destructed in a huge orange fireball... 

By the time it was all over...  maybe 90 seconds...  I'd expended most my chaff and as I'd been in afterburner the entire time doing the speed of heat...  I'd burned nearly a thousand pounds of badly needed fuel...  (and sucked down a lot of oxygen at flow rates well over 40 liters/minute...) 

When the dust had settled my wingman made a brief transmission asking about my insurance company and would I please turn off the SAM magnet... 

The two MIG-21s we'd been chasing were long gone... so we "bugged out" South to get "feet wet" a few miles East of Hai Phong where we chummed up more flack on our way back to the ship...

I've had several ship and squadron mates make trips back to Vietnam in the last few years and all said it was a wonderful experience...  There were some clinging memories of pilots we lost...  but it was still a rewarding trip nonetheless.

Back to your oxygen therapy...  At a flow rate of 15 liters/minute you'll have a tough time trying to hyperventilate.  You need a flow rate of 25 liters/minute to ensure you cast off enough CO2 for the really short abort times.

You've got a couple options...  The first is a modified breathing procedure where you take two to three deep breaths of air very rapidly exhaling forcibly and completely each time, followed by a deep breath of oxygen. Keep repeating this sequence until the abort. 

I know this procedure is contrary to the standing guidance to breath only 100% oxygen to abort a cluster headache, but it turns out we only need an oxygen flow rate of 7 to 9 liters/minute to saturate blood hemoglobin to 100%. 

The additional lung ventilation gained by hyperventilating with air, although not as effective as hyperventilating with 100% oxygen, is equally important as it provides the lung ventilation needed to cast off CO2 faster than our body generates it through normal metabolism. 

If you do this right, you'll push yourself into respiratory alkalosis and should start experiencing the symptoms of paresthesia - a slight tingling or prickling of the fingertips, lips or back of the neck.  You may even feel a little dizzy.  All this is normal and a good sign you're on your way to a rapid abort of your CH.

The second option is to make your own redneck reservoir bag out of a clean 40-gallon trash bag or 55 gallon drum liner.  Tape the open end of the trash bag closed with duck tape for a gas tight seal then cut a half inch off one of the opposite corners and secure it to the bottom of the mask with electrician's tape.

Fill the bag with oxygen ahead of time and seal with a rubber band.  When the beast starts jumping ugly, turn on the oxygen and start hyperventilating.  A 40-gallon trash bag holds 120 liters of oxygen and that should give you enough for 3 to 4 minutes of unrestricted hyperventilation.

As far as the anti-inflammatory regimen goes...  A 10,000 I.U. dose of vitamin D3 may sound like a lot but it really isn't.  Your skin can make that much in as little as 30 minutes in direct sunlight with your shirt off and no sun block. 

I've been on this regimen since last October at 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day and my wife takes 15,000 I.U. a day...  She doesn't have CH, but likes the extra energy...

Please keep us posted on your response to this regimen...  If it works for you like it has for others, you should experience a marked drop in the frequency and severity of your CH in as little as two days...  Most are experiencing favorable results in less than a week.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Whats the real deal with taurine and verapamil?
Reply #23 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 8:30am  
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(BYONRB)

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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