Click this link to read a post I like on the clusterheadaches.com message board...

JBOGG

CH.com Newbie

Offline

I Love CH.com!

Posts: 9
Gender: male

Oxygen Therapy Questions
Jun 6^th, 2011 at 7:03am

I just started O2 therapy last week for the first time, and the results have been good if I start the O2 soon enough. I received a 15 lpm regulator with the el cheapo mask. I have already ordered the optimask, and am looking for a higher lpm regulator. When I was using Imitrex, I would often wait to take it to insure I did not waste it on a "light" CH. The problem I found with that approach was that theres no way of knowing which ones will become a head banger. Since a CH can ramp so very quickly, and become much more difficult to abort, I felt like I was rolling the dice each time.

The low cost of the O2 means I no longer have to be as selective in using the therapy. Is there a downside to using too much O2? I am currently using it 3 -4 times a day, for no more than 20 minutes at a time. I am not aware of any health concerns with that frequency, but I am more concerned about developing a tolerance with repeated use, rendering the therapy less effective. Hopefully I am worried about nothing. Are you guys finding the O2 remains effective over the long haul? Anyone requiring higher doses over time? Is there any reason not to stay on the O2 for more than 20 mins at a time? Any input is appreciated.

Back to top

IP Logged

Brew

CH.com Sponsor
CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Posts: 14163

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #1 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 7:40am

You'd only have to be concerned if you were breathing 100% pure O2 for more than about 20 hours straight.

And you cannot develop a tolerance to O2. Every now and again it just won't work for whatever reason, but that's almost always because we don't get on it soon enough and that particular hit develops into a mondo headbanger.

Back to top

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

IP Logged

Guiseppi

CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus

Offline

San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011

Posts: 12063
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #2 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 8:07am

What Brew said. I've been using 02 as my primary abort for well over 20 years and it rarely fails me. Generally only when I don't get on it fast enough or stay on it long enough. So as soon as you feel the familiar tense neck, tingle in the back of the scalp, pressure in the ear, fire that tank off. You can't overdose on 02 and you won't build a tolerance. 2 of the many reasons it's sweeping the board like it is, it's that good.

I found when I drink an energy drink with my 02 therapy, I prefer sugar free red bull just for the taste, it seems to speed the abort times, and prevents the come backer attack I used to get within 20 minutes of shutting off the 02. My wife will pour one "on the rocks" as soon as she hears the clink of the tubing on my E-Tanks and she knows beasty is coming!

So glad you have 02, been a sanity saver for me.

Joe

Back to top

"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.

IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #3 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 8:34am

Brew hit the nail spot on... There is no downside to repeated use of oxygen therapy.

I have over 3000 hours flying Navy fighters and all of that flight time was spent breathing 100% oxygen from takeoff to landing ashore or trap aboard ship. I passed my annual flight physicals every year for 24 years and I'm still going strong at 67.

If anything, using oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation makes you work harder breathing than normal so can actually improve lung functions. Lung function measurements of NASA safety divers who pre-oxygenate prior to working in the reduced gravity pools with the Astronauts confirm this.

As far as regulators go, the best available is the 0-60 liter/minute InGage™ made by Flotec. At $190 with a DISS fitting for a demand valve, it's a bargain.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Here's a photo of the InGage™ 0-60 liter/minute CGA-540 regulators on my M60 roadie... The black knurled knob means no wrench required to attach the regulator to an oxygen cylinder.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jun 6^th, 2011 at 8:36am by Batch »

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

JBOGG CH.com Newbie Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 9 Gender:	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #4 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 8:45am Thanks for the prompt responses. What is involved with the hyperventilating technique. Do you hyperventilate until the pain subsides, or just for a specific length of time. I realize I can't even try it until I get the proper mask and regulator.
Back to top	IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #5 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 9:18am

The short answer to your question is yes...

You need to voluntarily hyperventilate with 100% oxygen until you reach a pain free abort with this method of oxygen therapy. You do this in order to reduce CO2 levels below normal. This will push your system into respiratory alkalosis.

You'll know when you've reached this temporary condition when you start experiencing the symptoms of paresthesia - a very slight tingling or prickling of the fingertips, lips or back of the neck. You may also experience a slight dizziness.

These symptoms are normal and they're the best indication you'll get the fastest abort possible. Once you get familiar with these sensations you adjust your respiration rate and tidal volume of oxygen inhaled with each breath to maintain them. The symptoms of paresthesia will clear rapidly as soon as you resume normal respiration rates.

The goal of this method of oxygen therapy is the fastest abort of your CH as possible. If done properly you should average 7 minute abort times for CH between pain level 3 through 9. The higher the pain level at start of therapy, the longer the abort time.

The procedures and breathing techniques used with this method of oxygen therapy are important. Check your PM inbox for additional info.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

Guiseppi CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011 Posts: 12063 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA Gender:	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #6 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 9:57am I'm glad Batch piped in, he is the boards' resident oxygen guru. His posts are long and technical...read them anyways! Joe
Back to top	"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean. IP Logged

Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #7 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 10:06am P.S. - They look longer than they really are because he uses the old guy font!
Back to top	"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #8 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 1:50pm

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Since going pain free after starting the anti-inflammatory regimen last October I've turned geezing into a new art form...

Everything just keeps getting bigger and better... and the little lady just can't keep her hands off me.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

Mike NZ CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Oxygen rocks! D3 too! Posts: 3785 Auckland, New Zealand Gender:	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #9 - Jun 7^th, 2011 at 3:31am Guiseppi wrote on Jun 6^th, 2011 at 9:57am: I'm glad Batch piped in, he is the boards' resident oxygen guru. His posts are long and technical...read them anyways! Then read them again. Anything Batch writes is well worth reading a few times! Thanks Batch - I know you've helped me.
Back to top	IP Logged

Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #10 - Jun 7^th, 2011 at 10:26am I give him a bit of a hard time sometimes, but Batch is the absolute best! I don't say thank you often enough - thank you, Pete!
Back to top	"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #11 - Jun 8^th, 2011 at 1:01am

Mike, Bill,

Thank you for the kind words... We're making progress on new and more effective methods of treating cluster headache, but we still have a long way to go in getting these methods blessed and available to CH'ers worldwide.

I took a little over 4 years to get Dr. Todd Rozen's study of oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation started... Two and a half years just to dig up the required funding...

Plans for the follow-on study of this method of oxygen therapy are proceeding on schedule. I'm also working on an on-line survey of CH'ers who have tried the anti-inflammatory regimen and expect to have it up and running in a couple weeks.

If the results of this survey come out like I think they will, we might just be able to jump-start the clinical study process for this regimen.

We've a few other projects that should come to fruition over the next couple months that will help the outreach even more.

Take care, thanks again for all the support, and keep your fingers crossed.

V/R, Batch

Back to top

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

gardengal CH.com Junior Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 55 x0\|oskaloosa\|USA\|\|0\|0\| Gender:	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #12 - Jun 9^th, 2011 at 9:01am Ive found I have to stand in front of a fan because I break into a sweat trying to hypervent. I still only have a 15 regulator on my tank and it is alot of work to get enough oxygen, but it still works.
Back to top	IP Logged

akage CH.com Junior Offline Posts: 34	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #13 - Jun 9^th, 2011 at 5:48pm Is it possible to break the demand valve with a welding regulator if it's completely open (meaning maximum pressure)? I assume not, but would like to confirm before I try it out.
Back to top	IP Logged

gardengal CH.com Junior Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 55 x0\|oskaloosa\|USA\|\|0\|0\| Gender:	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #14 - Jun 9^th, 2011 at 10:43pm When you hypervent, do you breath tru your mouth or nose or does it matter?
Back to top	IP Logged

wimsey1

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

I Love CH.com!

Posts: 2457
MA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #15 - Jun 10^th, 2011 at 8:00am

Akage, since the demand flow valve bypasses the regulator's settings and draws directly from the tank, I would think not. I keep my regulator set to 0 and draw breath in and sometimes push the demand valve if I get tired breathing.

Gardengal, it shouldn't really matter, I don't think. I would have trouble breathing in only through my nose, though. And yes, we are actually working the therapy and breathing that hard, that rapidly, that deeply for prolonged periods of time can be exhausting.

While we have an agreed upon technique, I think it serves more as a baseline which can be modified upon use and experience. For example, I used to breathe and pace. Counterproductive. So, I stood still and applied the O2. Better. Now I find a sitting posture with clearing breaths, followed by rapid inhalations, followed by deeper, slower breaths works best and quickest for me. The good part is, for so many of us, O2 just flat out works. Blessings. lance

Back to top

IP Logged

akage CH.com Junior Offline Posts: 34	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #16 - Jun 10^th, 2011 at 2:07pm I see, I expected welding regulators to work differently, i.e. if they're closed you can't get any oxygen from DISS even with the demand valve.
Back to top	IP Logged

Skyhawk5

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 1320
Ypsilanti, Mi. USA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #17 - Jun 10^th, 2011 at 10:13pm

Gardengal, I hyperventilate thru an O2PTI mask and breathe thru both mouth and nose. Many on this site use the mouthpiece and this requires a little more efffort to not take in outside air thru the nose.

If you're using a mask, just go for it full blast. For best results, hyperventilating until the pain leaves, without emptying the bag, if you do empty the bag during the deepest breaths you can take, you need a higher flow.

Batch gave me the technique I use and I can abort in less than 5 min using 25lpm and above. Just may have saved my life.

Best wishes, Don

Back to top

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the Beast , I have O2 so I fear him not.

IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #18 - Jun 11^th, 2011 at 2:39pm

akage wrote on Jun 9^th, 2011 at 5:48pm:

Is it possible to break the demand valve with a welding regulator if it's completely open (meaning maximum pressure)? I assume not, but would like to confirm before I try it out.

I'm not sure what you're doing so will offer a couple thoughts...

The short answer is YES... you can damage a demand valve with unregulated oxygen cylinder pressure... Don't do it.

Most demand valves here in the US require a regulated inlet pressure of 50 psi (3.44 BAR) and a few up to 70 psi (4.82 BAR) at the DISS ('Diameter Index Safety System') fitting.

Hitting a demand valve with unregulated pressure from an oxygen cylinder at 2200 psi (150 BAR in the US or 200 BAR in Europe), is not a good idea.

That can easily cause damage to the demand valve and anyone standing near it.

Get a proper medical regulator with a DISS fitting if you're here in the US.

Now... Just in case I miss-read your post and you have a medical oxygen regulator with a DISS fitting and you're attaching it to a Welders O2 cylinder with a CGA-540 fitting... In that case... It will work just fine and will do no damage to an attached demand valve. These regulators will regulate the supply pressure to the DISS fitting.

If you're hooking up a DISS fitting to a welder's oxygen regulator, set the regulated pressure to 50 psi and you should be ok.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jun 12^th, 2011 at 2:35am by Batch »

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

akage

CH.com Junior

Offline

Posts: 34

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #19 - Jun 12^th, 2011 at 4:01am

Thanks for the info, Batch.
I've ordered a 25LPM CGA-540 medical regulator recently since I need it for my Europe trip, but I don't know if it will work the same way as my CGA-870 regulator - the 870 has both a DISS and a barb outlet and the flow control just controls the barb outlet - the demand valve bypasses it. The 540 has just one DISS, so I'm wondering if in this case its flow control would block the valve and only allow up to 25LPM.
If that was the case I was thinking about buying a welding regulator as they're much cheaper than the medical equivalents. Now it seems like it might be better to shell out some cash on a medical one if I don't want to break the valve one day.

Gardengal, one word of caution - if you succeed in hyperventilating really effectively (some would say too effectively

) you might end up losing your consciousness for a few seconds. This can be dangerous especially if you tend to stand when breathing. Only today I scraped my hand on a box because I didn't expect to black out during my first inhale and I fell on it. Keep all the hard objects away and inhale while sitting if that happens to you.

Back to top

IP Logged

Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions Reply #20 - Jun 12^th, 2011 at 10:24am Me either. Never heard of blacking out on pure O2. And I've been using it for 20 years.
Back to top	"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand IP Logged

akage

CH.com Junior

Offline

Posts: 34

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #21 - Jun 12^th, 2011 at 3:23pm

This happens if you hyperventilate using the demand valve and it's not from O2 itself but rather from lack of CO2 after you exhale (hypocapnia leading to hyperventilation apnea). That's why it is safer to hyperventilate on your own (very deep exhales and very deep voluntary inhales), as it is harder to hyperventilate that way and your body adjusts to it. On the other hand it is slower (as in minutes compared to seconds with the valve) and less effective for treatment (as the whole point of hyperventilation is to achieve hypocapnia).
Normal deep breathing of O2 (the technique I used for 10 years before I heard about hyperventilation) will not result in apnea.

Back to top

IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #22 - Jun 12^th, 2011 at 11:19pm

Akage,

I'm afraid you're running on information from an old wives tale... We've done a lot of research including a pilot study of the demand valve method of oxygen therapy that also supports hyperventilation collecting data on over 366 aborts using this method... We observed 99% efficacy and very short abort times during this pilot study, but not one instance of blackout or any other adverse events!

CH'ers can and will get dizzy using this method of oxygen therapy. They will also encounter the other symptoms of paresthesia including a very slight tingling or prickling of the fingertips, lips and back of the neck, but nobody I know of has yet to blackout or become unconscious while using this procedure to abort a cluster headache.

These symptoms are the best indication the user has hyperventilated long enough and deep enough to push his or her system into respiratory alkalosis... the fastest way to abort a cluster headache reliably in a very short period of time... like an average of 7 minutes for CH between 3 and 9 on the 10-Point headache pain scale.

I've over 3000 hours flying Navy fighters and all of that flight time was spent breathing 100% oxygen at times at flow rates up to and above 50 liters/minute... I never lost consciousness and always brought the jet back for a safe landing ashore or a trap aboard ship.

I've also used oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation at flow rates up to 60 liters/minute with a Flotec InGage™ oxygen regulator and O2PTIMASK™ and with an Oxygen Demand Valve since 2005.

I'm a CCH'er and averaged 2.5 aborts a day so that works out to over 4500 aborts with this method of oxygen therapy and I've yet to black out...

If you're going to Europe, your CGA-540 regulator will be useless... I know... I travel to the UK, Norway, Switzerland and Germany frequently on matters involving CH. The UK has a different standard cylinder attach fitting than Norway, Germany and Switzerland.

You'll also need to do some research on the type bayonet quick disconnect fittings used in each country to attach a demand valve as your DISS fitting will not work either.

I had an DISS to DIN quick disconnect adapter fabricated for me by Flotec Inc. that works well in Germany shown in the photo below attached to a Linde Integrated Valve (LIV) with a DIN female bayonet fitting for use with an oxygen demand valve.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Each Non-EU and all the EU countries have a different standard for oxygen cylinder attach fittings and demand valve hose fittings... and DISS isn't one of them.

If you're only going to one country and can arrange to carry a LIV from Linde, call the folks at Flotec and you may have time for them to fabricate one of these adapters for you.

Regarding CGA-540 and CGA-870 regulators with selectable (click type) flow rates and or DISS... All US standard oxygen regulators are regulated to a fixed pressure of 50 psi unless special ordered otherwise.

DISS check valve fittings draw oxygen from downstream of this first stage fixed regulator that reduces cylinder pressure down to 50 psi and so does the flow rate selector. These selectors essentially offer a range of selectable orifices to control the flow rates... big openings for high flow rates and small openings for low flow rate.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jun 13^th, 2011 at 1:41am by Batch »

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

JBOGG

CH.com Newbie

Offline

I Love CH.com!

Posts: 9
Gender: male

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #23 - Jun 13^th, 2011 at 2:13pm

Batch...Thanks for all the information. I am still relying on the 15 lpm regulator I received from the home health company until I receive my new one from Flotec. At 15 lpm how many minutes of O2 can I expect from a type "M" tank? The home health Co. told me to expect at least 4 - 4 1/2 hrs, but so far I have averaged just under 3 hrs on my first two tanks. The company rep said they don't have many requests for the type "M" tanks, and they had never heard of O2 for CH. While the O2 definitely works for me, with the 15 lpm regulator it is requiring 15 - 20 minutes per abort. Is that abort time fairly normal for that lpm regulator? I had a long night last Thurs. I used the O2 almost every 2 hrs for a total of 5 aborts between 11PM and 8AM. It worked every time, but little did I realize that I had used half an "M" tank in one night. I ended up stressing all weekend about my limited O2 since the needle on the gauge was deep in the red (refill) by Saturday morning.

Additionally, I woke up several days ago with a little chest tightness upper left side. Definitely not painful, just noticeable. I had tried the night before to hyperventilate the best I could with the small mask/bag that came with the tank, but not very successfully. I had also used an Imitrex 6 mg injection a day or two earlier as well. I have used Imitrex many times in the past with no side effects to my knowledge. Is there anything I might have done incorrectly using the O2 therapy that could result in the chest tightness? I have already made an appt with my physician for tomorrow since the condition still persists. All feedback is appreciated.

Back to top

IP Logged

akage

CH.com Junior

Offline

Posts: 34

Re: Oxygen Therapy Questions
Reply #24 - Jun 13^th, 2011 at 2:24pm

Thanks for reminding me about DIN-477, I totally forgot about that - need to buy an adapter then (this will probably do: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

TA-540-DIN).
As for blacking out after hyperventilation - I'm not here to convince anybody about it, it's not that important. I just know what I've experienced first hand a few times and I've got bruises to prove it.
On a side note, I saw a crime series episode yesterday where a woman supposedly committed suicide using oxygen - while having a small 5L tank, a standard regulator and a rebreather mask not strapped but held in hand - had a good laugh for some time Cheesy

Back to top

IP Logged

	Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
	Search box updated Dec 3, 2011... Search ch.com with Google!