Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Clusterheadaches.com
 
Search box updated Dec 3, 2011... Search ch.com with Google!
  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegisterEvent CalendarBirthday List  
 





Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Interesting read on O2 (Read 8392 times)
Guiseppi
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011


Posts: 12063
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #25 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:40pm
 
I'm with Potter. Having met Jerry, he's about the kindest man you could meet. I'm hoping this is just a mis communication....... Undecided

Joe
Back to top
  

"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
IP Logged
 
Jimi
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


Don't feed the moderators


Posts: 4925
Madisonville, KY
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #26 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:42pm
 
I agree.

Black......Callico is not saying what you thought he was saying.

From what I am seeing Callico is not stalking you. Unless he is sending derogatory pm's to you which I know that he isn't.

We know English is not your first language and I have already seen a couple of times where you did not understand the content of what was being said.

Hang in there. No one is after you. Smiley
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:43pm by Jimi »  

I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/ Hendrix1473  
IP Logged
 
Callico
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline


Author of "Stranded at
Romson's Lodge


Posts: 4916
Aurora IL
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #27 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 11:59pm
 
black wrote on Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:18pm:
Quote:
JMHO  You may leave the O2 regulator down and suffer.  I'll take the relief.



why would i want to do something like that?
i havent even come around such high plms and i am still working my luck with a concentrator for ecomical reasons as you already know.Meanwhile i am trying to understand the truth inbetween the contrasts i see.
you can do whatever you like as far as no one keeps stalking me around here with bad intentions and suspicion i am happy with that.
I am part of a community with mutual interest of his individuals trying to find my own way measuring at the same time all sort of informations.
thanks the rest for the answers and remind myself never to grow up becoming arrogant.

To Callico only: i am telling you this for the first and hopefully the last time.I DON'T APRECCIATE ANYONE ON MY TAIL.I am not here for your fun and entertainment pls bother someone else.I am in pain and chronic no kudzu works for me,haven't managed to abort in 5 min(i wish) thinking also to raise plm more to achieve nanoseconds.

so pls respect that.or at least try it if you can.


Black,

I have never been on your tail.  YOU are the one who PM'ed me for info on Kudzu.  I did not force it on you, nor will I on anyone.  All I did in that case was to answer your questions ans share what worked for me.  What works for one does not work for all.  If you have paid attention at all to my posts I've always shared what I have experienced in well over 30 years of CH.  I don't claim to know it all, nor do I try to force it on anyone else. 

I've been noticing in your posts lately an antagonism to most anything anyone else has suggested to you.  You have been argumentative about whatever is suggested.  All I was saying in the post you misconstrued is based on the cumulative experience of nearly everyone on this board the higher the flow of O2 the faster the abort.  You wanted to argue that, hence I said "JMHO (Just My Humble Opinion) You may leave the O2 regulator down and suffer.  I'll take the relief."

What I was saying to you is simply this:  You make your choice and live with the consequences.  I'll make my choices and do the same.  Furthermore, I wash my hands of you.  No one can, nor will try, to force you do do anything.  If you don't want to follow our advice, so be it.  I'll be very careful to leave you out the nest time you ask.

Jerry
Back to top
  

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end." Texas A&M Student (unknown)
Jerry Callison  
IP Logged
 
black
CH.com Old Timer
****
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 347
Greece,Athens
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #28 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 1:12am
 
i apologise.Didn't understand JMHO at all and stood only on the sentence which sounds like this completely different.

But for the antagonism i know you have noticed such but no i don't persue such thing except having the benefit,the right of doubt and questiong trying to give judgement a better place which is a completely different thing.And to be honest i haven't raised not even half of the questions and topics i have.

in any case i apologise for any inconvience from everybody and you too callico and have given a lot of thinking about my presence here judging whether someone has benefited  from me or have been benefited too and didn't came up with anything more than as a simple guest just viewing could.
more harm than good is the truth in my case.

so take care and pf wishes everyone.
Back to top
  

Oh come on!it's just water.It can't be that bad!
 
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #29 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 1:13am
 
Callico, There may be some negative reaction to the message of take my (our) advise or suffer, to someone who is already suffering. Sounds cold, but I also know from your other posts that you probably didn't mean it to sound that way. Another point of view.

To all,

I think there's also a feeling of groupthink throughout this thread that makes a few, like me, who question things wonder a little bit about the mission of the site, as opposed to what it says on the home page. That is, a forum to feel welcome and share ideas and thoughts to further our understanding of CH. The negativity thrown at me about posting some information really surprised me, and it was not only tolerated but supported by other members. I do think there's a great body of experience here, but there's a lot more to learn.

Group think: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

-Chris
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
JustNotRight
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH version 15.0.8 member
since 2005 aka GingerS224


Posts: 1300
Wilkes-Barre, Pa (USA)
Gender: female
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #30 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 6:37am
 
I too have read info about O2 toxicity and given the amount of time a CH'er spends on the O2, toxicity is not likely to be an issue. 

As to the heated discussion here we all need to remember that in reading the written word we do not hear voice inflections and that can lead to misunderstandings.  This needs to be taken into account when reading posts.  Also just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that you are being slighted in anyway.
Back to top
  

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind.
M.K. Gandhi

If you are going through hell...Just keep going
WWW JustNotRight gngr.stewart GingerS224  
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #31 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:22am
 
I think that's well said, Ginger. We also need to take care when writing posts.

Generally, I would recommend that personal messages stay as PMs, not as posts in the forum.

This message is pointed toward the group, me included, not anyone in particular.

-Chris
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:39am by Chris H »  
 
IP Logged
 
Potter
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Team MOOSE DROOL Stinky
Stuff on a Hook Prostaff


Posts: 3600
Blgs.Mt.
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #32 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 9:32am
 
Chris H wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 1:13am:
Callico, There may be some negative reaction to the message of take my (our) advise or suffer, to someone who is already suffering. Sounds cold, but I also know from your other posts that you probably didn't mean it to sound that way. Another point of view.

To all,

I think there's also a feeling of groupthink throughout this thread that makes a few, like me, who question things wonder a little bit about the mission of the site, as opposed to what it says on the home page. That is, a forum to feel welcome and share ideas and thoughts to further our understanding of CH. The negativity thrown at me about posting some information really surprised me, and it was not only tolerated but supported by other members. I do think there's a great body of experience here, but there's a lot more to learn.

Group think: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

-Chris

        So you're allowed to think and make a shit post,  but we, and I assume you lumped me with the others,  aren't allowed to respond?

                 Potter
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #33 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 9:54am
 
Potter, Response is what I was looking for. Personal attacks are inappropriate and non-productive.

A shit post? It's just information that's relevant to what we're doing. If you think it's bad information, say so, but include why you think so. Add value to the discussion otherwise it's just negative noise.

-Chris
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Guiseppi
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011


Posts: 12063
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #34 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 9:56am
 
Chris, as a moderator, I'm one of the people stuck with trying to decide when posts cross the line and turn to personal attacks. It's not a task we take lightly. If you had seen this board a few years ago, before we had moderators,  you'd have been correct in labeling it as a "groupthink" issue. Anyone posting anything contrary to what the "unspoken judges" felt to be the truth, was literally driven from the board. It was ugly.

I'm quick to caution people about labeling the "board's views and opinions," based on a single members', or even a few members responses. Stick around a while and you'll see 95% of the people here are good hearted people who are trying as best they know how to help. Ignore the other 5%, their power is built or destroyed based on the credibility you do or don't give them.

The other risk of course is of beating the horse, long after any sign of life is present! I think it's time to let this one die a natural death. The internet is a wild, unpredictable, public forum. Help us to make this board a good place to be.

Joe
Back to top
  

"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #35 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 10:15am
 
Thanks Joe. I believe that. In a group like this, passionate about a common theme, with found solutions that have not come from the many many doctors we've all endured, there's always the risk of falling into a groupthink mentality. Coming into this fairly new to the site, it does feel that it may be creeping in. I encourage diversity of thought to the board in order to continue to learn.

This is actually a different horse than what we've been discussing, so it may wind out a bit more I expect. I can certainly end it here.

-Chris
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Agostino Leyre
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


"Hit like a phillips head
into my brain."


Posts: 3803
Madison WI USA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #36 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 3:25pm
 
I would like to address the "group think mentality" issue.  Just look at the number of registered members then compare that to the number of people that you percieve to be "after you". 

We are all individuals here, most of us are pretty ornory (myself included), because we are in pain and are frustrated because we genuinely care about the rest of the members of this community.  And quite frankly it tends to chap a person's ass when they try to help some one avoid this pain, and then have the chosen method demonized by the medical community that to me, has really shown how inept they are when it comes to actually treating our condition.  If it weren't for this board, I would have "pulled the plug" years ago.  But because of the things I've learned here and the things I've learned from people I've met through this medium, I have a reign on this thing and don't let it get me down. 

This place is about helping each other, it's not about one upping each other, some of us are quite protective of our family, and the term family is quite accurate.  We really are a group of well-informed, well-experienced, well-intentioned, loving, accepting, forgiving, and honest people, if you take the time to get to know us.

thomas - the quiet cousin who drinks too much at family gatherings and farts in the corner.  Wink
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2010 at 3:26pm by Agostino Leyre »  

Triptans cause increased number of hits and increased intensity.  Learn it, believe it, live it.  I use triptans as the absolute LAST RESORT when treating my CH.&&
 
IP Logged
 
Jimi
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


Don't feed the moderators


Posts: 4925
Madisonville, KY
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #37 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 3:56pm
 
Great post Thomas! Smiley

Now go back to your corner.
Back to top
  

I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/ Hendrix1473  
IP Logged
 
Guiseppi
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011


Posts: 12063
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #38 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 4:42pm
 
thomas - the quiet cousin who drinks too much at family gatherings and farts in the corner

Damnit, I KNEW that was you...I took the heat for that! Angry

Joe
Back to top
  

"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
IP Logged
 
JustNotRight
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH version 15.0.8 member
since 2005 aka GingerS224


Posts: 1300
Wilkes-Barre, Pa (USA)
Gender: female
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #39 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 4:45pm
 
I Agree Nice Post Thomas!! 

Please, if you do have to let the methane flow stay in your corner  Grin
Back to top
  

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind.
M.K. Gandhi

If you are going through hell...Just keep going
WWW JustNotRight gngr.stewart GingerS224  
IP Logged
 
Callico
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline


Author of "Stranded at
Romson's Lodge


Posts: 4916
Aurora IL
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #40 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 7:22pm
 
Black,

Apology accepted.  I'm sorry you didn't understand JMHO.. It is an acronym we use sometimes along with a few others.  If you go to the Main home page at the very beginning of this site you will find a list of a few of them.  Knowing English is not your first language I should have realized there was a misunderstanding and not jumped on you so hard, so an apology is needed on my end as well.  I was not feeling well and reacted badly.  No excuse, but I did.  Please in the future if you don't understand something I am saying ask, but please don't get the idea I, or mostly anyone else here, is getting on your case or trying to give you grief.  My estimation is that 99% of the time peoples posts are meant to be constructive, not hurtful.  To be honest, I don't NEED this site for the information any more.  Once in a while something new comes along, but I need to give back what I was given when I was at the point of suicide,  Now I've learned what works for me,and I want to share it with others to keep them from what I went through for almost 30 years of dealing with what the medical community wanted to give me in their ignorance.  Please hang around and keep learning.  Yes, we are passionate about some things, and I don't apologize for that.  Most of the time we know what we are talking about.  Sometimes we make mistakes, but we try hard not to.

Jerry
Back to top
  

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end." Texas A&M Student (unknown)
Jerry Callison  
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #41 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:58pm
 
Well, I think I can safely say I've expressed my own orneriness. Comes with age and clusters. I look forward to working with this group and becoming part of the family if you'll have me. -Chris
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
George
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


Black-Billed Magpie


Posts: 8126
Boise, Idaho USA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #42 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:59pm
 
Chris H wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:58pm:
I look forward to working with this group and becoming part of the family if you'll have me. -Chris


Too late.  You already are.   Wink

Best,

George
Back to top
  

"Whoever loveth me, loveth my hound."  (Thomas More, author of "Utopia", and Chancellor of England.  1477-1535)
WWW George jacox6820 7165032563  
IP Logged
 
Agostino Leyre
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


"Hit like a phillips head
into my brain."


Posts: 3803
Madison WI USA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #43 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 9:40pm
 
Chris H wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:58pm:
Well, I think I can safely say I've expressed my own orneriness. Comes with age and clusters. I look forward to working with this group and becoming part of the family if you'll have me. -Chris



George wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:59pm:
Chris H wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 8:58pm:
I look forward to working with this group and becoming part of the family if you'll have me. -Chris


Too late.  You already are.   Wink

Best,

George

Indeed.
Back to top
  

Triptans cause increased number of hits and increased intensity.  Learn it, believe it, live it.  I use triptans as the absolute LAST RESORT when treating my CH.&&
 
IP Logged
 
Batch
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must


Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #44 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 11:05am
 
Chris,

Aviation experts and concerned pilots recognized the problem of hypoxia as early as 1917 when advances in aircraft engines pushed aircraft operating ceilings well above 10,000 feet.  The first use of supplemental oxygen by pilots occurred about that time.  It involved heavy iron cylinders filled with compressed oxygen and the method of delivery was a simple cylinder valve connected to a rubber tube fitted with a pipe stem the pilot held between his teeth.

A lot of innovative advances followed in short order after that most notably with the advent of the oxygen mask with inhalation and exhalation check valves.  However, all of the early oxygen masks were fed from constant flow regulators until 1942 when Navy and Army Air Corp aircraft were fitted with demand type oxygen regulators.

I’ve done some research on history of the oxygen demand valve regulators you might find interesting. The Auer Company developed the first demand type oxygen regulator in Germany in 1936. 

Coincidently, The first documented use of oxygen as an abortive for severe "migraine" attacks (read cluster headaches) as they were originally diagnosed, dates back to 1939 with work done by the Linde Air Products Co and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN.  Yes, the Linde Air Products was a spinoff from the Linde Co in Germany and it’s known today as Linde LifeGas.

By 1941, the US observers had had ample opportunity to recover functioning examples of the new German Demand oxygen breathing regulators and masks from downed Luftwaffe aircraft. 

The apparent advantages the German system offered over the older continuous flow systems were immediately evident and the captured technology was quickly removed to the Wright Aeromedical and Engineering Labs for analysis in June of 1941.  By 1942 most US Navy, Marine Corps and Army Air Corps aviators were using derivations of the German design.

There were always a few cases over the years since then when idiots eager to exit the gene pool neglected to wear their oxygen masks when flying above 10,000 feet, but the initial requirements for supplemental oxygen were well established by 1920.

OPNAVINST 3710, also known as the Naval Air Training and Operating Procedure Standardization (NATOPS) Program that mandates the use of oxygen from takeoff to landing went into effect in 1964.  It superseded the Navy’s Bureau of Aeronautics instruction that dated back to 1917 and essentially stated the same requirement for supplemental oxygen on all flights above 10,000.

The use of diluter demand oxygen regulators began during WW II with the requirement for extended missions escorting bombers.  The compressed oxygen cylinders could not hold enough oxygen for these prolonged missions using 100% oxygen flow rates so they made a compromise using diluter demand mode from 10,000 to 20,000 feet when they would switch to 100% oxygen.  The liquid oxygen (LOX) system design also lifted from captured Luftwaffe Me-109s began entering service in US fighter and attack aircraft around 1945.

The initial requirement to use oxygen masks from takeoff to landing began when the first Jets entering service in 1945.  These fighter and attack aircraft used bleed air from the compressor section of the jet engines to pressurize the cockpit.  As the early jet engines utilized centrifugal flow compressors, they tended to leak engine oil from the bearings and suck in hydraulic fluid from small leaks in the plenum chamber.  As a result, the bleed air coming from the compressor sections frequently contained toxic fumes.

The single seat F-9F8 Cougars I flew in 1967 still had compressed oxygen cylinders and diluter demand oxygen regulators.  We were required to remove our oxygen masks during engine run-up to full power prior to takeoff to do a “Sniff Check” for fumes as part of the Take Off Check List.  All the other aircraft I flew after that including the TF-9F8, the T-2A/B/C, TA-4 Skyhawk, F-8 H/J Crusader and F-4B/N/J/S Phantoms were all configured with the standard 5 liter LOX dewars with converters and demand flow regulators that delivered 100% oxygen.

Answers to the questions about oxygen flow rates and the requirement for prescriptions for same would be humorous if the consequences weren’t so costly in terms of increased out of pocket costs, all to frequent delays, and suffering. 

It was cost avoidance that drove the medical insurance companies to lobby Congress and the FDA to make USP Oxygen a prescription item.  The only problem is it has backfired as more than 30% of the home oxygen costs can be directly attributed not to its purity testing or handling procedures, but to the regulatory expenses involve in patient compliance testing for oxygen saturation levels and the huge bureaucracy involved in administering it’s use.

I’ve spoken with top Navy Flight Surgeons and Aviation Physiologists at the Naval Aerospace Medical Institute (NAMI) in Pensacola, FL about the use of oxygen flow rates greater than 15 liters/minute. They claim that most primary care physicians and neurologists are not trained in aviation physiology or aerospace medicine so are basically clueless when it comes to the use of oxygen other than as a supplement during surgery or for COPD sufferers. 

Consequently, most US physicians/neurologists consider any flow rate above 7 to 9 liters/minute “High” so are hesitant to prescribe any higher flow rates.  They also look at you in surprise and disbelief when you ask for your oxygen therapy prescription to be written for a flow rate 15 to 25 liters/minute. 

The need to treat most medical conditions conservatively and lack of any gold standard (randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled) clinical studies on oxygen flow rates greater than 12 liters/minute (see Goadsby’s 2006 study of oxygen therapy at 12 liters/minute published last January) also makes it difficult for PCPs or neurologists to justify prescribing oxygen flow rates of 15 liters/minute and higher.

Having said that, the most current standard of care for the acute treatment of cluster headache with 100% oxygen at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute as compiled and validated by the European Federation of Neurological Societies (EFNS), can be found at the following link: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

I've met with Dr, Peter Sandor on several occasions regarding the use of oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation for cluster headaches, and in July of this year with Dr. Arne May at UKE Hamburg on the same topic.  Both are convinced that when Dr. Todd Rozen completes his study of this method of oxygen therapy and publishes the results, it will make a substantial change in the way neurologists treat this disorder and in the research into the pathophysiology of the attack and abort mechanisms.

I've also met with Dr. Peter Goadsby who conducted the most recent study of oxygen therapy as an abortive for cluster headache to the gold standard.  It with the first major randomized double-blind placebo-controlled crossover trial comparing oxygen therapy versus placebo (forced air) for patients with cluster headache.  A summary of his study results can be found at the following link: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

When you look at the success rate or efficacy of oxygen therapy at flow rates of 7 to 9 and up to 12 liters/minute as an abortive for cluster headaches, you usually see the 70% figure.  What you don’t see is why the efficacy is not higher than 70% or the relationship between headache pain levels and time to abort.

What we found in our informal proof of concept study of oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation was a 99% efficacy (success rate) by all 7 participants (I didn’t count myself at 100%) and average abort times 2 to 3 times less than at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute.  We also found a very clear and direct correlation between pain levels and time to abort.  In short, a Kip-3 to Kip-4 cluster headache aborted in 3 to 4 minutes, and a Kip7 to Kip-8 cluster headache aborted in 8 to 12 minutes at flow rates that support hyperventilation.

In a side-by-side comparison, we found the average time to abort to a pain free state for pain levels 6 through 9 on the same 10-Point numerical pain scale using flow rates that support hyperventilation was 9 minutes with 100% effectiveness.  For a flow rate of 15 liters/minute the average abort time was 31 minutes with 52% effectiveness.

At this point I probably need to address why we need hyperventilation during oxygen therapy if we want fast and reliable aborts.  Hyperventilation is defined as ventilating the lungs with a greater volume of normal air or oxygen than needed.

For reference, the method of oxygen therapy many of us use involves voluntarily hyperventilating with 100% oxygen to attain respiratory alkalosis with symptoms of paresthesia and sustain it until the abort with complete cessation of cluster headache pain. 

The goal of this method of oxygen therapy is to abort both the excruciating pain and the triggering mechanism of a cluster headache as rapidly as safely as possible with a very high efficacy.  The mechanisms involved include hyperoxia, hypocapnia, and an elevated arterial pH as all three conditions stimulate the vasoconstriction associated with pathophysiology of an effective acute therapy in aborting the cluster headache. 

The elevated arterial pH carries the added benefit of the Bohr Effect, increasing hemoglobin's affinity for oxygen thereby super oxygenating blood flow to the brain, specifically to the affected vascular structures in and around the trigeminal nerves dilated by the cluster headache triggering mechanism.

If the level of physical activity increases such as doing the cluster dance, rocking back and forth, or banging your head against the wall or floor, you are working harder than sitting motionless. Under these levels of increased physical activity the level of CO2 production goes up…  and so does the respiration rate in order to maintain normal CO2 and arterial pH levels.

To put things in perspective, just because your respiration rate and tidal volume is higher during physical activity, it doesn’t mean you’re hyperventilating.  For example if you did jumping jacks for 30 seconds or ran up three to four flights of stairs, you would likely have a minute volume of lung ventilation equal to 50 liters.

A minute volume of respiration is equal to the amount of air or oxygen inhaled in one minute.  Even with this level of physical activity and a minute volume of 50 liters you wouldn’t be hyperventilating as this level of lung ventilation is “NORMAL” for that level of physical activity.  You would need a minute volume of 60 liters (an oxygen flow rate of 60 liters/minute) to be considered hyperventilating…

The direct relationship between increasing headache pain levels and increased time to abort to a pain free state suggests a possible quantitative relationship between cluster headache pain levels and the amount of CO2 removed from the bloodstream to achieve an abort. 

In other words, we suspect higher cluster headache pain levels are associated with progressively greater levels of vasodilation caused by the lower levels of arterial pH (higher levels of acid) and it takes progressively longer hyperventilating to pump out enough CO2 (carbonic acid) to elevate the arterial pH enough to trigger the vasoconstriction needed to abort a cluster headache and its triggering mechanism.

The dramatic drop in time to abort at each pain level when hyperventilating with an oxygen flow rate that supports hyperventilation suggests the lowering of PaCO2 levels made possible by this method of oxygen therapy plays a significant role in the efficacy and rapid nature of this abort mechanism.

We also suspect the reverse or opposite effect may be true if PaCO2 levels are too high due to restricted lung ventilation (too low an oxygen flow rate) and increased physical activity.  In other words, an abort with oxygen therapy may be prolonged or it may not be possible to abort the cluster headache with oxygen therapy if the flow rate is too low, the pain level is too high, and there is any physical activity during the oxygen therapy.  This could easily answer the question why the traditionally prescribed oxygen flow rate of 7 to 9 liters/minute and even up to 12 liters/minute is only 70% effective.

Hope this helps or at least provides some food for though…

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top
  

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there
pete_batcheller  
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #45 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:00pm
 
Batch, Thanks very much for taking the time to detail this out. Key takeaways that make a lot of sense to me are:

There are no sanctioned studies for higher flow rates, therefore docs don't prescribe. This makes sense because they manage their liability risk very carefully. I would add that there is probably little demand for higher volume studies other than CH, and CH is a very small population, so not much of a business case to conduct those studies. I assume Dr. Rosen is funded by grant or otherwise, because there's little to gain financially. What he's doing is in the interest of the patient.

It sounds like  increasing tidal volume (frequency and depth of breathing) of o2 intake also plays an important role in decreasing time to abort. This is likely where higher o2 volumes come into play. If I'm inhaling at 20 lpm and receiving o2 at 15 lpm, I'm not at 100% o2. If I'm inhaliing at 20lpm and receiving o2 at 25 lpm, I may hyperventilate and trigger vasoconstriction thereby reducing tension on the trigeminal nerve. Makes sense. I realize it's not quite that simple an equation.

One thing I'm unclear about is whether more or less o2 is actually delivered to the body and brain given the vasoconstriction and reduced blood flow. But maybe that's for another day.

-Chris
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Joe-P
CH.com Newbie
*
Offline




Posts: 7
Arlington, VA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #46 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:04pm
 
Batch,

Your last post is very informative.  All the biochemistry you are discussing makes it very understandable.  I completely understand why oxygen works to abort.  I saw no risk, which this entire thread was about, since the 100% oxygen is only used for short (less than 10 minutes) durations.  Thanks for interpreting all of the research. 
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:05pm by Joe-P »  
 
IP Logged
 
Callico
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline


Author of "Stranded at
Romson's Lodge


Posts: 4916
Aurora IL
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #47 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:23pm
 
Chris H wrote on Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:00pm:
Batch, Thanks very much for taking the time to detail this out. Key takeaways that make a lot of sense to me are:

There are no sanctioned studies for higher flow rates, therefore docs don't prescribe. This makes sense because they manage their liability risk very carefully. I would add that there is probably little demand for higher volume studies other than CH, and CH is a very small population, so not much of a business case to conduct those studies. I assume Dr. Rosen is funded by grant or otherwise, because there's little to gain financially. What he's doing is in the interest of the patient.

It sounds like  increasing tidal volume (frequency and depth of breathing) of o2 intake also plays an important role in decreasing time to abort. This is likely where higher o2 volumes come into play. If I'm inhaling at 20 lpm and receiving o2 at 15 lpm, I'm not at 100% o2. If I'm inhaliing at 20lpm and receiving o2 at 25 lpm, I may hyperventilate and trigger vasoconstriction thereby reducing tension on the trigeminal nerve. Makes sense. I realize it's not quite that simple an equation.

One thing I'm unclear about is whether more or less o2 is actually delivered to the body and brain given the vasoconstriction and reduced blood flow. But maybe that's for another day.

-Chris


BINGO!  Give that nice young man a Kewpie doll from the third shelf!  Grin

Chris, I think you got it.

Jerry
Back to top
  

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end." Texas A&M Student (unknown)
Jerry Callison  
IP Logged
 
Batch
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must


Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #48 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 3:20pm
 
Chris,

You're mostly spot on with your analysis of my post.  I'm not at liberty to divulge the source of the funding for Dr. Rozen's study at this time, but I can say Michael Berger, Royce Fishman and I played a major role in making it available.

As to how much oxygen reaches the brain when hyperventilating with 100% oxygen, I've tried hyperventilating on room air to abort a cluster headache when trapped out away from my oxygen.  In short, I could stop the pain from growing higher by doing this, but not abort the attack until I added the 100% oxygen. 

The Bohr Effect of increasing hemoglobin's affinity for oxygen and hypocapnia associated with a lower arterial pH, both due to hyperventilating with 100% oxygen are important parts of the equation as they can account for an additional 11% arterial oxygen to the brain and a significantly higher level of vasoconstriction.  I might add that oxygen perfusion within the brain is also much higher when hyperventilating with 100% oxygen even with the increased vasoconstriction.

The following link provides additional information and answers for you.  It's a study published in the Canadian Journal of Anesthesia titled "The influence of arterial oxygenation on cerebral venous oxygen saturation during hyperventilation" conducted by B. F. Matta et al.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

The study concludes: "It is likely that hypocapnia (casting off more CO2 than normal by hyperventilating with 100% oxygen), even at PaCO2 of 30 mmHg, results in cerebral vasoconstriction that exceeds any vasoconstrictive effect of normobaric hyperoxia."

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
Back to top
  

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there
pete_batcheller  
IP Logged
 
Chris H
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


CH with CH


Posts: 130
Gender: male
Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #49 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 7:08pm
 
Thanks again Batch! Much appreciated. -Chris
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print

DISCLAIMER: All information contained on this web site is for informational purposes only.  It is in no way intended to be used as a replacement for professional medical treatment.   clusterheadaches.com makes no claims as to the scientific/clinical validity of the information on this site OR to that of the information linked to from this site.  All information taken from the internet should be discussed with a medical professional!