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Interesting read on O2 (Read 8375 times)
Chris H
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Interesting read on O2
Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:27am
 
I can't decipher how that relates to our flow rates, but good to know about the signs of O2 toxicity.

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And here's another that may explain why we get relief.

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-Chris
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:31am by Chris H »  
 
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #1 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:40am
 
And what would be the reason you're so interested in pointing out how O2 might potentially harm us? Do you know how long you have to breathe pure O2 before it starts to do harm?

I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you're in the pharmaceutical business...
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #2 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 10:50am
 
BREW:
WHAT??? Actually, it probably does have to do with the fact that I'm in the pharma business, knowing better than to take medical advice at face value. I think it's important for people to do their homework, regardless of the source of advice. I also think it's very important that people have as much information as possible, both good and bad.

I'm not sure what you think I would gain from this. I have only a personal stake in knowing what's going to potentially happen to my body. Sharing that info is important, as much as sharing the potential benefits of novel approaches so that people can make informed decisions.

I don't appreciate your personal attack any more than I appreciate your giving incomplete medical advice to people in need. There's no conspiracy of pharma, FDA, and local pharmacists to keep you from getting better. Get over that.

-Chris

p.s. according to the article, it takes 6-10 minutes before problems can occur.
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2010 at 10:53am by Chris H »  
 
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #3 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 11:03am
 
Chris H wrote on Nov 7th, 2010 at 10:50am:
BREW:
WHAT??? Actually, it probably does have to do with the fact that I'm in the pharma business, knowing better than to take medical advice at face value. I think it's important for people to do their homework, regardless of the source of advice. I also think it's very important that people have as much information as possible, both good and bad.

I'm not sure what you think I would gain from this. I have only a personal stake in knowing what's going to potentially happen to my body. Sharing that info is important, as much as sharing the potential benefits of novel approaches so that people can make informed decisions.

I don't appreciate your personal attack any more than I appreciate your giving incomplete medical advice to people in need. There's no conspiracy of pharma, FDA, and local pharmacists to keep you from getting better. Get over that.

-Chris

p.s. according to the article, it takes 6-10 minutes before problems can occur.

         Then all our pilots in the military are dead.  RIP Batch.

              Potter
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #4 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 11:40am
 
Pilots use oxygen above 10,000 feet. Atmospheric pressure at variuos levels above and below sea level play an important part in how the body demands O2.

Aviation Oxygen Mask

There are 3 different kinds of oxygen masks that are available for the pilots and crews who fly at high altitudes:
Continuous Flow Masks: These masks provide a continuous flow if oxygen to the person wearing the mask. These masks are equipped with a ‘rebreather’ bag that helps recycle parts of the exhaled air thereby saving oxygen. General aviation aircrafts flying above 12,500 MSL make use these types of masks
Diluter Demand Masks: These supply oxygen when the person wearing the mask inhales. Hence, an airtight seal is required between the mask and the face of the user. When the user inhales, a demand oxygen regulator opens up a valve and supplies the oxygen that is required at a particular altitude. An increase in the altitude also increases the amount of oxygen that is delivered to the user. These masks are used at altitude as high as 34,000 feet altitude.
Pressure Demand Masks: These masks also supply oxygen when the person wearing the mask inhales. These masks are used at altitudes higher than 34,000 feet and can force 100 percent oxygen into the lungs of the users. In this case, inhalation is simple because it is forced but the exhalation is a difficult process. The pilots are trained to use these masks in an altitude chamber.
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2010 at 11:41am by Chris H »  
 
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #5 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 12:49pm
 
Military pilots stay on 100% O2 for hours at a time.

You need to do your homework, pal.

I'm not sure why you would think to scare potentially hundreds, if not thousands, of CH sufferers away from the best abortive we have that also has next to no side effects. Only you know the answer to that. But I will not sit idly by and let you get away with it.

ETA: One other thing - all of us here know how the FDA and big pharma has our best interests in mind.
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2010 at 12:51pm by Brew »  

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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #6 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 1:10pm
 
Brew, What I'm hearing from you is that you prefer to provide only the information you want people to hear so they can't think for themselves, just do as you instruct. You know, when politicians try to discredit real information and start slinging mud, it turns my stomach a bit. I don't trust them anymore.

I'm not trying to keep anybody from using O2. I use it myself. I was simply doing some research before going for a higher flow regulator. I thought the info was of interest and thought others might as well. See, I don't assume people are idiots and just need to be given party line info.

By the way, I've done my homework, pal.

I find your posts offensive, which is counter to the guidelines for this board.

-Chris
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #7 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 1:15pm
 
I find your agenda offensive.

I'll hang my hat with the brain-damaged thousands here who have already found relief.

Go ahead - you can have the last word. Then I'm done with you.
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #8 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 1:25pm
 
That better be the last word. Both of your attacks have went past attacking the idea and now the attack has become personal.

Step away and chill out would be my recommendation. Smiley
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #9 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 1:28pm
 
!!!
it should be wrong attacking in another clusterhead just for raising a topic for discussion from info that already exist outthere.

i don't know much about what pilot really do and it's probably the first time i read some info about it and even if i can't quite understand it,to be honest i couldn't understand batch's too words which is the only opposite word i ve found on this.

the truth is that maybe there is some truth in articles as of course as there is in so many people's word on this that really works.

But the main thing i think it should be(as we are not pilots but clusterheads)that the whole internet flows with medical articles saying O2 works in rates 7-10 plm providing relief in 15 min on 70% percent of patients,very few on 15 plm(i think) and none for higher plms as i at least have seen around except here.

which makes  me wonder what the hell is going on

But in any case it should be wrong attacking another clusterhead not on his opinion but on himself as he has a personal 'interest' on this.
It's enough with the pain and suffering ch gives,noone has to be isolated in a community as this one which is very important for everyone.

in other words brew i think you are crossing some lines here ....but moderators and DJ should be responsible for saying so and not me.
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2010 at 1:29pm by black »  

Oh come on!it's just water.It can't be that bad!
 
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #10 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 2:47pm
 
Thanks Black for bringing a sense of good will to this. Aren't we here to discuss and learn? -Chris
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #11 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 3:45pm
 
I'm out.
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #12 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 9:38am
 
Marc wrote on Nov 8th, 2010 at 8:52am:
I didn't have time to read the Wiki this morning, but if says that damage of any kind occurs, in normal healthy adults from a few minutes at atmospheric pressures...........then it goes against everything that I've researched for many years.

Many people miss important points in the articles that they read, like:  "at elevated pressures."

I will read the article tonight, but until someone shows me some new research, I will stand behind what I know:

- Short term use (15-20 minutes) of 100% oxygen at atmospheric pressure will not cause any damage to a healthy adult, at any flow rate that they can handle.

- Long term exposure and/or exposure to high concentrations at elevated pressures (think like a hyperbaric chamber) have both been proven to have a whole list of serious dangers.

- Babies and anyone with particular types of pulmonary problems have to carefully control exposure.

Again, I will read the links provided but Chris, I suspect that it has the same old information and that you may have missed "at elevated pressure."  If there is indeed something new, I will be glad to join you in sounding the alarm!

Marc

Thanks Marc.

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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #13 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 9:44am
 
It is an interesting thing from this board- our coversations and discussions are not just for "us"- there are countless newbies who might stumble across this as the only post they will read. If this was that post, said newbies need to know that many, many folks have had relief from high flow O2 for YEARS with no side effects. I would not like them getting scared off from O2 treatment because of this post. Yes we can discuss it, and should, but those newbies also need us to not scare them off with our actions and words.

Newbies: we're all sweet cuddly pussycats, I SWEAR. (did they buy it? They bought it? Good good...) I kid of course. We're all different sorts in this family, but we are all here to help and learn, that is our unifying trait.
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #14 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 11:32am
 
I'm In...  But only to clarify a few of the facts about breathing oxygen and to quell any worries about the safety of using oxygen therapy as an abortive for cluster headaches. 

The use of oxygen therapy as an abortive for cluster headaches is very safe...  Much more so than taking any of the far more invasive triptans as oxygen therapy has no lasting side effects if used properly.

Oxygen therapy is also a heck of a lot cheaper than triptans.  If used properly at a high enough flow rate, you own your own mask and regulator, with oxygen coming from an M-size oxygen cylinder, the cost per abort before insurance is $1.20 to $1.50.  It’s as low as 20 cents/abort with insurance co-pay.   On the other hand, 25mg to 50mg sumatriptan tablets run $7 to $9 each, a 5mg sumatriptan nasal spray applicator costs $32 and a sumatriptan SC Stat Pen injector costs $89 per shot.  Do the math...

Oxygen toxicity at normobaric (Sea Level) pressure is not really a problem for cluster headache sufferers who use oxygen therapy either.  An otherwise healthy adult would need to breathe 100% oxygen continuously at normobaric pressure (sea level) without any breaks breathing normal air for 10 to 12 hours to encounter the symptoms of oxygen toxicity. 

At a flow rate of 7 liters/minute, that would require an oxygen cylinder with over 5,000 liters of oxygen.

And, as the symptoms of oxygen toxicity are very similar to pneumonia where it becomes very painful to inhale, most of us would stop breathing the 100% oxygen at the first sign of breathing difficulties and switch to normal air long before incurring any lasting lung damage.

I'm an old Naval aviator and fighter pilot with over 3000 hours in jet fighters.  All of that flight time was spent breathing 100% oxygen from engine start and takeoff/cat shot to an arrested landing/trap aboard ship or field landing.  The average mission length was two hours and I have flown several extended missions that lasted 7 hours. I also routinely flew two and three of these two hour missions a day/night. 

I can also say that during actual and training air combat maneuvering where G-forces routinely get up to and exceed 6 Gs (six times the force of gravity), the work load is such that we inhale that 100% oxygen at flow rates greater than 50 liters/minute for several minutes at a time.

I accrued these flight hours over a 15 year period and passed my annual flight physicals with chest X-Rays for the entire 24 years I served as a Naval Officer...  I was also required to attend annual Aviation Physiology training that included an altitude chamber run every 4 years with a stop at 26,000 feet where we would take off our oxygen masks to intentionally experience hypoxia and then zoom up to a cabin pressure equal to 35,000 to 43,000 feet to experience pressure breathing where the oxygen regulator forced oxygen into our lungs to keep us conscious.

I've also used oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation since 2004 and I'm still here at age 66.

All of my experiences breathing 100% oxygen can easily be considered anecdotal information.  The following isn't.

I've checked with Flight Surgeons and Aviation Physiologists at the Naval Safety Center, the Naval Aerospace Medical Institute, the Naval Air Systems Command, and NASA. None of them were able to cite any medical problems experienced by Naval Aviators or Astronauts associated with repeated exposures to breathing 100% oxygen. 

My contact at NAVAIRSYSCOM also indicated that there have been over 125,000 designated Naval Aviators with fighter and attack aviation warfare specialties since the early 1940s. All these pilots and aircrew also had to pass annual flight physicals just to stay flying.

Given the average Naval Aviator flies between 1500 and 3000 hours during his or her career in the Navy or Marine Corps, you could easily say this is the single largest ongoing retrospective study on the effects of repeated exposure to breathing 100% oxygen in history. 

What’s even more impressive is the fact that they have yet to find any long-term medical problems associated with repeated exposure to breathing 100% oxygen. 

Good people of Clusterville…  That is hardly anecdotal.

OPNAV Instruction 3710.7T states in section 8.2.4.3 Tactical Jet and Tactical Jet Training Aircraft.  “Oxygen shall be used by all occupants from takeoff to landing.”

You might want to ask yourself why the Navy would require these pilots and aircrew to breathe oxygen while flying fighter and attack aircraft costing more than $40 Million dollars each plus an additional Million dollars to train a Naval Aviator if oxygen represented a potential health hazard.

The only exception to the OPNAV 3710 mandatory requirement is the Blue Angels who have a waver for air shows where they don’t wear and oxygen mask as all of their shows are conducted well below 10,000 feet, but even they must wear an oxygen mask during cross-country flights above 10,000 feet to and from show sites.

The oxygen masks and mini-regulators we've used over the years and the versions that are in use today function very similar to the oxygen demand valves some of us use for cluster headaches.  The only difference is when you connect the oxygen hose to the aircraft oxygen supply and turn it on you also get a constant flow of 100% oxygen at around 15 liters/minute.  If the workload requires additional lung ventilation to expel excess CO2, the mini-regulator functions just like the demand valve delivering the additional oxygen on demand.  These regulators can also support peak flow rates up to 200 liters/minute.

Around 2004, the Navy started converting its fleet of F/A-18 aircraft from the 5 liter liquid oxygen (LOX) dewar flasks that delivered gaseous 100% oxygen through a LOX converter to the air crews over to an onboard oxygen generating system (OBOGS).  An OBOGS is like an oxygen concentrator on steroids.  It uses 17th stage bleed air from the jet engine compressor section to produce oxygen at high volume at an average of 93% purity by passing it through a molecular sieve pressure swing adsorption (PSA) system.  If you’re interested, the remaining 7% is Argon, an inert noble gas.

So…  I’ll say it again…  Breathing 100% oxygen as an abortive for cluster headaches is very safe.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #15 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 12:32pm
 
The O2 guru's have spoken.

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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #16 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 1:45pm
 
Batch and Marc, Thanks for chiming in here.

Keep in mind that I never said O2 was a problem, just evaluating risks.

Batch, I do have some questions for you.

Regarding the mandate that all naval aviation pilots don their oxygen mask from takeoff to landing. My understanding is that this normal operating procedure was not always in place and that previously there was a high incidence of hypoxia (insufficient oxygen). A study was performed and it was found that pilots were not donning their mask at altitude, therefore the hypoxia incidents. That prompted the new requirement to don the mask at takeoff.

The other thing I understand is that oxygen flow rates are altered during flight based on altitude. Below 8000 feet, the typical throughput is below 5lpm and is mixed with ambient air. The Blue Angels not requiring masks at all below 10,000 feet is I think a good example.

I could be misinformed, but that's what I've read. Don't hesitate to correct me on that... I've only picked it up from various aviation sites. So I guess my question is why they don't just pump you with 50 lpm right off the bat?

-Chris
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #17 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 4:40pm
 
i have a question with all these

what's the difference inbetween them you have spotted in ch using
1)15lpm
2)25lpm
3)45lpm
and finally at 60 lpm?

also what's your opinion in the medical studies
suggesting using 7-15 lpm with nrb mask bring relief in 70% of the patients in 15 min.
do you find it true,false according to your own experience?
 
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #18 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 5:27pm
 
Marc, I've gotten similar answers from the docs, which is why I've been researching. I'm always a little leery when the whole medical community seems to agree as though it was somewhere in their training but aren't really sure of the reasons. Likewise, it seems like a lot of people here have success at higher rates, but I haven't seen anything regarding the risks. Just saying it's either safe or unsafe without more info drives me to my own research. Experience says a lot, and there's a lot here which lends me to think that safe is the right answer...just not there yet. My brother lost a lung and his whole life changed (not due to o2, due to pulmonary embolism).

Black, I'm at 15lpm currently and it rarely works for me, even with the optimask. That's why I'm considering going up to 20-25 lpm.

-Chris
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #19 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 5:37pm
 
Black, just from what people on the board have posted, 15 LPM seems to work for a lot of people. But there is a group, maybe 20-25%??? for whom oxygen didn't work at all at the lower flows, and kicked butt at higher levels, hopefully a few of them will chime in here. I've always used a demand valve so no flow rate issues here.

Joe
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #20 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 5:49pm
 
I was always one of the lucky ones. I had mine set at 10 lpm and could knock most down in 10 minutes.
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #21 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 6:21pm
 
black wrote on Nov 8th, 2010 at 4:40pm:
i have a question with all these

what's the difference inbetween them you have spotted in ch using
1)15lpm
2)25lpm
3)45lpm
and finally at 60 lpm?

also what's your opinion in the medical studies
suggesting using 7-15 lpm with nrb mask bring relief in 70% of the patients in 15 min.
do you find it true,false according to your own experience?
 


Black,

The difference is the amount of O2 flow available to you.

My opinion on the medical studies using 7-15lpm were not done by clusterheads, but by medical people.  They may have been using clusterheads, but "bring relief" in those studies included ANY decrease in pain, not pain being gone.  I quit using it at 15 lpm because the amount of relief I got was not worth the effort and discomfort of feeling smothered for lack of air.  I fit their criteria for "bring relief" but it was a farce,  At 15 lpm I could bring a K8 to a K5 for about 15 minutes until the hit ended, but at 25 lpm I can take a K9 to K1-K0 in 5-8 mins.  That is what I call "bring relief"  Those studies pushing a limitation of 15 lpm are borderline criminal and are definitely anti-Hippocratic oath at the least.

JMHO  You may leave the O2 regulator down and suffer.  I'll take the relief.

Jerry
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #22 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 6:24pm
 
Marc wrote on Nov 8th, 2010 at 3:51pm:
Chris,

I think that standard training in the medical community really pushes "too much O2 is bad" - so people don't stop to think and try to understand our unique requirement for CH's. I can't even count the number of times doctors and nurses have said things like:

"Wow, 45-60 lpm. Do you realize how bad that is for you?" 

When I respond:

"No, I don't think it is. Help me understand why you say that"

Then they talk in circles for awhile before realizing that they can't give me a single reason to avoid using oxygen the way we do. By all means, keep researching and share what you find.

Marc


Marc,

I think that fits in with the Dr that told a clusterhead he shouldn't use high flow oxygen because he might become addicted.  True story!

Jerry
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #23 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:18pm
 
Quote:
JMHO  You may leave the O2 regulator down and suffer.  I'll take the relief.



why would i want to do something like that?
i havent even come around such high plms and i am still working my luck with a concentrator for ecomical reasons as you already know.Meanwhile i am trying to understand the truth inbetween the contrasts i see.
you can do whatever you like as far as no one keeps stalking me around here with bad intentions and suspicion i am happy with that.
I am part of a community with mutual interest of his individuals trying to find my own way measuring at the same time all sort of informations.
thanks the rest for the answers and remind myself never to grow up becoming arrogant.

To Callico only: i am telling you this for the first and hopefully the last time.I DON'T APRECCIATE ANYONE ON MY TAIL.I am not here for your fun and entertainment pls bother someone else.I am in pain and chronic no kudzu works for me,haven't managed to abort in 5 min(i wish) thinking also to raise plm more to achieve nanoseconds.

so pls respect that.or at least try it if you can.
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Re: Interesting read on O2
Reply #24 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:31pm
 
Black,  I think we have a lack of communication here.

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