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brainpain CH.com Newbie Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 6	what lpm do you use? Apr 11^th, 2009 at 6:06pm my head pain will not respond to anything less than 15 lpm a nasel cannuler to boot, no mask has helped to date bp
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DennisM1045 CH.com Alumnus Offline One wave at a time! Posts: 3437 Haverhill, Massachusetts, USA Gender:	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #1 - Apr 11^th, 2009 at 9:00pm Not sure how you get a nasal canula to work for you. Any room air at all and I can't abort. I use a mouth tube instead of a mask. But it is still connected to a non-rebreather setup with valves and a large 3 liter bag. The bag fills while I take the next breath. 15lpm for shadows 25lpm for fully blown hits -Dennis-
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Skyhawk5

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #2 - Apr 11^th, 2009 at 10:28pm

How long does it take you to abort with that setup? Nasal canulas let in too much outside air and are considered useless for CH. To understand more read the "Help in getting oxygen prescribed" and "Oxygen terms explained"

Also on the left of this screen is "oxygen info" in yellow. A NON-REBREATHER mask, with a bag, is standard for CH aborting. The bag is so you can take full breaths of 100% pure O2.

I use O2 @ 25+lpm with the O2PTImask designed for CH use, and can abort a hit in as little as 5 minutes. 90% and more of my hits.

Best of Luck, Don
'

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Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the Beast , I have O2 so I fear him not.

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Racer1_NC CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline "Well, let's go see." Posts: 4417 Lewisville, NC Gender:	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #3 - Apr 11^th, 2009 at 11:03pm Skyhawk5 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2009 at 10:28pm: I use O2 @ 25+lpm with the O2PTImask designed for CH use, and can abort a hit in as little as 5 minutes. 90% and more of my hits. Ditto.
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ClusterChuck

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #4 - Apr 12^th, 2009 at 12:23am

brainpain wrote on Apr 11^th, 2009 at 6:06pm:

my head pain will not respond to anything less than 15 lpm
a nasel cannuler to boot, no mask has helped to date
bp

If you have gotten ANY sort of good results out of the nose canula, it will blow your socks off, as to how much better the proper mask, and usage will make! It is the difference of night and day.

I would like to talk to you about what and how you used the mask. Where do you live? Here in the USA? If so, I can call you on the phone. If not, do you have skype on your computer? MANY of us talk or chat world wide, for free using that program. It is a free download, with no crap attached to it.

Skype would also work, because I could send you pictures to go along with what we are talking about.

I would love to get you using the proper equipment, and see the difference it will make!

Chuck

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CAUTION: Do NOT smoke when using or around oxygen. Oxygen can permeate your clothing or bedding. Wait, before lighting cigarette or flame.

Keep fire extinguisher available, and charged.

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Guiseppi CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011 Posts: 12063 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA Gender:	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #5 - Apr 12^th, 2009 at 9:41pm I use a demand valve, similar to a SCUBA set up. Getting a set up that gets you pure 02 to your lungs.........the immediate effect will blow your mind!!! Joe
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan CH.com Alumnus Offline In remembrance of KingCazman. RIP Posts: 2674 Portland, OR	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #6 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 12:09am I use 30lpm to fill the bag up pronto, then i turn it down. The least I use is 12lpm. Typically its about 18 to 22lpm.
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TedtheBear

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #7 - Apr 27^th, 2009 at 7:29pm

DennisM1045 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2009 at 9:00pm:

Not sure how you get a nasal canula to work for you. Any room air at all and I can't abort.

I use a mouth tube instead of a mask. But it is still connected to a non-rebreather setup with valves and a large 3 liter bag. The bag fills while I take the next breath.

15lpm for shadows
25lpm for fully blown hits

-Dennis-

Hi!
What's the deal with the higher lpm (25 lpm)? How does this work in terms of amount of O2 taken in? I'm having a consultation on Fri. May 1, 2009 with the Pulmonary Dept. to get set up with the correct flow rate/mask. I've briefly gone over this with them, but would like to play my cards right. I know that the protocol for a non-rebreather mask is 15 lpm mininum so that the reservoir won't collapse. My neuro prescribed 7-10 lpm. This is too low for me! Besides the Pulmonary Dept. won't give me a non-rebreather mask, even though I have a 0-15 regulator, due to the neuro's prescription. It's a VA thing - I guess!?
Hope someone can provide an answer for me before Fri.
Thanks!!

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« Last Edit: Apr 27^th, 2009 at 7:31pm by TedtheBear »

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B.Baer

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #8 - Apr 27^th, 2009 at 8:09pm

Refer to the menu to the left, Oxygen info. it has all the information you'll need.

Also do yourself a favor and take a look at the lifegas O2 info and the O2ptimask.

I have no affiliation, but it's one of the best things I ever bought. I own two of them. One for the car and one for the house.

Many people here are far more versed on the proper useage then I am, but with their help, I have found it to be my primary abort for these damn things and I've been dealing with them for 15 years on and off. 15 LPM works for me but if a little is good, more is better, LOL and I think you'll find the same results. Good luck and ask all the questions you need to, great bunch of people here with a lot of collective experience.

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B.Baer

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #9 - Apr 27^th, 2009 at 9:05pm

Oh yea, brain fade, 0 to 25 LPM regulator with DIS and Demand Valve so I can use either the O2ptimask or the Demand Valve. Great way to go. Again, details outlined in the Oxygen information on the left.

Demand valves as Joe mentioned are great, and, as mentioned in the link on the left more costly. Very effective, as Chuck has stated, start out with a standard system to see how it works and make your decision from there.

I can't believe you're getting any results from a canula, I never could, as Chuck said, if that's working for you, just wait till you try the mask with the same flow rates or more. I think you'll be very surprised. All the best.

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Bob P CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Shut up Bob! Posts: 4573 Clio,California Gender:	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #10 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 7:05am 8 lpm, non-rebreather mask, abort in 7 minutes.
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Lottie CH.com Veteran Offline Posts: 112 Gender:	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #11 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 9:12am I currently use 15 lpm with a non-rebreather mask. I usually abort in 15-20 mins. I'm trying to find a regulator that can go to a higher flow rate though. Lottie
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TedtheBear

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #12 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 11:11pm

TedtheBear wrote on Apr 27^th, 2009 at 7:29pm:

DennisM1045 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2009 at 9:00pm:

Not sure how you get a nasal canula to work for you. Any room air at all and I can't abort.

I use a mouth tube instead of a mask. But it is still connected to a non-rebreather setup with valves and a large 3 liter bag. The bag fills while I take the next breath.

15lpm for shadows
25lpm for fully blown hits

-Dennis-

Hi!
What's the deal with the higher lpm (25 lpm)? How does this work in terms of amount of O2 taken in? I'm having a consultation on Fri. May 1, 2009 with the Pulmonary Dept. to get set up with the correct flow rate/mask. I've briefly gone over this with them, but would like to play my cards right. I know that the protocol for a non-rebreather mask is 15 lpm mininum so that the reservoir won't collapse. My neuro prescribed 7-10 lpm. This is too low for me! Besides the Pulmonary Dept. won't give me a non-rebreather mask, even though I have a 0-15 regulator, due to the neuro's prescription. It's a VA thing - I guess!?
Hope someone can provide an answer for me before Fri.
Thanks!!

Can someone please tell me why 25+ lpm?
The protocol for a non-rebreather mask is 15 lpm minimum. This is so that the bag won't collapse. 15 lpm is needed to maintain the reservoir. As such lower lpm is unsuitable for the mask and in many cases it has shown to be insufficient for the abort of an attack. However, I can't figure why an lpm above 15 would necessarily be better. See here:
Section 1 – A CHers Guide To Using Medical
O2
The material provided in this document is provided for information purposes only and
does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of its authors
or sponsors. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be
obtained through consultation with a licensed physician who has examined that patient
and is familiar with that patient's medical history.
30
1-6.3 What Flow Rate Should I Use?
There’s no single answer here as 100% O2 works differently
on each of us. A good rule of thumb is to start at flow
rate of 10 to 12 liters/minute and adjust lower or higher
accordingly. Studies have shown that some CHers do not
achieve an abortive effect from 100% O2 until flow rates
are 12 to 15 liters/minute. Going above 15 liters/minute
may not be beneficial as you may not be able to use all the
O2 completely at that flow rate and could be wasting good
O2 you may need later. Higher O2 flow rates will require
higher respiration rates to be effective. Given the
average tidal volume of air flowing in and out of the lungs
with each breath is one-half liter, at a flow rate of 12
liters/minute; your respiration rate should be 24
cycles/minute.The majority of the testimonials and studies of O2 users
indicate successful O2 users achieve the greatest success
in aborting a CH attack by starting the O2 treatment as
soon as they notice the onset of an attack. A lower flow
rate of 7 to 8 liters/minute may be sufficient at this
point. If the pain continues to build or you awake in the
middle of a CH attack, use the highest flow rate that has
been most effective for you during previous sessions.

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ClusterChuck

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #13 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 12:15am

OK, let me see if I am smart enough to explain this to you, so you understand. I am not smart enough to use all the goobly gook technical terms, so I will do the best I can in my dummy wordage.

In your quote, it says that the average tidal volume (amount of air you suck in) is 1/2 liter. I SO disagree with that! If you take deep breaths, you will FAR surpass that 1/2 liter mark! I think it is between 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 liter tidal flow. (It obviously varies from person to person.)

The 1/2 liter tidal flow MAY be correct, if you were quietly sitting in your recliner, and just slowly inhaling and exhaling. But how many of us can do that in the midst of a battle with the beast? When I was using the 15 LPM with the standard non-rebreathing mask, I could empty that bag without even trying. If you watch my hit, on YouTube (Watch it here: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

), you will see my bag is empty, a LOT! It is difficult to see, clearly, between my bouncing around and Luke trying to keep me from pulling my hair and banging my head, but it is there. Near the end, it is easier to see, and you can even see me putzing with the bag, to try to see if there is a kink in the bag, or some other thing wrong.

This empty bag situation can then lead to frustration and even panic. We need to try to stay as calm as possible during a hit, to prevent the escalation of the pain. We have enough pain, as it is, without something contributing to more pain.

What we are doing, when we use oxygen to abort, is causing vassal constriction (shrinkage). A higher level of oxygen in your blood stream, is a vassal constrictor. Carbon dioxide (CO₂) is a vassal dilator (expander). When you have vassal dilation, it puts pressure on the trigeminal nerve, that comes directly from your hypothalamus, which is deep in your brain, at the top of your spinal column. At one point, the blood vessel almost completely wraps around the trigeminal nerve. So with vassal dilation, it puts pressure on that nerve, which leads to your face and eye, causing the extreme pain we feel. Therefore, we need to constrict this blood vessel to remove the pressure from the trigeminal nerve.

In order to do that, we need to increase the oxygen levels, and decrease the CO₂ levels. By breathing the 100% oxygen, we help this along. Normal room air contains only about 21% oxygen, and most of the rest is nitrogen. We need to take FULL and DEEP breaths, to make sure that the only gas in your lungs is oxygen, then we need to exhale fully and completely so that all CO₂ is expelled. Hyperventilating on pure oxygen forces our body to almost stop producing the CO₂ (which, for our purposes, is good), and fills our system with pure oxygen. By doing this, many times, you can abort a mid level hit (KIP5-7) in as little as three minutes.

This process of deep breathing and especially hyperventilating is just not possible with the normal bag that comes with the standard non-rebreather mask, and the 15LPM flow rate. Using a 3 liter bag, and the 25LPM regulator, you do NOT run into the "empty bag syndrome" as easily, and can abort much faster, and efficiently.

Did my long winded explanation help at all?

If not, let me know, and ask more questions, and I will do my best to answer them.

Chuck, the oxygen junkie

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CAUTION: Do NOT smoke when using or around oxygen. Oxygen can permeate your clothing or bedding. Wait, before lighting cigarette or flame.

Keep fire extinguisher available, and charged.

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TedtheBear CH.com Junior Offline Posts: 81 Palmdale, CA Gender:	Re: what lpm do you use? Reply #14 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 12:30am Hey Chuck, that'll "get er done" - thanks for that! I'm copying it for my consultation with Pulmonary Dept. on Friday. I'm currently using 15 lpm (altough I was prescribed 7-10) and the abort time is 15-20 min. It seems more like 15-20 hours though.
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Pixie-elf

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busting is the best!

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #15 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 4:07am

TedtheBear wrote on Apr 29^th, 2009 at 12:30am:

Hey Chuck, that'll "get er done" - thanks for that! I'm copying it for my consultation with Pulmonary Dept. on Friday.
I'm currently using 15 lpm (altough I was prescribed 7-10) and the abort time is 15-20 min. It seems more like 15-20 hours though.

If you're using the regular non-rebreather mask, I HIGHLY reccomend the O2ptimask that a lot of us are using. It comes with the option to use it with a mouthpiece, rather than a mask.

I'm using 15lpm, and before that mask, my abort times were 20-30 minutes.

Now?

I get relief almost immidiately. I've been able to knock an attack down within 10 minutes, if I get on it early enough, I can do it in 5.

This mask / mouthpiece makes a HELL of a difference. I don't even need a higher flow rate. I do just fine on 15lpm, but the 3 liter bag makes it so if I need to, I can pull in a full, deep breath. I didn't think it'd make THAT much of a difference but it has.

My Mom broke my mask by accident (it fell, hit the floor, broke.) so I switched to the mouthpiece... I'll have to wait until we have money to get another mask, but the mouthpiece works just fine.

PFDAN
Mystina

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DennisM1045

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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #16 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 4:27am

Pixie-elf wrote on Apr 29^th, 2009 at 4:07am:

My Mom broke my mask by accident (it fell, hit the floor, broke.) so I switched to the mouthpiece... I'll have to wait until we have money to get another mask, but the mouthpiece works just fine.

PFDAN
Mystina

The mouth piece is all I use. Cheap masks in the beginning and facial hair got in the way of a good facial seal. Too much room air getting in.

With the mouth piece zero room air and none of the claustrophobic feelings. A 25lpm regulator and a 3 liter bag on my clustermasx rig.

-Dennis-

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Where there is life, there is hope.
Where there is Oxygen, you must use proper caution.
So be safe, don't smoke while using O2. Kill the pain and not yourself.

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TedtheBear

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Palmdale, CA
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Re: what lpm do you use?
Reply #17 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 9:23am

Pixie-elf wrote on Apr 29^th, 2009 at 4:07am:

If you're using the regular non-rebreather mask, I HIGHLY reccomend the O2ptimask that a lot of us are using. It comes with the option to use it with a mouthpiece, rather than a mask.

I'm using 15lpm, and before that mask, my abort times were 20-30 minutes.

Now?

I get relief almost immidiately. I've been able to knock an attack down within 10 minutes, if I get on it early enough, I can do it in 5.

This mask / mouthpiece makes a HELL of a difference. I don't even need a higher flow rate. I do just fine on 15lpm, but the 3 liter bag makes it so if I need to, I can pull in a full, deep breath. I didn't think it'd make THAT much of a difference but it has.

PFDAN
Mystina

Hi Mystina,
Thanks! I'm hearing nothing but praises for the O2ptimask. I just might be getting one in the very near future. The reduction in time that you mentioned definitely got my attention.
PFDAN2U2

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