Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Clusterheadaches.com
 
Search box updated Dec 3, 2011... Search ch.com with Google!
  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegisterEvent CalendarBirthday List  
 





Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion (Read 16228 times)
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Feb 15th, 2009 at 10:23pm
 
Over the next two messages I will describe an hipothesis developed over the years and whose application has given me good results.

I apologize in advance in first place by the length of messages, is a work of years that I have summarized as much as possible. I also want to apologize to those who think it is a presumption on my part to publish it, please understand, it's my way of combating CH.

Nor do I intend to give advice to anyone, only check if possible my scenario with other ideas and experiences. Just that.

Finally say that the translation is half automatic, half of mine, so I feel that it must be awful.

Thank you.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #1 - Feb 15th, 2009 at 10:27pm
 
Lectures on the cluster headache

Foreword

The aim of this paper is to present a working hypothesis which seeks to explain the phenomenon of CR in every sense, with the sole idea of establishing mechanisms to combat this disease. The greater or lesser success of these methods can be applied directly to determine the reliability of the assumptions.
As the author of this hypothesis is not anywhere near the knowledge or minimum qualifications required for membership of a document of this nature, it should be interpreted merely as a fun “pseudo-scientific document" and all events in the discharge must be considered under this perspective.

The facts and statements that are incorporated in this document are the result of years of careful reading of studies of many kinds. There is no documentation of the sources of such information or its reliability, have just been collected over the years in memory of the author, so absolutely no valid documents. However I urge the reader to accept without more generously in a first reading to get an overview of the working hypothesis, which is what matters, leaving for a second phase, the questioning of the information contained herein.

While seemingly existing documentation on the cluster headache is very extensive, in fact most of it is recurring. Known and classified the disease for decades, most reports are nothing but collections or synthesis of other existing reports. Most of the information in this text comes from psychiatric studies, particularly relating to anxiety, depression or stress, general studies on migraine with fibromyalgia syndrome or Dawn, and even issues such pilgrims as breeding animals or the study of their migration.

Mechanism of the crisis

Before we can hypothesize about the cause of the CR, we must discuss the mechanism by which the characteristic "crisis" or "attacks" of pain occur.

In general, there is a growing consensus that crises are essentially in the inflammation of the trigeminal nerve due to pressure of the cerebral arteries dilated on the nerve. The inflamed nerve contribute to the flow of blood, through the walls of an artery, with a substance called CGRP peptide (calcitonin gen-related peptide), and this peptide and other activate platelets and mast cells, producing a discharge of serotonin and histamine, vasodilator, which would maintain the status of vasodilatation of the artery with consequent compression of the nerve, thus creating a feedback system during the crisis.
There are many other theories, including the question of whether it is before, the chicken or the egg, that is, if the nerve is inflamed for other reasons who initiates vasodilation, or whether, by contrast, is really the first vasodilatation phenomenon and inflammation resulting from it. Raised here because by accepting the first hypothesis that this  may be the real mechanism of the crisis, and we began to build the global scenario. We will also accept, as we shall see below, which need not have such a disquisition of the chicken and the egg, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Also we accept the idea as a second hypothesis, as expressed by the creators of sumatriptan, that vasodilatation is caused by the momentary lack of adequate levels of serotonin, which would be responsible for acting on 5HT1D receptors in the walls of the cerebral arteries, responsible for vasoconstriction. Sumatriptan was in fact designed as a selective agonist of serotonin, that means, serving as it, specifically acting on these receptors to produce vasoconstriction, which should have been produced by at least absent or inadequate serotonin.

Because of the CR

Either way, it is clear that the trigeminal nerve becomes inflamed in many circumstances in CR patients and not in a healthy individual. One might imagine that the neurochemical systems that regulate vasoconstriction and / or vasodilation of the cranial arteries operate incorrectly in CR patients, or, in other words, the CR patients suffering from excessive vasodilatation and that this would be the cause of the problem.

However, it is public knowledge that a patient may suffer a CR of a sudden crisis, or even start a cycle, by a direct action on the trigeminal nerve or its branches. Examples include oral infections, extractions mouth parts, the mere application of a pre-anesthesia tronculares manipulation, otitis and even trauma. If a direct action on the trigeminal nerve can cause a crisis immediately, without any intervention by neurochemical processes, we must conclude that the trigeminal nerve is damaged in some way.

Strengthens our hypothesis the sidedness of the event. If the processes were strictly neurochemical it would be difficult to explain that it only affects one side, and always the same. However, the consideration of physiological sensitivity of the nerve can explain this fact with absolute ease. We do not have the two sides never equal, there will always be a trigeminal more sensitive than the other and it will be the first to be inflamed.

The determination of whether damage is due to friction with the bone structure, damage or sensitivity of the neurons themselves, or any other cause, is outside of this dissertation. It would therefore be the primary cause of CR in this scenario: a particular sensitivity of the trigeminal nerve.

A sensitive trigeminal would ease to ignite at a vasodilatation bit severe, and even normal, in any case depending on the degree of sensitivity of the nerve and the intensity of the vasodilation. These two parameters are those that determine the method and level of suffering of each individual disease: being the sensitivity different for each individual, and although it may also theorized about the possibility of a sensitivity fall, it’s a stable parameter. By contrast, serotonin levels necessary to achieve a vasoconstriction that does not lead to inflammation are much more variable, and therefore, patients in CR are fully exposed and directly dependent on the levels of this neurotransmitter.

The facts explained on the basis of the hypothesis

We’ll begin to use our hypotheses to explain each of the facts relating to the CR.

One-Sided

From the hypothesis we can now easily explain why the disease manifests itself on one side, usually in the same, why the existence of changed hand and their rarity, and even the obvious that persons subject to unilateral surgery begin to suffer the crisis on the other side.

As we have said in passing, and will discuss later, when an inflammation of one of the two trigeminal begins, there is a release of serotonin from platelets. The released serotonin, which will finally end the crisis by vasoconstriction, reverses from the first moment the drop in the level and prevents the other nerve to be affected. This explains in a simple way the one-sidedness of the CR, although in theory there could be some cases, very unlikely, in which inflammation began almost exactly at the same time on both sides, then it would result in a bilateral crisis.

Neither holds any mystery in this scenario the fact of changing the side of the crisis. Some people may have similar sensitivity to both nerves and could ignite one or other without distinction, although it would not be normal. This group is small because it is a coincidence as the two eyes have the same height, just like seeing or hearing same level from both sides, or have both hands identical.

We explain that even within this already small group of people with similar sensitivity on both sides, as is normal that once a cycle on one side, stay there, and just because he has already undergone trigeminal daily sessions compression and inflammation is more sensitive and more likely to be the first to catch fire again.

People who receives stimulation by surgical techniques, or other padding to help one of the trigeminal to avoid inflammation, are just protecting the weaker of the two, this which started the crisis and thus protected the other. As serotonin levels drop to the level required by the other trigeminal, and without the surgered trigeminal intervention, the crisis will just change the side. We theorize that, since this is less sensitive than the other trigeminal surgery, the crisis may be less important.

Circadian rhythm

The explanation for the circadian rhythm is very simple, and that serotonin levels in the body follow a daily rhythm, marked by changes in daylight by the body directly on the retina (even without light, the day exists for the body but not 24 hours, just some 25 ½, this why “Circadian” in latin, “Circa die”, near a day). The level is highest at noon, and descends slowly as the day goes on. As we approach the darkness, we begin to transform the serotonin into melatonin, and its  levels descends steeply into the night, reaching minimum at mid-dark. After that is replenished very slowly and rises again rapidly from the time we woke up and brought to light the eye, reaching back to maximum (midday) and back to start.

This explains why the most common and practically unavoidable, are crisis at night, especially during sleep. However, if our levels are really inadequate, in the morning, we can also suffer a crisis.

The hypothesis can make predictions about the multiple crises. As already mentioned, while suffering a crisis the platelets release serotonin, which acts sooner or later to produce adequate vasoconstriction and abort the process. After the crisis, the platelet re-capture the serotonin they had released, and when it comes back to the previous level, another crisis will begin.

Exacerbated this process by the reduction of serotonin throughout the day, we could theorize that anyone who suffers a crisis in the first hours of maximum levels, at the zenith of the day, must suffer more crises, because the standards of the rest of the day will always be lower . The elapsed time between two crisis is given by the time it takes platelets to re-capture that released serotonin and reduced to the extent that decreases serotonin in the body. Thus, the time between crisis should decrease as the day progresses, and minimum during the night.

Those who have high average levels, will face only a crisis everyday, in the middle of the night, preferably during sleep. Who has the crisis relatively quickly, well before bedtime, would run greater risk of repeating during sleep. Also it is expected that the time of serotonin reuptake by platelets is proportional to the time of release, that is, the duration of the crisis, so longer crisis should be more spaced in time, and shorter, more together in time.

These considerations are made with the circadian rhythm of serotonin as the only consideration, but not so far from it. Later we will see many other factors that affect serotonin levels and thus the behavior of the disease.

Rhythm circanual

Something that was already known, but it was not scientifically proven, is that the rate of serotonin varies with the seasons. The publication in September 2008 of some studies conducted in Toronto between 1999 and 2003 to a sample of 88 individuals has shown for the first time, no doubt, that the potential binding of serotonin transport are higher in autumn and winter than in spring and summer. Greater potential for the transport union, increased reuptake, less free serotonin available for neuronal transmission.
However, the study shows two things. The first serotonin levels are markedly lower in autumn and winter than in spring and summer. The second, more exciting, there is an inverse correlation between total hours of daylight and time of the sunset with these levels.

So with this, it is easy to predict that arriving the fall and moving  to lower levels of serotonin, some patients begin to experience difficulty, and as the winter comes, the other. Since February, the levels are restored gradually.

Again, there’s other factors involved here that can cause cycles in summer and prevent cycles in winter, but it is already obvious now that a great factor is that the fall / winter, or rather the hours of daylight and sunset hours are a increased factor for the start of the crisis.

Says study (conducted in the northern hemisphere, in Toronto) that in the southern hemisphere should occur equally in respect of the seasons, but with a rotation of six months of the calendar. He also said that he had found a small influence of moisture and age, and virtually none of the temperature.

Episodic and chronic

With our hypothesis in hand, it's easy to settle between people and people with episodic CR CR chronic. The episodic people are those whose serotonin levels are usually sufficient, but a circumstance in which an arrival time to drop these levels begin to engage in crisis and have insufficient levels until the end of the causes why the period of decline, forming the "cycles". The period is par season, but it can also come from other factors such as stress.

The chronically ill are simply those whose levels of serotonin are inadequate throughout the year. It seems valid to be considered that these patients would have more chance of remission in spring and summer and, with medium levels so low, they should be much more likely to suffer multiple crises, especially in autumn and winter. As a corollary, it follows that those who suffer from multiple daily crises, are proving insufficient levels, so it would in turn be more likely to become chronic with others who have more levels, for example, the people who have just a one night crisis.

In any case, given this scenario, there are no chronic or episodic, crisis is always suffered when serotonin levels are insufficient and will forward when eleven. The status of each one is always the circumstance of the moment, so that expressions such as "move to chronic" or "chronic", lack of the meaning they have in other areas of medicine, where the essential is the future remain. Here, a so-called chronic could stop their attacks from one day to another if it can raise its levels of serotonin.

Abortion: Oxygen and triptans

The only two known abortifacients, leaving aside various drugs, the triptans and oxygen. In neither case is known with certainty of their action, although it is accepted that in both cases it’s due to produce significant vasoconstriction, which would always end a crisis that is not excessive vasodilatation

As a crisis begins with a low level of serotonin, and that this level is not replenished by any means, only to be expected after the use of one or the other is that after a while and dismissed its impact, the crisis is restarted and even more strongly, as for the beneficial effects of the vasoconstrictor serotonin levels continued to decline.

There are two possibilities for this happening. The first is that in the time it takes to abort the crisis, it has freed enough to replenish serotonin levels and thus do not fall into a new crisis. This is more possible in patients of a single crisis that in the multiple, because this brief on first can allow replacement levels enough to not incur in another crises until the next day, making it possible more than a partial replacement of vasoconstriction over time are sufficient to avoid a reply. The latter, however, still suffering from the crisis not entirely replenished enough to prevent the next, so that the suffering resulting from the partial replacement of a crisis aborted early, can hardly avoid the effects following cessation of abortion.

Another possibility is that the use of an abortion is performed at night so that when the effect ceases, the levels of serotonin are replenished by its daily cycle.

Conclusions

Seems not to have found a cure here. If the problem is caused by a nerve, say, faulty, we are very far from being able to fix it with the knowledge of medicine today. So put this hypothesis to be adopted in one or more of the following measures:

1) Improving the status and situation of the nerve.
2) Increased levels of serotonin
3) Preventing falls in serotonin

Will be in another document in which I will enumerate and explore the means by which these objectives could be achieved, but we can not ignore the undisputed fact that serotonin levels in the body are good (except dysfunction), however by a good reason that currently only the body knows. Artificial lift will always disrupt our delicate neurohormonal balance, with unpredictable consequences.

There is also the added difficulty of homeostasis, the actual and expected reaction of the body who will try sooner or later to regain its previous situation.

It should, however, take a first step, without risk, and would be beneficial, measures to ensure that the body produces all that want to produce serotonin, ie, to avoid any gaps that are hindering the normal process the body. Not expected here, trying to cover deficits, homeostasis.

Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #2 - Feb 15th, 2009 at 10:29pm
 
Introduction

We start from the assumption that the central problem is a particular sensitivity of the trigeminal nerve, this will produce the inflammation even with not excessive, high, vasodilation levels.

In this situation, the levels of serotonin would be critical for avoiding crises, since it is responsible for vasoconstriction of the major cranial arteries through its receptors 5HT1D. But in this situation must be very vigilant that our efforts to increase levels of serotonin are against the smooth and delicate balance that maintains the body, so the body will fight, and successfully, against the changes that we make (homeostasis) in many ways, even to reduce the density of receptors, so that in the medium term, the battle is lost.

In principle, therefore, the chances would be at least the following:

1) Stabilize the trigeminal, reducing its sensitivity. Search methods or drugs that lead to improvements in the nervous system.
2) To increase the synthesis of serotonin. Based on the cycle of production, supply of raw materials and conditions necessary for their synthesis.
3) Avoid the overall decline in levels. Avoiding the factors which, even with an unknown mechanism, can reduce their levels.
4) Avoid storage. Some substances (SSRIs) may compete for transport by increasing serotonin free.
5) Improve the effectiveness of its action. Increasing the density or sensitivity of their receptors 5HT1D responsible for vasoconstriction.
6) Reduce its transformation into melatonin.

The synthesis of serotonin

Serotonin is synthesized in the body from tryptophan in a transformation that includes an intermediate product prior to serotonin, 5-HTP, and a derivative of it, melatonin. The amino acid tryptophan is an "essential", it means that it  need to be ingested in the diet because the body is unable to synthesize them from other substances.

Only the 2-5% of tryptophan is dedicated to producing serotonin. Other routes include the conversion of Tryptophan in vitamin B3, if needed, and a majority way, the degradation through the T-Pirrolasa, which degrades tryptophan preventing it is transformed into serotonin. There are at least two factors that directly influence the segregation of T-Pirrolasa.

The first is a self regulatory mechanism that increases the production of T-Pirrolasa to an excess of tryptophan.

The second is the presence of cortisol. Cortisol is generated in situations of stress, and its main mission is to provide glucose to the brain even at the expense of the death of any other cell group and regardless of any other circumstance. The problem is that your cortisol level goes up quickly, but it’s slow to download, so if the situations of "stress" are continuing daily, we can reach a state of permanent high levels of cortisol, which is essentially what qualifies it as a disease of stress. Cortisol affects the synthesis of serotonin by increasing the production of T-Pirrolasa and, moreover, increases the avidity of its reuptake platelets, increasing storage and decreasing free serotonin.

Finally, in the absence of daylight, the body begins to transform the free serotonin to melatonin, reducing serotonine to minimum levels at mid-day diary of darkness, with maximum levels at mid-point of light daily.

Proposed method

In light of this scenario, the start of a cycle is not due to a single cause but a combination of a large number of possible circumstances leading to the decrease in serotonin. Chemicals such as spicy additives, mature cheeses, etc.., Would have their own mechanisms for inducing the crisis remained out of this discussion.

If we manage to remove from the equation one or more causes of declining levels, we could improve the quality of life, and in some cases, even avoid cycles. This will depend on how each has reduced these levels. The chronic, for example, have extremely low levels all year, so to them, this dynamic could promote pain-free periods, recessions, especially in the most favorable seasons for this: spring and summer

Please note: this is a theoretical discussion, if you want to implement it should do so with the knowledge and monitoring of a medical practitioner ..

Stabilization of the trigeminal

Besides the possibility of ingesting drugs that improve and protect the nervous system, little to suggest this. Should be avoided, at least, direct actions on the nerve through its branches, acting quickly to any pain in the ear to prevent the progression of infection and keeping  your teeth healthy, avoiding interventions in when in cycle.

Increased synthesis of serotonin

In general terms, not to deepen, the main elements involved in the synthesis of serotonin are: Tryptophan (precursor), and vitamins B2, B3 and B6, and magnesium. As with any chemical process, the amount of product obtained depends on the scarcest of the components involved, which is called the "limiting factor." We must therefore raise the levels of our limiting factor, but how to know whom or what each one?.

The proposal is to improve the diet to the disposal of tryptophan (banana, whole grains, turkey, eggs, milk, ...) to take a vitamin B-complex that includes significant doses of B2, B3 and B6 and Magnesium supplement, all at a time.

The effects should be visible immediately, at most two or three days. If this crisis does not improve, probably all of these components were well and their levels of intake is useless, because the limiting factors were endogenous (eg, T-Hydroxylase essential), otherwise there will be time for eating better and selectively determine which, or which were actually the limiting  factors.

Nevertheless, so that if later cycles suffer more intense than usual, repeating the intake to ensure that this road is completed.

Prevent the overall decline in levels

There are two main causes of the reduction in serotonin levels when the elements necessary for its synthesis are available. The first, scientificly studied, and with unknown cause, the arrival of autumn / winter and with them the decline in hours of light and reducing the hours of sunset, compounded by the energy savings time change. The second, the increased presence of T-Pirrolasa (which degrades tryptophan otherwise), mainly due to excesses of Tryptophan and the presence of cortisol.

The first case, the winter could be avoided with full spectrum artificial lighting and adequate lumens. I initiated the investigation of this route, but unfortunately will have to wait for next fall to do such tests.

The second is the greatest number of cases. The most direct is the stress that generates a direct cortisol. I must clarify here that I do not mean to stress and strengthened, but also point to moments in what could be defined as "the observation that in the near future, near or far, we will have a lost of quality of life." This simple observation leads the generation of cortisol. Fall outside the scope of this shock, strong emotions or impressions. We talked about things such as petty nuisance bear situations (heavy conversations, sounds, images, etc..) Or overwhelmed by the intense observation of the advent of serious future problems (loss of job, leaving a couple, including the arrival of a crisis ).

The last factor is hypoxia, decreased oxygen, which immediately generated large amounts of cortisol. Hypoxia occurs in many cases, such as during sleep (especially in the REM stage), and it’s facilitated by smoking. Thus, the recommendations in this chapter are:

-      Protect the helpless. Take things more calmly, take the adverse circumstances as soon as possible, making decisions and determinations to be taken, but without thinking about it for a while.
- Avoid air pressure decreases. Flying by plane or travel to high altitude geographical points.
- Avoid exposure to polluted environments in any manner, including the worsening air. Fumes, odors or unpleasant penetrating, saturated local small or poorly ventilated areas.
- You can fit here the use of products such as Anacervix (vincamine + Piracetam) or extract of Ginkgo Biloba, which seem to have special properties to improve oxygenation neuronal (check with your doctor)

Avoid storage

The storage of serotonin is produced primarily by its reuptake by 5HT2A receptor / C. Platelets are the main resource of reuptake of serotonin. The intensity of this uptake increases in the autumn / winter, promoting the decrease of free serotonin. The measures in this important issue go through the use of pharmaceutical products (selective inhibitors of serotonin reuptake or SSRIs) more or less powerful:

- A first approximation fairly innocuous (sold without prescription) may be the St. John's Wort (Hypericine), which is also attributed to lower cortisol properties, which would give an extra help in case stress.

- The second, a direct ingestion of SSRIs would be more powerful, of which the best known is the fuoxetina (Prozac). Check with your doctor.

Improve the effectiveness of its action

This section would be to increase the number (density) of receptors 5HT1D or improve their functioning (increase sensitivity). They say that’s what Kudzu does, and for nearly a year, Lilly said the’ve synthesized a peptide that achieve this effect, watch for a year and study its possible sale. We still must wait.

Reduce its transformation into melatonin.

This is where the ambient light acts. Each day at sunset, the body begins to produce melatonin, which increases at the expense of its precursor, serotonin, which drops quickly, reaching minimum in the first REM stage of sleep. This process seems to be conditioned not only by light but also by the presence of intense magnetic fields that hinder this transformation. Given that magnetic fields must be all about, I can think of only one recommendation in this chapter.

Sleep with light. It is shown that the synthesis of melatonin is less if light is still perceived in the eye during sleep. Therefore, avoid sleeping in total darkness, do so with higher clarity that allows you to get to sleep. Ensure that daylight reaches your eyes as soon as possible. It suggests sleeping with the blinds open under natural light, night and day.

Other methods pharmacists (including external ingestion of melatonin synthesis to prevent internal synthesis), I do not want to mention here.

Homeostasis

With all this, there are many ways of combating the CR, most of them can run concurrently. But let us not forget that the body no longer fits, for example, synthesize substances that are provided externally, just  to compensate for the increase. In this sense it is curious to note that the mechanism  of the action of intake B3 or melatonin would be just as homeostasis, the body would cease to synthesize to equilibrate thereby not spending  tryptophan (case B3) or serotonin (if melatonin ).

Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 9:13am
 
Interesting - will have to digest it over time. I can see that lots of thought has gone into it, and it seems to be a good starting point for discussion.

The one thing that doesn't fit entirely is the "reduce its (serotonin's) transformation to melatonin" ... first, we know that melatonin can be a good treatment. Second, we know that most clusterheads have low levels of melatonin.  Third (and this is personal, but might apply to some others), I pretty much always get hit in summer - when days are longest and my exposure to light is greatest.

Also, I would add an imbalance of excitatory/inhibitory neurotransmitters to the picture.  Gaba and taurine make nerves less likely to fire, while glutamate/nmda make nerves more likely to fire, and an imbalance here makes the trigeminal less stable in CH in my understanding.
Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Guiseppi
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011


Posts: 12063
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA
Gender: male
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #4 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 9:48am
 
First, thanks for taking the massive amount of time it must have taken to research and produce this thesis. WOW. Wish I had the technical background to participate in this kind of forum. Nothing but good can come out of a discussion like this. It's this kind of research that'll someday stumble on a real cure.

Joe
Back to top
  

"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #5 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:14am
 
You mention T-Hydroxylase as something that changes tryptophan/serotonin levels. What about other enzymes that do the same? Drinking alcohol greatly increases liver tryptophan pyrrolase activity (which breaks down tryptophan), and alcohol is the most identified trigger.  Also, there is tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase and Indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase.

Along with lowering the levels of tryptophan and serotonin, these enzymes also create new chemicals (kynurenine and its related compounds like kynurenic acid and 3-hydroxykynurenine). These kynurenines may have their own role in promoting CH. For instance, the wikipedia page says that kynurenine is associated with tics, and I tend to get twitches (maybe tics?) before and during a cycle. Coincidence, maybe, but twitches and tics can be a sign that the nerve fires too much.

Some people have reported benefits from 5-htp to increase tryptophan/serotonin, but others get hit harder when taking 5-htp. This could be from an increase in kynurenines that result from taking 5-htp alone, when the body is set to produce kynurenine.

Random association that floats to mind: Indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase can be inhibited by propolis (bee glue) - this might be a potential therapy, although if there is pollen in the propolis (unpurified), it could cause allergies.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:31pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #6 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:34am
 
You link hypoxia to cortisol, here is another possible link: there is a marked increase in kynurenines after hypoxia or ischemia. Indoleamine 2,3 oxidase increases after oxygen deficit.

Niacin has been suggested to inhibit kynurenine synthesis.





Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #7 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:41am
 
This abstract was written in a style that is a little difficult ... but possibly useful info when decoded.

Quote:
Immunobiology. 2009;214(2):129-34. Epub 2008 Aug 26.

    Immunomodulatory effects of Turkish propolis: changes in neopterin release and tryptophan degradation.
    Girgin G, Baydar T, Ledochowski M, Schennach H, Bolukbasi DN, Sorkun K, Salih B, Sahin G, Fuchs D.

    Division of Biological Chemistry, Biocenter, Innsbruck Medical University, Innsbruck, Austria.

    In most of the diseases which are considered to benefit from propolis, cellular immune reaction is activated, neopterin levels in body fluids are increased and enhanced tryptophan degradation is observed. In this study, the immunomodulatory effects of six Turkish propolis samples were evaluated by using the in vitro model of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC). Concentrations of neopterin, tryptophan, kynurenine and pro-inflammatory cytokines, tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) and interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) were determined and also the viability of the cells was checked with trypan blue and MTT [3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyltetrazolium bromide] test. In PBMC treated with mitogen phytohaemagglutinin, neopterin production and tryptophan degradation by enzyme indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO) as well as release of cytokines was significantly enhanced and upon treatment with propolis extracts all these effects were dose-dependently suppressed. Results show an immunomodulatory effect of propolis extracts which includes down-regulation of IDO activity. IDO enzyme is considered to play an important role in the development of immunodeficiency and neuropsychiatric symptoms in patient with chronic inflammation. The suppression of tryptophan degradation by propolis extracts may therefore be related with some of its beneficial health properties in humans.

    PMID: 19167991 [PubMed - in process]
Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #8 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:52am
 
5-htp or tryptophan supplements are most likely to help when tryptophan levels are low due to some dietary or absorptive factor, like lactose or fructose intolerance, celiac disease, or other digestive problems. 

Quote:
Scand J Gastroenterol. 2001 Apr;36(4):367-71.

    Fructose malabsorption is associated with decreased plasma tryptophan.

    Ledochowski M, Widner B, Murr C, Sperner-Unterweger B, Fuchs D.

    Dept. of Clinical Nutrition, Institute for Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of Innsbruck, Austria. maximilian.ledochowski@uibk.ac.at

    BACKGROUND: Fructose malabsorption is characterized by the inability to absorb fructose efficiently. As a consequence fructose reaches the colon where it is broken down by bacteria to short fatty acids, CO2, H2, CH4 and lactic acid. Bloating, cramps, osmotic diarrhea and other symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome are the consequence and can be seen in about 50% of fructose malabsorbers. Recently it was found that fructose malabsorption was associated with early signs of depressive disorders. Therefore, it was investigated whether fructose malabsorption is associated with abnormal tryptophan metabolism. METHODS: Fifty adults (16 men, 34 women) with gastrointestinal discomfort were analyzed by measuring breath hydrogen concentrations after an oral dose of 50 g fructose after an overnight fast. They were classified as normals or fructose malabsorbers according to their breath H2 concentrations. All patients filled out a Beck depression inventory questionnaire. Blood samples were taken for plasma tryptophan and kynurenine measurements. RESULTS: Fructose malabsorption (breath deltaH2 production >20 ppm) was detected in 35 of 50 individuals (70%). Subjects with fructose malabsorption showed significantly lower plasma tryptophan concentrations and significantly higher scores in the Beck depression inventory compared to those with normal fructose absorption. CONCLUSIONS: Fructose malabsorption is associated with lower tryptophan levels that may play a role in the development of depressive disorders. High intestinal fructose concentration seems to interfere with L-tryptophan metabolism, and it may reduce availability of tryptophan for the biosynthesis of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine). Fructose malabsorption should be considered in patients with symptoms of depression and disturbances of tryptophan metabolism.

    PMID: 11336160 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #9 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:53pm
 
I think we should talk a little about the metabolism of tryptophan to clarify the situation. Tryptophan can be mainly degraded at intestine, liver and brain in several "ways":

1) Way of serotonin and melatonin. Tryptophan is oxidized by the enzyme Tryptophan hydroxylase-(T-hydroxylase) to form 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5HTP), which is decarboxyled by decarboxylase to 5-hydroxytryptamine (5HT or serotonin). Finally, serotonin may be degraded by MAO to 5-hydroxy-Indalate (5HIAA) or transformed by action of hydroxy-indole-methyltransferase to melatonin.

2) Way of kynurenina. Tryptophan is oxidized by the T-2 ,3-dioxygenase (also called T-dioxygenase or T-pirrolasa) or Indolamine 2.3-dioxigenasa to produce different products for all with the kynurenina.

3) Way of indoles. It is produced by the action of bacteria in the gut.

4) Production of B3 (niacin, nicotinic acid). Used 50 mg. tryptophan to produce 1 mg. B3. The need of tryptophan daily minimum stipulated by 175-250 mg. The Western diet provides 600-1200 mg .. The daily requirement of B3 is set to about 16 mg. To produce this amount would be spent 800 mg. tryptophan, almost all of ingestion.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #10 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 8:19pm
 
monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 9:13am:
The one thing that doesn't fit entirely is the "reduce its (serotonin's) transformation to melatonin" ... first, we know that melatonin can be a good treatment. Second, we know that most clusterheads have low levels of melatonin.  Third (and this is personal, but might apply to some others), I pretty much always get hit in summer - when days are longest and my exposure to light is greatest.

First, melatonin is a good treatment because his administration avoids the use of serotonin in their production. Proof of this is a testimony of someone who, after consuming melatonin during two years, free of crisis and unable to obtain it, was recovering years the pace of that dream had always been normal, and suddenly it was not. And it took a long time to recover with normal sleep, and it was because the body was accustomed to receive it and had abandoned their production. Serve this testimony for those using today.
Second, one can not have good levels of melatonin with low levels of serotonin, since the former is produced from the second. It's normal.
Third, the study concerns the potential union of serotonin transporter. This potential is an important factor in the levels of free serotonin, but not the only or decisive. Their synthesis is more important than the level of storage. Give figures for the potential binding of a carrier increases 15/20% in autumn and winter. But the daily cycle decreases by 80% the level of midday at overnight. By this I mean that the station aid, but there are many, many causes of lower levels. I myself always have a winter cycle and often a more gentle cycle in March / April.

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 9:13am:
Also, I would add an imbalance of excitatory/inhibitory neurotransmitters to the picture.  Gaba and taurine make nerves less likely to fire, while glutamate/nmda make nerves more likely to fire, and an imbalance here makes the trigeminal less stable in CH in my understanding.

Had already said that the chemicals away from the discussion, it would be great to try to explain the mechanism by which drugs we are prescribed. But I lack the capacity to do so, although I will continue studying and I do not have too much free time.

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:14am:
You mention T-Hydroxylase as something that changes tryptophan/serotonin levels. What about other enzymes that do the same? Drinking alcohol greatly increases liver tryptophan pyrrolase activity (which breaks down tryptophan), and alcohol is the most identified trigger.  Also, there is tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase and Indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase.

Tryptophan 2,3-dioxigenasa is pirrolasa-tryptophan. It's called the two ways. The Indolamina 2.3-dioxigenasa (IDO) is controlled by the immune system. Do not get that far, at least for now.

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:14am:
Along with lowering the levels of tryptophan and serotonin, these enzymes also create new chemicals (kynurenine and its related compounds like kynurenic acid and 3-hydroxykynurenine).

Rising levels of kinuerinina shows, however, that this tryptophan is metabolized by this route and therefore is decreasing serotonin pathway.

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:14am:
Some people have reported benefits from 5-htp to increase tryptophan/serotonin, but others get hit harder when taking 5-htp. This could be from an increase in kynurenines that result from taking 5-htp alone, when the body is set to produce kynurenine.

No, the kynurenina precursor is tryptophan, no 5-HTP. The 5-HTP can only lead to serotonin.

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:14am:
Random association that floats to mind: Indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase can be inhibited by propolis (bee glue) - this might be a potential therapy, although if there is pollen in the propolis (unpurified), it could cause allergies.

Know at this time which of the two enzymes that cause the path of kynurenina was the most active. I do not know what the propolis.

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:34am:
You link hypoxia to cortisol, here is another possible link: there is a marked increase in kynurenines after hypoxia or ischemia. Indoleamine 2,3 oxidase increases after oxygen deficit.

This is a consequence and not a cause. The cortisol Hypoxia occurs, it raises the T-pirrolasa and because it produced more kinureninas

monty wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 10:34am:
Niacin has been suggested to inhibit kynurenine synthesis.

If there is an abundant presence of B3, tryptophan is not used for their synthesis, and thus remains free to both the tryptophan kynurenina to the path of the hydroxy-indoles. I can't agree this point.
-----------------
After all this, and dealt with a little more depth, it is clear that tryptophan we eat can become kuynurenina, serotonin, or niacin (B3). We must therefore avoid the transformation in B3 (eating) and kynurenina (avoiding the T-Pirrolasa, which, incidentally, is not only due to increased cortisol, but also of pyridoxine).

Regards
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
ninja mom
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline




Posts: 586
Gender: female
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #11 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 12:29am
 
Its going to take a bit of time to study this.  An impressive amount of research, sir.  Thank you.

PFDAN y'all
kathy
Back to top
  

Words count, chose carefully.
 
IP Logged
 
George
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


Black-Billed Magpie


Posts: 8126
Boise, Idaho USA
Gender: male
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #12 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 12:53am
 
Have been following this with interest.

Many thanks, gentlemen.  I've often wished we had more discussion about causes here.

Best wishes,

George
Back to top
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2009 at 12:55am by George »  

"Whoever loveth me, loveth my hound."  (Thomas More, author of "Utopia", and Chancellor of England.  1477-1535)
WWW George jacox6820 7165032563  
IP Logged
 
ClusterChuck
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


The BEAST rises again,
and again, and again,
and .


Posts: 5394
Greenville, North Carolina
Gender: male
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #13 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 1:15am
 
Lips Sealed Smiley Smiley
Back to top
  

CAUTION:  Do NOT smoke when using or around oxygen.  Oxygen can permeate your clothing or bedding.  Wait, before lighting cigarette or flame.  

Keep fire extinguisher available, and charged.
ClusterChuck  
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #14 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:39pm
 
Good discussion ... replies to some of your points:  

... one can not have good levels of melatonin with low levels of serotonin, since the former is produced from the second. It's normal.

I agree that we can't have normal levels of melatonin without normal levels of serotonin.  But I disagree with your recommendation #6, "Reduce its (serotonin's)  transformation into melatonin."  Melatonin is low in clusters, and should be raised.  If serotonin is brought up to normal levels, I don't think anything should be done to prevent it from being turned into melatonin.

Had already said that the chemicals away from the discussion, it would be great to try to explain the mechanism by which drugs we are prescribed.

Taurine and GABA are amino acids and neurotransmitters used by the body to fight some of the components of clusters. These fit in with strategy #1, stabilize the trigeminal.



Rising levels of kinuerinina shows, however, that this tryptophan is metabolized by this route and therefore is decreasing serotonin pathway.


I agree - it both reduces serotonin, AND it increases kynurenines, which themselves may be bad for cluster headaches.  (Which is why I am interested in things like propolis which can reduce the enzymes that take tryptophan away from serotonin).

Another compound that inhibits these enzymes is brassinin, from broccoli, cabbage and related plants. There is a synthetic compound based on tryptophan that reduces the enzymes, but probably not available. And nitric oxide has a role in inhibiting IDO and pyrrolase, but I'm not going to mess with nitric oxide levels at this point.  

the kynurenina precursor is tryptophan, no 5-HTP. The 5-HTP can only lead to serotonin.

Yes, 5-htp is one step away from serotonin, and most 5-htp gets converted. So in that sense, it may be a better thing for people with CH to take...

But the reports of some people getting worse with 5-htp indicates that it is not just low serotonin levels ... the serotonin-2 receptors are too active, while the serotonin-1 receptors are not active enough.  


This is a consequence and not a cause. The cortisol Hypoxia occurs, it raises the T-pirrolasa and because it produced more kinureninas


You may be right on that, although the increase in the enzymes occurs very rapidly with hypoxia - I think that cortisol is one of several things that increase the kynurenine forming enzymes.

(Niacin has been suggested to inhibit kynurenine synthesis.) If there is an abundant presence of B3, tryptophan is not used for their synthesis, and thus remains free to both the tryptophan kynurenina to the path of the hydroxy-indoles. I can't agree this point.

The nicotinamide form of niacin has a direct effect in blocking the increase of the pyrrolase enzyme in the liver (at least in lab animals) ... see the article "The regulation of rat liver tryptophan pyrrolase activity by reduced nicotinamide-adenine dinucleotide (phosphate). Experiments with glucose and nicotinamide", pubmed ID 8041.  

Some researchers have suggested that ordinary niacin (at high doses) has a feedback function that does the same thing, although that has not been proven.

While following up on things in this discussion, I noticed a large number of articles related to inflammation causing an increase in the production of kynurenines and a decrease in serotonin.  Most notable include various infections and chronic inflammation, drinking alcohol, possibly smoking (lung inflammation decreases tryptophan, increases kynurenines).  Although there were no published studies I saw, I also wonder if calorie restriction has an effect.

Another possible dietary strategy for dealing with these enzymes that rob the body of serotonin is rosmarinic acid (found in rosemary herb, but even higher levels (and less soapy!) in Lemon Balm herb (Melissa officinalis)). See the article "Rosmarinic acid inhibits indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase expression in murine dendritic cells", pubmed ID 17229401.  Rosmarinic also has beneficial effects in lowering anxiety. One drawback is that lemon balm may lower thyroid function somewhat - good for some, indifferent for others, but chilly for those whose thyroid is already low.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:07pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #15 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:33pm
 
But I disagree with your recommendation #6, "Reduce its (serotonin's)  transformation into melatonin."  Melatonin is low in clusters, and should be raised.  If serotonin is brought up to normal levels, I don't think anything should be done to prevent it from being turned into melatonin.

The difference we have is the departure point. You part from that melatonin is necessary, that is low and that it is necessary to raise it. I part from that what is low is the serotonin and that's why melatonin is low, and that no matter it'is low. This would in principle affect only to sleep and immune system in the long run; there is no direct relationship with the CH.

And you can avoid serotonin becoming melatonin, naturally, giving melatonin externally. As you take it, the body reduces its endogenous production, reducing the consumption of serotonin. One might also play with light during the day and night, but should be considered if the impact of this measure would be relevant. I have a testimony of someone whose "siestas" always started a crisis, but now he's doing "siesta" with the light on, an he no longer suffers this crisis.

But here is a point to reach an agreement. I say that melatonin is not involved in the CH, its reduction is only a reflection of decreased levels of serotonin. It has no more importance and no other role here.

It would be great to try to explain the mechanism by which drugs we are prescribed

It's a good idea to start thinking about. I had some ideas, if you have time (and I), we can do it in the future.

I agree - it both reduces serotonin, AND it increases kynurenines, which themselves may be bad for cluster headaches

As with melatonin, we disagree on the same type of question, I do not think that is a factor kynurenina of CH. I think that their levels are a consequence of, and show, what's happening at the level of the metabolism of tryptophan. However, at this point at least we agree on avoiding the formation of kynurenina.

Yes, 5-htp is one step away from serotonin, and most 5-htp gets converted. So in that sense, it may be a better thing for people with CH to take...

But the reports of some people getting worse with 5-htp indicates that it is not just low serotonin levels

This topic has me curious result ever since. The most logical thing is that 5-HTP feel good, but really are who actually not. There is however a logical reason for it, and that these people would have trouble running the phase transformation of 5-HTP to serotonin. Recipients in all this has much to say, but I do not miss the blame for this so directly.

The nicotinamide form of niacin has a direct effect in blocking the increase of the pyrrolase enzyme in the liver

Ok, did not know. Noted. In this case, the B3 should be doubly beneficial. Inhibits T-pirrolasa and not spent tryptophan in it's synthesis. The truth is that to me it has been always great.

-------------------

When I have time i'll post a resume of the elements of recommendation #2 and actions to take over each one. This could be a good discussion with practical results.

Best regargs.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Deborah C
Ex Member



Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #16 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:41pm
 
WOW. Good stuff. thanks Smiley
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #17 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:23pm
 
OK, I am starting to understand you views better, although some things I disagree with.


This would in principle affect only to sleep and immune system in the long run; there is no direct relationship with the CH.


I disagree here - I don't see any reason to limit the effects of melatonin to sleep and immune functions.  It seems to be involved in many other important functions, including neuroplasticity and neuroprotection.  Melatonin can also affect the PI3K pathway.

Melatonin itself affects the serotonin receptors.  See the article "Melatonin potentiates 5-HT(1A) receptor activation in rat hypothalamus and results in hypothermia." (pubmed ID 12121481). This article also states that the effects of melatonin can be blocked by stimulating the 5-ht2 receptors ... this supports my idea that it is not only the amount of serotonin (which I agree is usually too low), but also the number, type and functioning of the different types of receptors.  Triptans and other drugs stimulate the 5-ht1 receptors and turn off clusters (at least in short run), while blocking the 5-ht2 receptors (kudzu, olanzapine, ergotamine, psilocybin, etc) can also turn the pain down or off.

And you can avoid serotonin becoming melatonin, naturally, giving melatonin externally. As you take it, the body reduces its endogenous production, reducing the consumption of serotonin.

When melatonin first became popular in the US (early 1990s), I remember reading an article that said taking extra amounts of it (exogenous) did not cause the body to make less - ie, addiction and withdraw were not seen as likely.  Not sure if that is true or not ... will check. While abrubtly stopping exogenous corticosteroids, morphine, testosterone, etc leads to an obvious deficiency, this has never been noted with melatonin to the best of my knowledge.   


In other news, I dusted off a program I wrote a while back to search the medical research - it is now looking for connections between things like IDO/pyrrolase and a few thousand herbs and foods. Will check the results of that tomorrow.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:26pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Gonzalo
CH.com Junior
**
Offline


I Love CH.com!


Posts: 43
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #18 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 1:17am
 
While waiting for a more complete answer, for lack of time, I just want to fix an error in my package. The nicotinamida (B3) is synthesized from tryptophan via the kynurenina. This means that their synthesis should reduce kynurenina, like you said. The process is:

tryptophan + TDO = N-formilquinuernina + B9 => Quinurenina + oxygenase => 2-amino-3-carboximucónico + Alanine => Quinolinate => Nicotinate => Nicotinamide.

So we have actually two tracks: the kynuerina and the indoles.

Sorry. Can you see how discussing show mistakes?. It's right, that.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #19 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 10:58am
 
Ok - a few other possible therapies.

At least 2 probiotic bacteria (Bifidobacterium adolescentis and Bifidobacterium longum) reduce tryptophan pyrrolase activity in the gut.

Shiitake mushroom stimulates Bifidobacteria breve and Lactobacillus brevis, and leads to reduced levels of tryptophanase in the gut. PMID: 18982487

Curcumin (turmeric) decreases conversion of serotonin to 5-HIAA (MAO inhibitor?) Curcumin also has beneficial effects on the balance of 5-ht1 and 5-ht2 receptors (stimulates -1 and inhibits -2). For a variety of other reasons, curcumin seems like a potential good treatment. Am working on a longer write-up of curcumin, but will throw it out here.

"Excessive doses of retinol (vitamin A) reduces liver t-pyrrolase ... not sure how toxic these 'excessive' levels are.  PMID 17942093.

Will keep sifting through the list to see what else might be significant. 
Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
ANNSIE
Ex Member



Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #20 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 3:40pm
 

Firstly, thank you very much for the information and interesting discussion.

However, I am a bit lost as to how it all can be applied practically to help CH ?
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #21 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 3:52pm
 
That remains to be seen. If something seems to have the right effects in lab studies and it works dramatically enough to make an immediate difference (as did Kudzu), then it may become part of the arsenal against CH.  If something takes longer to kick in and/or only leads to a modest reduction, it may be difficult to pick up on.... someone tries it, and it maybe sorta improved things, but a cycle could have been winding down etc etc.

But I think that there are things out there waiting to be discovered (by anyone) that can reduce CH pain. Having a model or understanding of the disease lets us search for safe and effective treatments. If a serotonin deficiency is a main cause of clusters (as was asserted above), there is much that can be done in response to that.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2009 at 3:57pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Poli
CH.com Junior
**
Offline




Posts: 37
Alicante|Spain|Europe
Gender: male
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #22 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:52pm
 
Quote:
Firstly, thank you very much for the information and interesting discussion.
However, I am a bit lost as to how it all can be applied practically to help CH ?

Hi all, knowledge is power, and altough I barely understand a part of what is writen here, I believe the U in OUCH means Understanding, and that is what I'd like to do.
May be someday, someone, after reading one of those posts, will tie them and will find the ......(can I say cure).
Saludos
Poli
Back to top
  
http://es-la.facebook.com/people/Poli_Cortes/14423  
IP Logged
 
ANNSIE
Ex Member



Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #23 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:58pm
 
monty wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 3:52pm:
... If a serotonin deficiency is a main cause of clusters (as was asserted above), there is much that can be done in response to that.


That aspect of CH has been looked at and many treatments have been based on that but so far the results are mixed. CH is a very complex condition and simply raising serotonin level or maintaining serotonin level has not given us the answer.

The serotonin relevant to CH is the intracranial one, which is only a very tiny amount compared to the serotonin in the rest of the body, especially in the digestive system. There is a very strict control of the amount of serotonin in the brain, regulated by the hypothalamus. External factors that affect the overall serotonin level in the body does not have much direct effect on that in the brain.

I totally agree that it is important to search for influential and causative factors in order to come up with possible treatment plans. However, one needs to be able to evaluate the practical implication of each hypothesis. One can never get  funding for a proper study or lab experiment unless practical applications can be demonstrated.

So far, the hypothesis discussed failed to address one of the most peculiar and important aspect of CH : the clockwork timing of the hits and the seasonal feature of the cycle. Is there any way you can reconcile the above hypothesis to this aspect of CH ?

On another point, although the level of cerebral serotonin is relatively stable, and so is the level of melatonin, there is a significant variant present between day and night and even during the awake or asleep state, both levels ebb and flow according to the circadian rhythm. Again this is regulated by the hypothalamus. How do you propose to correct the level of serotonin with regards to this constant variant ?

Please understand that I am criticizing anything or anyone. It is important to discuss and challenge hypothesises so that we can come closer to proving it or disproving it, and in the process, understand the condition better.

Thank you Gonzalo for starting the discussion, I am looking forwards to hearing your views.


Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
DJ
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Boyz Rule!


Posts: 7480456
Wichita, KS
Gender: male
Re: One CH hypothesis, presentation and discussion
Reply #24 - Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:42pm
 
This thread was locked up.  Got it fixed...

Cool
Back to top
  

I NEVER could have imagined! (April 11th, 1998 - present).  Adversity does not build character... it reveals it.
WWW 588277454  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print

DISCLAIMER: All information contained on this web site is for informational purposes only.  It is in no way intended to be used as a replacement for professional medical treatment.   clusterheadaches.com makes no claims as to the scientific/clinical validity of the information on this site OR to that of the information linked to from this site.  All information taken from the internet should be discussed with a medical professional!