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sychological??? (Read 2030 times)
black
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sychological???
Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:26am
 
ok probably i already know whats your answer already but i just want to hear it again for some reassurance.every doc i ve been about ch keeps bringing up the matter of stress and bodysychological as a cause for these headaches.i always firmly believe that yes i have stress and depression in some extend but only because of ch.Not the other way around.but lately i doubt myself because most of them(neuros) say the same thing.there are exceptions who agree with me
but i keep losing faith if anybody really knows what he is talking about.
so the question is are we sure its not sychological???

p.s.sorry for any mistakes in language.not my native.i think i was last signed in here in the old board Nov 2007.not so happy to be here again.i hoped we should be drinking tequilas in a sunset by now and then(i mean from 2007).chronic 15 years now
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Re: sychological???
Reply #1 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 9:48am
 
A very difficult issue to sort out and there is not much research on the question.

Can having chronic anxiety/derpession CAUSE Cluster in a person who has not had it previously? No evidence for that and, the recent research on the brain (hypothalamus) as a trigger (perhaps cause) for CH is, for me, evidence that anxiety--alone--is not the cause.

In a person who has CH, well established and recognized, have an attack as a result of high levels of anxiety/depression? It's extremely difficult to sort that sequence out. The old chicken-and-egg question.

Following is a piece I posted some time ago. It's complex and you may need someone to help you understand it. The basic idea is: it is very common for a person to have such a "habit" of anxiety that just the thought of a cluster attack can trigger off an attack of anxiety. It's also clear that different people, each having a CH attack, will have quite different levels/intensity of anxiety response.

Bottom line: it is possible to learn how to moderate/to ease, anxiety. That is something I would suggest for you because it would be of benefit for your whole life.
---------

Report of a study (from MEDSCAPE.COM):"Patients With Anxiety Disorders More Sensitive to Bodily Changes"

Sept 16 - Patients who have anxiety disorders appear to be more sensitive to bodily changes, which in turn suggests that the perception of panic attacks is reflective of central rather than peripheral responses, according to the results of a study published in the September issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry.

"Physiologic responses of patients with anxiety disorders to everyday events are poorly understood," Dr. Rudolf Hoehn-Saric and colleagues from the Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions, Baltimore, write. They compared self-reports and physiologic recordings in 26 patients with panic disorder, 40 patients with generalized anxiety disorder, and 24 nonanxious controls during daily activities.

The subjects underwent four 6-hour recording sessions during daily activities while wearing an ambulatory monitoring device. The team collected physiologic and subjective data that were recorded every 30 minutes and during subject-signaled periods of increased anxiety, tension, or panic attacks. Primary outcome measures included recordings of heart inter-beat intervals, skin conductance levels, respirations, motion, and ratings of subjective somatic symptoms and tension or anxiety.

Compared with controls, patients with anxiety disorders rated higher on psychic and somatic anxiety symptoms. Patients with anxiety disorders also rated themselves higher on disability scales and on sensitivity to body sensations. Both patients with panic disorder and those with generalized anxiety disorder experienced diminished autonomic flexibility and less precise perception of bodily states.

Patients with panic disorder had a heightened sensitivity to body sensations compared with generalized anxiety disorder patients. Autonomic arousal levels were slightly higher in patients with panic disorder, and this manifested itself in faster heart rates throughout the day.

"These findings suggest that, after having experienced anxiety attacks that are associated with strong bodily changes, patients become sensitized to such changes and may experience physiological symptoms of panic attacks..." [In effect, their bodies are acting as if there was a threatening condition even when this was not the case.]

The investigators note that the diminished autonomic flexibility found in both panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder patients may result from dysfunctional information processing during heightened anxiety that does not discriminate between anxiety-related and neutral stimuli.

"It is important to measure physiological responses and not rely on verbal reports," Dr. Hoehn-Saric added. "A demonstration that physiological responses during anxiety attacks are milder than perceived can be reassuring to patients," he said. "However, the long-term effect of diminished physiological flexibility is unknown."

Arch Gen Psychiatry 2004;61:913-921.
________________________________________________
Imagine a person who is afraid of, for example, dogs and can experience an anxiety attack by thinking about meeting a dog or even seeing a picture of a dog. (Or, replace "dog" with your own feared thing/experience.) The anxiety is NOT being caused by a real life experience, in this situation (the thought or picture). The mental and body reactions which we call "anxiety" are a kind of habit response which are very real in their effects, however. Anxiety produces mind and body reactions which are measurable and have a real impact on how we function (and even on long term health of the body).  

The anxiety becomes an automatic response, beyond direct control of will. With this development, the person has experiences (anxiety) which are confusing or misleading--they cannot separate the real life threat from their body's automatic ("I'm in danger!") reactions. When dealing with cluster, for example, the effect of this anxiety reaction (and this is true for depression also) is that the person has increased sensitivity and reduced tolerance for pain; their sense of suffering is elevated and the capacity for effective self-treatment is reduced.

Medication can dampen the experience of anxiety but it does not unlink the reaction from the underlying thoughts or misinterpretation about the situation. ("I'm in danger"; "this will never end"; "I can' bear the pain", etc.) Cognitive therapies have been very effective (especially when combined with short term meds use) in teaching folks how to break this link.
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« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2009 at 9:53am by Bob Johnson »  

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monty
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Re: sychological???
Reply #2 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 11:16am
 
CH is primarily physical in my opinion, but there are some connections to mind. Stress has widespread effects on various hormones, and can make many physical conditions worse.
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« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2009 at 11:17am by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
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Re: sychological???
Reply #3 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 1:34pm
 
well that was interesting reading as far as i could understand.i ll try to make easier the discussion hoping it doesnt get more confused by me.so try and bear me.i am not talking about stress disorder here.during various visits in doc's(not only one's) offices which usually last about 20 min when every preventantive fail and i am saying that imigran is good but not good enough(oxygen doesn't help me) they always end up bringing up the sychological matter but with a lot of blur as THE CAUSE of ch.
statements like
1 lease the stress in your life.(?)
2 maybe its stress that has taken up your whole existence and you cant realize it anymore(??)
3 maybe you always wanted a different job,friends lifestyle e.t.c and the denial to this and in aim to be accepted by others has as a result ch.(??!!first time i experienced was age 13 and i had beautiful childhood.ok now things arent beautiful but ch didnt just ring the bell )
fortunately about a year ago i went in a medical center with a department especially in chronic pain(in general,not only for ch)
in coincedence there was at that time a sychologist(not student,he had his diploma already) who was doing an essay about the correlation of chronic pain and mental health or something like that.so i had  about one hour and a half with him of discussion and sort of examination which means a variety of questions about everything.at the end i asked him the big question.
is it physical or matter of sychology?
the answer was that there is  anxiety(i think thats the proper word not stress.it just came up now)and i feel depressed
but as a result of ch.if the cause,pain of ch could vanish the anxiety and depression would automatically be gone.
but still i didnt find any comfort from therapies in that center(even if i was pleased from general treatment and behavior)and kept changing docs who always made these statements in visits of 20 min duration including time of hi and goodbye.so i guess the reason i ask is(thats really hard to find)if there is something else deep in soul that i/we dont get at all and worth exploring or i/we am/are just messed up by irresponsible statements when everything else fails(stress,anxiety in modern society  Huh

p.s. sorry for any mistakes in language
p.s. sorry if i said i wont confuse u but i did it Cheesy
p.s. sorry for any kind of oher headache i brought to you Cool
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Bob Johnson
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Re: sychological???
Reply #4 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 1:47pm
 
Ref. your #3. It sounds as if the people you have been seeing are saying that stress or anxiety or depression, etc. is the CAUSE of the cluster.

This is not the case. These emotional factors can make the situation more difficult but CH is a
disorder which arises from a misfunction of a specific part of our brain. Exactly how this operates is not yet understood but the portion of the brain as been identified. Treatment is primarily with various medications. The most up to date list of such treatments is found in these two links:

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Here is a link to read and print and take to your doctor.  It describes preventive, transitional, abortive and surgical treatments for CH. Written by one of the better headache docs in the U.S.  (2002)
================
Michigan Headache & Neurological Institute for another list of treatments and other articles:

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For a more accurate explanation of CH, print out this entire article [link on 2nd line].

 
Cluster headache.
From: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register (Orphanet Journal of Rare Diseases)
[Easy to read; one of the better overview articles I've seen. Suggest printing the full length article if you are serious about keeping a good medical library on the subject.]

Leroux E, Ducros A.

ABSTRACT: Cluster headache (CH) is a primary headache disease characterized by recurrent short-lasting attacks (15 to 180 minutes) of excruciating unilateral periorbital pain accompanied by ipsilateral autonomic signs (lacrimation, nasal congestion, ptosis, miosis, lid edema, redness of the eye). It affects young adults, predominantly males. Prevalence is estimated at 0.5-1.0/1,000. CH has a circannual and circadian periodicity, attacks being clustered (hence the name) in bouts that can occur during specific months of the year. ALCOHOL IS THE ONLY DIETARY TRIGGER OF CH, STRONG ODORS (MAINLY SOLVENTS AND CIGARETTE SMOKE) AND NAPPING MAY ALSO TRIGGER CH ATTACKS. During bouts, attacks may happen at precise hours, especially during the night. During the attacks, patients tend to be restless. CH may be episodic or chronic, depending on the presence of remission periods. CH IS ASSOCIATED WITH TRIGEMINOVASCULAR ACTIVATION AND NEUROENDOCRINE AND VEGETATIVE DISTURBANCES, HOWEVER, THE PRECISE CAUSATIVE MECHANISMS REMAIN UNKNOWN. Involvement of the hypothalamus (a structure regulating endocrine function and sleep-wake rhythms) has been confirmed, explaining, at least in part, the cyclic aspects of CH. The disease is familial in about 10% of cases. Genetic factors play a role in CH susceptibility, and a causative role has been suggested for the hypocretin receptor gene. Diagnosis is clinical. Differential diagnoses include other primary headache diseases such as migraine, paroxysmal hemicrania and SUNCT syndrome. At present, there is no curative treatment. There are efficient treatments to shorten the painful attacks (acute treatments) and to reduce the number of daily attacks (prophylactic treatments). Acute treatment is based on subcutaneous administration of sumatriptan and high-flow oxygen. Verapamil, lithium, methysergide, prednisone, greater occipital nerve blocks and topiramate may be used for prophylaxis. In refractory cases, deep-brain stimulation of the hypothalamus and greater occipital nerve stimulators have been tried in experimental settings.THE DISEASE COURSE OVER A LIFETIME IS UNPREDICTABLE. Some patients have only one period of attacks, while in others the disease evolves from episodic to chronic form.

PMID: 18651939 [PubMed]


 

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« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2009 at 2:26pm by Bob Johnson »  

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Re: sychological???
Reply #5 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 2:24pm
 
Black,

I think your docs have been giving you a lot of crap.

I'm chronic (have been since 97) and tend to get worse when I get rid of the stress in my life... a lot of us don't handle "relaxation" well, so that kills that theory.

If you haven't been here since 2007, you might want to check out the new stuff about O2. We've come a long way since 2007. You might want to give it another try. It's working for about 70% of us = some that it never worked on before because they were doing it wrong. It might be worth another try.

But as to your docs... some of us can't handle MSG, some can't drink a beer, some can't be around perfume -- what I'm saying is we all have DIFFERENT triggers and so far NO ONE has found a common thread in us, so until someone does - it's all speculation as to WHAT MIGHT trigger these darn things.

Wishing you some PF time....

Hugs BD
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Re: sychological???
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 4:41pm
 
from a misfunction of a specific part of our brain.

which is?what?hypothalamus?is there the misfuction or just another part of the mechanism in misfuction?all this time i am still in darkness.

hi barbara.thanks but no o2 again.i bought the tank back then.took me a while to search for the mask and yet with no result when everything supposed to work properly.besides my main problem is outdoor and indoor,but mostly outdoor.there is the crap.where one  cant rock on the floor.so i guess a proper pill or nasal spray is what i am looking for(still cant handle the idea of imigran injection but thats another story)as for the different triggers to tell the truth
thats the reason i signed out back in 2007.i left dissapointed
with last thought that this could take forever here with no result.
but here i am again and after two long hard weeks of constant kip 7-9
i believe that for such pain there got to be a common thread in all of us.as for doctors yes some i ve met are full of crap but damn when i am in front of them with their white suit,behind the big desk and all the papers in the wall i always become newbie.

p.s.recently i did a trascranial examination and a tripex artery in aim to find the cause.as predicted both clear.thought to say about it in case some of u have the same idea Undecided

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Re: sychological???
Reply #7 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 11:36pm
 
This is just MY personal experience.

I'm stressed the fuck out right now. My dog is missing, and has been for a week, lost over at my nephews house. I'm dealing with living without my allergy medicine until canadapharmacy can send it...  Since my family is out hunting the dog I'm staying with the nephews alone and dealing with them during the clusters. Hiding ain't an option. When my throat starts to close up, I have to take epinephrine.

It saves my life, but causes a nasty cluster after it's out of my system.

My hits have not increased. They also haven't decreased. They've stayed exactly the same.

It effects each person in different ways, but for me, it doesn't make it worse.

Mystina
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As far as I'm concerned, cluster busting has been the best treatment I've tried. No migraines since I started it, and my hits have gotten so much better. Wanna know more?
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It's saved my life.
 
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Re: sychological???
Reply #8 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 9:19am
 
Re. your last message, #6.

My last message gives you two lists of the best medical treatments for cluster that we have. There is no need to search for additional sources of treatment at this time.

The article which I suggested you print out and read gives the best current understanding about the causes and nature of cluster. At this stage, we do not know more about the exact causes of cluster and the truth is, it does not make any difference. You are seeking for relief and that is available.

Print out the lists of treatments and take to your doctor. Use this material to guide a discussion of your options.
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Re: sychological???
Reply #9 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 9:40am
 
I can think of times in my life when I was completely stressed out and then went into an episode, I can also think of as many times when I thought everything was going great and got hit bigtime. I'm certain it hasn't made a difference in my case. They come when they come.
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Re: sychological???
Reply #10 - Feb 15th, 2009 at 1:44am
 
I would dearly like to lean out of the window, and scream: “Stress is not likely a reason for CH!”,
although stress can be a trigger, or as in my case an indirect trigger, I just (bluntly) ignore the signal of an onset of an episode, and I am in a stress situation believing things must be done, and done now.... and I pay the price! But that is me.

Yes CH brings with it self-stress (defiantly at the beginning of the “syndrome”), for me, just over 3 years and 6 months (about), without identification of the new situation, the running to the ER or the Dr. looking for relief, with no immediate identification for the cause of the excruciating pain, visits with the dentist, visits with the eye specialist (finding I need glasses, but no real answer to the pain), visits to the Otolaryngologist (ear, nose and throat doctor) and a surgery on the nose and forehead .... With no real relief ..... But a justified procedure by itself ..... And then the first visits to the pain clinic and the neurological clinic.  Treatment for suspected CH but with the need to verify all aspects .... And the first treatments for specific pain, the GLOA or ganglion stelatum, and the beginning of the use of O2, and the verdict Cluster Headaches, from the start Chronic ....

And all that time the enormous stress, anxiety, not that the verdict relived the stress .... On the contrary ..... new questions, new situations, not totally in control of things, denial .....  And then this website with some answers, and even more questions .....  The trip to Milwaukee, coming (sort of) to term with my new situation ...... The diminishing effect of the GLOA, new stress looking for alternatives, with very marginal success .... Or adverse reaction, be it beta blockers, be it lithium, and the stress of “What now?”, the episodes per day are by now up to five or six, with no real answer.  Only O2 as an effective and good abortive (acute treatment), or resort to the use of Zomig, with all the adverse reactions from it, and to it .... and the stress goes on .....

Then the light at the end of the tunnel!(?) .... The ONB (Occipital Nerve block) works very well for a long time, but with some very severe adverse reactions (in my case), with long term damage to the adrenal gland.  I still am in treatment.... to “fix” the adrenal gland.

And then the verdict of being ICCH and the stress of looking for what to do next, with very few options left, within the school medicine ...  I will mention CB as a plausible alternative, but not for me.   I would suggest that anyone that has a job and principles that do not prevent him from using CB, to look into this venue .... I believe it suggests high potential!

So the stress is a prominent companion!  Looking for the next step .... DBS (deep brain surgery) is way too radical and removing the nerve is out of the question.  It has failed in most of the cases, and the loss of control over some parts of the face, make it even less attractive.  The stress is growing … Up to 8 episodes a day, without a comprehensive preventive (prophylactic treatments).  Starting to worry about the job, about the family, the future, adding to the stress......

At the end of last year, I was given the opportunity to implant an ONS (occipital nerve stimulator), and a (maybe) new horizon.  Well, the stress is still a regular companion, but I have my CH under better control, and the worry about living with CH, the stress anxiety, are somewhat diminishing, but it is still part of me......

I do have to say that despite the stress and the anxiety, I do live a full life, I love my life, and I fight the demon called CH.   I do not let it run my life, but, yes, it does affect it in many ways, it does dictate some aspects in my life, somewhat, and it does affect the life of my loved ones, in much more than just one way, and at times my job...... and it is disturbing.... stressing

Stress is part of me.....  it dose not trigger an episode, but it might (and dose) increases the way I perceive the pain during an episode, and dose effect my reaction to many situations


Michael

(Tks. Chuck for the orthographic / English help.)
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