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  New CH.com Forum › Cluster Headache Help and Support › Medications,  Treatments,  Therapies › Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
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Synergy - A Very Effective Mix (Read 9549 times)
Garys_Girl
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #25 - Jan 25th, 2009 at 3:02pm  
Unfortunately, St. John's Wort and Kudzu should NOT be combined with any of the triptans (or antidepressants) because it can cause serotonin syndrome, which is potentially fatal.  I don't know about Kudzu and verapamil - if I remember correctly, Kudzu is also a calcium channel blocker, so should not be combined with verapamil, but I'm not going to swear to that one.

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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #26 - Jan 25th, 2009 at 3:42pm  
I came off meds once before and that is before I used O2. I did it to avoid conflict of mixing another treatment. It's 5 days I am not going to forget and to be honest I am scared sh--less of doing that again, even though I spent many years undiagnosed and going through whole episodes without any effective treatment.
I think once you know you can try a range of stuff that can help you just don't want to go back to being without it. Sounds a bit junkie even though it's not.
Seems to me the best bet is to get through this cycle first and be supplied for the onset of the next one and try it first. At least I now use O2.
Thankyou for the advice. It seems to me that whatever we do there is always a trade off: - but whatever, I remain optimistic.

Ellick
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #27 - Jan 25th, 2009 at 4:48pm  
i guess a set back.  got hhit at 6am this morning followed by a heavy shadow at 8am.  I knew I would jinx myself
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #28 - Jan 25th, 2009 at 8:15pm  
Garys_Girl wrote on Jan 25th, 2009 at 3:02pm:
Unfortunately, St. John's Wort and Kudzu should NOT be combined with any of the triptans (or antidepressants) because it can cause serotonin syndrome, which is potentially fatal.  I don't know about Kudzu and verapamil - if I remember correctly, Kudzu is also a calcium channel blocker, so should not be combined with verapamil, but I'm not going to swear to that one.

Laurie


Here's a list of what all St.John's Wort is known to have problems with.
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #29 - Jan 26th, 2009 at 2:53am  
Am trying Kudzu treatment.  Trying it on its own first, and 3 days in have had several unusually strong non-HA shadows last 5-10 minutes but no true CH.  Will keep y'all updated on the progress.

One question for anyone who may have insight into the matter...

I read that the dosage in kilowatt's "synergy" mix is 1000 mg 2x per day.  The recommended dosage on my bottle is 3 pills per day, which each contain 100 mg certified potency extract and 450 mg raw root.  In your opinion is this combined dosage of 550 mg 3x per day (total of 1650 mg per day) comparable to kilowatt's 2000 mg per day?

Or perhaps a better question is, for those who have tried that mix, was your 2000mg certified potency extract, raw root weight, or a combination?

Thanks for any input!
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #30 - Jan 26th, 2009 at 8:57am  
brian wrote on Jan 26th, 2009 at 2:53am:
One question for anyone who may have insight into the matter...

I read that the dosage in kilowatt's "synergy" mix is 1000 mg 2x per day.  The recommended dosage on my bottle is 3 pills per day, which each contain 100 mg certified potency extract and 450 mg raw root.  In your opinion is this combined dosage of 550 mg 3x per day (total of 1650 mg per day) comparable to kilowatt's 2000 mg per day?

Or perhaps a better question is, for those who have tried that mix, was your 2000mg certified potency extract, raw root weight, or a combination?...

Hi Brian,

The Kudzu I started with is "Good'N Natural" brand.
Contents are listed as :
"Kudzu Blend 1000 mg.
Kudzu Extract (Pueraria lobata) (root)
Kudzu (Pueraria lobata) (root)
(Standardized to contain 1% Daidzein)"

Not a super-detailed description.
The recommended dosage per the bottle is "Two tablets daily, preferably with a meal."

My best wild-assed guess would be that your dose of three pills is fairly comparable to my two.  Huh

Good luck with the mix, and please post to let us know how it goes.

Best regards,
Jim
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Regards,
Jim
SW Louisiana

If "that which does not kill me, makes me stronger", then how come I always feel like $hit after every near-death experience?
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #31 - Jan 26th, 2009 at 9:03am  
kevmd wrote on Jan 25th, 2009 at 4:48pm:
i guess a set back.  got hhit at 6am this morning followed by a heavy shadow at 8am.  I knew I would jinx myself

Kev,

Don't be discouraged!  A few folks have had instantaneous complete relief, but for most, it takes about a week to fully kick in.  Stay on it, and I betcha you'll be pf in another couple of days.

Best regards,
Jim

P.S.  Stay off the smokes, too!!!  Wink
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Jim
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If "that which does not kill me, makes me stronger", then how come I always feel like $hit after every near-death experience?
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #32 - Jan 26th, 2009 at 4:48pm  
keeping my fingers crossed.   Was hit again last night at 3am and 6am.  TOmorrow evening will be 1 week  since starting this regimen.  Overall this cycle is still early but not so bad.  I am getting almost 0 hits during the day.  Everything comes when I am sleeping.  At least it doesn't interfere with day to day activities.  Still looking for complete  relief
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #33 - Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:16pm  
Ellick, I'm on Verapamil 120mg a day, finishing a cycle on Prednisone so at 10mg a day for another few days (started at 60mg a day like 15 days ago), use the 20mg Imitrex nasal sprays as well as the 6mg injections when i can afford them (my insurance is a little stingy).  Oh, and also taking clonezapam at night to help relax, and on a pretty steady dose of Vicodin for ancillary pain and to help relax as well.  And I've been on Kilowatt's regime since last Wednesday.

Yes, I know, I'm in the red med-wise.  Since on Kilowatt's course (which I started along with the clonezapam at night and vicodin throughout), I had one K4-5 Thursday morning which one nasal spray was able to abort within an hour, and last night, about two hours after falling asleep, had another 4.5 which again a nasal spray took care of withing a half hour.  For me, one nasal spray working is pretty much unheard of - I usually have to go into the unrecommended 3 dose range.

Anyway, Ellick, we're on much the same medication, and I'm still here to type about it.  I am aware of that serotonin syndrome, and am keeping an eye out for it.  We'll see.  Also, historically, my clusters last four weeks, and this Friday is the end of four weeks.  Fingers crossed.
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #34 - Jan 27th, 2009 at 9:40am  
aj wrote on Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:16pm:
Ellick, I'm on Verapamil 120mg a day, finishing a cycle on Prednisone so at 10mg a day for another few days (started at 60mg a day like 15 days ago), use the 20mg Imitrex nasal sprays as well as the 6mg injections when i can afford them (my insurance is a little stingy).  Oh, and also taking clonezapam at night to help relax, and on a pretty steady dose of Vicodin for ancillary pain and to help relax as well.  And I've been on Kilowatt's regime since last Wednesday.

Thanks for your post, I hope you are coming to the end of your cycle.
I am on 400mg of verapamil. I am not tapering of Prednisilone because It is a 5 day course. You spell it differently so I am not sure if is exactly the same although it looks like it.

Like you I have overused sumatriptan but I am not going to post it on here. Somone else might then think it is ok when it is not.

Trouble is, what is ok for one person is not ok for someone else. Serotonin Syndrom can be on you in a matter of minutes. I think you are taking a risk which is what I would call 'sailing a fine line' and I genuinely hope that you are ok with it all. In my view you need someone else to check you regularly for signs of SS because if confusion sets in first you will not what is going  on and then you will not act.

Mixing medication can take away what control you have.

I hope you have a long remission and by the time it comes back there is a cure or safe effective treatment fop us all.

Take care,

Ellick.
Yes, I know, I'm in the red med-wise.  Since on Kilowatt's course (which I started along with the clonezapam at night and vicodin throughout), I had one K4-5 Thursday morning which one nasal spray was able to abort within an hour, and last night, about two hours after falling asleep, had another 4.5 which again a nasal spray took care of withing a half hour.  For me, one nasal spray working is pretty much unheard of - I usually have to go into the unrecommended 3 dose range.

Anyway, Ellick, we're on much the same medication, and I'm still here to type about it.  I am aware of that serotonin syndrome, and am keeping an eye out for it.  We'll see.  Also, historically, my clusters last four weeks, and this Friday is the end of four weeks.  Fingers crossed.

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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #35 - Feb 4th, 2009 at 11:15pm  
Jim or anyone else reading this post,
I'm currently trying the "synergy" mix and have had some success. The amount of attacks and severity of them have reduced, but I still get a KIP 7-9 every couple days or so. I have a question for anyone who can answer it: Is it safe to take tetracyclin with this mix? I've read all about tetracyclin and no where does it say not to mix it with any of the items in the "synergy". I think I'm safe, but if anyone knows anything different, please let me know.

ClosetCHer
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #36 - Feb 5th, 2009 at 9:52am  
There is some sound medical research to back some of the ingredients in this mix, and there is a ton of anecdotal information to back the ingredients in this mix as well, not just from this thread, but from the years that they have been discussed on the site.  A very intensive study was undertaken by Nani here on ch.com with regards to the kudzu and how it worked on CH.

I've had CH neuro specialists prescribe magnesium, melatonin and Vitamin B2, 12 and B6 individually - not as a B complex.

As with any treatment that is undertaken for any medical condition you have, please be sure to keep your doctor informed of all the things you are taking including, especially, supplements and over the counter remedies.

Always ask your doctor before adding, changing or removing medications for your condition as there may be reasons the doctor has used specific medications and avoided others;

Just wanted to be sure that everyone remembered to be smart in their choices;  we aren't doctors and can't prescribe and it is not the intent of this site to give out medical advice;  remember too, that the only thing that has been constant with CH over the many many years now is that nothing works for everyone.

It's awesome when threads like this move forward and information is gathered and shared through specific doses and experiences.  Just always make sure that everyone can do so safely.  That is precisely how we will learn more and be able to better make research decisions into the causative factors of CH and why things work or don't work.

It might be helpful too, if everyone was able to list the specific ingredients from their particular bottles - not all bottles of supplements are made equal;  many of the kudzu supplements were found to be dramatically varied in their potency when Nani was conducting the kudzu studies here a few years back.  It will be helpful to others, as well as to the medical and research community, to know the specific details of the brand, dose and listed percentage/potency of each of the supplements and minerals.

Thanks!

Cat
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #37 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 9:00pm  
Hello everybody

I can't agree with the original post and with the idea for some reasons. I think that you can't talk about Synergy until you have tryed each component individually. And the reason is that more of components go to increasing serotonine levels and this way you'll never know what of them did the work.

Kudzu - 1000 mg, 2x per day (morning & night)  
Magnesium - 250 mg, 2x per day (morning & night)  
St. John's Wort - 300 mg, 2x per day (morning & night)  
Skullcap - 425 mg at bedtime  
Melatonin - 10 mg at bedtime  

Kudzu. What does it exactly??. No idea
Magnesium. A co-factor needed to Tryptophan-Serotonin way.
St. John's Wort. Hypericine. A selective seretonine re-uptake inhibitor (plus cortisol reduction, the say).
Skullcap. No idea.
Melatonin. More melatonin taked, less serotonin wasted by the body creating melatonin.

The serotonin production depends on so many, many factors. You can, of course, do this way, and take all together or taste each component at a time. After this, you can take for couples and so on, because there is always one thing that limits the result.

You can really give for sure that if you eat together all the serotonin direct and no direct fabrication factors, that's would be good. And that includes at least: Tryptophan suplements, vitamin B2, B3. B6, C, magnesium, 5-HTP, Melatonin, fluoxetin (really stronger in its work than hypericin) and melatonin.

I am from those who think that suffering some crisis (attacks?) is a good price to know what exactly helps me, and no taking all together.

Regards.
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #38 - Feb 10th, 2009 at 12:36pm  
Gonzalo wrote on Feb 9th, 2009 at 9:00pm:
Kudzu. What does it exactly??. No idea



Among other things, it blocks the serotonin 2 receptors and it stimulates the serotonin 1 receptors. Both of which can be good for relieving CH pain.
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #39 - Feb 10th, 2009 at 6:55pm  
monty wrote on Feb 10th, 2009 at 12:36pm:
Gonzalo wrote on Feb 9th, 2009 at 9:00pm:
Kudzu. What does it exactly??. No idea



Among other things, it blocks the serotonin 2 receptors and it stimulates the serotonin 1 receptors. Both of which can be good for relieving CH pain.

Thank you, monty

So all the ways carry to Rome. This two actions, I agree, can be good for reileving pain, because first acts reducting the binding power of the tranporter, and second facilitating the serotonine vesels contraction work.

The big problem of all this is that there's no way to know exactly what each natural product does and, for instance, what is the way or mechanism by witch they help.

Regards.
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #40 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 8:03pm  
doctors orders......i must stop taking everything for 1 week but my lithium and the magnesium.  i'll soon find out of this has been helping at all
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #41 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 8:52pm  
kevmd wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 8:03pm:
doctors orders......i must stop taking everything for 1 week but my lithium and the magnesium.  i'll soon find out of this has been helping at all

Hey! I'm talking about the home made mixes. Nothing to say (by now) about doctor orders. And there's so many things you can't stop just from one day to next. Care you your better.
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #42 - Feb 20th, 2009 at 9:22am  
I think there might be something to this.

I recently added in Kudzu and St. John's Wort to my regiment I was already taking.  Here is what I am using...

Multivitamin (once before bedtime)
Calcium (w/magnesium) (once before bedtime)
Super B Complex (once before bedtime)
B12 (once before bedtime)
B6 (once before bedtime)
Taurine (850mg, NSI brand) (once before bedtime)
Melatonin (6mg, once before bedtime)

Added in:

Kudzu Root Extract (1200mg, NSI brand, 3x daily)
St. John's Wort (700mg, Nature's Way brand, 2x daily)

I am now experiencing more pain free time with my vertigo and shadows being greatly reduced.  I had just added in the St. John's Wort because depression was starting to really get to me and I have used it in the past with some success.  I was leery though about it helping at all with my CH's, so I am surprised.  My depression is lifting.  (any meds/vitamins I take affect me quickly, so I tend to see results sooner)

I had just started adding back in the Kudzu a couple days ago also.  Even just adding that back in eliminated the bruised eyeball feeling for about 3 hours that same day.  Was wonderful!

Last night I was able to play Candyland with my son, help my 14 yr old with her homework, and keep my 11 month old occupied.  I haven't been able to do that in 6 weeks!

Now, I am not sure if I am near the end of my cycle (this is the longest I've been in cycle so far) or if it's due to the mix I've added in, but I wanted to post my results with some of the ingredients in Kilowatt's combo.

~mel
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« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2009 at 9:32am by Melissa »  
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #43 - Feb 20th, 2009 at 5:27pm  
Hello Melissa!

Glad to hear you're having some success with your regimen.  You've got all my stuff in there now except the scullcap.  Add in a little of that and you ought to be all set!  Wink  You're actually taking more of the kudzu and SJW than I typically do.

It's interesting that you're taking the 'B' vitamins.  I've taken fairly high levels of B-complex supplements for years.  Never really considered them part of 'the mix', but maybe they are!  Huh I've usually avoided them late in the day, though, since they can sometimes cause insomnia.  Maybe the melatonin cancels that out (?).

Anyway, great to hear of your success!  Hope you've got this cycle whipped!

Best regards,
Jim
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Regards,
Jim
SW Louisiana

If "that which does not kill me, makes me stronger", then how come I always feel like $hit after every near-death experience?
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #44 - Feb 21st, 2009 at 7:46am  
Jim, correction on the St. John's Wort, I only take 350mg 2x a day (serving size is actually 700mg, which is 2 pills, but I only take 1 pill.)  Also, I'm not taking the recommended dosage of Kudzu either, which is 2 pills 3x daily, I take only 1 3x daily.

BTW, thank you! Smiley
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #45 - Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:07am  
Hey Melissa!

How's it going?  Still seeing a reduction in pain & shadows?  Did you ever get some scullcap to go with your mix?  I don't know how closely you were following the old 'Kilowatt3' thread, but Lorne felt very strongly that the scullcap was an essential component of the mix.  One of the other guys said something similar, too.

Let us know how things are working for you!  Wink

Best regards,
Jim
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Regards,
Jim
SW Louisiana

If "that which does not kill me, makes me stronger", then how come I always feel like $hit after every near-death experience?
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #46 - Feb 26th, 2009 at 9:55am  
Hi Jim,

I still had the reduction in pain and frequency, but that was it.  Nothing more.  2 nights ago I got hit really bad, and finally ended up taking a Benedryl at midnight.  I then slept through the night till 6am. 

Last night I added the Benedryl again to my mix and slept from 8pm-6am.  I was so happy!  Especially since we have a huge snowstorm headed our way.

Now, it could be the Benedryl, or the ending of my cycle, so I'm not sure what to attribute it to, but I've been having more and more PF time lately, so it might be the latter.

Just wanted to say thanks though for sharing in what has worked for you!  I will say it helped me on a couple different fronts, especially with the intensity and it elimated the vertigo I had.

Take care,
Smileymel
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #47 - Feb 27th, 2009 at 9:56am  
Hi again Mel,

Thanks for the update!  Did you ever add the scullcap to your regimen?  Just curious...

Hope you're in the clear now!

Regards,
Jim
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Regards,
Jim
SW Louisiana

If "that which does not kill me, makes me stronger", then how come I always feel like $hit after every near-death experience?
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #48 - Feb 27th, 2009 at 11:15am  
No Jim, I have not added it.  I keep thinking I'm near the end of my cycle, but for some reason it isn't leaving.  My cycle was about 5 weeks last time and now I'm almost at week 8.

I'm just not sure of spending the money right now...

Not only that, I am so sick of taking so many pills, I am ready to chuck all of them. Embarrassed
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« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2009 at 11:17am by Melissa »  
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Re: Synergy - A Very Effective Mix
Reply #49 - Apr 29th, 2009 at 3:31am  
Alrighty, I wanted to let y'all know some things my headache specialist reccomended.

We were discussing natural treatments with her, so, here are the herbs she mentioned.

Bilberry - This is good for any kind of eye ailment. It's supposed to strengthen the veins around the eyes and make them more flexible, it was used in WWII by british pilots before they would go on flights... Because it helps with night vision.

I had an allergic reaction to it, so I won't be taking it, but I HAVE saw it mentioned elsewhere as being used for cluster headaches. My Mom is going to be trying it out for her headaches.

Riboflavin - B2. I've seen this mentioned some on here. I'll be trying this next... I'm on b12 injections, but they don't seem to be helping my hits any.

Butterbur - They have forms of this with toxins removed from it, My Mom thinks I MAY have tried it when I was young for my migraines. It's used for asthma and allergies, too. You may want to be careful with this one if there's a chance your testosterone is low. It can inhibit it.

Feverfew - This one has been used for migraines for a good long time, hard on the stomach. I have not tried it for cluster headaches, and most likely won't be able to for a while... My stomach is screwed up right now. This herb is supposed to help with inflammation in blood vessels in the brain. It's also used for Asthma.

She did mention Magnesium as a good supplement, and that b vitamins in general can be helpful. I've let her know about the skullcap, and am going to be emailing her some information on it, Kudzu, etc.

I'm also trying some chinese skullcap in the form of Airborne for seaasonal allergies... I'm thinking of getting some by itself, because it works differently than american skullcap. Anyone have any idea what dosage I should go for, or what would be equivalent to the dosage that's in the mix?

PFDAN to you all.
Mystina
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As far as I'm concerned, cluster busting has been the best treatment I've tried. No migraines since I started it, and my hits have gotten so much better. Wanna know more?
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It's saved my life.
 
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