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shelticon2

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"Ritalin?"...... Update...
Oct 28^th, 2008 at 2:53pm

Hi All,

I have had some requests for info on my "Ritalin Experiment" so I thought that I would post what I have found.

For those who don't recall, I had reduced my major CHs down to low Kips and shadows. While tolerable, my goal was to get rid of any hint of Chs all together.

To do this I took 40mg Ritalin for 1 week. This seemed to lessen the pain but not totally get rid of it all. I then went off of the Ritalin to see if things returned to their previous state. Saturday was my last day of Ritalin..

Sunday..... no change.

Monday.... and here is where things get wierd....Traditionally, when the weather cools down, my wife and I switch from our morning coffee to Chai Tea ( just tea with different spices). Monday was my first day having Chai Tea this season, my shadows where minimal.

Tuesday thru Friday I had my Tea... I was 100% pain and shadow free.

Saturday no tea..... no pain

Sunday morning no tea..... shadows start to return.... Had tea Sunday afternoon and shortly thereafter the shadows went away.

Monday and Tuesday ( so far) I had my tea and had no pain or shadows.. This is the longest period of time ( 1 week) that I have been pain free in over 1 year. Feels good!!!

Conclusion: The Ritalin did't help much while I was on it. Was coming off of the Ritalin the cause of my painfreeness? If so, why did the shadows start to return when I went a day and a half without drinking my Chai Tea? Did the Tea make the pain and shadows go away?

So what does this mean? Hell , I don't know... I do know that I, accidentally, introduced too many vairables to be truely scientific. I feel that , at least for me, the Ritalin did not have enough effect to be worth the trouble. I think that I am going to do more studies on my wife's tea. (It's a whole lot eaiser to get.)

Take from this what you will. I post MY results simple to inform others as to what happened to ME. Remember, I am not a doctor. I am the sole subject in my medical experiments. My wife won't let me experiment on the kids and the dog is afraid of me. ( just kiddin') I will entertain no comments or criticisms on how it was done wrong or could have been done better or what a dumbass I am for doing it in the first place. I will; however, welcome respectful comments and answer any questions that I can.

I know that this raises more questions than it answers, but isn't that the way of the beast?
I hope this helps someone.

PFDs to All

Jim

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Ungweliante

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #1 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:29pm

I wish you the best of luck in your experiments!

Just remember to analyse the stuff carefully. Maybe it was not the tea, but something else, and you just have not thought of that yet.

Or maybe Ritalin changed the headache in a fundamental way - effectively killing it (for now) ?

It maybe it just ended naturally?

Or maybe there is no spoon?

Damn, science sometimes feels like such a quack job

- Best regards and PFDAN,
Rosa

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Linda_Howell CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Do not feed the Moderators Posts: 11927 Santa Maria, Ca. Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #2 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:31pm Quote: my goal was to get rid of any hint of Chs all together. You DO know that there is no cure for CH, right? I'd settle for "tolerable" any old day.
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shelticon2 CH.com Junior Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 52 Greensboro NC Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #3 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:04pm Linda_Howell wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:31pm: You DO know that there is no cure for CH, right? Nope...... CH done messed with the wrong person.... as a matter of fact, IT needs to start looking for a cure for ME. Jim
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shelticon2

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #4 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:06pm

Ungweliante wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:29pm:

I wish you the best of luck in your experiments!

Just remember to analyse the stuff carefully. Maybe it was not the tea, but something else, and you just have not thought of that yet.

Or maybe Ritalin changed the headache in a fundamental way - effectively killing it (for now) ?

It maybe it just ended naturally?

Or maybe there is no spoon?

Damn, science sometimes feels like such a quack job

- Best regards and PFDAN,
Rosa

Exactly right.......

Jim

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thebbz Ex Member	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #5 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 6:48pm I think therefore I am. thebb
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Linda_Howell CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Do not feed the Moderators Posts: 11927 Santa Maria, Ca. Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #6 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 7:33pm Quote: CH done messed with the wrong person.... as a matter of fact, IT needs to start looking for a cure for ME. CH has messed with a whole LOT of wrong people. When the beast finds a cure for you please DO share with us.
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Potter

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #7 - Oct 28^th, 2008 at 7:55pm

shelticon2 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 5:04pm:

Linda_Howell wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 4:31pm:

You DO know that there is no cure for CH, right?

Nope...... CH done messed with the wrong person.... as a matter of fact, IT needs to start looking for a cure for ME.

Jim

Warfarin has been mentioned as a cure for clusters. Would ya try that?

Potter

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Batch

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #8 - Oct 29^th, 2008 at 1:31am

Hey Jim,

IMHO, unless your PCP/doctor was in on the off-label use of ritalin for your cluster headaches, your experiment is questionable at best, but then I'm not a doctor either, so can only comment as an interested observer. We’ve got enough problems with controlled substances within our community as it is.

When using the scientific method of experimentation we try to eliminate variables or keep them constant. This is done to ensure the results are directly attributable to the primary variable being tested in order to prove the hypothesis. In this case you were looking at ritalin as the causal factor, and that it was not just a coincidence that your headache pattern changed.

As you stopped taking ritalin, and changed from coffee to tea, you introduced several variables. That makes it almost impossible to say the change in your headache pattern is due to taking or stopping the intake of ritalin, stopping the intake of coffee, adding tea, or combinations of any of the above. Off hand given this was a single test, I’d say it was coincidental.

The key to testing the results of an experiment is to repeat it many times to see if the results can be reproduced reliably not only by you, but by others as well to verify your results. I don’t think that’s possible with your experiment as you’ve explained it, but there’s still the possibility you may be on to something.

Different types of Tea have been known to have medicinal properties for thousands of years. If you’re still gung ho in finding something that controls your cluster headaches, you may want to design another experiment around your tea of choice and avoid controlled substances unless your PCP/doctor is directly involved. Good luck… and keep good records.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

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sandie99

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #9 - Oct 29^th, 2008 at 4:33am

Jim,

Congrats for the PF time!

Have you figured out what was in that tea yet? Anything special, which could be helpful? I'm just curious, because I happen to have a packet of Chai Tea at home. Grin

It could be a lot of things why ch suddenly vanished, but I think that it's useful to consider many options. It's clear already that different treatments help us, and one thing does nothing to another.

I do hope that you'll get a lot of more PF days,

Sanna

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ninja mom CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 586 Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #10 - Oct 29^th, 2008 at 1:43pm Glad something worked for you...whether Ritalin, chai tea or phase of the moon, we all know how precious the PF time is. I happen to believe that there is a cure for CH-it has just not been discovered yet. This board, and OUCH, are our best bets for finding a cure-or many cures for that matter. PFDAN y'all kathy
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kika CH.com Veteran Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 122	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #11 - Nov 15^th, 2008 at 9:54am just wanted to mention that I take ritalin daily for ADD and still get CH's. what i would give if that were the answer...
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Em

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #12 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 7:15am

Jim,

Thanks for posting that. As the others have said, you can't conclusively say it was the tea that did it, but one thing I would like to say is good for you for trying to find something that works instead of just sitting around and letting the beast kick your ass. I'm not sure how good it is for you to be testing prescription drugs out Undecided

but if you're a willing guinea pig, then no one should be knocking you for having a go.

Quote:

I happen to believe that there is a cure for CH-it has just not been discovered yet. This board, and OUCH, are our best bets for finding a cure-or many cures for that matter

.

Kathy's absolutely right on this. The people who have this - US - the ones who go through this day in and day out are in the best position to work with OUCH and the medical professionals to be able to find something that will get rid of these damned things. If people think that there will never be a cure, then you've just rolled over and let this walk all over you. Just because there's not now, doesn't mean there never will be.

Let us know if you try this again under stricter conditions!

Em

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Scott Lawrence

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #13 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:43am

Was the Tea you were drinking strong?
It could be that the theine in the tea had an effect, the same way caffeine does. (Caffeine is called Theine in Tea, different names for the same chemical compound)
Although this would not answer for getting rid of them all together......
What were the main spice ingredients?
I'm curious if Liquorice and Cardamom are listed....

Scott

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Em

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #14 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:07pm

Quote:

I'm curious if Liquorice and Cardamom are listed....

Why is that Scott? The reason I ask is because the lovely Sanna once sent me an energy bar from Finland to try (because I'd had success with energy drinks). It was a liquorice bar with caffeine & taurine and whilst it didn't get rid of hits, I found it really helped with shadows.

Em

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Scott Lawrence CH.com Junior Offline Full Time Fighter Since Nov 5th 2008 Posts: 58 Mitcham, London Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #15 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:24pm Liquorice affects the bodies endocrine system, of which the hypothalamus is a part, which may or may not do something? I don't know? It also acts as a kind of vascular constrictor, raising blood pressure while tightening the blood vessels.....
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Em CH.com Alumnus Offline I wanna go... Posts: 830 St Peter Port, Guernsey. Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #16 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:30pm You learn something new everyday. Maybe I should be shipping in a few more of those Finnish liquorice bars. Sanna - there could be a business here for you!!
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Scott Lawrence CH.com Junior Offline Full Time Fighter Since Nov 5th 2008 Posts: 58 Mitcham, London Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #17 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:32pm lol....as I said, if it does anything or not, I don't know..... I'm just getting sick of having hit's now, so prepared to look into anything!!
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Em CH.com Alumnus Offline I wanna go... Posts: 830 St Peter Port, Guernsey. Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #18 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:39pm Tried red bull yet?
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Scott Lawrence CH.com Junior Offline Full Time Fighter Since Nov 5th 2008 Posts: 58 Mitcham, London Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #19 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:40pm yeah, and it worked, not as well as the coffee though.....expensive to drink all day as well.....
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Em CH.com Alumnus Offline I wanna go... Posts: 830 St Peter Port, Guernsey. Gender:	Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update... Reply #20 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:45pm Yes it is. I also find it quite tough on my stomach. Keeping my fingers crossed for quick arrival of o2! x
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monty

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #21 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 1:45pm

Scott Lawrence wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:24pm:

Liquorice affects the bodies endocrine system, of which the hypothalamus is a part, which may or may not do something? I don't know? It also acts as a kind of vascular constrictor, raising blood pressure while tightening the blood vessels.....

Yes, real licorice has a corticosteroid-like effect. It can cause a retention of fluids (moon-face and high blood pressure) - but I don't think it is a vasoconstrictor per se. Most of the Chai I have seen has little or no licorice, though.

Short term, cinnamon improves blood sugar regulation and is anti-inflammatory. Cinnamon can also be pungent/piquant/spicy/hot, which might point to a substance P regulating effect.

One thing that Goadsby and others are actively pursuing for CH and migraine is a CGRP inhibitor. Some Japanese formulas containing cinnamon have been shown to do exactly that, at least in the case of women with hot flashes.

Quote:

Maturitas. 2003 Jul 25;45(3):199-204.
Menopausal hot flash and calciotonin gene-related peptide; effect of Keishi-bukuryo-gan, a kampo medicine, related to plasma calciotonin gene-related peptide level.
Chen JT, Shiraki M.

JT Chen Clinic, Sunbright Twin 3F, 2-46-1 Honcho, Nakano-Ku, Tokyo 164-0012, Japan.

OBJECTIVES: The purpose of this study is to investigate relationship of menopausal hot flash and calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP). Furthermore, this study evaluated the effect of the Japanese herbal (kampo) medicine Keishi-bukuryo-gan from the aspect of CGRP regulation. METHODS: Plasma CGRP and vasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP) levels were measured during hot flash and CGRP reactivity was studied by cold load test in subjects with/without hot flashes. The effect of Keishi-bukuryo-gan was assessed in comparison with plasma CGRP level. RESULTS: Only plasma CGRP but not VIP significantly elevated at the occurrence of hot flash (P=0.002). Stress by cold load significantly enhanced the over-secretion of CGRP in subjects with flash compared with those without flash (P=0.003) 3 min after the load. Keishi-bukuryo-gan decreased plasma CGRP level in subjects with hot flash. CONCLUSIONS: CGRP but not VIP was mainly related to the occurrence of hot flash. Keishi-bukuryo-gan, Japanese herbal medicine, improves hot flash possibly affecting plasma CGRP level.

The herbal combination Keishi-bukuryo-gan is an equal part of cinnamon, 2 kinds of peony, peach kernel, and tuckahoe fungus.

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monty

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #22 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 2:09pm

Here's another study that found that keishi-bukuryo-gan protects nerves against damage caused by nitric oxide, another chemical that is greatly elevated in CH attacks. Not 100% sure, but this could be from something that sponges up the nitric oxide after it is formed. This article concluded that the cinnamon, peony root, and moutan root (tree peony) were the protective factors.

Quote:

Phytomedicine. 2004 Jul;11(5):404-10.
Protective effect of keishi-bukuryo-gan and its constituent medicinal plants against nitric oxide donor-induced neuronal death in cultured cerebellar granule cells.
Shimada Y, Yokoyama K, Goto H, Sekiya N, Mantani N, Tahara E, Hikiami H, Terasawa K.

Department of Japanese Oriental Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, 2630 Sugitani, Toyama 930-0194, Japan. shimada@ms.toyama-mpu.ac.jp

Keishi-bukuryo-gan (Gui-Zhi-Fu-Ling-Wan) (KBG) is a traditional Chinese/Japanese medical (Kampo) formulation that has been administered to patients with "Oketsu" (blood stagnation) syndrome. In the process of neuronal cell death induced by brain ischemia, excessive generation of nitric oxide (NO) free radicals is implicated in the neurotoxicity. In the present study, we examined the protective effects of KBG and its constituent medicinal plants against NO donors, sodium nitroprusside (SNP) and 2,2'-(hydroxynitrosohydrazino)bis-ethanamine (NOC18)-induced neuronal death in cultured rat cerebellar granule cells (CGCs). MTT assay showed cell viability to be significantly increased by the addition of KBG extract (KBGE) (100 microg/ml), Cinnamomi Cortex extract (CCE) (3, 10 and 30 microg/ml), Paeoniae Radix extract (PRE) (100 microg/ml) and Moutan Cortex extract (MCE) (10 and 30 microg/ml) compared with exposure to SNP (30 microM, 24 h) only. Also, cell viability was significantly increased by the addition of KBGE (100 and 300 microg/ml), CCE (30 and 100 microg/ml), PRE (100 and 300 microg/ml) and MCE (30 and 100 microg/ml) compared with exposure to NOC 18 (100 microM, 48 h) only. Persicae Semen extract and Hoelen extract did not protect against NO donor-induced neuronal death. These results suggest that KBG has protective effect against NO-mediated neuronal death in cultured CGCs and that it is derived from Cinnamomi Cortex, Paeoniae Radix and Moutan Cortex.

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« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2008 at 2:25pm by monty »

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monty

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #23 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 2:33pm

Cinnamon blocks glutamate/NMDA activity, which is associated with cluster pain. It also reduces calcium influx - not clear if it is itself a calcium channel blocker, or if it only blocks calcium liberation by glutamate, but either way, that could be helpful.

Quote:

Phytother Res. 2000 Sep;14(6):466-8.
Extract prepared from the bark of Cinnamomum cassia Blume prevents glutamate-induced neuronal death in cultured cerebellar granule cells.
Shimada Y, Goto H, Kogure T, Kohta K, Shintani T, Itoh T, Terasawa K.

Department of Japanese Oriental Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, 2630 Sugitani, Toyama 930-0194, Japan. shimada@ms.toyama-mpu.ac.jp

We studied the protective effect of a water extract from the bark of Cinnamomum cassia Blume on glutamate-induced neuronal death by MTT assay and its action on (45)Ca(2+) influx using cultured rat cerebellar granule cells. In a dose-dependent manner, this extract (10(-5)-10(-4) g/mL) significantly protected against glutamate-induced cell death and also inhibited glutamate-induced (45)Ca(2+) influx. These results suggest that the bark of Cinnamomum cassia has a protective effect on glutamate-induced neuronal death through the inhibition of Ca(2+) influx. Copyright 2000 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

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shelticon2

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Re: "Ritalin?"...... Update...
Reply #24 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 3:59pm

Scott Lawrence wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:43am:

Was the Tea you were drinking strong?
It could be that the theine in the tea had an effect, the same way caffeine does. (Caffeine is called Theine in Tea, different names for the same chemical compound)
Although this would not answer for getting rid of them all together......
What were the main spice ingredients?
I'm curious if Liquorice and Cardamom are listed....

Scott

I'm pretty sure that it's not the caffeine (or theine).

First of all, because the tea is not that strong and secondly, I drink Red Bull , as needed, which takes the edge off but does not rid me of shadows all together as the tea does.

I will post the ingredients as soon as I can get my wife to tell me what they are.... Not that it is a secret, She just hasn't gotten around to it yet ( She is very busy).....

I do know, however, that there is no Liquorice or Cardamom but there is cinnamon included.

One final thought on this.... A year ago, when I was getting hit hard and heavy, I drank the tea and noticed no effect on the hits. Could be this only chases shadows away???

Jim

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