I think for the most part people would say Cluster people need vasoconstriction, the narrowing of the blood vessels. 

As an employee of a plumbing wholesaler, i have never  really quite understood this.   If i have too much "pressure"  per say and sometimes can actually feel my head blood vessels pulsing above my ear; wouldn't you want to relieve the pressure???

Why wouldn't we want vasodilation..., the widening and relaxing of the vessels? A relief valve per say.   

I know for a fact there are dozens of people on here a lot smarter and more  experienced w/ terms/ researching and what not.  And I mean that w/ respect. 

Here is what i would like explained....   Caffeine, energy drinks are pushed alot on here.   they are a constrictor.

O2 is pushed period.  and this is where i get suckey......   a by product is CO2.   carbon dioxide is a  dilator, right???   Widening the vessels.

Please explain.    thanks

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  I guess but you might be over thinkin the whole shitaree.

      Potter

It is my understanding that when we experience pain, it is due to our blood vessels dilating  thus causing pressure on the Trigeminal nerve.  We need vasoconstriction to cause those vessels to shrink, relieving the pressure on the nerve.

Potter wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 12:15pm:

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I wonder if sucking O2 from a mask increases CO2 levels, hence dilating the vessels.   

Jeannie wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 12:22pm:

It is my understanding that when we experience pain, it is due to our blood vessels dilating  thus causing pressure on the Trigeminal nerve.  We need vasoconstriction to cause those vessels to shrink, relieving the pressure on the nerve.

Seems reasonable.   

Unless Batch or someone else beats me to it, I can hopefully explain about vasodialtion & constriction in more detail when I get off work later today.
-Gary

Jeannie wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 12:50pm:

JHK07 wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:32pm: Potter wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:15pm: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE   I guess but you might be over thinkin the whole shitaree.       Potter I wonder if sucking O2 from a mask increases CO2 levels, hence dilating the vessels.    Breathing pure 02 at a high flow rate saturates the blood and causes the blood vessels to constrict.

Saturates the blood with what?  do you have a link?

JHK07 wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 1:12pm:

Jeannie wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:50pm: JHK07 wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:32pm: Potter wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:15pm: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE   I guess but you might be over thinkin the whole shitaree.       Potter I wonder if sucking O2 from a mask increases CO2 levels, hence dilating the vessels.    Breathing pure 02 at a high flow rate saturates the blood and causes the blood vessels to constrict. Saturates the blood with what?  do you have a link?

The answer is  OXYGEN.

           Potter

Potter wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 1:20pm:

JHK07 wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 1:12pm: Jeannie wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:50pm: JHK07 wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:32pm: Potter wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 12:15pm: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE   I guess but you might be over thinkin the whole shitaree.       Potter I wonder if sucking O2 from a mask increases CO2 levels, hence dilating the vessels.    Breathing pure 02 at a high flow rate saturates the blood and causes the blood vessels to constrict. Saturates the blood with what?  do you have a link? The answer is  OXYGEN.            Potter

now link for how O2 make vessels constrict. :)

I'm betting you could look it up ;)

Jeannie wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 1:40pm:

I'm betting you could look it up ;)

You said O2 saturates the blood and causes blood vessels to constrict.


Now when I went to school and I made a claim,  i had to back it up.

And I did look.   How bout you show me.

JHK07 wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 1:54pm:

Jeannie wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 1:40pm: I'm betting you could look it up ;) You said O2 saturates the blood and causes blood vessels to constrict. Now when I went to school and I made a claim,  i had to back it up. And I did look.   How bout you show me.

Google it.

         Potter

Potter wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 2:08pm:

JHK07 wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 1:54pm: Jeannie wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 1:40pm: I'm betting you could look it up ;) You said O2 saturates the blood and causes blood vessels to constrict. Now when I went to school and I made a claim,  i had to back it up. And I did look.   How bout you show me. Google it.          Potter

I did google it.  I can't find it.   That is why I asked for a link.  I am serious.   

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not this either.....

Interesting to note that he is saying that the primary mode of action is NOT as a vasoconstrictor but on its effect on the central nervous system. Doesn't change our appreciation of this class of meds but suggests we need to change how we think about the nature of CH.
==============================
Handb Exp Pharmacol. 2007;(177):129-43.   


Serotonin receptor ligands: treatments of acute migraine and cluster headache.

Goadsby PJ.

Institute of Neurology, Queen Square, London WC1N 3BG, UK. peterg@ion.ucl.ac.uk

Fuelled by the development of the serotonin 5-HT(1B/1D) receptor agonists, the triptans, the last 15 years has seen an explosion of interest in the treatment of acute migraine and cluster headache. Sumatriptan was the first of these agonists, and it launched a wave of therapeutic advances. These medicines are effective and safe. Triptans were developed as cranial vasoconstrictors to mimic the desirable effects of serotonin, while avoiding its side-effects. IT HAS SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN SHOWN THAT THE TRIPTANS' MAJOR ACTION IS NEURONAL, WITH BOTH PERIPHERAL AND CENTRAL TRIGEMINAL INHIBITORY EFFECTS, AS WELL AS ACTIONS IN THE THALAMUS AND AT CENTRAL MODULATORY SITES, SUCH AS THE PERIAQUEDUCTAL GREY MATTER. Further refinements may be possible as the 5-HT(1D) and 5-HT(1F) receptor agonists are explored. Serotonin receptor pharmacology has contributed much to the better management of patients with primary headache disorders.

PMID: 17087122 [PubMed]
=================================================================
J Clin Neurosci. 2010 Mar 11.

What has functional neuroimaging done for primary headache ... and for the clinical neurologist?
Sprenger T, Goadsby PJ.

UCSF Headache Centre, Department of Neurology, University of California, 1701 Divisadero St, Suite 480, San Francisco, CA 94115, USA.

Our understanding of mechanisms involved in primary headache syndromes has been substantially advanced using functional neuroimaging.

THE DATA HAVE HELPED ESTABLISH THE NOW-PREVAILING VIEW OF PRIMARY HEADACHE SYNDROMES, SUCH AS MIGRAINE AND CLUSTER HEADACHE, AS BRAIN DISORDERS WITH NEUROVASCULAR MANIFESTATIONS, NOT AS DISORDERS OF BLOOD VESSELS.

PMID: 20227279 [PubMed]

thanks Mr Johnson.   


I will add on Later.....   

I have to admit I am having difficulty finding the information on line.  I based my response on the information I have acquired here and from that of my headache specialist. 

Jeannie wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 3:47pm:

I have to admit I am having difficulty finding the information on line.  I based my response on the information I have acquired here and from that of my headache specialist.

Me either. 

If you get some time read  on carbon dioxide as a vasodilator.  Interesting read, and  I am curious if the O2 you guys use increases the CO2 levels in the blood, therefore maybe dilating the vessels. 

Most of the reading is over my head.   stuff like the Bohr effect.

I am quite the opposite of most people on here.   I avoid caffeine, especially after 12 noon, and I usually can drink (alcohol) all I want.   

This V vs. V business has been around for decades when it was first proposed as the explanation for migraine. Peter Goadsby's work, which I quote above, reflects the current thinking about causation, i.e, migraine and cluster are not caused by a dysfunction of the blood vessels. He writes elsewhere that the changes in blood vessels are a secondary reaction rather than the cause.

So, unless you have some interest in this question, just wondering what's going on, you can drop the issue. The throbbing which you mentioned is not an important issue, i.e., not central to your pain.

I'm going to be lazy  ;) and rely on a posting by Batch that goes a long way to explaining the dilation/constriction effect. Much better than my spending a long time basically re-typing what he so conveniently has already written.
It's under "Your Brain on Oxygen" reply #30 on March 17th 2011.
It can certainly be very confusing stuff to anyone who hasn't taken Anatomy & Physiology at least three times over (or more!).  I've been teaching it for some time now and I still have to re-read and review that information whenever I'm teaching it to a new class.
-Gary

Marc wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 10:18pm:

But you will find most people here saying that Goadsby is wrong and that that the pain relief with O2 is purely vaso-constriction. Cat first introduced me to the "other" line of thinking years ago and I've leaned that way since. Same with Verapamil - the effect seems to be far more reaching than vaso-relaxation.

i wish i knew who cat was and the "other" line of thinking.    I am for sure that there is more here than V vs V.  It is one of the reasons I don't spend much time on here.  Partly because of the energy drinks pushed.   Caffeine .....   on a defective hypothalamus .....  no wonder we cant sleep.  think about it.   really

POTTER   Where is my link?


Here is yours.... enjoy

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Nobody's asking you to believe. We're just telling you what works. Take it or leave it. Many find great relief (myself included) by chugging an energy drink at onset. You don't want to believe it? Don't.

Here's your links:

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You can stop getting pissed off because other people won't do your research for you.

Maybe when the 02 hits the brain in such a large flow, the brain itself says "Whoa...that is too much 02 and constricts it itself"...Just a thought. :)

Jimi wrote on May 4^th, 2011 at 4:21pm:

Maybe when the 02 hits the brain in such a large flow, the brain itself says "Whoa...that is too much 02 and constricts it itself"...Just a thought. :)

Well, Jimi, I  do know some people who could benefit from having their brain shunken  ;).

Quote:

Well, Jimi, I  do know some people who could benefit from having their brain shunken

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

deltadarlin wrote on May 4^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Well, Jimi, I  do know some people who could benefit from having their brain shunken  ;).

Especially if one is being pursued by a zombie.

[/quote]
i wish i knew who cat was and the "other" line of thinking.   

I do know who cat is...and she is beloved, smart, funny, with a whole lot to offer. There is a search function...just saying....

I am for sure that there is more here than V vs V. 

Open for debate and discussion...which is why we're here.....


It is one of the reasons I don't spend much time on here. 

Well then....your choice...one of the mantras is "take what you need and leave the rest".

Partly because of the energy drinks pushed. 

Color me a "pusher"....


 Caffeine .....   on a defective hypothalamus .....  no wonder we cant sleep.  think about it.   really

Been thinking about it ...really... for 30 yrs now.....caffeine at the right time, the right dose, and with taurine to turbocharge...to quote Mick..."Thank you Jesus...Thank you Lord". It WORKS!

The problem is NOT that we can't sleep...I can power down an energy drink and be asleep in 10 minutes....habituation?...tolerance?...exhaustion?...don't know...don't care. The problem IS that SLEEP is a trigger....and it has naught to do with caffeine...

Best,

Jon


[/quote]

Brew.....

This is what I was looking for nestled in the last link....

"It gets worse…  It's not the lack of oxygen that controls the rate of respiration, it's the level of CO2. During strenuous activity, CO2 builds up faster in the bloodstream than it can be expelled from the lungs at normal respiration rates.  As a result, chemical receptors in the body signal an increase in respiration to reduce CO2 levels, and you start gasping for breath panting like a big dog. 

On top of that, CO2 is a powerful vasodilator.  As a cluster headache attack is associated with a dilation of the arteries and vascular structures around your trigeminal nerve, a buildup of CO2 above normal levels causes increased vascular dilation and that makes cluster headache attacks more painful and last longer. 

CO2 is such a powerful a vasodilator that even a slight increase in CO2 above normal levels will totally negate and overpower the vasoconstriction (a cluster headache abortive mechanism) provided by breathing 100% oxygen.  As CO2 levels continue to build, you start having panic attacks and become even more animated generating more CO2. It's a vicious cycle.

The only way to prevent CO2 buildup during oxygen therapy is breathe at a rate faster than normal and with a greater tidal volume than normal.  This is called hyperventilation and requires a minimum oxygen flow rate of 25 liters/minute. 

Preventing CO2 buildup may not be possible at high Kip-levels even with an oxygen flow rate of 15 liters/minute and a properly functioning non-rebreather mask.  A higher respiration rate (and oxygen flow rate) will be needed when cluster headache attacks rise above Kip-6 to Kip-7 on the pain scale. "


thanks.   jhk


And back to the caffeine.... while it  may provide temporary relief,  you may just be adding fuel to the fire in the long run. 

lets face it,  probably the only reason to take the caffeine if for the vasocontriction properties.   But it is a drug per say.....  just need to think about what it can be doing to our body,  especially in the high MGs that we sometimes take.

Quote:

And back to the caffeine.... while it  may provide temporary relief,  you may just be adding fuel to the fire in the long run....just need to think about what it can be doing to our body,  especially in the high MGs that we sometimes take.

Not an opinion that's shared by many around here. But you're entitled.

Brew wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 7:56am:

Quote: And back to the caffeine.... while it  may provide temporary relief,  you may just be adding fuel to the fire in the long run....just need to think about what it can be doing to our body,  especially in the high MGs that we sometimes take. Not an opinion that's shared by many around here. But you're entitled.

Not shared by me, neither. And any abortive that doesn't kill me right away is welcome when the beast comes to dance. I'm just in luv with O2 and Monster! Blessings. lance

Jimi I do think you are on to the simple explanation. Again I am no expert but in normal day to day life we do produce carbon dioxide (CD) when we exhale and yes CD is a vasodilator but the concept of we CH's using O2 is associated with how we take in the O2 and exhale.  In my opinion improper breathing techniques is probably why some people have success with O2.  You have to breath in such a manner as to push out the CD.  This is why concentrators with only a 10 lpm flow is usually not very effective on hits above a 4-5 kip (trust me I know as I had one for 10 years).  You need a regulator of at least 25 lpm so you can breath and exhale properly to displace the CD.  Recently during my worst of worst cycles I actually bought a regulator that will go to 60 lpm. That was a godsend because many times using my 25lpm regulator on high hits I would deflate the bad in only one breath.  Again the idea is to breath so you displace the CD and like Jimi says when this occurs the brain is tricked so to speak and allows for the vessels to return to normal and end the CH.

Just my uneducated feelings.

Wishbone

  OK . . . my two cents

  Have been away from the board for a while . . . and my memory functions aren't the best . . . I'll blame it on age (64) or maybe too much 02 (as long as we're covering multiple bases  ;))

  I do recall talk of research of "Why 02 works", and one of the posts stated that high flow 02 creates three effects . . . hyperoxia, hypoxcemia (sp?), and elevates PH levels, all of which are vasoconstrictors.

  My reaction to this info . .  . DON'T CARE!  It worked for me! . . . as it does for most of us . . . without negative side-effects.  Imitrex (MAJOR vasoconstrictor) works also, but if you have heart issues or high cholesterol (as I do), can also kill you.  I have yet to hear of anyone suffering a heart attack from 02 use.

  Be Safe,  PFDANs

   (02 Pusher)   Richard

Interesting thread...

For the CH'ers and supporters that have done some digging on this topic with respect to the pathophysiology of the cluster headache attack and abort mechanisms...  take a look at a fascinating article by Prof. Dr. Arny May, MD titled: Headache: lessons learned from functional imaging at the following link:

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I've had the pleasure of meeting with Dr. May in Hamburg and tour his facilities at the University Hospital UKE.  He spends half his time in his neuroimaging lab and the other doing clinical work with CH'ers and migraineurs...  He sees more CH'res in a week than most neurologists see in an entire career and in the process, he's become a giant in the world of treating and researching cluster headache with with his structural and functional neuroimaging...

I've always considered the CH attack mechanism largely vascular in nature until the pain escalates above a six on the 10-point headache pain scale when all of the autonomic symptoms start.  At that point. it appears to become neurogenic... 

I've also considered the basic abort mechanism to be vascular as well with vasoconstriction being the essential element no matter if stimulated through oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation (hyperoxia, hypocapnia and respiratory alkalosis - elevated arterial pH or through the use of anti-inflammatories.

I've also wondered if the pain causes vasodilation or the vasodilation causes the pain...  kind of like what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

See if you can figure out on which side of the vascular-neruogenic fence Dr. May lands with this article and let me know...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Headache:lessons learned from functional imaging
British Medical Bulletin 2003; 65: 223-234

Arne May
Department of Neurology, University of Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany

Using PET in a larger patient series, significant activations ascribable to the acute cluster headache were observed in the ipsilateral hypothalamic grey matter when compared to the headache-free state44. This highly significant activation was not seen in cluster headache patients out of the bout when compared to the patients experiencing an acute cluster headache attack45. In contrast to migraine25, no brainstem activation was found during the acute attack compared to the resting state. This is remarkable, as migraine and cluster headache are often discussed as related disorders and identical specific compounds, such as ergotamine and sumatriptan, are currently used in the acute treatment of both types of headache46. These data suggest that while primary headaches such as migraine and cluster headache may share a common pain pathway, the trigeminovascular innervation, the underlying pathogenesis differs significantly as might be inferred from the different patterns of presentation and responses to preventative agents46.
Just as it is striking that no brainstem activation occurs in contrast to acute migraine, no hypothalamic activation was seen in experimental pain induced by capsaicin injection into the forehead47. This is important because injection of the forehead would activate first (ophthalmic) division afferents which are the trigeminal division predominantly responsible for pain activation in cluster headache. Thus two other types of first division of trigeminal nerve pain, while sharing neuro-anatomical pathways with cluster headache, do not give rise to


VASCULAR HEADACHE: ARE BLOOD VESSELS INVOLVED?

Taking these observations on acute cluster headache together with what has been observed in experimental head-pain and migraine, the data establish that migraine and CLUSTER HEADACHE, FAR FROM BEING PRIMARILY VASCULAR DISORDERS, ARE CONDITIONS WHOSE GENESIS IS TO BE FOUND IN THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IN PACEMAKER OR CIRCADIAN REGIONS SPECIFIC TO THE SYNDROME. If further studies confirm these findings, a better understanding will be gained of where and how acute and preventative therapy can be targeted.

Glassman wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 10:37pm:

I'm going to be lazy  ;) and rely on a posting by Batch that goes a long way to explaining the dilation/constriction effect. Much better than my spending a long time basically re-typing what he so conveniently has already written. It's under "Your Brain on Oxygen" reply #30 on March 17th 2011.

I had read Batch's explanation of how oxygen works and am in total agreement with it.  However, the one area that seemed less understood is how the uptake of carbon dioxide is done.  I read "cast off" but eventually remembered something else involved, like a missing link.

from Batch's explanation:


Quote:

When the chemo sensors in the brain detect an elevation in CO2 levels and drop in arterial pH, an acid-base homeostatic mechanism kicks in and the brain signals the heart to beat faster, the lungs to breath faster and the arteries to dilate.  It does all this to pump more blood to the lungs where the excess carbonic acid can be cast off or downloaded from blood hemoglobin as CO2 and oxygen in uploaded.  This increased respiration rate and heartbeat will continue until the excess CO2 is cast off...

I remembered something I read in 2008 by Michael Trachtenberg at Harvard, who did his early work on carbon dioxide removal for NASA, building carbon dioxide-capture systems for spacesuits and for the ship being developed for the first manned mission to Mars.

I looked back to where I read this and will recap.  Batch, your comments are welcome and I hope this will maybe add to your description of how oxygen works.  You seem to have the rest.  :)


Here was the interesting thought Batch left us with:


Quote:

Clearly, there are other mechanisms involved in the cluster headache abort process with oxygen therapy and that's what Ricardo wants to learn.  That leads us to a possible question as to which is the predominant mechanism in play, acid-base homeostasis, or a cocktail of hormones, enzymes, and chemical messengers triggered by hyperoxia? I don't know...  The neurochemistry involved is well above my pay-grade.

The problem here being - it does not involve neurochemistry, but neurobiology instead.  It is biological, a physiological processes evolved over million of years and used by virtually every organism on earth.  Clinical research on the role of glial brain cells in epilepsy and head trauma were revealing for this.

Trachtenberg's explanation:

Glial cells bring in nutrients, including oxygen, and carry away pathogens and carbon dioxide.  Since 1967, Trachtenberg had been investigating a mystery: given the large distance in the brain between neurons and blood vessels, it seemed impossible that the glial cells could scavenge carbon dioxide fast enough to prevent a dangerous buildup.  Increased carbon dioxide would increase acidity, which in turn would change the "excitability" of the neurons, causing them to fire at the wrong time.

Nature solved the problem, evolution had borrowed the same high-speed carbon dioxide shuttle used in nearly every plant, animal, and bacteria on earth: an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase.  Plants use carbonic anhydrase to help them absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.  Mammals use it to help them move carbon dioxide from tissues into capillaries and from there to the lungs to be expelled from the body. 

One driver of this movement is a simple pressure differential: a gas will always flow from a region of higher concentration and pressure to one of lower pressure.  But the second driver - the one that homes in on only carbon dioxide is the carbonic anhydrase contained in each of our cells.  The enzyme catalyzes a reaction that turns carbon dioxide to bicarbonate, which can be carrried in large volumes in the blood plasma to the lungs, exhalations have a concentration of about 4% carbon dioxide.




The reason I bring this up is because Batch had everything involved in his explanation, except I saw no mention of the enzyme carbonic anhydrase, which is what homes in on carbon dioxide and accelerates its uptake. 


The only reason I remembered reading this though, is this sentence here:


Quote:

Increased carbon dioxide would increase acidity, which in turn would change the "excitability" of the neurons, causing them to fire at the wrong time.

I thought about cluster headaches when I read this and if this had a connection -- do we maybe have a problem with carbonic anhydrase?
I found this similar to the question Batch left us with in his post:


Quote:

That leads us to a possible question as to which is the predominant mechanism in play, acid-base homeostasis, or a cocktail of hormones, enzymes, and chemical messengers triggered by hyperoxia?

JHK07 wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 7:45am:

lets face it,  probably the only reason to take the caffeine if for the vasocontriction properties.

Maybe....I understand how vasoconstriction in your brain could end up helping a cluster....BUT...I'm amazed by the "coincidence" that EVERYTHING that seems to help me has a direct action on my hypothalamus.

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Oxygen---This one needs a dislcaimer, because last time I posted it it got some people upset.  The title is "Pure Oxygen can damage Brain" and I think the title is mostly a scare tactic to get you to read the article.  I DO NOT THINK OXYGEN IS BAD FOR YOU :)  The only thing I took from this article was that in this study researchers noted that pure oxygen ended up activating the childrens hypothalamus...(some people may disagree)

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It seems like whether it's testosterone, psilocybin, hot peppers, magnesium, or caffeine, they all are affecting the hypothalamus.  Again, maybe just a coincidence....but I find it hard to believe.

It is interesting  to me that the hypothalamus be affected when breathing pure oxygen since that is considered to be where our defect lies. 

Kevin,

Great post.  My degree was in chemistry so I chose the term neruochemistry rather than neurobiology...  semantics...  Chemical and biological processes in the body are clearly interrelated so my comments were directed at the complexity of the underlying chemical reactions that drive the biological manifestations we experience during a cluster headache as well as during an abort or in the prevention of a cluster headache.

Your comments on carbonic anhydrase are a good example.  It's perfectly acceptable to describe an enzymatic reaction in biological terms just as it's equally acceptable to address this reaction based on it's underlying chemical reaction.  In short, when a fluid containing large quantities of dissolved CO2 comes in contact with carbonic anhydrase, the net result is a rapid release of CO2 from solution as gaseous CO2.

Most of us have experienced a painful form of this reaction in less than a second after taking a sip of a carbonated drink like coke or pepsi on a hot day after a hard workout, but probably never gave it a second thought or wondered what was happening.  All we knew was we experienced a sharp pain in our chest. 

What was happening was the same carbonic anhydrase that exists in the alveoli to release or "cast off" dissolved CO2 from the venous blood is also contained in the saliva that lines the esophagus.  During a heavy workout in hot weather, carbonic anhydrase becomes more concentrated in the saliva lining the esophagus as our fluid levels drop.  When the first small quantity of a carbonated drink reaches the warm esophagus, a chemical reaction takes place releasing large quantities of CO2 gas and we experience a painful esophageal spasm.

The chemical reaction:

HCO₃^- + H⁺ --> carbonic anhydrase --> CO₂ + H₂O

In this chemical reaction that's common to the mouth, lungs and esophagus, carbonic anhydrase acts as a catalyst to release carbon dioxide from solution very rapidly.  It's also significant to note that the above chemical reaction also functions in reverse.  It happens as shown above in the lungs where the pH is high > 7.45.  However, in the tissues outside the lungs where the pH is much lower < 7.35, carbonic anhydrase helps drive the chemical equation in the opposite direction as shown below:

CO₂ + H₂O --> carbonic anhydrase --> HCO3^- + H⁺

So here is a biological process that involves the transport of CO2 from the tissues to the alveoli in the lungs where it's released very rapidly in exhaled breath... and carbonic anhydrase acts as a catalyst appropriately described as part of the underlying chemical reaction.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

I understand your long suit is chemistry, this was just next door.  :)  The 20th century age of physics brought chemistry a long way and with much more chemistry understanding, biology is taking flight this century.  It was simply that a neurobiologist was working on this when I read it.

You have composed such a good comprehension of how oxygen works for everybody here, I thought maybe you might be able to add this as a piece to the picture. 

When reading about this, it seemed that the carbonic anhydrase was more like "looking to attract" carbon dioxide rather than it being "cast off".  Maybe better called an "uptake". 


Quote:

However, in the tissues outside the lungs where the pH is much lower < 7.35, carbonic anhydrase helps drive the chemical equation in the opposite direction as shown below:

And yes, this was also true at the other end.    :)



Thanks for the great work, Batch.

Ricardo wrote on May 11^th, 2011 at 11:04am:

JHK07 wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 7:45am: lets face it,  probably the only reason to take the caffeine if for the vasocontriction properties.    Maybe....I understand how vasoconstriction in your brain could end up helping a cluster....BUT...I'm amazed by the "coincidence" that EVERYTHING that seems to help me has a direct action on my hypothalamus. Caffeine---START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE Capsaicin--START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE Oxygen---This one needs a dislcaimer, because last time I posted it it got some people upset.  The title is "Pure Oxygen can damage Brain" and I think the title is mostly a scare tactic to get you to read the article.  I DO NOT THINK OXYGEN IS BAD FOR YOU :)  The only thing I took from this article was that in this study researchers noted that pure oxygen ended up activating the childrens hypothalamus...(some people may disagree) START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE It seems like whether it's testosterone, psilocybin, hot peppers, magnesium, or caffeine, they all are affecting the hypothalamus.  Again, maybe just a coincidence....but I find it hard to believe.

I dunno, caffeine for me (energy drinks..  I actually like NOS)  "seems" to prolong cycle.   Kinda like the fire is about to go out, but let's throw some more wood on it.   

I really watch my caffeine intake and rarely drink any past 2pm.  I used to be caffeine free.    I have been cocky before and drank whatever I wanted.   That was a bad idea.

My worst clusters were when I was a heavy  coffee drinker. I'd get hit at night, soon as i hit the pillow.   I was stressed too. 

If I can just help 1 person by  suggesting that maybe they should try avoiding it.....   cool beans.   By no means am I telling anyone they are wrong.  Bottom line.... caffeine can be a yucky drug.   

Quote:

Bottom line.... caffeine can be a yucky drug.

Yeah, it can be.

It can also be a life-saver.

Brew wrote on May 12^th, 2011 at 10:25am:

Quote: Bottom line.... caffeine can be a yucky drug. Yeah, it can be. It can also be a life-saver.

I don't know how much caffeine you drink, but have you ever tried quitting  ?   Like for 2 or 3 months ?    I noticed immediately that I slept better. 

Just stop. Don't even go there.

JHK07 wrote on May 12^th, 2011 at 9:06am:

Ricardo wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 11:04am: JHK07 wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 7:45am: lets face it,  probably the only reason to take the caffeine if for the vasocontriction properties.    Maybe....I understand how vasoconstriction in your brain could end up helping a cluster....BUT...I'm amazed by the "coincidence" that EVERYTHING that seems to help me has a direct action on my hypothalamus. Caffeine---START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE Capsaicin--START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE Oxygen---This one needs a dislcaimer, because last time I posted it it got some people upset.  The title is "Pure Oxygen can damage Brain" and I think the title is mostly a scare tactic to get you to read the article.  I DO NOT THINK OXYGEN IS BAD FOR YOU :)  The only thing I took from this article was that in this study researchers noted that pure oxygen ended up activating the childrens hypothalamus...(some people may disagree) START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE It seems like whether it's testosterone, psilocybin, hot peppers, magnesium, or caffeine, they all are affecting the hypothalamus.  Again, maybe just a coincidence....but I find it hard to believe. I dunno, caffeine for me (energy drinks..  I actually like NOS)  "seems" to prolong cycle.   Kinda like the fire is about to go out, but let's throw some more wood on it.    I really watch my caffeine intake and rarely drink any past 2pm.  I used to be caffeine free.    I have been cocky before and drank whatever I wanted.   That was a bad idea. My worst clusters were when I was a heavy  coffee drinker. I'd get hit at night, soon as i hit the pillow.   I was stressed too.  If I can just help 1 person by  suggesting that maybe they should try avoiding it.....   cool beans.   By no means am I telling anyone they are wrong.  Bottom line.... caffeine can be a yucky drug.

I've stopped using all caffeine for periods of time and the head went wild!  When in heavy cycle I can go through 2-3 pots of coffee a day and 2-3 energy drinks and sleep like a baby with the head somewhat in check.  I've been known to slam a 5 hr energy and fall asleep 10 minutes later while working (but with the HA gone).

Just sayin'

Jerry

Kevin,

Thank you for the kind words...  I put myself in the "way-back" mode and recalled that the Flight Surgeons and Aviation Physiologists who taught our annual aviation physiology and oxygen safety courses described hemoglobin chemistry in the lungs using terms like "offload" and "cast off" when talking abut the release of CO2... 

I also checked the a couple of the aviation physiology texts I've collected over the years and the terms "cast off" and occasionally "blow off" were used most frequently in describing the chemical release of CO2 from hemoglobin passing through the lungs...

In the end... as a pilot and essentially a sailor...  I chose the term "cast off... "  It must be a nautical thing...

Regarding coffee and caffeine...  I roast my own coffee from green beans and down 2 to 3 big cups in the morning... 

Even if I have an Irish Coffee or Keoke Coffee after dinner getting to sleep is never a problem...  I've a mercury switch somewhere in my head and can easily drop into deep Zs not long after getting horizontal...  sneakers up.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Brew wrote on May 12^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

Just stop. Don't even go there.

"Raymond, what are you looking at? The ducks are over here. What are you looking at? "