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Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Cluster Headache Specific >> Vaso-dilation/constriction http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1268160478 Message started by LasVegas on Mar 9th, 2010 at 1:47pm |
Title: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by LasVegas on Mar 9th, 2010 at 1:47pm
Can somebody please explain or please post a link to easy to read articles defining the differences of Vasodilation and Vasoconstriction; and how each of these terms are relevant to CH's?
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Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Brew on Mar 9th, 2010 at 2:17pm |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by vietvet2tours on Mar 9th, 2010 at 2:18pm
constriction is smaller. Dilation means bigger. Hope this is simple enough for you.
potter |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by LasVegas on Mar 9th, 2010 at 2:37pm
That was easy to understand, thanks Brew :) thanks Potter :)
Now for the hard part, how are each of these terms relevant to CH's? |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Batch on Mar 9th, 2010 at 2:49pm
Brew...
Your animated response using lmgtfy.com is priceless!!! Well Done!!! V/R, Batch... Still ;D |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Bob_Johnson on Mar 9th, 2010 at 3:01pm
For decades the working theories about the cause of migraine and cluster centered around your question.
When Peter Goadsby's revolutionary brain studies hit the literature the shift has been to brain/nerve functioning as the cause of these disorders. This does not deny the involvement of blood vessels but has shifted it to secondary role as a primary issue. ============ Interesting to note that he is saying that the primary mode of action is NOT as a vasoconstrictor but on its effect on the central nervous system. Doesn't change our appreciation of this class of meds but suggests we need to change how we think about the nature of CH. ============================== Handb Exp Pharmacol. 2007;(177):129-43. Serotonin receptor ligands: treatments of acute migraine and cluster headache. Goadsby PJ. Institute of Neurology, Queen Square, London WC1N 3BG, UK. peterg@ion.ucl.ac.uk Fuelled by the development of the serotonin 5-HT(1B/1D) receptor agonists, the triptans, the last 15 years has seen an explosion of interest in the treatment of acute migraine and cluster headache. Sumatriptan was the first of these agonists, and it launched a wave of therapeutic advances. These medicines are effective and safe. Triptans were developed as cranial vasoconstrictors to mimic the desirable effects of serotonin, while avoiding its side-effects. IT HAS SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN SHOWN THAT THE TRIPTANS' MAJOR ACTION IS NEURONAL, WITH BOTH PERIPHERAL AND CENTRAL TRIGEMINAL INHIBITORY EFFECTS, AS WELL AS ACTIONS IN THE THALAMUS AND AT CENTRAL MODULATORY SITES, SUCH AS THE PERIAQUEDUCTAL GREY MATTER. Further refinements may be possible as the 5-HT(1D) and 5-HT(1F) receptor agonists are explored. Serotonin receptor pharmacology has contributed much to the better management of patients with primary headache disorders. PMID: 17087122 [PubMed] |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by LasVegas on Mar 9th, 2010 at 3:04pm
Bob Johnson, you are always consistent with your informative and relevant articles, thank you :)
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Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by angela40 on Mar 9th, 2010 at 6:56pm LasVegas wrote on Mar 9th, 2010 at 3:04pm:
I second that. Thank You Bob! |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by KJ on Mar 9th, 2010 at 8:02pm
Thank you, Bob. :)
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Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by monty on Mar 11th, 2010 at 5:37pm Quote:
Well put. The cluster headache is initiated in the hypothalamus. It signals (among other things) the trigeminal nerve to get angry. At least some of the pain is related to vasodilation. Vasodilators are one way to treat the symptoms. |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by monty on Mar 11th, 2010 at 8:55pm
Some interesting food for thought, Batch. It is good to think outside the box. Otherwise, we may be trapped in a dead-end of our own construction. Here are some responses to the main points raised.
1)– biological clocks are a good explanation for the duration of the headaches, and their regular frequency based on time of day and season of year. These are neuronal in nature, although nerves take us to every other possibility: anatomical, chemical, electrical, etc all come together when we say 'nerve'. 2)Yes, the one-sided nature of the beast is consistent with an injury or anatomical asymmetry. But it could also be related to balance --- the fact that the headaches sometime shift sides in the absence of any obvious injury or anatomical change raises questions of its own. Most people develop to be left-handed or right handed ... that is not about injury, it is reflection of nervous function. 3)Maybe the cluster type of headache simply has a different mechanism from migraine and is less likely to trigger vomiting. 4)Sounds reasonable at first glance, but not sure about the non-pulsatile nature. Most negative pulsing I have experienced is from vascular causes, sensitivity to changes in pressure with pulse. But that is not CH. 5)Oxygen, triptans and nitroglycerin point to vascular mechanisms at work. That does not establish it as primarily vascular, as a typical patient is only sensitive to nitroglycerin and alcohol in a cycle... the sensitivity is switched on and off by something else. 6)No, verapamil's effectiveness does not prove a non-neuronal basis. Nerve cells may be sensitive to the effects of calcium channel blockade, and they may be less likely to go haywire when on verapmil. 7)Tissue creep? Maybe some healing process occurs in some people, and this leads to remission … collagen plasters over an injury around the trigeminal and years of pain free time result. Consistent with last years headaches - went out of several years remission at an unusual time of year after vomiting through my nose ... the acid bath may have ulcerated a branch of my trigeminal. I think a model of circular causation is possible, where there is no single primary cause... several things may be needed to create a “circuit” that we call cluster headache. |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Batch on Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:59pm
Hey Monty,
Thanks for the comments... I like this... I offered up Dr. Gupta's letter merely as a different cut at the cluster headache pathophysiology so make no judgment other than to say it appears to carry some hefty logic... but not in all cases as you've pointed out... I agree a circular causation "circuit" model is possible... although I find it easier to rationalize the model as a series of sequential homeostatic processes with feedback or loop back control elements traversing synaptic and vascular paths as the attack progresses from trigger into the end game phase. Bias or perturb one or more of these processes out of it's normal cycle with an external stimulus or block a feed back receptor and the cluster headache triggers, intensifies, stagnates, or aborts. More to follow on this line of thinking... I like where we're going... Take care, V/R, Batch It's likely the vomit hit your sphenopalatine (Pterygopalatinum) ganglia... that must have stung like heck... it connects directly to the trigeminal nerve through the maxillary nerve (V2). Lots of evidence it plays a role... I've found that evaporative cooling of my sphenopalatine ganglia by freecycling 100% oxygen in the mouth and out the nose at 25 liters/minute has a moderating effect on cluster headache pain similar to a sphenopalatine ganglion block with topical lidocaine... The numbing isn't as pronounced and it doesn't last as long... but it clearly takes the edge off the pain... |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by LasVegas on Mar 12th, 2010 at 11:55pm
this is some great stuff guys :)
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Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Bob_Johnson on Mar 20th, 2010 at 9:21am
Just found this yesterday.
-------- J Clin Neurosci. 2010 Mar 11. What has functional neuroimaging done for primary headache ... and for the clinical neurologist? Sprenger T, Goadsby PJ. UCSF Headache Centre, Department of Neurology, University of California, 1701 Divisadero St, Suite 480, San Francisco, CA 94115, USA. Our understanding of mechanisms involved in primary headache syndromes has been substantially advanced using functional neuroimaging. THE DATA HAVE HELPED ESTABLISH THE NOW-PREVAILING VIEW OF PRIMARY HEADACHE SYNDROMES, SUCH AS MIGRAINE AND CLUSTER HEADACHE, AS BRAIN DISORDERS WITH NEUROVASCULAR MANIFESTATIONS, NOT AS DISORDERS OF BLOOD VESSELS. PMID: 20227279 [PubMed] |
Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Joni on Mar 20th, 2010 at 11:54am
Thanks Bob!
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Title: Re: Vaso-dilation/constriction Post by Joni on Mar 20th, 2010 at 11:55am
Well, thanks to you all for the discussion!
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