I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of r.c. seeds that maybe others have also wondered about. When anyone who has the answers also has the time, perhaps they could be answered.

1. Should the seeds be roughly crushed or finely powdered?
2. Should the H2O used to hydrolyze the seeds' contents be distilled or tap? What temperature?
3. What minimum/maximum time should elapse between dosings?
4. How many dosings should be tried before abandoning the treatment?
5. What chance that a batch of seeds from a reputable dealer could be worthless?
6. How long (i.e. minimum/maximum time) after dosing should any positive effects be noticed?

Most of the above questions have been addressed in this forum but a variety of answers have been given.

Thanks for your time and for sharing your knowledge.
 

bonkers wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 5:13pm:

I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of r.c. seeds that maybe others have also wondered about. When anyone who has the answers also has the time, perhaps they could be answered. 1. Should the seeds be roughly crushed or finely powdered? 2. Should the H2O used to hydrolyze the seeds' contents be distilled or tap? What temperature? 3. What minimum/maximum time should elapse between dosings? 4. How many dosings should be tried before abandoning the treatment? 5. What chance that a batch of seeds from a reputable dealer could be worthless? 6. How long (i.e. minimum/maximum time) after dosing should any positive effects be noticed? Most of the above questions have been addressed in this forum but a variety of answers have been given. Thanks for your time and for sharing your knowledge.

OH Bonkers...sounds like you are having a bit of turmoil...Hate that..
   I have all the same questions, as I am waiting for my seeds to come.
 
  You are right...a variety of answers come, and it is so confusing, especially when we feel a tad desperate.

thank you for asking those particular questions   wish I could help you     keep us posted!

you hang in there!          lorac
   

I would suspect that you will get the same variety of answers when asking the same group of people.

RC seed therapy is somewhat uncharted territory. Those of us who use or have used them can only offer our experiences. The rule book has not yet been written.

Did you check for any possible interaction with Methadone as suggested previously? It is also quite possible that Metahdone may be blocking any positive effects from the seeds.

Marc

Marc wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 12:01am:

RC seed therapy is somewhat uncharted territory. Those of us who use or have used them can only offer our experiences. The rule book has not yet been written. Marc

Well said Marc.

?1- doesnt matter

?2- good question. use lukewarm to cold water.
Tap water in many metro areas has high chlorine and chemical content that may diminish the LSA and other chemicals in the hydrolizing process but not sure.
There may be a chemist among us that could answer that.
I just dissolve the crushed seeds under the tonque.

?3- varies person to person for me 8 hours as a minimum. for many several days.

?5- its possible. interesting research from 1957
" One variety came from Cuba. It was smaller, and it did not have the same psychological effects. The Mexican variety was larger, however, and had more profound effects"
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?6- Some CH effect however small should be noticed fairly quick in my opinion but first you must find your own effective dose and as Marc says the methadone may be interfering.
Its all about serotonins ebb and flow it seems.

Thank you all for your answers so far to my questions. My only reason for thinking that Michael's use of Methadone may not be interfering with the action of the r.c. seeds was his very strongly positive reaction to a sub-psychedelic dose of LSD. He went 5 full, wonderful days w/o even his ever-present "background" headache. I'd like to be experimenting with stronger psychedelics, but they're illegal and very hard to come by. We looked for 8 months until finally hearing that a friend of ours knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody; and that somebody has now dropped below the radar. 

Quote:

I'd like to be experimenting with stronger psychedelics, but they're illegal...

Ingesting RC seeds is, too (cultivating them is not). That's not stopping anyone.

In for a dime, in for a dollar. Why not step up your search? Look for another somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody.... ;)

bonkers wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 5:13pm:

I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of r.c. seeds that maybe others have also wondered about. When anyone who has the answers also has the time, perhaps they could be answered. 1. Should the seeds be roughly crushed or finely powdered? 2. Should the H2O used to hydrolyze the seeds' contents be distilled or tap? What temperature? 3. What minimum/maximum time should elapse between dosings? 4. How many dosings should be tried before abandoning the treatment? 5. What chance that a batch of seeds from a reputable dealer could be worthless? 6. How long (i.e. minimum/maximum time) after dosing should any positive effects be noticed? Most of the above questions have been addressed in this forum but a variety of answers have been given. Thanks for your time and for sharing your knowledge.

Bonkers,

I would seriously start reading the START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE website.  You'll get many different answers to your questions from folks on here which may confuse you.  I would use the CB's as your base and then experiment from there.  All of those questions are answered on Clusterbusters and if they're not, you can ask Bob W the president of Clusterbusters.  Just read, read and read some more.
I didn't ask anybody on here how to use them other than where to buy them.  I printed out the umpteen pages on CB's site and keep it in the medicine cabinet.

Hey Bonkers, check yer private messages.  :)

bonkers wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 5:13pm:

I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of r.c. seeds that maybe others have also wondered about. When anyone who has the answers also has the time, perhaps they could be answered. 1. Should the seeds be roughly crushed or finely powdered?           just do a rough crush 2. Should the H2O used to hydrolyze the seeds' contents be distilled or tap? What temperature?          I use tap, room temp,           maybe slightly warm -not hot 3. What minimum/maximum time should elapse between dosings?         I have stuck with the        clusterbusters recommendation of 5 days 4. How many dosings should be tried before abandoning the treatment?      In my personal opinion, with your son's situation, I would keep trying, it may take many doses before significant results may be seen. 5. What chance that a batch of seeds from a reputable dealer could be worthless?      My supplier has always been iamshaman.com and I've never been disappointed.  Try another supplier 6. How long (i.e. minimum/maximum time) after dosing should any positive effects be noticed?      see # 4 above Most of the above questions have been addressed in this forum but a variety of answers have been given. Thanks for your time and for sharing your knowledge.

Bonkers, I can only speak from personal experience, and others have had different experiences with the seeds.  Don't give up too soon

Sandy

Brew, we're doing just that. I hope it doesn't take another 8 months.

Chad, we've read and continue to read both Clusterbusters and this forum. We're brand new here and will follow your kind advise. I'm 63 and retired so I've got the time and the passion to take this on as my new full-time job. Nothing is as important to me as getting my son a life.

Sandy_C, thanks. We ordered 100 seeds from Iamshaman, but received more like 250. Michael took 30 the first time, waited 4 days and took 45. No effect either time. We're going to wait 5 days, take 35, wait 5 days, take 35, etc., until they're gone. I'm going to order another 100 seeds and take them the same way. That should provide us with a pretty good test. Michael sees his doctor next week. We're going to ask for another O2 prescription and present him with the ammunition we now have for a high flow rate (at least 15 LPM) and a proper breathing apparatus. If we can't get 'em from him, we'll get 'em from someone else. If neither of these work, we'll continue to look for psychedelics and other remedies on this forum and elsewhere. We will find something that works.

Bonkers,

You're doing the right thing by retaining all you can here.
The best thing you did was finding this site because I must say it's been a lifesaver to me.
Best of luck to your son.  You're a great father for caring for him like that. 

Cheers,
Chad

bonkers wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 5:13pm:

I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of r.c. seeds that maybe others have also wondered about. When anyone who has the answers also has the time, perhaps they could be answered. 1. Should the seeds be roughly crushed or finely powdered?I use a coffee grinder 2. Should the H2O used to hydrolyze the seeds' contents be distilled or tap? What temperature? a couple ounces of plain ole tap soaked for 2 hours 3. What minimum/maximum time should elapse between dosings? Detox from all other meds.  I dosed 4 times 5 days apart, then monthly after that. 4. How many dosings should be tried before abandoning the treatment?  It worked for me, so I have no answer for this.  I did continue to get hit after the first couple doses.  It took dosing monthly for more than 6 months before I considered myself pf.  I did still get the random hit for almost a year. 5. What chance that a batch of seeds from a reputable dealer could be worthless?  If in doubt, buy another batch.  Worth the expense. 6. How long (i.e. minimum/maximum time) after dosing should any positive effects be noticed?  The hits did seem to get stronger after the first couple doses, then tapered off after that.  See my answer to 4 above. Most of the above questions have been addressed in this forum but a variety of answers have been given. Thanks for your time and for sharing your knowledge.

This has been my experience YMMV.

Beth

Chad, thanks. I've got a great son. I feel the same way as you do about this forum. The ONLY good thing that I've found about C.H.'s is the honest, heart-felt compassion and an anxiousness to help that they generate in others.

Midwestbeth, hi there. Thank you for sharing. What does YMMV mean?

Bonkers, please keep us posted on how Michael is doing.  We are all hoping and praying that the seeds will give him some relief.

By the way, you can order from iamshaman a bag of 500 seeds, last quite a while. But, don't keep them in the little plastic bag they come in.  Get a small jelly jar with a screw top lid, put the seeds in, screw it down tight, and store the jar in the fridge.  I helps to keep the seeds fresh and from my experience, they don't seem to lose much potency..

Sandy

Your Mileage May Vary.

Thank you for your interest in my son, Sandy - and to everyone else on this forum. I'm really sorta shocked at the response. Until just a few days ago, we were alone. Not any more. It feels kinda like we've been adopted by a really big family.

I'll continue to stay active on this forum and keep you all posted on our progress. A couple more days till the next dose of seeds and an appointment with Michael's Pain Doc mid next week. We'll tell him of our success with LSD - which should surprise the hell out of him - and request an Rx for O2. By the way, should a quality, non-rebreather mask and a 15-25 LPM regulator be available from the supplier if I can talk the Dr. into prescribing them?

Brew, that one I never would have guessed. Thanks.

bonkers wrote on Oct 17^th, 2009 at 2:11am:

Thank you for your interest in my son, Sandy - and to everyone else on this forum. I'm really sorta shocked at the response. Until just a few days ago, we were alone. Not any more. It feels kinda like we've been adopted by a really big family. I'll continue to stay active on this forum and keep you all posted on our progress. A couple more days till the next dose of seeds and an appointment with Michael's Pain Doc mid next week. We'll tell him of our success with LSD - which should surprise the hell out of him - and request an Rx for O2. By the way, should a quality, non-rebreather mask and a 15-25 LPM regulator be available from the supplier if I can talk the Dr. into prescribing them?

First off, yes you have joined a big family. Except most real families don't treat each other with this much respect.

Second, most oxygen supply houses aren't going to have regulators that go up past 15 lpm. You can either buy one on ebay or get two of them and connect them with a "T" fitting, open them up to full, and have one line going to the mask at 30 lpm.

Third, here's the mask you want:

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I get the less expensive one because I prefer using the mouthpiece. But those who prefer the mask fitting have reported that the more expensive one is REALLY nice. I actually have three - one at home, one in the car, and one at the office.

ya...the clustermask is the BEST.  no comparison, I am about to order another, for my mobile unit. :)

lorac wrote on Oct 17^th, 2009 at 8:54am:

ya...the clustermask is the BEST.  no comparison, I am about to order another, for my mobile unit. :)

Except the clustermasx is no longer available. This one is called the O₂ptimask and is the one available here on clusterheadaches.com.

OH !  well you mean what I know !

I don't want to keep my fingers crossed so tightly that I lose circulation in them, but the last 3 days have been remarkably mild for Michael. His main complaint has been an inability to sleep. Could it be that the seeds . . . . ? It's about time for another dose. We'll just have to see. I don't want to get our hopes up. We'll keep you posted, if . . I . . . can just . . . . get . . my fingers . . . uncrossed.

Oh MAN would that not be the greatest thing ever if that mild trend could continue??!!

Don't worry I knocked on wood feverishly when typed that.

Between your finger crossing strain and my wood knocking  knuckle scrapes we may both have to file claims for SRHI (superstition related hand injuries).   :o

Bejeeber, thanks for the lift and the laugh!

bonkers wrote on Oct 19^th, 2009 at 4:12pm:

I don't want to keep my fingers crossed so tightly that I lose circulation in them, but the last 3 days have been remarkably mild for Michael. His main complaint has been an inability to sleep. Could it be that the seeds . . . . ? It's about time for another dose. We'll just have to see. I don't want to get our hopes up. We'll keep you posted, if . . I . . . can just . . . . get . . my fingers . . . uncrossed.

OH YEA!....we are all pulling for ya. :)
  Keep us posted as to his progress.   

bonkers wrote on Oct 19^th, 2009 at 4:12pm:

His main complaint has been an inability to sleep. Could it be that the seeds . . . . ?

It shouldn't be the seeds.  They usually make me sleep like a baby with interesting dreams :)

Maybe anxiety.

Chad wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 8:11am:

bonkers wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 4:12pm: His main complaint has been an inability to sleep. Could it be that the seeds . . . . ? It shouldn't be the seeds.  They usually make me sleep like a baby with interesting dreams :)

I have the same experience with seeds, sleep like a baby.  I think Brew nailed it with the anxiety.  Fear of ch is what kept me awake for almost a year (ok, I did get some sleep, but there were nights that I got 0 hours of sleep and then went to work in the morning)

Kepping everything crossed for Michael.

Beth

P.S. Thanks Brew for explaining the YMMV.  I didn't see that.

My equation is also seeds = sleep as in baby.  :)

I'm a firm believer that anxiety can be alive and well even after we fall asleep. We'll either sleep very poorly or we'll keep waking up, which is sort of the same thing.

Good ideas you guys, but I think it more likely that he's so used to having a constant headache that feeling even moderately well is almost a new experience for him. Makes him kinda hyper and happy and unsleepy. Just my opinion.

YGIAGAM

(Your guess is as good as mine) ;)

I've recently been experimenting with the seeds and so far, it's too early to tell.

1st dose was 30 seeds, 2nd was 35, 3rd was 42, and last night was dose #4, which was 52 seeds.

I've been getting blasted for the past few weeks s far as numbers of hits. However, the past week has lightened up a bit. Like I said though, too early to tell, but have hope.

No side effects really. Lights get a bit brighter but that is it. Ater a few hours, I have no problems sleeping. Been dosing 5-8 days apart. I use a pepper mill grinder to crush them up, then pour room temp distilled water. Have let them steep as little as 4 hours or as long as 27 hours.

I'll know they're working if I suddenly stop getting CH's.  ;)

Peace & good luck,
Carl D

Completely detoxed, Carl?

Brew wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 4:31pm:

Completely detoxed, Carl?

Off of all triptans, but some meds I cannot go more than a day without, other wise It'll cause more problems.
The day I dose though, I don't take any meds from the time I wake up, don't eat & just drink water, then go for as long as I possibly can before dosing.

I've been told that either  a) my other meds will block the medicinal effects of the rc,  or   b) the other meds shouldn't be of consequence if not taken before the dose.

I look at it this way: I don't have anything to lose by trying.

Sounds to me like you're doing everything you can to get the best results from the RC Carl, so we'll be very interested in hearing the continuing results.

Best o' luck to ya!  8-)

bonkers wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 9:24pm:

Good ideas you guys, but I think it more likely that he's so used to having a constant headache that feeling even moderately well is almost a new experience for him. Makes him kinda hyper and happy and unsleepy. Just my opinion.

Yeah I would imagine that feeling moderately well would be  like a revelation for Michael - I sure hope that continues.

Saw Mike's Doc day b4 yesterday. He seemed incredulous that LSD worked but didn't discourage us from trying it or other psychedelics. Wouldn't give us an Rx for O2 - wanted to go back through Mike's chart and see how he had prescribed it b4 and would then mail us the Rx. I think he was afraid we might do something dangerous, like use a non-rebreather mask or try a flow rate >10 LPM. Whatever. I'll get industrial O2 and buy/lease a tank and the rest on my own.

On a lighter note: Mike's STILL relatively PF. Still has the background headache (which may, at least in part, be caused by the methadone) and occasional spikes that start but don't go anywhere. But, he's out of bed, active, walks around with this goofy grin. We took a short hike yesterday. Cool, huh? Maybe there's something to these crazy little r.c. seeds after all.

bonkers wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 2:13pm:

Maybe there's something to these crazy little r.c. seeds after all.

One way to find out - start backing him down from the methadone.

Does anyone eles still get solo hits?? i had a real bad night last friday. woke at 2.40 with that old familaiar feeling, 10mins of 02 back to sleep. 4.40 woke me up again this time at kip 8 and moving up fast, 10 minutes of 02 nervously back to bed, and woke again at 6.20 for the 3rd cluster in a night. Just did seeds 2 weeks ago. Re dosed saturday and have had nothing yet (thank Goodness). 3 in one night freaked me out and made wonder about the seeds.
i had a pretty nasty head cold, im just wondering about the solo hits. 

                                coach Bill

That's just what we're doing, Brew. This is the 8th day and counting, relatively PF. Down from 12/day to 10. He doesn't care much for the withdrawal. Tough shit. Sure beats the hell out of C.H's!! I'm curious to see if O2 helps with the withdrawal. Anybody have any experience with that?

bonkers wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 2:13pm:

n. On a lighter note: Mike's STILL relatively PF. Still has the background headache (which may, at least in part, be caused by the methadone) and occasional spikes that start but don't go anywhere. But, he's out of bed, active, walks around with this goofy grin. We took a short hike yesterday. Cool, huh? Maybe there's something to these crazy little r.c. seeds after all.

That is just way beyond cool.  :) ;D ;D ;D ;D 8-)

Bonkers, if necessary, get welders O2.  Buy the NON rebreather mask,(can be bought here and on e-bay, and buy a regulator that can go to a minimum of 15 lpm also available here on maybe e-bay (not sure).

Welder's 02 is the same stuff as medical 02.  I use it.  I have a lovely tanks, standing about 4' high in my living room that I rent for about $56 per year.  It costs me roughly $17 for a refill.  Get it.

To Coach Bill.  When you first begin dosing with the seeds, it is really common to have several days and nights of pretty heavy hits.  Do a re-dose, wait, dose again.  It takes several days to even a few weeks before you might see a positive change.

Do not give up.

Sandy

Sandy_C wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 6:07pm:

...........................................................Bonkers, if necessary, get welders O2.  Buy the NON rebreather mask,(can be bought here and on e-bay, and buy a regulator that can go to a minimum of 15 lpm also available here on maybe e-bay (not sure). Welder's 02 is the same stuff as medical 02.  I use it.  I have a lovely tanks, standing about 4' high in my living room that I rent for about $56 per year.  It costs me roughly $17 for a refill.  Get it..................... Do not give up. Sandy

Sandy,

Good post, and I strongly agree with everything including welding O2 -  except.........:

Start with a higher flow regulator. Oxygen at 8-15 lpm works for some folks really well, but it is my personal experience that intractable cases often need more.  Much more.

A 15 lpm regulator can be purchased for the same cost as a 25 lpm regulator and can be adjusted down to 6 lpm if that's all you need.  But, a 15 lpm cannot be adjusted up to 25 lpm or higher in case you need that.....

I tend to preach this point because the jump from 15 lpm to 25 lpm suddenly made O2 a viable abortive for me.

Boosting to 45 lpm was a miraculous discovery for me. I'm broke so I like the idea of buying the right one the first time  :)

Marc

Hi Marc. Would you please tell us where you buy your regulators, and maybe a recommendation as to model? Thanks.

bonkers wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 2:13pm:

Wouldn't give us an Rx for O2 - wanted to go back through Mike's chart and see how he had prescribed it b4 and would then mail us the Rx.

Hey Doc, could ya put a little "giddyup" into your step please??

Some docs see clusters as a chronic condition that requires no urgency at all. Maybe when he's done looking at the chart, he can get himself a "pathy" bone implant. He seems to have been born without an "em" or a "sym".  :(

Bob

Marc,

In my post I said a MINIMUM of 15 lpm.  When I bought my regulator over three years ago, 15 lpm was considered what was needed to help, and I found a regulator that went that high. 

Since that time, a regulator that can go to 25 lpm minimum, has become the recommended choice.

Fortunately, because I consider myself to be one of the very lucky ones having CH, my little 15 lpm has done the job for me, along with the seeds.  If it wasn't doing it's job, I too would immediately get a regulator with the highest flow rate I could find, but, if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it.   :)

Anything I post with regard to my use of seeds, or to O2 is only what I know from my own personal experience.  I can't post about anything that I've never personally tried, and never will,  but can only give information on those things that I have tried.

:-*

Sandy

Pinkfloyd wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 2:17pm:

Maybe when he's done looking at the chart, he can get himself a "pathy" bone implant. He seems to have been born without an "em" or a "sym".  :( Bob

Guess he was born with only an "a" before his "pathy".   :o

Hi Pinkfloyd. Mike and I both feel that his Doctor, while neither a Neurologist nor a Headache Specialist (he's a neck/back pain specialist), has an extraordinarily good heart and really cares about Michael. He's even told Michael's story at several pain specialist seminars and asked for suggestions. I shouldn't judge, but I don't think that he believes that there's any value to be found in any medical treatments or ideas unless they emanate from the brains of people that have either an MD or a PhD following their names. I'm sure he doesn't appreciate medical suggestions offered by his patients.

bejeeber, Sandy_C, Brew, Marc, thanks for your support and suggestions. They are appreciated and will be followed.

BTW, 9 days and still counting. Michael is confident enough that he planned an evening out with a friend tonight - the first in a REALLY long time. Something came up . . . but, still.

I think Michael's Doctor has all his "pathy" parts pretty well intact - they just need a little lubrication to keep them running smoothly and free from ego.

bonkers wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 11:42pm:

I think Michael's Doctor has all his "pathy" parts pretty well intact - they just need a little lubrication to keep them running smoothly and free from ego.

Hey, if you and Michael are happy with the guy, thats cool. Its tough to find someone you can trust and that will work with you.
There are plenty of MDs that have put their stamp of approval on 02 therapy for clusters.
And, yep its fine (and good) that he wants to check into it before prescribing it, but then to want to *mail* the script? Maybe he can research the latest document sending techniques......fax or email.

Maybe its just me and my mood. Don't mind me.
Sorry but I guess the older I get, the less patience I have.

Hope things continue to go well,
Bob

Pinkfloyd, please don't think I disagree with your estimation of Michael's doctor, given my description of his care thus far. I appreciate that you're obviously looking out for us. I clearly, though subconsciously, conveyed that I'm kinda pissed off at him. And I am. He should have given us the Rx. If he was ONLY looking out for Michael's best interests, he would have. I think what happened was, that when I told him of our success with the LSD, and subsequently with the r.c. seeds, I did it with a "see, I was right and you were wrong; I fixed him when you weren't able to" attitude. I then asked for the O2 Rx, maybe sorta triumphantly; and I think gave the impression that we would probably use it however we saw fit, considering our obvious previous success. My bad. He was, I think, just being defensive and exercising his power to prescribe to regain control. His bad. Michael's loss. My fault as much as the Doctor's. I need to put my ego aside and do whatever is necessary in order to help my son get his life back. It's just so hard not to grin when I think of all the drugs that have failed, along with all their horrible side effects; then along came these cheap, funky, little seeds.

bonkers wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 2:01am:

It's just so hard not to grin when I think of all the drugs that have failed, along with all their horrible side effects; then along came these cheap, funky, little seeds.

Theres a lot of us with that same grin Bonkers.

Great to see the positive results.

9! 9! 9!

Grinning from ear to ear about those 9 incredible days relatively PF. ;D :)

bonkers wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 2:01am:

I need to put my ego aside and do whatever is necessary in order to help my son get his life back. .

I think you're doing a great job looking out for your son's best interests, and you should reward yourself with a grin now and then. This is not an easy battleground to navigate and each victory should be humbly appreciated and enjoyed. It helps getting thru the tough times, knowing that there are victories to be won in the future.

Bob

Thanks everyone. I'm humbled by the level of support you've so generously offered my son and me. We don't know any of you except through your written words. The amount of honest, loving heart conveyed through those words - from strangers - is a new experience for me. I guess it's like being in war; the folks who are shoulder-to-shoulder with one another, while the bullets are flying overhead, they come to love each other; to see in each other themselves and with that identification comes, I think, a desire to protect and shelter the other as oneself. Those who suffer this affliction experience a level of pain and devastation to their lives almost unique in medical science. Michael's case is, I think, especially severe. Like mother hens, you guys have spread your wings and come a-runnin.' It's really cool.

A question please, if anyone's listening. It's been 5 days since the last dose of seeds. Early afternoon we ground up the seeds and set them to soak. Michael took his methadone early A.M. with plan to wait as long as possible b4 taking seeds and as long as possible after seeds b4 taking methadone. He takes methadone twice/day and has withdrawn from 12/day to 10/day over the last few days. He forgot to take the seeds b4 we went to town this afternoon (we live a long way from town so that's 3 hrs. b4 we got back). Now it's too late to take seeds and be able to wait any length of time afterwards b4 taking methadone. So, we'll have to wait till tomorrow. My question is: will the seed slurry retain its potency till tomorrow afternoon? - the ground-up seeds will have been soaking in water for about 24 hrs. - or, shall I not take the chance and just toss 'em out and soak a new batch tomorrow? (Sorry for the length).

Those will work. Use new ones if you like as well.
IMHO ;)
the bb

I'm no expert on the subject as you know Bonkers, but from what I've heard around here, I believe that brewski oughta be just fine. If it was me I think I might just refrigerate it.

Just got back from the mailbox. In it I found an O2 Rx for Michael from his Dr. I think I'm going to have to not be mad at him anymore. The Rx states:

       Rx
       Oxygen portable gaseous system w/ non-rebreathing apparatus at 15 L/min

       Dx: Chronic, severe cephagia w/ cluster phenomena (307.81)

Cool, huh?

bonkers wrote on Oct 27^th, 2009 at 10:03pm:

Just got back from the mailbox. In it I found an O2 Rx for Michael from his Dr. I think I'm going to have to not be mad at him anymore. The Rx states:        Rx        Oxygen portable gaseous system w/ non-rebreathing apparatus at 15 L/min        Dx: Chronic, severe cephagia w/ cluster phenomena (307.81) Cool, huh?

Any doc that prescribes O2 in my mind is good enough in my book.  My old neuro prescribed it to me, however with not being in cycle at that time I never pursued it since my insurance doesn't cover.  I was being cheap.  It really isn't that bad out of your pock with buying your own regulator and mask.  Well, my script ran out last December.  I made it through a short 14 day cycle a month ago and I owe that to the seeds.  I guess what i'm getting at is if the doc gives you the script for O2, take it and keep your mouth closed about the hallucinogens because most of the docs will shake their heads as mine did and I walked out of his office furious.  I have a new neuro who is a headache pain management specialist and i'm just going to him for the O2.  I won't even consider bringing up the seeds.  It's sad we have to be quiet about this to our "close" minded neuros when a lot of using it have more success using seeds rather than preventative drugs. 

Chad wrote on Oct 28^th, 2009 at 2:01pm:

It's sad we have to be quiet about this to our "close" minded neuros when a lot of using it have more success using seeds rather than preventative drugs.

It's sad alright. it's thoroughly twisted and insane when you really stop to think about it.

When people have a knee jerk dismissive reaction upon coming across a claim of any sort of therapeutic benefits of  hallucinogens, especially LSD, it would be hypocritical of me to rail against them all holier than thou though, because I can remember scoffing myself when I first saw the subject broached.

Reality is, there's a HUGE stigma attached to LSD, and I'm wishing we had a term without stigma we could use to refer to this class of therapeutics. When the terms "hallucinogens", or "psychedelics" are uttered, they are sure to immediately get a lot of hackles up and close a lot of minds.

Regarding the Bonkers doctor: He's back to being an unusually good guy/doc in my book too now that he actually wrote the non-rebreather 15 LPM prescription (!!!!!).  ;D

Quote:

Reality is, there's a HUGE stigma attached to LSD,

Alternatives in general.
14 states now have legal marijuana for medicinal purposes. I like herbal abortive. I never trip, I dose.
These social barriers, stigma's, labels, and stereotypes are impeding sensible medicine and causing much needless pain and suffering .
all the best
the bb

The first time we tried the seeds, their effect was most pronounced the day after they were taken. They continued to be effective for almost 2 weeks, while we continued to take them every 5 days. Michael's headaches returned - though not in "full force" - day b4 yesterday. He took the seeds yesterday. Today is the day after and Michael's headaches are worse than they were yesterday. Should we take them again tomorrow or wait the usual 5 days? Or, are we still experimenting here and we can take 'em whenever we want?

Until you can find a reliable source of "bigger guns" like shrooms or LSD, try experimenting with the seeds to see what works for him. They are dirt cheap in comparison to anything except oxygen therapy.

The conventional thinking is the 5-7 day spacing, but there have been people reporting good results with much closer spacing.

Remember that it's largely uncharted territory.

Best of luck to you two.

bonkers wrote on Oct 28^th, 2009 at 7:23pm:

The first time we tried the seeds, their effect was most pronounced the day after they were taken. They continued to be effective for almost 2 weeks, while we continued to take them every 5 days. Michael's headaches returned - though not in "full force" - day b4 yesterday. He took the seeds yesterday. Today is the day after and Michael's headaches are worse than they were yesterday. Should we take them again tomorrow or wait the usual 5 days? Or, are we still experimenting here and we can take 'em whenever we want?

Current thought is that any dosing done sooner than the 5-7 day spacing will simply be wasted - not that it'll hurt you. It has something to do with the way the indole ring molecules "latch" into the neural cells. Apparently if they're locked in place, other new ones cannot make their way in. That's why so many LSD users from days gone by report tripping their @$$e$ off on Friday night, then want to repeat the fun on Saturday and, bada-bing bada-boom, nothing. They eventually learn that it's a "once a weekend" thing.

Thanks you guys. We'll wait and see what tomorrow brings.

Just throwing ideas around here - wouldn't upping the dose potentially provide some benefit? Like a full 100 or more seeds?

I would imagine that would still be like nothing compared to the 1/2 hit of LSD that Michael tried. Granted, not all 1/2 hits of LSD are created equal, mileage can vary so wildly there.

The higher doses  following a single dose appear to follow the the multi day rules/quidelines and in my opinion have no more value than the single smallest (effective) dose that had some effect on the CH. with RC seeds.

Bonkers your son and I may be similar in the strength and frequency of the hits I experienced for 30 some years before the seeds came over 4 years ago.

I approach the dosing a bit different and see it as a chemical balance thing vs a knock em out fight and this works well for me.

Due to extreme work loads recently I let my control of CH with the seeds slip, as I felt they were causing some concentration issues, and lo and behold with no seeds taken over 3 months the ch has returned in a mild but increasing state. At night they were pacers and the days fairly constant. Its ruined my power napping abilities for sure.

I dosed with a larger dose of fresh RC seeds. The following 2 days were fairly rough. I dosed again with just 5 seeds in the morning and again in the late evening. I am now consuming just 4-5 seeds on a daily basis for the past 2 weeks and keeping the CH at bay, though I feel them lurking waiting to break out. Tommorrow I will give it a break.

If no adverse effects from the seeds to date dont be afraid to experiment to find what works for you. The worst outcome would possibly be no affect at all.
The RC seeds and the dosage are not a one size fits all thing.

Thanks. I think we'll experiment but keep track and post. Maybe learn something.

BTW, yesterday's dose was 45 seeds, same as the last time. Michael had a bad but not horrible day today and no spikes that knocked him out.

hi MJ/others... I am awaiting my seeds (& O2), heading into my 5th week of cycle and should've been on to this much sooner but stupidly was optimistic this time!  No meds, just water water water and Im getting hammered.
My question is, should I start with 10 seeds or what?  I am sensitive to drugs, eg used to smoke dope 25 years ago but it began to disagree with me, have tried it maybe 4 or 5 times since, last time only a couple of puffs had me trippy for 12 hours + ! I just want an effective dose, not a trip!

CC its recomended to start with a lower dose of say 10-12 seeds to see if you would have any adverse effects.
Read the clusterbusters.com site and all the warnings there.

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Most end up after a trial using anywhere from 15 to 30 seeds. But remember the strength of the seeds can and will vary from batch to batch and even seed to seed. There is no way to track potency without a laboratory analysis.

thanks MJ, 10 it is then.
I did read all the CB info but will check the post link also ta.  Just being paranoid I guess & havent even taken anything yet  ::)
CC

Today's about the same as yesterday, maybe a little worse; but still no blackouts. I guess, like my mom said, we should be thankful for small favors.

Might be the Methadone conflicting with the seeds, but on the other hand without Methadone it is unbearable... would be really hellish week of detoxing...

I guess time to pull put bigger guns, Psylocybin or the LSD that worked for Michael.

It's been awhile so I thought I'd check in. Michael's pretty despondent; Doesn't want to take the r.c. seeds anymore and his Dr. won't give him any more methadone than he's giving him now. After the first of the year I think he's going to look around for a Dr. who'll give him whatever he wants. Or maybe he's just blowin' smoke. Who knows. I told him he's a grown man and can do whatever he wants. I'd have killed myself a long time b4 now if I were him. He's not there yet, but a man's got to find his own way in this life. All I can do is be there for him.

Being peace in mind and relaxed, knowing family is caring also makes it easier to suffer pain, I would definetly try psylocibin or LSD this time and if that does not work.. try other means, try every possible mean to help him stop suffering the pain, it is so bad feeling in your brain, that it completely stuns you.

bonkers wrote on Oct 27^th, 2009 at 10:03pm:

Just got back from the mailbox. In it I found an O2 Rx for Michael from his Dr.

What of the oxygen script?

We're just waiting for Michael's Social Security check. I can't front him the money because I don't have it to give him. Please don't ask me to explain why.

Quote:

his Doctor, while neither a Neurologist nor a Headache Specialist (he's a neck/back pain specialist), I need to put my ego aside and do whatever is necessary in order to help my son get his life back. Michael's pretty despondent; Doesn't want to take the r.c. seeds anymore and his Dr. won't give him any more methadone than he's giving him now. After the first of the year I think he's going to look around for a Dr. who'll give him whatever he wants.

Being nothing to do with ego on your part, I was wondering if it might cross consideration, due to the last quote included above, that a point could be conceived, as a thought, whereas the drug is talking for Michael.

bonkers wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 9:41pm:

It's been awhile so I thought I'd check in. Michael's pretty despondent; Doesn't want to take the r.c. seeds anymore and his Dr. won't give him any more methadone than he's giving him now. After the first of the year I think he's going to look around for a Dr. who'll give him whatever he wants. Or maybe he's just blowin' smoke. Who knows. I told him he's a grown man and can do whatever he wants. I'd have killed myself a long time b4 now if I were him. He's not there yet, but a man's got to find his own way in this life. All I can do is be there for him.

Why does he not want to take the seeds anymore?
   

I just hope you guys can find some LSD or psylocibin, since the LSD provided the most dramatic relief so far.

Sounds like a very critical situation in a screwed up world where a substance that could bring relief is just out of reach.

I suppose you've looked into whether there would be any fields around where psylocibin grows and could be picked?

I know thats a real long shot - it may not be the right time of year, or right climate in general there, and then if someone could tell you where the fields are, they could probably tell you where to get some without having to pick it yourself. Last I heard, they grow on cow poo (???)

There's a lot of truth in what you say Kevin_M; but I think rather that it's a matter of fear on Michael's part that the only legal thing that has brought him any relief whatsoever might be withdrawn from him. I'm doing everything I can to find something other than LSD that will work for him. I'm also doing everything I can to find some more LSD.

We haven't given up on the seeds as yet, lorac. Early this afternoon, I ground up in a coffee grinder, soaked in a small amount of H2O for several hours, strained through a coffee filter and poured down Michael's throat, the solution obtained from 116 r.c. seeds. There appear to be about that many left. In 5 or 6 days, I'll repeat the procedure with that remainder. That should provide a pretty good test. I'll get back to you with the results.

Bejeeber, I agree with every word you wrote. The only thing is, I wouldn't have Michael eat any wild mushroom I picked unless an EXPERT identified it. Even the spores are illegal to possess and transport across state lines in Calif. So, I'd have to find someone here in Calif. who could identify the wild mushrooms for me and then take off. Any takers?

The first time I picked in 74 I had only the knowledge that I had gleaned from pictures and books.  Cubensis is a fairly easy species to ID.  To start with, in my experience, all the fields I have picked were dairy farm pastures ( if the cows ain't got udders then no shrooms ).  I believe this is because dairy cattle have grain in their diet but not sure?

Of the 3 or 4 types I have found growing on cow patties, only the magic ones looked anything like the pics I had.  And finally, as far as I know, sillycybin's are the only ones that stain cyan blue when you crush the flesh of the cap or stipe as a result of oxidation.

The biggest problem I always had was finding fields that you could gain access to without being observed......I ended up almost 150 miles from where I began searching the first time I picked....LOL

Dallas Denny

Veeery interesting, Dallas Denny 62. If I'm to believe what you say, identifying them really isn't that big a deal, huh? Think I'll spend a little time learning about P. Cubinsis, in it's natural habitat. I'll bet there're some amateur/professional mycologists reading this post who could turn me on to a couple of reputable websites where I could learn all I need to learn. BTW, I live in San Diego. So, anyone within, say, 150 mi. that's going on field-trips (for identification purposes only) that could use an extra hand, please let me know.

bonkers wrote on Nov 11^th, 2009 at 4:06am:

I ground up in a coffee grinder, soaked in a small amount of H2O for several hours, strained through a coffee filter and poured down

Bonkers there are many other ergolines in the seeds that may be beneficial to CH. In addition to the LSA. These may or may not remain in the seeds following soaking
If its just the liquid used then try consuming the seed sludge as well. Tastes like dirt but if it helps.
I generally disove the whole crushed seeds direct under my tonque then wash down the remainder to soak.

MJ, it sounds like you're saying that you just count out the seeds, put them in your mouth and one way or another get them down into your stomach; maybe washed down with a glass of water. Is that right?

I grind up 100 rc seeds in a pepper mill and add it to about 4 oz of water with a dash of fresh squeezed lemon juice to extract all of the LSA.  Cover it and let it soak for 1-2 hours and then just down the whole thing, sludge and all.   

slacker032 wrote on Nov 12^th, 2009 at 3:40am:

I grind up 100 rc seeds in a pepper mill and add it to about 4 oz of water with a dash of fresh squeezed lemon juice to extract all of the LSA.  Cover it and let it soak for 1-2 hours and then just down the whole thing, sludge and all.

That's interesting about the lemon juice.
Where did you find that info?

Chad wrote on Nov 12^th, 2009 at 9:22am:

slacker032 wrote on Nov 12th, 2009 at 3:40am: I grind up 100 rc seeds in a pepper mill and add it to about 4 oz of water with a dash of fresh squeezed lemon juice to extract all of the LSA.  Cover it and let it soak for 1-2 hours and then just down the whole thing, sludge and all.    That's interesting about the lemon juice. Where did you find that info?

I got the idea from Pink's Mushroom Tea recipe off the Cluster Busters site.  The idea is that the lemon juice separates the psilocybin from the mushroom more rapidly.  I figure that you could infer it would be the same for the LSA in the seeds. 

slacker032 wrote on Nov 12^th, 2009 at 11:48am:

That's interesting about the lemon juice. Where did you find that info?I got the idea from Pink's Mushroom Tea recipe off the Cluster Busters site.  The idea is that the lemon juice separates the psilocybin from the mushroom more rapidly.  I figure that you could infer it would be the same for the LSA in the seeds.

Thanks for that info.  I'll have to check that out and try it next dose.

bonkers wrote on Nov 12^th, 2009 at 12:29am:

MJ, it sounds like you're saying that you just count out the seeds, put them in your mouth and one way or another get them down into your stomach; maybe washed down with a glass of water. Is that right?

That was a poor communication by me.

I first crush or powder the seeds with either a pliers or coffee grinder and then dissolve sublinqually under the tonque.
The rate of absorption is maybe 5 minutes, acts far more rapidly and direct to the bloodstream and brain in a similar timeframe.
The unabsorbed bits are swallowed after the majority of the powdered seeds are dissoved.

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"psychoactives may too be applied sublingually. LSD, MDMA, morphine, alprazolam, clonazepam, and many other drugs including the psychedelic tryptamines and phenethylamines are all viable candidates for administration via this route. Most often, the drug in question is powdered and placed in the mouth (often directly under the tongue). If held there long enough, the drug will diffuse into the blood stream, bypassing the GI tract. This is definitely a preferred method to simple oral administration, because MAO is known to oxidize many drugs (especially the tryptamines such as DMT) and because this route translates the chemical directly to the brain, where most psychoactives act."

I'm learning a lot from this thread!  Thanks!

Well, the guy from oxygen supply just delivered our setup. Total junk. No way to get a seal, tiny bag etc. Regulator does max out at 15 LPM, but what I'm hearing from most of you is that more is better. There is a kindly member of this forum living near me who, I believe, when time permits, will show us his setup and how he uses it. We should be able to order a high quality mask next week. At this point, that's the weakest link. We'll see how it works with the regulator we have and go from there. We appreciate all the help. Thanks a lot. We'll keep you posted. Mike and Ron. (Bonkers was (is) a nickname we had for Michael when he was a child.)

Any luck with O2, or continued efforts with seeds?

Marc

bonkers wrote on Nov 13^th, 2009 at 3:47pm:

... just delivered our setup. Total junk. No way to get a seal, tiny bag etc. Regulator does max out at 15 LPM, ...

Well heck then, I've seen posted just excluding the whole bag and mask and inhaling straight from the hose if necessary.  15Lpm has helped many.  Could give'r a go likewise until better can be obtained.   :) 

Hi Ron.

I'm glad to know your name.  You are a phenomenal Dad to Mike.

Please do keep us posted on his progress.  We do care,very much.

Sandy

I apologize for not being available these last couple of days. Michael's acting all weird, or wired, or I don't know what, but very strange. Like he's taken some other drug, but he denies it. Not like the headache's are particularly bad; It's almost as if he isn't having headaches at all. He's walking all goofy but says he sprained his ankle. His speech is sorta incoherent but he doesn't notice it. He's doing all sorts of odd things, like leaving a package of hamburger in the bathroom or a bag of clothes in the living room and then denying it. He left the refrigerator door open, not ajar, but wide open. Then he denies doing these things. He isn't sleeping much; I'm sure that's part of it. Big rashes under his arms and between his legs. Always thirsty. He went on a hike with one of his friends Sunday morning and may have picked up something he's allergic to. I'm keeping a very close eye on him. I slept on the couch last night and made sure he kept his door open so I'd know if anything odd happened. We see his doctor Thursday but I'm ready to take him to the E.R. b4 then if necessary. We can't get the oxygen setup we've got to work adequately so next week I should be able to buy a good mask. I did try taping up the open hole in the mask, cutting off the totally inadequate "rebreather" bag supplied and taping on a kitchen trash bag. Can't get a good seal on the mask. Can't keep the trash bag open. We'll make adjustments and additions/subtractions till we get it right. We're going to try another big dose of seeds tonight or tomorrow. Michael has a pretty weak stomach and threw up some of the last big dose. Anyone know how to "dress up" the taste so it's not quite so nauseating? Don't worry much about us. We're both hanging in. Maybe crossing fingers wouldn't hurt. It's impolite and unappreciative of me to have been so unresponsive to all you very kind people. I apologize and promise to keep up.

*crosses fingers* He _HAS TO_ get pain free period, he just _HAS TO_ no other option!!! Nope and nadda!

Quote:

Anyone know how to "dress up" the taste so it's not quite so nauseating?

A teaspoon or so of lemon juice.

Prayin for you both....I don't know how you keep your own head straight with all this going on.
    Hang in there!     lorac

Ps ... I have been taking the Kudzu root, and I think it has helped a lot to reduce the no of attacks, and also the severity.         :)

Hey Ron,

I wasn't able to keep my big 'ol O2 reservoir trash bag open at first either.

I eventually realized I could attach some extra extension tubing for my mask so that it would protrude down deeper into the more wide open area of the bag. this prevented the folds of the bag from getting sucked in and cutting off the O2 on an inhale.

That's very hard for me to describe. :D Sorry if it's just a stinking load of mumbo jumbo.  ;D

Brew. Lemon juice. Hmm. . . . We'll give it a try. Thanks.

lorac. Thanks for your much welcome support and backatcha. Keep us abreast of any and all Kudzu root developments.

beejeeber. Not mumbo jumbo at all. I'll try it and let you know. Thanks.

MattyAA. I'm sooo sorry! How is it possible that I forgot you? Anyway, getting to "talk" to someone like you, halfway around the world in Poland reminds me of the wonder of computers and this amazing internet. Thank you very much for your continued support of my son and I. The language you use makes it very clear to all of us that you possess an enormous heart. What a gift!