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        New Message Board Archives >> Jul-Sep 2003 >> Probably silly question
        
(Message started by: Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 8:36am)

Title: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 8:36am

Dear All

Help needed her with my confused brain please.

I am probably going to go on a Radio show here to represent Ch sufferers and want to be very sure of myself if I get asked things (I will bail out on the really technical stuff and neurological procedure stuff of course), and I have asked this question of a few Ch sufferers and am still not getting a clear answer, here goes:

When an attack is happening, what happens to the blood vessels in the brain?

and therefore

How come two of the main treatments seem to contradict each other (i.e. unless I've got it wrong a Triptan is a vasoconstrictor and Oxygen a vasodilator)

Thanks you clever people out there.

W the B

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by badfly on Aug 19^th, 2003, 8:51am

Yeah I never got that either. Just assumed I was an idiot or everyone else was. So am I, or are they ?

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Patrick_A on Aug 19^th, 2003, 8:52am

Your take on Triptan is correct, The reason why oxygen works as i understand it is this....Your brain requires a certain amount of oxygen to perform its duties. When its not getting enough, it sends a signal to the heart to give it more, so in turn, the blood vessels open up and oxygen gets to the brain. When the brain now has enough oxygen, It does the opposite. It sends the signal to slow down, and the blood vessels close down. That is why It works to relieve the CH.
During CH, the vessel swells against the Trigem?? nerve, so therefore it gives ya pain. The oxyegen reduces the swelling, giving you relief.

Patrick

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Kirk on Aug 19^th, 2003, 8:53am

Right off the top of my pointy head. I thought O2 was a vasoconstrictor.

TTFN

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by BobG on Aug 19^th, 2003, 8:58am

From under the medical info button on the left: Oxygen
Sakai and Meyer (1979) have shown that marked cerebral vasoconstriction results from the administration of 100 percent oxygen during cluster headache attacks.

From webMD site:
What is sumatriptan?
Sumatriptan is a headache medicine. It is believed to work by causing vasoconstriction (narrowing) of arteries and veins that supply blood to the head.

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 9:23am

Thanks guys,, to summarise for poor brain again:

During Ch attack (no-one knows yet why) the blood vessels in the brain expand causing enormous pain, they also put pressure on the trigeminal nerve (and maybe other nerves as well in some sufferers) which in turn causes severe pain and some of the automonic responses too.

We therefore take Triptans to constrict the blood vessels, or alternatively take extra high flow oxygen to stop the body trying to pump more oxygen around our systems and to our brains (as this also causes the blood vessels to expand)

Have I got it now??

W the B

Title: ?????
Post by rumplestiltskin on Aug 19^th, 2003, 9:49am

By their own admission...the manuf of triptans are vague on knowing just why they work. They have educated guesses....

Which is what you'll have to make "on air" if ya get stuck.

Break a leg
den

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by catlind on Aug 19^th, 2003, 10:12am

The oxygen works when used at 100% because the brain closes down the vessels to stop more O2 flow. It can only have a certain level of O2, so when you breathe in 100% O2, it knows that it will get too much so it constricts the vessels to slow the blood flow and the oxygen saturation to the brain so the O2 will redirect to other parts of the body.

It's the closing off the vessels that works.
That's my understanding of it.

Cat

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Patrick_A on Aug 19^th, 2003, 11:34am

Yea, what she said! LOL!

Patrick

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by don on Aug 19^th, 2003, 11:38am

So the simple answer is......................

A CH attack will dialate the blood vessels in your noggin.

The triptans and oxygen reverse that affect by constricting the vessels.

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by toothpick on Aug 19^th, 2003, 12:13pm

Iam glad someone asked that question it clears up a few things for me. But can someone tell me why wet very hot clothes help some of us. I understand heat opens the blood vessels. If I try ice it makes the pain way worse.

Russ aka Toothpick

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Cooked Brain on Aug 19^th, 2003, 12:15pm

on 08/19/03 at 09:23:22, Hooter wrote:

During Ch attack (no-one knows yet why) the blood vessels in the brain expand causing enormous pain, they also put pressure on the trigeminal nerve (and maybe other nerves as well in some sufferers) which in turn causes severe pain and some of the automonic responses too.

I recenly read that medical studies in Holland and Belgium are suspecting some brain hormones have part in the expansion of the vessels in and around the brain. Besides affecting surrounding nerves the pain was said to be caused by the wall of vessels itself, that would explain the pounding with each wave. The main suspect hormones would be serotonin, melatonin and testosteron. Hope to read more about that soon.

Good luck Hooter, you Tell them! ;)

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by firebrix on Aug 19^th, 2003, 5:09pm

Good on ya Hooter!
All the best. Remember to take three deep breaths before you start so you don't get nervous. It works!
Its a cool thing you're doing.
please let us know how it goes.
firebrix

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 5:33pm

Cheers Folks!

I used to be a Police Officer so have done commentaries on car chases at 100 miles an hour and was in the control room doing comms in a riot so I have a few techniques up my sleeve for controlling my voice when I'm scared. I'll save those for another post because they are a bit odd!

I would let you know if I go on air but don't think any of you have radio sets powerful enough to get medium wave in the UK!

Wendy

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by eyes_afire on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:22pm

I'm gonna try to offer my perspective based upon things I've learned about CH. Wendy, it may be best to keep it simple and avoid speculation. I may be way off-base here, but anyway:

1. CH is a modern medical mystery.

2. It has been observed that blood vessels dialate during a CH attack, but it is not known whether it is cause or effect.

3. It has been observed that after taking sumatriptan the blood vessels constrict, but it is not know whether this is the beneficial action upon CH (maybe it's the 5HT receptors instead).

4. High blood oxygen levels promote the production of serotonin and cause vasoconstriction. It is not known for certain which (if any) of these actions helps CH.

The problem with discussing blood vessel dialation is that we don't know whether this is cause or effect.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

JMHO

--- Steve

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:34pm

Steve- too right. I have every intention of steering as well away from anything technical at all as I can. My main intent will be too publicise the condition and what it means to be a sufferer, and what sufferers can do to get help, and most importantly get our website and Help Line number onto the airwaves for anyone listening who needs that help.

Prof Goadsby/Queen's Square are being approached to provide a representative as well so with a bit of luck I can stay completely out of anything medical at all, but the question I asked is just one that has been bugging me for ages and I wanted to try and get clear about it myslef if it were possible (which obviously it isn't)

Wendy

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Cooked Brain on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:43pm

Quote:

The problem with discussing blood vessel dialation is that we don't know whether this is cause or effect.

Steve,

can't it be both?

What I have been told and have read the cause of the pain is the expantion of vessels providing blood to the brain.

PFDAN

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by eyes_afire on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:43pm

Cool Wendy 8). You rock.
Knock em dead, kid.

We need publicity.

--- Steve

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by jonny on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:45pm

Wendy,

Ive talked to you enough to know you will do just fine, you are really good with words and your question is far from silly. loads of us here would like to know the same.

You will do great my friend.

....................................jonny

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:47pm

Fanks Darlin'

(this is said with cockney accent to try and undo this image you have been given that I am posh)

;D

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by jonny on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:49pm

LMMFAO ;D ;D ;D

......................................jonny

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by eyes_afire on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:50pm

I don't know Lori. I kinda remember reading articles (maybe from the OUCH library) casting some doubt as to blood vessel dialation being the cause of pain... Something about researchers noting that the pain actually preceded the dialation of blood vessels. And then I thought there was also something about a person who had the trigeminal nerve severed and still got CH. I'm not sure, I'd have to check the library, but I don't have time right now.
In any event, I'm not ready to assume that blood vessel dialation is truly the cause of the pain.

--- Steve

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:53pm

So guys, what we're really saying after all this is that there is only one thing we are 100% sure of.......

It fucking well hurts!

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by jonny on Aug 19^th, 2003, 6:55pm

on 08/19/03 at 18:53:10, Hooter wrote:

So guys, what we're really saying after all this is that there is only one thing we are 100% sure of.......

It fucking well hurts!

I couldnt have said it better myself....Hmmmm, well maybe I could have.....LMAO ;D

...................................jonny

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by Hooter on Aug 19^th, 2003, 7:01pm

Being serious here for about 30 seconds.
Am I right in saying that the only things we know for sure aside from the incredible pain levels are:

1 It has no cure
2 It isn't terminal
3 We all have enlarged hypothalamuses
4 More men than women get it

This is pretty damn pathetic as a sum of knowledge.

Title: Re: Probably silly question
Post by toothpick on Aug 19^th, 2003, 9:36pm

GOOD LUCK! TO ONE OF THE NICEST PEOPLE I HAVE MET IN CYBERSPACE.

TOOTHPICK