Clusterheadaches.com Message Board


    
      
        Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        New Message Board Archives >> Jul-Sep 2003 >> For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
        
(Message started by: pablo on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:25pm)

Title: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:25pm

I'm not sure why I'm posting this but what the heck, mebbe someone else sees the correlation for them ... I just did a an interval workout and I felt The Beast awaken about 55 minutes after I started my workout - I only ran for 44 minutes.

This one was a doozy, it had me twitching and until a 1/2 shot of Imitrex, there was no relief.

I run just about everyday (unless I go for a swim) and it really does seem that running triggers it. I've also noticed a single 12oz of beer does the same.

For now, I'm going to take a break from running (swim instead!) and forgo drinking beer. I had tried stopping before but it didn't seem to make a difference but I think I didn't correlate the running bit.

Oh and Wendy, sex/masterbation don't trigger CHs! <g>

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Live4Fun on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:29pm

Pablo - there has been some discussion of exercise/increase in heart rate being a trigger. I do have one question for you... do you run/excercise at the same time everyday? If so, it may just be that that time of day is when you get hit. And if so, try running at a different time of the day and see if you get the same result.

My 1.5 cents... ;D

PFDANs

Bryan

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:34pm

As a test (being that I'm somewhat scientifically inclined - read as: Mr Nerd! :), I ran at a different time today and sure enough, it wasn't the time of the day but the activity.

This morning, which is when I typically get them, I felt a little pressure behind left eye and I did The Water treatment and that snuffed The Beast.

Thx for the suggestion though Bryan!

ps: Let me know if you have any more experiments for me to try. I'm considering the Ice Pick treatment! heh heh!

Take care!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by NotH20 on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:43pm

That has only happened to me one time - taking a step exercise class - now I just sit on the couch and eat bon-bons and feel much better ;) Actually it was one of the worst ch's I've ever had....you may be on to something Pablo......

Mia

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:46pm

<homer sound=drool option>
mmmmmmmmm, bon bons
</home sound>

Hi Mia!

I have to workout. So I'm thinking perhaps something like swimming. Where did I leave my hot pink thong bikini????!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Live4Fun on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:49pm

My only other suggestion is to NEVER make me visualize you in a hot pink bikini :o ;D ;D

Hope you get PF soon!

Bryan

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 1:52pm

Dang Bryan that was very funny! I laughed out loud; I think my cat thinks I'm nuts!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by ave on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 4:37pm

Pablo, the cluster is a wiley beast!

There are clusterheads who get relief or can even prevent clusters by excercising vigourously.

Some swear by cold at `the' spot, others need it hot.

Go figure...

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 6:44pm

Ave, good point and well said!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Charlie on Jul 3^rd, 2003, 10:09pm

There is some evidence that vigorous AFTER the attack begins, exercise can sometimes shorten the attack. I think it's pretty much the same as the circulatory technique I post:

Dr. Wright's Circulatory Technique

This is not transcendental meditation, imagery, relaxation, or anything psychic. It's entirely physical and takes a lot of work and concentration. Give this method a good workout. It’s not a miracle, but it’s been helpful to many.

When I was diagnosed, my neurologist said to treat this as a vascular problem. I was told to concentrate on “redirecting” blood circulation in order to retard flow to the head. This is done by trying to “send” blood into the arms and hands or other extremities. When properly done, your hands will become warm and redder with increased circulation. I also found it easier to concentrate on one hand.

This relieves just slightly, the pressure on the affected vessel, which indirectly causes our pain. We all have this ability but it can be exhausting. I was often able shorten my attacks from about half an hour to no more than a few minutes. Sometimes, when awake, I could entirely abort the attack IF I KEPT AT IT. Often, I would suffer only minor discomfort instead of excruciating pain. Do not stop just because your hands are warm or redder. Keep this up until you are sure it's subsided. If you let up or lose concentration, it’s very hard to restart this process. It may take some time but when this works, the relief is almost immediate.

I learned this from the doctor in a few minutes. He simply told me to try to keep blood away from the head. He thought it easiest to concentrate on the arms and hands but any place that works for you is fine. He said to think of it as "filling your hands" with redirected blood. It’s important to keep at it THROUGH the pain. This will be difficult, but it’s the only way this technique will work. Don’t let up until you are sure the attack has ended.

This will not always work, but I think it will always have at least some effect on the severity and duration of the attacks. It can be useful between medications or while waiting for some other drug to take effect. All it takes is a little practice. It was fairly easy to learn and what I'm writing here is more than I got from the doctor, as I've drawn from my own experience.

When awakened in horrible pain, it’s very hard to focus, but I think it’s always worth a try. This costs nothing but hard work, is harmless, non-invasive, and it gives us a fighting chance.

I wish you the best of luck - Charlie Strand

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by iJun G4 on Jul 4^th, 2003, 2:58am

I used to try to abort with exercise.

The success rate was so-so, but at least it was free.

This cycle, I had a bad experience where the exercise made the attack noticeably WORSE. It could be the fact that I'm on more Verapamil than ever.

My theory is that exercise has multiple but possibly opposing effects. It could be as simple as:
more oxygen--good
endorphin release--good
higher blood pressure--bad
higher body temp--bad

If this is true, it's just a matter of which effects end up outweighing the others.

I don't pretend to know about the bio mechanism that much so someone help me out if I'm wrong here...

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by kellya408 on Jul 4^th, 2003, 11:53am

I've noticed the same about exercise - I haven't gone on my walk/jog since the cycle started 2 months ago (now i'm a member of the bon-bons/couch/good movie club ;D ). The last time I tried to take a walk on a good day I had to call my grandmother from my cell to watch for me in case I couldn't make it home. I wonder if its the increase in body temp (for me) because heat tends to really make mine worse.
I'm debating about trying to walk on the treadmill when the sun goes down and it cools off. Thank goodness for ice and ice water!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Danielle on Jul 4^th, 2003, 12:51pm

I wanted to jump in here with my 2 cents worth....increased heart rate is definately a trigger for me. And even though I can slow down (which I have) on the excersizing I still deal with one of the biggest offenders which is orgasm. It is so fucked (no pun intended) cause there is no way I am letting CH take that out of my life too.....anyone else have this problem?

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 4^th, 2003, 8:18pm

There seems to be a common theme about water/ice/cooling down ... has anyone tried taking a cool/cold shower? That might be next on my list! <g>

I tried drinking 'fridge cold water after my run today to no avail: I had to shoot-up.

Danielle, I'm sorry to hear that orgasm makes you trigger a CH. I think if it affected me that way I'd be Mr Limpy 'cuz of the bad association! Glad to hear you continue to not let The Beast rule your life.

The weekends are usually 'long runs' for me so tomorrow, I'm thinking of doing a long swim in a lake to keep my temperature down; I have no idea if that's the issue.

Also, I didn't drink my beer last night nor tonight, and I didn't get a CH tonight. May not be related but what the heck, I'll keep off the beer until I break the cycle.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by ZAIRA on Jul 5^th, 2003, 10:10am

Hello Pablito ;D, this is a good post!

When I’m in cluster and I feel I’m having an attack, sometimes I make sport and I’ve noticed that the attack doesn’t start. It seems that, running, the beast is tired :-[... this is my experience.

Counting that I’ve attacks day and night I should run all the time... ;D ;D

And caution :o, my neurologist advices me not to drink alchool during an cluster, it can provoke attacks.

Good luck,

Zaira ;)

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 5^th, 2003, 10:35am

Zaire, thank you for your words of wisdom! Running seems to wake the beast up for me; no pattern amoung us CH's.

I was awakened this AM by the beast and I didn't hit the injection until four hours later. It was a strange one in that it was a low-level CH. I tried havnig sex with my wife and that made it go away for a bit, but then it came back.

I tried a cold shower and that didn't do it either.

I'm going to swim after all today ... I have a worn-out feeling ... like after suffering a bout with the flu.

Next time I'm feeling pumped, I'll try a run and drink a sport's drink afterwards to see if it's an electrolyte issue.

Thx folks!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by NotH20 on Jul 7^th, 2003, 3:17pm

Pablo - you're really making me think on this one here ??? I was a member of my junior high and high school swim teams and never had an attack either while swimming or in competition. I swam for years on two different swim teams (scholastic and competitive) and swam approximately SIX hours per day - 5 days per week.

Sorry to reply late, but the long weekend has had me a bit busy....how was the lake swim?

Keep me posted...Mia
PS - Alcohol and cigarettes were triggers for me all the time.....

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 7^th, 2003, 3:40pm

Hi Mia!

No worries on the late reply ... I have another thread going here http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=meds;action=display;num=1057598700 -- Narrowing down the triggers which I believe addresses your questions.

The lake swim was _no_ issue for me; no CH. My theory is (FWIW!) that it's my body's temperature that causes the CH: when it goes up, the CH is triggered. Physical activity causes this.

When you swim, your body is immersed in a huge heat sink: the water. The water is constantly removing the heat your body generates.

I swam again today with no CH. I tried to push it and was breathing pretty hard. I only swam for 33 minutes though because I start to get chilly in the lake. I might opt for 40 minutes tomorrow -- see if I can bear it.

ps: lucky I don't smoke! :) .. thx!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by stuey on Jul 7^th, 2003, 3:47pm

I don't yet know whether exercise does or doesn't help me since I haven't been able to run (2 knee operations in 2 years) vigorously for awhile. I wondered if orgasm, although i guess sex is considered excerise but not as strenuous as running or tennis (or maybe I'm doing something wrong) would stop the attacks but they don't seem to stop the attacks at all. My 2 cent. Stuey :)

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by BobG on Jul 7^th, 2003, 4:47pm

stuey
for the sex to work you have to work up to a certain level.

Tell her

1st week.....twice a day, every day. ;)
2nd week....4 times a day, every day. :D
3rd week.....6 times a day, every day. ;D
4 week........check into the heart attack clinic. :'(

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by smfaison on Jul 7^th, 2003, 6:31pm

Exercise is definitely a trigger for me when I'm in a spell. I used to run a lot, and I would get a CH within minutes of stopping. On Saturday I mowed the yard and it was very hot. As soon as I stopped, a 4 hour CH started that was horrible. I also know after the first CH in the cycle that I can't drink any alcohol. That will bring one on in minutes too.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 7^th, 2003, 7:34pm

Your situation seems to parallel mine too.

For now, until I have had three days of no CH's, no running or activities that increase my body temperature. This doesn't mean I can't do physical activities but I'll just make sure to try and take cool showers to bring my temp back down.

I'm hoping to make it through the night tonight without a CH...

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by oringkid on Jul 7^th, 2003, 9:01pm

I have been researching and thinking and trying to corrolate things here and this is what I have come up with...

Oxygen

When you run your body must speed up to compensate for the energy used. Your heart speeds up. Your temperature goes up..... AND your oxygen needs go up!!

When others for whom exercise helps exercise, I will bet that they are breathing purposefully and steadily and deeply. Almost hyperventilating... extra O2.

When you get hit at higher altitudes...less oxygen pressure = lower rate of oxygen intake and if it is a fast ascent your body has trouble compensating.

O2 works well to abort attacks

I was reading some highly complicated medical stuff on the hypothalamus and other related stuff and it mentioned oxygen and lack thereof (I know, I'm a doofus cuz I didn't bookmark it...) But look into the oxygen corrolation.... I think it is VERY relevant. The more I learn, the more I am thinking that oxygen, or more specifically an inability to properly .... what? assimilate? oxygen, causing a slight lack? may be an important piece of our puzzle.

Pablo, since you like experimentation... do this... next time you run... jog...slowly and breath in deeply and slowly and exhale fairly quickly (don't go too far cuz this might cause you to become dizzy or something... not sure) but do an " in...in...in... out....., in...in...in... out....." type of rythym and see if you still get hit. The idea is to saturate your lungs with more oxygen than your physical activity needs. Let me know how it goes.

And by the way... I don't think we have met! Welcome!

Sherry

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 7:33am

Hi Sherry,

I'm not sure if it's correlated to the lack of oxygen. I used to live at altitude (8,300') and I'd run/train at even higher elevations (start at 9,000', run up to 11,500') and that never seemed to trigger the events.

When I start to run, I rarely go anaerobic unless I'm doing intervals; which I was doing once a week during the spring/summer.

When I swim, I breath pretty hard because I'm trying to get a workout and so far no CH associated to a swim workout. Today when I swim, I'll try to hit my anaerobic threshold for 10 minutes and see if I get a CH. If the lake keeps me cool, I suspect I won't.

Having said all the above, all I can really say is that the above applies to _me_ and others may be affected by the lack of O2.

And thank you for the welcome! :) Take care!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by jannm on Jul 8^th, 2003, 8:37am

I've never posted before but this thread really interested me.

I can offer yet more anecdotal evidence on the Q of exercise.

I definitely have "walked" off a bad CH in cold weather: getting deep breaths of oxygen seemed to help, or at least temporarily, when I had no meds and before docs let me do more than 2x week of Imitrex injections.

I also have wondered if exercise could be a trigger--if not as powerful a trigger as alcohol. It seemed to have been a trigger once in a very short cycle I had in 1992, but wasn't sure, and that batch of headaches was preternaturally short (was it for real or a fluke?) (BTW: I get CH for 2-5 weeks every 2-4 years and they respond very well to Imitrex injections, not at all to the pills, and I'm trying Verapamil for the first time this cycle 3x day 120mg, so little because i have low heart rate and low BP, probably because I exercise regularly)
Last CH series in early 2002 I had one clearly exercise-induced cluster headache after doing aerobics. Really nasty episode. One of the worst headaches I remember in fact which I felt very happy to manage to abort with a shot about an hour after it started.

Well, more of that this time: This cycle started night of the 27th June with 2 awful CHs in 36 hrs both of which I weathered with no meds because I couldn't really believe I was in a cycle this soon (17 month gap instead of more than 2 years). Second headache (or 3rd really), I got meds and went on Verapamil. Had another HA which I aborted a couple days after that. Then Pain free from Thursday last until Monday evening when I did my first pretty fast-paced step aerobics class, w/ lots of water before and during. But the headache was full blown by the time I showered and left the gym. I wasn't even sure the Imitrex shot 45 minutes after stopping exercise would zap it. It did, then I slept 2 hours or so, completely wasted. Had shadows all evening and expected to have another one in the night but didn't, proving, I guess, that the Verap is working.

The idea of swimming is intriguing. I, too, really hate not being able to exercise. Even thought maybe I had shorter cycles and fewer headaches if I did exercise regularly but now I wonder if it's a question of the timing of the exercise in relation to headaches--e.g., that exercise brings on a HA that is trying to break through and might not have otherwise done so?

OR: is it possible that Verapamil makes it harder to exercise w/o headaches breaking through? One doctor suggested that with my low-ish BP and heart rate I might not want to exercise at all on Verapamil (I think he thought that I'd have chance of collapsing?). He suggested I wait to see how frequent the headaches in the last cycle before going on it, and in the end I didn't go on it at all.

Recent doctor, who didn't inspire my greatest faith, said nothing to counterindicate exercise. However, she also was convinced that CH is a male ailment. I don't think she'd have given me meds for it if earlier doctors hadn't already put that diagnosis in my files.

Anyhow: any other views on this exercise question would be most interesting to have, especially whether swimming is the one thing we CAN do when in a cycle.

Is there any research on this at all, whether by the Goadsby team or others?

Thanks, J.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 9:15am

Hi Jann!

I suspect that for me and some others, what triggers the CH is not the exercise but the rise in body temperature.

This is something my wife thought: let's assume that the viable internal body temperature for a human body is 20 degrees F. If during exercise, you increase your internal temperature by 1 degree, that's a 5% increase in temperature. Pretty significant.

Additionally, I believe it's true to say that people's body temperature goes up and down throughout the day. Assuming that everyone has a body temperature threshold whereby tripping this value will cause a CH, then it's possible that one activity one day, at a particular time, may not necessarily trigger a CH when that very same activity on another day may trigger the CH.

With exercise, we routinely increase our body temperature except with swimming. Using a heartrate monitor, people I know have not been able to get their heartrate to the same level for the intensity, as when they're running or biking. The cooling effect of the water (it is a huge heat sink afterall! <g>) as well as the horizontal position reduces the maximum heart rate required to sustain the activity.

As for your question regarding Verapamil, perhaps. <g> Given that I'm a data point of _one_, I'm not on Verapamil.

I had tried shifting my run from early morning to mid-noon and the CH came on about 55 minutes after the _start_ of each run. Again, this is for me and you might try to shift your workout to see if the pain follows the workout or not; or you might not want to tickle a CH! Gosh who would be stupid enough like me???! <g>

As for the doctor who was convinced that it's a male affliction, well, it affects _mostly_ males but obviously it affects woman as well. Personally, I'd drop that doctor because if you're having to fight _that_ prejudice, then what other battles will need to be fought?

Also, on another thread I mentioned that sex was also a cause. I think that's not necessarily true. I'm kinda waffling on that one. I think 'vigorous' sex may be but something less so may not. Anyway, I did a 'masterbation-test' (heh heh heh! all in the name of research!!!!!!!!!) this morning so we'll see in a couple of hours if I get a CH. I think I won't. I do know I did after 'vigorous' sex -- phew, kinda personal eh? heh heh! Oh well..

I think I'll hold off on the swim AT test until tomorrow because I don't want to change more than one variable in my tests; otherwise I won't know which parameter affected me.

Right now I haven't had a CH in over 29 hours. Woohoo!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 11:56am

No CH after the M-test; by now I would have expected one. I haven't made it out to my swim yet, imagine work getting in the way!, but I plan on heading out at 2pm ET. I won't do the AT test though, I'll do that tomorrow.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by oringkid on Jul 8^th, 2003, 12:40pm

Well, you may be onto something with the temperature...the hypothalamus is supposed to monitor body temp... And a lot of people get hit about an hour or so after going to sleep and the body's temp rises (I think) at that point.

I don't know... could be rapid internal body temp changes? But I would think we would notice that.

hmm.....

Sherry

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 2:55pm

Hi Sherry,

Not trying to pick nits, I think people's body temperature lowers when they sleep.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Danielle on Jul 8^th, 2003, 5:20pm

This is very interesting, the whole question of CH and excersize.

As I wrote in another post about "Ch and blood pressure", I'm kinda concerned about having a stroke or something. Everytime my heart rate goes up I am in danger of getting a cluster.

I've had a pretty bad year CH-wise and unable to hardly do anything. My head still gives me grief of course but I am trying to 'pick up my socks' and not let CH totally take over my life.

So....that being said, I am sllllooooowwwwlllllyyyyy trying to build my physical stamina up a bit. I admire you guys that are healthy....I mean, I still look good ;D but I feel like shit . Ok so, starting to take a bit of a holistic approach to counteract all the goddamn medication and maybe take the ache out of my muscles. Also, some light stretching at the gym, I work right beside it so I don't have to kill myself trying to get there. Here's where I need your help....any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by eyes_afire on Jul 8^th, 2003, 5:50pm

Pablo, I think you're right. I always thought body temperature lowers when sleeping.

Hey Bob P, mind if I fill in for you for today's public service announcement?

From the OUCH Library, According to Goadsby:

Alcohol, nitroglycerine, exercise and elevated environmental temperature are recognised precipitants of acute cluster attacks.

I suspect that for me, aerobic exercise makes CH situation worse, but I'm not certain. When I use to bike, I would get CH exactly 2 hours afterward. On the 4th of July I was shoveling rocks in the hot sun... 2 hours later I was on oxygen trying to eliminate shadows that were very close to full blown CH (would have been my first one in awhile since I'm on verapamil). I still do my upper body weight lifting to help keep my arms and shoulders tough enuff to play my heavy guitars... no problems with that. It's just aerobic stuff that I'm suspicious of.

--- Steve, one of many...

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by catlind on Jul 8^th, 2003, 6:28pm

Well that certainly would explain why during my last cycle the 2 times I attempted my treadmill left me in agony. I considered turning the O2 on and using it while I was exercising to battle the after exercise demon, but decided I could get used to being fat LOL

Cat

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 7:24pm

Hi Danielle,

Can you swim? Even if you cannot, you can use a kickboard to exercise your legs/butt - not saying you need it but big muslces live in those areas. (phew! Did I make it unscathed? <g>)

You can also try aqua-jogging; you'll need an aqua belt. If your local pool doesn't have them, here's a spot I found using google (www.google.com) so I can't say if this is a good price or not - if you're not familiar with the belt, you can also take a look:

http://www.thera-band.com/aqua_belt.html

The basic idea is to try to do exercise where you won't get hot. Now I don't really know if it is your internal body temperature that triggers the CH or the activity increasing your BP - the latter thought occurred to me at dinner.

Anyway, get out there and exercise!!! It feels great and it'll make you look _better_ :)

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by catlind on Jul 8^th, 2003, 7:46pm

Awww dammit. Was hoping I could get away with staying fat LOL. You have to go and suggest swimming as an exercise...I can't very get out of that one as I used to be a life guard ::) Guess I'll have to suffer and go back to exercising LOL

Cat

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 7:57pm

Hi Cat!

I didn't respond directly to you on the last one 'cuz I figured it applied to you too! <g> So yah, get off yur hiney and get in the pool! The first few weeks are gonna suck but once it's a habit, you'll crave it.

Tomorrow is my swim AT test. I also plan on upping my exercise duration. Part of the problem with that is that I'm in a lake which after a while, gets chilly (no shrinkage remarks plz! <g>)

I think if I push it, I should stay warm and will have no trouble doing 40 minutes. Eventually I'd like to hit 45 minutes.

I'll post back my results.

Did I mention I had a slight shadow this AM? Water took care of it.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Marc on Jul 8^th, 2003, 8:04pm

Throwing in my 2 cents:

I'm just shy of 50 years old, way overweight, not in good shape and don't work out regularly at all. I've been chronic for almost 6 years and I've posted here many times that:

- Riding my bicycle (hard) will kill an attack ALMOST all of time IF I catch it early. I live in area that never gets hot, so I almost always have cool/cold air to ride in - day and night. I'm obviously not sure, but I suspect that it may be related to Charlie's "warming" technique, i.e. redirecting blood flow away from the brain.. Once the pain ramps up, there is NO WAY I could ride or run. BUT, I also tend to get "hit" after eating......that's when blood flow should be re-direecting to my stomach, so....

- When I get hit with an attack, I instinctively crave cold. I live at the beach where the water is 53-58 degrees year round, and I've aborted many, many attacks by going into the cold surf. If I’m in a car, I crank up the A/C, rev up the engine and suck in the cold air.

- Three years ago I discovered that O2 works WAY better for me if it's chilled. I even built a chilling rig after talking with Bob Kipple on how to do it (Thank you again Kip!)

- During attack, my blood pressure spikes dangerously high and I radiate heat – you can actually feel it sitting next to me. Normally, my BP is really good.

Marc

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 8^th, 2003, 8:11pm

Hey Marc!

I have a question for you since everything you that write correlates with my simple theory of body heat being the trigger (or possibly higher BP) except in your case, riding a bike stops the attack.

You mention that you're way overweight so I'm wondering when you ride your bike, are you riding hard enough for your heart to pound or are you riding at a very low rate. A rate that doesn't increase your body temperature but nonetheless, the cool air actually cools you down?

If it's the latter, then it dovetails with what I'm thinking that it seems it's either an increased level in body temperature and/or blood pressure that triggers the CH.

Of course I'm a simpleton so I could be completely wrong about what is the actual reason (BP and/or internal body temp) but I do know that _hard_ exercise triggers it for me.

Thx for your input!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by Marc on Jul 8^th, 2003, 9:58pm

Hi Pablo,

I used to put in 40-50 miles most weekends. Now I ride 5-10 miles only once or twice a month for fun - at a slow pace. That's why I'm 6'1" 240 lbs now ;D.

I ride very hard only to abort CH's, taking my pulse up to max within minutes. In other words, I ride "balls out" to kill the CH. Anything less and it doesn't work for me.

I've never tried it in in hot air, but I'm betting that it wouldn't work. Again, if I'm visiting a warm area, I wouldn't even try it - I literally crave cold.

Marc

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 9^th, 2003, 7:26am

Marc,

Okay, good info. I've been to Morrow Bay and I've dived in Monterey Bay - brrrrrrrrrr!

I did an AT workout this morning where I pushed it pretty hard for about a total of five minutes in a 31 minute workout. I'll know if all is well within the next hour or two.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by catlind on Jul 9^th, 2003, 10:49am

Pablo, I know that I need to exercise, I'm just lazy. Actually whenever I swim I tend to end up sweating. Remember that I trained for several years under the royal life saving society of Canada to earn my Bronze for lifeguarding and to become a certified instructor. Our typical training was to swim 56 laps in 12 min.

I have a tendency to push myself hard when I'm doing laps so I don't know if it would be that much benefit unless I slow it down and keep the pace to an easy and relaxed swim.

When I was swimming regularly about 3 years ago, I would typically do 10 laps of front crawl, 10 of backstroke and 10 each of side stroke left and right, alternating the stroke with each lap to prevent fatigue.

I'm sure that if I got back into it I would hate missing a trip to the pool, I'm just lazy and don't have anyone to watch my 3 year old while I go work out.

Is that enough excuses or do I need to come up with more? ;) ;D

Cat

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 9^th, 2003, 10:55am

Quote:

Actually whenever I swim I tend to end up sweating.

Everyone does! <g> The point being that the water keeps you cool and it minimizes the effect of the workout on your body temperature/BP.

As for the excuses, well, I don't want to play the Mother Hen role... so I'm not! LOL.

Good luck Cat!

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by CJohnson on Jul 9^th, 2003, 2:56pm

Any theories as to why exercise provokes an attack for some and aborts attacks for others?

PFDANs
-Curtis

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 9^th, 2003, 3:38pm

I would hazzard a guess that it has to do with timing? In my particular case, I go from having no CH to having one due to exercise. What other's have posted seems to be that they're using exercise to "kill" the CH.

I think a test might be if I were getting a CH that was not triggered by exercise, do some exercise to see if it'd "kill" it.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by BobG on Jul 9^th, 2003, 4:05pm

Out here in my neck-of-the-cactus the weather gets warm. Right now it's 113 outside. I have never had an attack come on due to heat from weather or excerise raising my body temp.

Actually it's the opposite. A cold dry wind in the winter can trigger an attack for me.

Funny thing is though is that I crave a cold room or standing barefoot on the cement patio in the winter with an ice pack on my face to make the pain stop.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. ;D

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by eyes_afire on Jul 9^th, 2003, 6:01pm

I can only stab at a guess, Curtis. Those who abort using exercise do it as the CH is ramping up. There may very well be a serotonin influence. But it seems that those who get CH after exercise get it a bit later... maybe as the serotonin is waning. Then there may also be metabolism issues.

I have a feeling that someday we may find that CH is a disorder that is caused by defective neurochemistry/metabolism... but the defect may be SLIGHTLY different for certain clusterheads. For example (this is just an EXAMPLE), lets for now assume that the defect is in low serotonin. Maybe for some it is caused by low serotonin production. But for others it may be caused by low numbers of serotonin receptors. For others it may be caused by too many serotonin receptors (therefore not enough serotonin). And for others it may be caused by a sudden rapid evacuation of serotonin from those receptors. And for others, it may be caused by serotonin's interaction with another chemical. The possibilities are endless, but the effect (cluster headaches) may be the same.

Right now, I'd gamble that serotonin is not the only piece to the puzzle. I wonder alot about acetylcholine. But that's complicated shit.

--- Steve, Destroyer of Earwigs...

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by BobG on Jul 10^th, 2003, 12:07pm

Steve, I think you could be correct with the seratonin theory.
Also, someone (I think it was Margi) brought up a theory about it being possibly adrenaline output during excerise. I think she may be on to something with that theory.

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by pablo on Jul 10^th, 2003, 12:12pm

The only kink in the theory is that two weeks ago, on a long run (two hour run) my CH started about 50 minutes into the run and persisted throughout the rest of the run.

Of course, I won't even begin to purport to know much about the origins of CH's ... they just hurt a lot! <g>

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by catlind on Jul 10^th, 2003, 12:29pm

Hmmm that whole adrenaline thing might actually be onto something. When one is stressed your adrenaline surges, so that would explain why stress or the resulting downer after stress can be a trigger for a some. Interesting, may have to delve into the biology once again and find out more about the mechanics of adrenaline.

Cat

Title: Re: For me, CH's are correlated to exercise
Post by hdbngr on Jul 10^th, 2003, 3:51pm

Used to work out at least three times a week, was in great shape, but then CH hit. Wonder why it hit when I was in the best shape of my life? My gym membership suffered.

I got into one of my Doc's suggestions and took a step/punch bag class about a year into it. Tried to abort headaches with the endorphin approach. Rode a stationary bike, no matter how bad I felt, at least half an hour each day.

Now, I opt for gardening, something I can do a few minutes, break, then start again or I do nothing. I miss the exercise, but hate raising the pain level because of it.

I think it's due to your body temperature. I RADIATE heat when I sleep. Maybe most people get cooler, but I get warmer at night, which is when the worst attacks occur. I will also escalate to a full-blown attack when I get into an overheated car in the summer. Go figure.