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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2005 >> Stadol injections
        
(Message started by: unsolved1 on Jul 8^th, 2005, 7:48pm)

Title: Stadol injections
Post by unsolved1 on Jul 8^th, 2005, 7:48pm

Just wondering what you think ... Will Stadol injections cause rebounds ?

Unsolved

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by Topical on Jul 8^th, 2005, 8:54pm

Unsolved, try a google search using these keywords.

stadol rebound
Or
stadol injection rebound

It looks like the answer is yes. but I am only basing this off of the search results. I've never tried it.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by E-Double on Jul 9^th, 2005, 7:51am

I'd say yes since stadol falls under the category of Analgesic medicines

http://www.druginfonet.com/index.php?pageID=faq/new/DRUG_FAQ/Stadol.htm

Analgesic medicines:
http://www.free-definition.com/Analgesic.html

Rebounds Headache occurs:

http://www.headachenech.com/faq/default.asp#13
http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/headache/rebound.html
http://www.usdoctor.com/sym10.htm

Though people tend to say they get rebound from trex and O2 they are really not rebound since not analgeisc meds....We typically do not habituate to such treatment. We don't find that for an attack that 1 injection used to work then the HA got worse so we have to take 3 to make it better or 10 minutes on the tank used to do it but now need and hour prior to relief......
know what I mean ;)

Whatever works my friend!!!
You sure as hell deserve it!

E

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by hdbngr on Jul 11^th, 2005, 1:22pm

I think they will help in the short run. Trouble is you might build a tolerance to it where it requires increased amounts to achieve the same result.

I found that after three doses, it quit working at all. From a chronic standpoint, that isn't a whole lotta help if you get hit 6-8 times a day.

In the same vein of pain relief, what about the Duragesic patch or dilauded (sp?). I don't think the Duragesic causes rebounds, and since it is absorbed through the skin, constant dose, it helps with chronic hits.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by StressFree on Jul 11^th, 2005, 1:31pm

Stadol Nasal Spray worked well most of the time when I'd use it every other day or so. Had to take it at first sign of attack (goes without saying), and then be prepared to get used to the effects. Dizziness, sleepiness, weird dreams at night - Very strong stuff. I wouldn't try to drive a vehicle while on it. It's not a pleasant "high" either. That is why they say it isn't very addictive. Though if someone was determined, I imagine this stuff could make you dependent on it. I found that with most pain drugs, they became useless after a few days to a week of taking them. The worst cluster attacks seem to occur after finding a way around the pain meds. Best of luck - Rich

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by Karla on Jul 11^th, 2005, 7:10pm

I took stadol ns and it would kill my ch instantly but put me in lala land and to sleep. I don't recall having any rebound ha just that it required more and more to do the trick of killing the ha. good luck!

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by hdido on Jul 12^th, 2005, 12:57am

Dilaudid doesn't cause "rebounds" nor does the Duragesic Patch (or Actiq, the instant form or fentanyl, looks like a lollipop) in my experience.

I haven't found any evidence, scientifically proven, that "rebound" headaches, now called Medication Oversue Headaches (MOH) occur with CH sufferers no matter what the medication. If someone can post a link that shows scientifically controlled studies that prove me wrong, please do. MOH can occur in tension HAs, HAs caused by anxiety and possibly migrains. If MOH is a concern, please consult your neurologist or whichever doctor is treating you.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by hdido on Jul 12^th, 2005, 12:58am

Stadol spray has been shown to be effective in aborting attacks, but it can be dangerous, so I'd consult with an anesthesiologist who is a chronic pain specialist about using it.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by Karla on Jul 12^th, 2005, 4:53pm

Just for the record. I would agree with the prior poster that dilaudid and the duragesic patch don't cause rebound ha.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by hdido on Jul 15^th, 2005, 4:11am

I would like to add to Karla's post that neither Dilaudid tablets nor Actiq (fast acting fentanyl lollipops for real bad acute pain) cause rebounds either.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by unsolved1 on Jul 15^th, 2005, 10:45am

I tried the Actiq and all it did was make me itch !!

Unsolved

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by thomas on Jul 15^th, 2005, 11:33am

on 07/09/05 at 07:51:32, E-Double wrote:

Though people tend to say they get rebound from trex and O2 they are really not rebound

Then what are they E-dub? All I know is when I took trex I was getting hit twice as much in a day and my cylces lasted 3 times as long as they do now that I am not taking trex. Call it what you want, I get more headaches with trex than if I don't use it. I will never use that shit again.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by Jimmy_B on Jul 15^th, 2005, 3:28pm

on 07/15/05 at 10:45:46, unsolved1 wrote:

I tried the Actiq and all it did was make me itch !!

Unsolved

That means the dose was too high.

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by unsolved1 on Jul 15^th, 2005, 5:16pm

on 07/15/05 at 15:28:56, Jimmy_B wrote:

That means the dose was too high.

That was only a 600mg pop (that made me itch). They go up to 2000mg! I guess Actiq just wasn't right for me.

Unsolved

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by Jimmy_B on Jul 16^th, 2005, 11:59am

on 07/15/05 at 17:16:24, unsolved1 wrote:

That was only a 600mg pop (that made me itch). They go up to 2000mg! I guess Actiq just wasn't right for me.

Unsolved

Yeah...I think they go from 200 to 1600 mcg. With actiq as well as other opioids...you want to find a dose that relieves the pain without much side effects...some of the side effects you'll find with too high of a dose of opioids is sleepiness and (believe it or not), not able to sleep, itching, and trouble breathing.

If you didn't get sufficient pain relief off of the 600 mcg but still had the histamine release (itching)...your right...it's not going to work for you.

Hopefully you found something that works...

Stay (or try to stay) painfree.

Jimmy

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by Lizzie2 on Jul 16^th, 2005, 1:20pm

on 07/15/05 at 11:33:10, thomas wrote:

That's not rebound Thomas. With trex, there is a study showing that imitrex may lead to an increase in frequency of clusters.

Rebound (now referred to as Medication Overuse Headache) is marked by something different. I know I've posted this link about a billion times, but this really does explain it best!
http://headaches.about.com/cs/medicationsusage/a/rebound.htm

As the article in the link states, there really is not a consensus as to what medications can lead to MOH. It seems as though most physicians recognize that not every patient will rebound off of every med that has been shown to have the potential for rebound. (Does that make ANY sense? LOL) Also, not every chronic daily headache patient is in rebound or previously overused medications! ;)

I think they are working to redefine MOH, but for that, I'd have to reread through some of the stuff I brought home from AHS. It appears that any analgesic, triptan, ergot has the ability to cause MOH for some people. The issue lies in that it is a very individualized experience. I know that I, personally, do not feel that I would rebound off of Amerge, but that's an argument that I can't seem to win. :-/

John - some people do rebound off of dilaudid (I know several that have, actually) and the various forms of Fentanyl. Also Stadol. So no, they are not without risk. The reason why cluster sufferers are thought not to rebound is generally documented with respect to episodics. Say someone has a cycle of 6 weeks, and so they use abortive medications every day for that 6 weeks - when the cycle ends, then the med use ends too. These people aren't left with a chronic daily headache type, etc. Even though 6 weeks of an offending med would probably be enough to send most people into MOH, it appears that CH'ers may not respond in the same way with that kind of time frame.

Now - with chronic use? I don't know and I've never seen anything really written (that I can recall) on chronic CH'ers and MOH. I suppose if the daily shadows were to become constant and perhaps more and more bothersome, this may be a result of medication overuse.

Here's the abstract from the article relating to Imitrex and Cluster frequency...

Quote:

1: Headache. 2004 Jul-Aug;44(7):713-8. Related Articles, Links

Subcutaneous sumatriptan induces changes in frequency pattern in cluster headache patients.

Rossi P, Lorenzo GD, Formisano R, Buzzi MG.

Headache Centre, INI Grottaferrata, Rome, Italy.

OBJECTIVES: To document the relationship between the use of subcutaneous (SQ) sumatriptan (sum) and a change in frequency pattern of cluster headache (CH) in six patients. To discuss the clinical and pathophysiological implications of this observation in the context of available literature. BACKGROUND: Treatment with SQ sum may cause an increase in attack frequency of CH but data from literature are scant and controversial. METHODS: Six CH sum-naive patients (three episodic and three chronic according to the International Headache Society (IHS) criteria) are described. RESULTS: All six patients had very fast relief from pain and accompanying symptoms from the drug but they developed an increase in attack frequency soon after using SQ sum. In all patients, the CH returned to its usual frequency within a few days after SQ sum was withdrawn or replaced with other drugs. Five patients were not taking any prophylactic treatment and SQ sum was the only drug prescribed to treat their headache. CONCLUSIONS: Physicians should recognize the possibility that treatment of CH with SQ sum may be associated with an increased frequency of headache attacks.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 15209695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Carrie

Title: Re: Stadol injections
Post by hdido on Jul 17^th, 2005, 1:25am

Carrie wrote: "John - some people do rebound off of dilaudid (I know several that have, actually) and the various forms of Fentanyl. Also Stadol. So no, they are not without risk. The reason why cluster sufferers are thought not to rebound is generally documented with respect to episodics. Say someone has a cycle of 6 weeks, and so they use abortive medications every day for that 6 weeks - when the cycle ends, then the med use ends too. These people aren't left with a chronic daily headache type, etc. Even though 6 weeks of an offending med would probably be enough to send most people into MOH, it appears that CH'ers may not respond in the same way with that kind of time frame."

Carrie-as usual, your posts are excellent. I agree that Dilaudid, Fentanyl and Stadol do pose risks with some people, particularly fentanyl, which, as you know, should not be used unless a person has used other opiates over a long period. There may be cases of MOH amongst episodics, but I know of nothing that indicates that MOH is a problem with chronics (like me) as the pain is always there. By definition, and correct me if I am wrong, MOH occurs when too much analgesic is used and that delays the normal cessation of the pain, thus MOH occurs; however, if the analgesic is discontinued (probably unnecessary to write this, but I will anyhow) under a doctor's supervision, the MOH pain will continue for awhile and then disappear (particularly true with tension HAs and other secondary type HAs). The test peformed on me to determine if I suffered from, what at the time was known as "rebound" HA, was to discontinue all analgesics for 2 weeks, thus assuring that everything was out of my system. The pain did not disappear but remained and went to a higher level, thus MOH was ruled out. I think that when some CHers use a medication that initially reduces the pain and then the pain goes back up in intensity, "rebound" is thought of as the cause, particularly these days when it is a popular subject. My experience, having been both episodic for 14 years and chronic for 9 years is that the level of pain increases and decreases as it will. For me, the medictions that I take have been the only ones that reduce the pain (believe me when I tell you that the list of medications that I have in my medical records reads like the PDR!). I am, however, at a point where I am tired of pills and pain and thus will be getting the DBS operation performed in mid-September this year. I do hope that before someone discontinues a treatment that has worked for them becaue of fear of MOH that they consult with their neurologist and anesthesiologist, if they have one (which I think is a good idea; a better idea is to go to a pain clnic) before d/c'ing their meds...it sometimes appears that some people are claiming virtually every treatment is causing MOH, even oxygen. Thanks, as always, for your excellent input, Carrie.

P.S.: Great website!