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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2005 >> Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
        
(Message started by: Bob_Johnson on Jun 15th, 2005, 11:00am)
Title: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Bob_Johnson on Jun 15th, 2005, 11:00am
There have been a few reports posted here about the substantial % of CH folks who have sleep apnea and its association with CH.

Here, we have a report adding more evidence to the warnings that sleep apnea can both lead to heart disease and increase the risks in folks who have already been diagnosed with heart disease.

Although "positive airway pressure" therapy may be difficult to live with, this study indicates why continuing it with has some significiant benefits.
-------------


Sleep Apnea Therapy Improves Cardiovascular Outcomes


By Will Boggs, MD

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Jun 13 - Nasal continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) therapy lowers cardiovascular death rates in patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), according to a report in the June issue of Chest.

"We believe that these findings provide a strong basis for physicians to encourage compliance with CPAP in patients with OSA, particularly in severe cases, based on the strong likelihood that such patients, if untreated, are at substantially higher risk of cardiovascular complications," Dr. Walter T. McNicholas from St. Vincent's University Hospital, Dublin told Reuters Health.

Dr. McNicholas and colleagues compared the cardiovascular outcomes over more than 7 years of 107 patients with OSA who continued to receive CPAP therapy with 61 similar patients who had quit therapy.

A significantly smaller proportion of patients continuing CPAP therapy experienced cardiovascular death (1.9%) than did patients who discontinued CPAP (14.8%), the authors report.

Most deaths in the untreated group were during the night or early morning hours, the investigators note, and four of the nine deaths were sudden and unexpected. Only two CPAP-treated patients died of cardiovascular causes during follow-up.

There were also significantly more cardiovascular events (death and new cardiovascular disease combined) in the untreated patients (31%) than in the CPAP-treated patients (18%), the results indicate.

Among the patients who died, there were no differences in age at diagnosis, body mass index, or apnea/hypopnea index, the researchers note.

The two groups did not differ in body mass index (which did not change significantly), subsequent otolaryngologic surgery, or smoking behavior during follow-up, the report indicates.

"OSA is a substantial contributing factor to cardiovascular disease, and cardiologists should be aware of this association, particularly since our data indicate substantial cardiovascular benefit from treatment of the disorder," Dr. McNicholas concluded.

"We are currently engaged in an extensive translational project examining the relationship between intermittent hypoxia (which is characteristic of OSA) and the activation of inflammatory pathways that predispose to atherogenesis," Dr. McNicholas explained. "These studies involve a cell culture model of intermittent hypoxia and also the measurement of various inflammatory and adaptive cytokines in patients with OSA."
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by pattik on Jun 15th, 2005, 11:42am
Thanks Bob--The apnea/oxygen link to CH seems quite substantial from what I have read, and I'm glad you have found recent information to keep us updated.  I, for one, appreciate your research.    Patti :)
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 15th, 2005, 12:29pm
I understand that A Dr. Lasorda from Allegheny General Hospital in Pgh. may currently be considering a study on the possible relationships between headaches, heart defects and sleep apnea.

As I understand it heart patients reporting that their long-term headaches suddenly disappeared after minor heart defects were diagnosed/corrected is what generated interest in the study.  

I am attempting to obtain more infornation and to see if test subjects are being recruited.

Tom  
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by floridian on Jun 15th, 2005, 8:21pm
I agree that apnea is serious, widespread among cluster heads, and seldom treated.  But it is not clear that CPAP machines help most cluster heads, or that clusterheads generally have Obstructive apnea.  I think it is more likely that we stop breathing due to neurological reasons, not due to physical obstructions that block the breath.  Serotonin is key to the nerves that control breathing.

I would encourage people to get a sleep study, and to try CPAP if apnea is found.  But we should be pushing doctors to consider the possibility that our apnea isn't obstructive, just like our headaches aren't migraines.

http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=Apnea



Quote:
Med Clin North Am. 1985 Nov;69(6):1205-19.

   Central sleep apnea.

   White DP.

   Central sleep apnea is a disorder characterized by apneic episodes during sleep with no associated ventilatory effort. More commonly than not these apneas are seen in patients who also have obstructive and mixed events. Although patients with this disorder frequently complain of insomnia and depression, frank hypersomnolence is rarely encountered. As these complaints are common ones seen in numerous clinical situations, and since sleep studies are rarely conducted to investigate their etiology, the true incidence of central sleep apnea has not been determined. The etiology of central apnea remains unknown, although the association between these breathing events and a number of other disease processes has increased our understanding of the disorder. Central apneas during sleep commonly occur after hyperventilation with the associated hypocapnic alkalosis. This occurs at high altitude when hyperventilation is induced by hypoxia and at sea level when spontaneous nocturnal hyperventilation occurs. This suggests that PCO2 is the primary stimulus to ventilation during sleep and that loss of this drive, as occurs with hypocapnia, may produce dysrhythmic breathing. Patients with complete absence of ventilatory chemosensitivity such as occurs with Ondine's curse (central alveolar hypoventilation) or the obesity-hypoventilation syndrome may also have central apneas. For reasons that remain unexplained, central sleep apnea is commonly seen in patients with congestive heart failure, nasal obstruction, and certain neurologic disorders. However, in most patients with central sleep apnea no obvious cause or association can be found. The treatment of this disorder is not entirely satisfactory. If it is severe, mechanical ventilation during sleep can be provided by any one of a number of techniques. However, for the patient who simply complains of insomnia and is found to have a moderate number of central apneas, the treatment choices are limited. Acetazolamide has been shown to decrease central apneas during short-term use, but results have been variable with prolonged administration. Other ventilatory stimulants seem to have little efficacy. Interestingly, oxygen administration has been shown to reduce central apneas considerably in a number of studies, although the explanation for its success is unknown. Central sleep apnea therefore remains a relatively rare disorder whose etiology is not fully understood and whose treatment is not completely satisfactory.



Quote:
Life Sci. 2004 Sep 24;75(19):2281-90.

   5HT2 and 5HT3 receptors' contribution to modeling of post-serotonin respiratory pattern in cats.

Kopczynska B, Szereda-Przestaszewska M. Laboratory of Respiration Physiology, PAS Medical Research Center, 5 Pawinskiego St., 02-106 Warsaw, Poland. kopczynb@cmdik.pan.pl

   Cardio-respiratory reflex effects of an exogenous serotonin challenge are suggested to be modulated by activation of the peripheral 5HT2 and 5HT3 receptors. In the present experiments the blocking effects of serotoninergic active drugs: ketanserin and tropanserin (MDL 72222) were studied in six pentobarbitone-chloralose anaesthetized cats. Bolus injection of serotonin (0.05 mg.kg(-1)) into the right femoral vein evoked prompt apnea, hypotension followed by tachypnoeic breathing. Pre-treatment with ketanserin (0.1 mg.kg(-1)), 5HT2 receptor antagonist, shortened the duration of post-serotonin apnea (P < 0.05), but had no effect on the pattern of post-apnoeic breathing. 5HT3 receptor blockade with the selective antagonist MDL 72222 (0.2 mg.kg(-1)) totally eliminated respiratory response to serotonin. In breaths that followed post-serotonin apnea, peak amplitude of the integrated phrenic signal was reduced (P < 0.001), unbiased by ketanserin blockade, and remained at the baseline level in MDL treated rats. Serotonin-induced hypotension was unaffected by the blockade of 5HT2 receptors. Inactivation of 5HT3 receptors with MDL attenuated the fall in blood pressure (P < 0.05). This data suggests that the squeal of serotonin-induced pulmonary chemoreflex, i.e. respiratory arrest, post-apnoeic pattern of breathing, bradycardia, and partially hypotension are mediated by 5HT3 receptors.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Marc on Jun 15th, 2005, 10:43pm

Quote:
I think it is more likely that we stop breathing due to neurological reasons, not due to physical obstructions that block the breath.


This fits my younger brother's case. His apnea was severe and he was warned that a heart attack was imminent without CPAP.

After 12 years, no more CH's with the CPAP machine.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by mcf69 on Jun 16th, 2005, 10:03am
I've discussed the link between apnea and ch's with several other people on the board, most have greeted it with skepticism, I've gotten the comment several times that if apnea triggered clusters, why do people get clusters during the day when awake?  My thoery is that if oxygen relieves CH, a dip in oxygen levels can trigger an attack.  My personal experience is that since going on cpap several months ago I haven't had a single headache, cluster or otherwise.  I used to wake up every morning with a nagging headache before, now I don't.  As far as the clusters go, I haven't had a cycle since being on the machine, whether this is a result of being on cpap, or just not having a cycle yet, I don't know.  Floridian brings up an interesting point about central apnea, there very well may be a correlation between CH and central apnea.  I do remeber one lady here awhile ago that tried sleeeping with supplemental oxygen and had relief from her CH's, perhaps she had central apnea and it was corrected by the oxygen?  All I do know is that there does need to be more research done, I really think there is a link, especially with those of us who only suffer from nocturnal attacks.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by brewcrew on Jun 17th, 2005, 9:40am
I was diagnosed with severe OSA 2.5 years ago (cluster headaches for 15 years). I was put on CPAP therapy, and have noticed no change in the frequency or severity of my headaches. I've been sleeping better, and I've been out of cycle and PF since early Feb. of this year (which, for me, is a nice long stretch).

The only thing I can conclude so far is that the two conditions are not connected in my case. It is, however, nice to know that statistically I stand much less of a chance of having heart trouble while I sleep.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:13pm

on 06/15/05 at 20:21:15, floridian wrote:
 I think it is more likely that we stop breathing due to neurological reasons, not due to physical obstructions that block the breath.  


It has to do with the way the body is constructed. It is not physical obstructions.

I find it interesting that the heart, sleep apnea and CH are related. Because of the way the body is constructed and functions, a specific type of bodily deficiency would cause all 3 problems.

Any of you ever try acupuncture before? Or have you tried Tai Chi? Tai Chi is something that will not help you for literally years. Probably 3.

I would suggest that your view of the body is inaccurate or incomplete. This is why people have so much trouble finding a cure for CH. They are looking in the wrong place.

If you were to spend some time looking into Chinese medicine, I think you would find some interesting ideas that might apply here.

There is one major difference between Chinese and Western medicine. Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient. Western medicine is like a gas station. The patient wheels up, lays there while the doctor does everything, then drives away.

Western medicine is about magic pills and expensive wonder technology. Chinese medicine is about learning how your body works, then using that knowledge yourself to fix what is broken.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Jonny on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:27pm

on 08/05/05 at 21:13:42, Happeh wrote:
There is one major difference between Chinese and Western medicine. Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient.


Guess what fuck nuts.....I aint got time for shit to work when my head is in a vice......you do not or know anyone that has CH.

Your a fucking troll.......Mount your sticks girls.

Its pokin time!!!!
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Jill on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:39pm

Quote:
There is one major difference between Chinese and Western medicine. Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient.  


I was debating on whether to answer this but... well.... I am.

Chinese medicine is a real good tool for everything but Clusters! And you name the reason, it takes alot of time before it works. Time is not a clusterheads friend sometimes, I know I want relief and I dont want to have to wait for it. Especially not years... already doing that waiting for them to go away... :-/

And before you say it, I have tried some Chinese meds like acupuncture - doesnt work for clusters... actually triggered mine... ::)

Maybe you should go to another board and sell this, it isnt going to work here.. Sorry, had to say it.

Jill
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by floridian on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:55pm
Loads of anecdotal evidence that acupuncture doesn't help with clusters - maybe someday they'll come up with something similar to a nerve block that is specific for CH, but for now, not likely to help.

Chinese herbs - kudzu does work.  Other Chinese herbs can block CGRP, nitric oxide.

Both western and eastern medicine are attempts to understand disorder and remedy it. Both have shortcomings.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Kevin_M on Aug 5th, 2005, 10:24pm

on 08/05/05 at 21:13:42, Happeh wrote:
It has to do with

I find

Because of the way

I would suggest that

This is why

If you were to

Western medicine is about

Chinese medicine is about


The way you start sentences, it gives the impression you had something to say.  Unfortunately, you finish the sentences.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Ueli on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:05am

on 08/05/05 at 21:13:42, Happeh wrote:
Tai Chi is something that will not help you for literally years. Probably 3.
And how do you know it was the Tai Chi that brought a longer remission, and not some "magic pills" or simply old age?


Quote:
... This is why people have so much trouble finding a cure for CH....
Not me, I have no trouble finding a cure, since I have accepted the fact that there is no cure.


Quote:
Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient.
That is, if the body heals itself, or with the aid of some "magic pills", of course the success is claimed for the Chinese method.

That reminds of the ancient Chinese horoscope: a (good or bad) event was not forecast for a specified date, rather a period up to 20 years, or even more, was allowed. So, if the event occurred within a few years the astrologer could claim success, if not he would say you must wait a bit longer and after 20 years nobody thought any longer of the prophecy and the seer had probably died already.  


Quote:
Western medicine is about magic pills and expensive wonder technology. ...
The magic is a complete misnomer, as the way the pill work is usually pretty well known, quite in contrary to most Chinese treatments. The "wonder technology" is only wondrous for people with no knowledge in natural science at all, who instead cling to primitive archaic notions that no reasonable person still believes in.


Quote:
...  Chinese medicine is about learning how your body works, then using that knowledge yourself to fix what is broken.
"how your body works" in Chinese ways means: repeat the thousand of years old fairy tales of good and bad spirits, mysterious forces and energies that nobody can quantify.



I must agree Jonny, you can't be a clusterhead. Otherwise you wouldn't recommend methods that take 3 years (or more) to work. When are you coming out and recommend where to buy a specific herb, which witch doctor to consult?

        [smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by floridian on Aug 6th, 2005, 8:29am

on 08/06/05 at 00:05:46, Ueli wrote:
"how your body works" in Chinese ways means: repeat the thousand of years old fairy tales of good and bad spirits, mysterious forces and energies that nobody can quantify.


My favorite mumbo-jumbo is from the western theory of matter ....   everything is made of quarks!  The word quark was originally a non-sense term from Finnegan's Wake by James Joyce ("Three quarks for Master Mark/Sure he hasn't got much of a bark/And sure any he has it's all beside the mark").  Western scientists were quick to adopt this non-sensical approach to explain a set of experiments that could not be explained in normal logical framework.

According to the great minds, Quarks have 6 properties (which they call 'flavors). These flavors include things I've never tasted, included color, position and charm/strangeness.

However, objectively, these scientists admit that quarks are so small that they cannot have color - quarks are are so much smaller than any wavelength of light, and the same scientists that have said that no one can ever see them. That should be enough to set off a warning in your mind, unless you are not reading this now.

The color flavors they cannot but do have include red, green and blue (sorta like artificial candy, gimme one of those red flavors).  And there are also anti-flavors: anti-red, anti-green and anti-blue, also called cyan, magenta and yellow.

Spin does not occur clock-wise or counter-clockwise like a basketball or planet; quark spin is Up or Down.   While this sounds strange to the untrained person, it should be noted that this is not ordinary spin; it is spin flavor.  Personally, I would have created 'sweet' and 'sour' spin flavors, but I was 40 years too late.  It is true that the early bird gets the worm.

There are 'top' and 'bottom' quarks, just as there are top and bottom members of other types of relationships.  This metaphor makes sense to most people, and needs no further explanation here. It is covered in great detail at most BDSM websites.

As to a sub-atomic particle having charm or being strange (the final 2 flavors),  I'll leave that up to readers.  Some find it strangely charming, others just find it strange.

Quark theory was invented by a chap named Gell-Mann. Gell-Mann described the system as the "Eightfold Way"  - clearly an appropriation of the Buddhist's "Eightfold Path."  When the Buddhists get angry about their mystical terms being borrowed by nuclear physicists (who also invented atomic and hydrogen weapons), the physicists shift the talk to "8-dimensional hypercube manifolds" and go about their business as if the world was not about to explode.

Of course,  you shouldn't expect the physicists to quantify all this in an exact way.  They are too busy crafting metaphors.  One university physics page put it succinctly:
"The masses (of quarks) should not be taken too seriously, because the confinement of quarks implies that we cannot isolate them to measure their masses in a direct way. The masses must be implied indirectly from scattering experiments." http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html

If you'll excuse me now, its time for my five seasons acupuncture treatment - I think I need to raise some of my metal into the wood, and heat water with an excess of fire. My triple burner meridian is overactive, you see. ;)  
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Leggs on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26am
Thanks for that info Bob.  My husband has sleep apnea, and had a heart cath (normal, luckily) last September.  He has had headaches that I think are clusters, episodic, but his doctors blow it off as related to his high blood pressure.  BUT he'll have them when he's on meds and his blood pressure is fine.  

Not everyone with CH may have the apnea problem, and vice versa, but when there are significant numbers, it's good to look into connections that could help the some with treatment.  Another thing, this year, I have gained some weight from lack of exercise after I was hurt in a car accident, and I have been snoring my head off, I even snore myself awake I am so loud sometimes.  My CH has been much worse this year, and peaking it's ugly head around the corner out of cycle....there really could be a connection there, with the lack of oxygen and the headache changes.... 

Re: The troll HAPPEH
GO AWAY!!!! I personally am on kudzu, which helped me get through my July cycle, in a DAY not three years.  

Like someone else said, if it takes three years, how do you know it has anything to do with the treatment?? This is just dumba$$ logic.  Whatever condition you have may have spontaneously gone away, or other issues could have changed that related to it.  Where are your numbers, where are you facts?  

How does your dumba$$ logic explain to a CH sufferer exactly what they are supposed to do for THREE YEARS, when it's hell to suffer through even ONE HEADACHE???

Compliment Chinese medicine all you want, but western medicine does not kill off animals nearly to the point of extinction for their nuts and gallbladders with the off chance of it helping someone who is "patient" 3 years down the road.  Again, where are your numbers where are your facts?  Three years is not a cure or a treatment, three years is a prison term.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:53am

on 08/05/05 at 21:27:44, Jonny wrote:
Guess what fuck nuts.....I aint got time for shit to work when my head is in a vice......you do not or know anyone that has CH.

Your a fucking troll.......Mount your sticks girls.

Its pokin time!!!!



Can someone tell me whether or not hate is a symptom of CH?

I walked in here 3 days ago. I posted my opinion on a subject.

About 8 people responding with friendly insightful posts like this one.

I feel like I have wandered into a motorcycle bar or maybe I am at the local teenager hangout where the kids use cuss words and say nasty things to each other in order to prove their manhood.

If you disagree with my posts, there is no need for attack. You can say you disagree, or you can ignore the post. There is no reason for your hate, your rudeness, and your evil language.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Redd715 on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am
Happeh

This has been said enough and it's about time you listen up.

You are not welcome here.  We don't want your types around.  You have nothing of value to contribute so on behalf of the rest of my family here I'm politely asking that you delete your profile and troll in some other community.  WThe welcome sign clearly states "exclusivly for CH sufferers and their supporters". NOT for trolls spouting nothing but rhetoric.

I've stated this as nicely as you are going to get it.  Now please, turn around and close the door quietly behind you.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am

on 08/05/05 at 21:39:03, Jill wrote:
I was debating on whether to answer this but... well.... I am.

Chinese medicine is a real good tool for everything but Clusters! And you name the reason, it takes alot of time before it works. Time is not a clusterheads friend sometimes, I know I want relief and I dont want to have to wait for it. Especially not years... already doing that waiting for them to go away... :-/

And before you say it, I have tried some Chinese meds like acupuncture - doesnt work for clusters... actually triggered mine... ::)

Maybe you should go to another board and sell this, it isnt going to work here.. Sorry, had to say it.

Jill



Why be sorry? I made a suggestion I think will help people. You disagree. That is fine.

You say cluster people do not have time. Where are you going? As far as I know, we are all stuck here on Planet Earth until we die. You have a choice of finding immediate relief thru pills, or you can fix the root cause of the problem by learning a more correct idea of how the body functions.

As for asking me to leave because what I "am selling" is not going to work, I am puzzled.

I understand why you suggest I should leave. The man who responded before you is aggressive and violent. I completely understand why women would do what is necessary to avoid an aggressive and violent man.

I am a man myself. I deal with animals such as that person all the time. Just like I kick a bad dog, I can kick them. I can protect myself from the mindless. Don't concern yourself with my welfare. It will only give you added stress I don't think you need. I am pleased that you care enough to offer the advice though.

I am not selling anything. I am offering an alternative viewpoint. I do not know how people here think. I phrase what I have to say in a way that I believe people might understand or accept. If that doesn't work, I try to phrase things another way. I am a versatile person.

Adults are just grown kids. They still need to be treated like children. You know how when you have a child and he needs cough medicine? You have to coax and cajole and plead and threaten until he opens his mouth so you can put the nasty tasting cough syrup in his mouth?

That is what I have to do with adults. Except it is 10 times as hard because, as you can see, adults can be hurtful and hateful. I have to get them to calm down, just like a child, then I have to cajole them into listening to me, just like a child, then I have to tell them what I need to tell them, just like the parent finally succeeding in getting the child to swallow the cough syrup.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:22am

And how do you know it was the Tai Chi that brought a longer remission, and not some "magic pills" or simply old age?[/quote]

Why are you certain it was not Tai Chi in this mythical instance you are describing?


on 08/06/05 at 00:05:46, Ueli wrote:
The magic is a complete misnomer, as the way the pill work is usually pretty well known, quite in contrary to most Chinese treatments. The "wonder technology" is only wondrous for people with no knowledge in natural science at all, who instead cling to primitive archaic notions that no reasonable person still believes in.


Your statement is your opinion. You have no real knowledge about Chinese medicine. You say "cling to primitive archaic beliefs". What if I told you that technology is about convincing you to spend money? Those people tell you Chinese medicine is primitive because there is no money in Chinese medicine. Chinese medicine is about natural herbs, inexpensive acupuncture and self help. Western medicine is about monthly prescriptions costing 100's of dollars, MRI machines costing 1000's of dollars to operate, doctors making 200,000 dollars a year.

I am a reasonable person and I believe in Chinese medicine completely. That is because I took the time to look into it. I let go of my unfounded arrogance about Western techonolgy and acutally took the time to look into what Chinese medicine is all about.


on 08/06/05 at 00:05:46, Ueli wrote:
"how your body works" in Chinese ways means: repeat the thousand of years old fairy tales of good and bad spirits, mysterious forces and energies that nobody can quantify.


You are wrong. If I was a con artist who wanted your money, like a Western Doctor, how would I convince you to pay me all your money instead of going to the Chinese Doctor who only wants a fair amount of your money?

I would start up a public relations campaign saying Chinese medicine is no good. Since I have already fleeced hundreds of people out of all their money thru my MRI's, operations's, and drugs, I have lots of money for a PR campaign. Since Chinese medicine is about a fair amount of money, they cannot finance a counter campaign to get the truth out their. They have to rely on word of mouth.

It is also one of the basic tenets of Chinese medicine that they do not try to convince people about the efficacy of their treatments. Part of the treatment is based on faith. A person forced to take Chinese medicine will resist. The results will be poisoned. A person who wants to take Chinese medicine will have the necessary postive mental attitude that is so integral to the health of any human being.



on 08/06/05 at 00:05:46, Ueli wrote:
I must agree Jonny, you can't be a clusterhead. Otherwise you wouldn't recommend methods that take 3 years (or more) to work.


Here is where your arrogance and your sarcasm trip you up. Where are you going? We all live on Planet Earth until we die. You say "Who can wait 3 years" as if you have some alternative. What is the alternative? Living with the pain the rest of your life.

I am an old guy. I can say with utter authority that it took years to understand and find relief from health problems. I already went the route people here have taken. Spending thousands of insurance dollars on MRI's and drugs. None of it worked.

It was only when, out of complete desperation, I went to a Chinese medicine doctor and began to teach myself some of what they know that I was finally able to find relief.

I need to be clear here. I am not saying you can go to the Chinese Medicine doctor and he can cure you immediately. Maybe he can. I am saying that people need to see the Chinese Medicine doctor while also learning about Chinese medicine themselves.

The patient has to learn the basic ideas behind Chinese Medicine so that he can change his life to live properly. If you life a bad life, then expect the Chinese Medicine doctor to cure what you have done to yourself, then you are right. They will fail.

People need to take responsibility for understanding how their body works instead of handing that responsibility to a doctor. A doctor is a busy man with a life. He sees many other patients besides you. If it comes down to a time crunch, the doctor will push you out the door so he can see antoher person. If you are cured or not, it doesn't matter. He has patients to see and bills to pay.

Let me give you an example. I went to a Western doctor with a health problem. He wanted me to do something. I had questions about his recommendations. He answered 1 or 2 questions then he very obviously let it be known he was busy and I was taking his time. The sick paying patient, me, was wasting his valuable time. I was paying him so he would spend time with me to help me. Not to tell me he was busy and push me out the door.

In complete opposition to he above example, I went to a Chinese Medicine doctor with a problem. I had some questions that the doctor was willing to speak with me about. Completely unaware, I took up 3 hours of that doctors time. She had to go out and arrange for other doctors to take her other patients. But she stayed with me for 3 hours trying to help me.

That is the sign of a person who truly cares. A person who wants to do whatever it takes to help a sick patient become healthy.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by LeLimey on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:24am
John go away!!
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by pattik on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:26am

on 08/06/05 at 10:01:17, Redd715 wrote:
 The welcome sign clearly states "exclusivly for CH sufferers and their supporters.


Happeh, does this describe you, or does it not?  If it does not, you are on the wrong site.  Posting your theories does not define you as a supporter.  And if you do not suffer from CH, I see no reason for you to be posting here.  Please refrain.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sandie99 on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:29am

on 08/06/05 at 09:53:13, Happeh wrote:
Can someone tell me whether or not hate is a symptom of CH?

Why do I think of the saying one idiot asks more questions than a group of wise people can answer...? ::)

First, I don't believe in hating other people. Buddha said that " You won't be punished because you hate but your hate will punish you". So I don't waste time in hating others. But I do get irritated. And frankly, you're getting on my nerves! Big time.

You don't want us - the ch community - to make any assumptions about you, but you're making your own about us all the time. You have called members of this community animals.  "I deal with animals such as that person all the time" were the exact words you used. That is rude and uncalled for. This community exists to help people who suffer the most horrible pain there is - clusterheadaches - and their supporters. Which one are you?

I make an assumption of my own: neither. Because if you were one or the other, you would know how hellish even one ch attack is! You would know that people who deal with such pain should not be irritated. Especially when they're having an attack. The unbearable pain makes anyone a rageaholic.

If you have to stick around in here, at least read about clusterheadaches and what we have tried in the past. Then you'd know that very little has skipped our radar. All kinds of cures have been tried and the results have been reported in here.

I'm a peace-loving woman, I have lost my temper in big time 3 times in my entire life (funnily because of men at all times) and you're very close of becoming no 4 on the list. You've been asked not to come here. I must wonder why you want to keep bothering the good people here at ch.com? Get another hobby and leave us alone.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:32am

on 08/06/05 at 09:26:11, Leggs wrote:
Re: The troll HAPPEH
GO AWAY!!!! I personally am on kudzu, which helped me get through my July cycle, in a DAY not three years.  


Hello Leggs. I don't believe we have ever met before. How do you do?

Why is it that you think I am a troll? Because I have a belief system different from yours? That is not a very good reason to be rude to another person.


on 08/06/05 at 09:26:11, Leggs wrote:
Like someone else said, if it takes three years, how do you know it has anything to do with the treatment?? This is just dumba$$ logic.    


Because that is the usual amount of time for a normal person to see results. I said Tai Chi in relation to the number 3 years. Your question makes it sound like I am saying 3 years of Chinese Medicine treatment and you are fine.

Very clearly, I am saying in 3 years the person will have developed the beginnings of a health body. Once they have the underlying foundation that the 3 years of work provides, everything else is downhill from there.


on 08/06/05 at 09:26:11, Leggs wrote:
How does your dumba$$ logic explain to a CH sufferer exactly what they are supposed to do for THREE YEARS, when it's hell to suffer through even ONE HEADACHE???


I don't understand your need to include insults in your questions. I can still understand the queston with no insults.

A person is welcome to continue whatever treatment they choose over the course of those 3 years. If you find that Kudzu stuff helps you, go ahead and take it during the 3 years you perform Tai Chi.

I must warn you though that the use of drugs can affect a person when they are practicing Tai Chi. I have no idea what the effects on the body of Kudzu are. If they are like other drugs, it is not a good idea to take them, then go practice. Save the drugs for the days or times you do not practice.


on 08/06/05 at 09:26:11, Leggs wrote:
Compliment Chinese medicine all you want, but western medicine does not kill off animals nearly to the point of extinction for their nuts and gallbladders with the off chance of it helping someone who is "patient" 3 years down the road.


Your point does have validity. I would say that Western Medicine does the same thing though. You seem to have no problem with Western Medicine.

There is a breast cancer drug that is made from the bark of a tree. Once the drug was discovered, people starting cutting down all the trees. I do not know the current news regarding these trees or the drug. The situation is the same. Destroying something for the benefit of human beings.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:39am

on 08/06/05 at 10:01:17, Redd715 wrote:
Happeh

This has been said enough and it's about time you listen up.

You are not welcome here.  We don't want your types around.  


What exactly is your type? You could be right. Is your type the hater who attacks anyone who is different? Anyone who is not part of the group? Anyone who says or believes something different than you?

If that is what this group is about, you are correct. I do not belong here. I belong with open minded and friendly people who are willing to listen to new ideas. I have posted in 2 thread here. I have posted maybe 10 or 15 posts.

2 thread and 15 posts and I have about 10 haters calling me names and telling me to leave. Not to mention the haters who send me personal messages with awful and disgusting foul language in it.


on 08/06/05 at 10:01:17, Redd715 wrote:
You have nothing of value to contribute so on behalf of the rest of my family here I'm politely asking that you delete your profile and troll in some other community.  WThe welcome sign clearly states "exclusivly for CH sufferers and their supporters". NOT for trolls spouting nothing but rhetoric.


I have plenty of value to contribute. If you would stop attacking me and listen and think, you would see this.

You are being polite? Who are you kidding? You are a bully who is trying to be so obnoxious to a total stranger that he leaves. Your calling me a troll is just a way that simple people use to work themselves up into a froth of hate. You need to work yourself up to spew your hatred and name calling performs that function for you.


on 08/06/05 at 10:01:17, Redd715 wrote:
I've stated this as nicely as you are going to get it.  Now please, turn around and close the door quietly behind you.


Sorry. I don't cooperate with bullies. It is against my nature to encourage people to believe that rude behavior, intimidation and violence get results. I will be here, speaking calmly and politely, trying to help people if I can.

You will need to find someone else to frighten and chase around. By the way you talk, I think you need a woman to bully. They will get scared just like you desire. Your ego can grow to new heights as the woman quivers in fear before your undeniable power.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Redd715 on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:39am

Quote:
Why is it that you think I am a troll?


An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

I think this sums it up quite nicely...

Now take the advice and scram....
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by LeLimey on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:40am

Quote:
For the attention of anyone new reading this.
Happeh is a misfortunate soul who belongs nowhere and is liked by no one.
He has registered on this site under many names and deleted all of them after being offensive and derogatory under all.
This is his usual pattern, to start off as a victim.
Do not be decieved. His opinion and views are worth their weight in manure so unless you have roses read no further!
Oh and he does not have cluster headaches so if you are looking for help his views are of no value to you.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:45am

on 08/06/05 at 10:26:07, pattik wrote:
Happeh, does this describe you, or does it not?  If it does not, you are on the wrong site.  Posting your theories does not define you as a supporter.  And if you do not suffer from CH, I see no reason for you to be posting here.  Please refrain.



Seriously. What is with you people? Do you see what is happening?

One or two bullying loudmouths attack me. It goes with the territory. I am an authoritative and knowledgeable person. There are people in life who are so small that when they hear or see an authoritative person, they must attack. It is their nature. They are like a dog attacking a cat.

You don't have to follow their lead. To me, it appears you are going along with the crowd of bullying haters. That way you remain with the in group.

Why do you want to ally yourself with haters and bullies? How does that benefit you? Do you need their companionship so badly that you will treat total strangers rudely so that the haters can see you are one of them?

That is a reasonable thing. It is a low thing but it is reasonable. I come and I go. If these people are here all the time and they are your group, I understand how it is that people come to feel safe and secure, even in a bad environment.

Did you know there are psychological studies and real world stories about how the victims of torturers like or love the person torturing them? The person being tortured is alone, starving for human contact and relief of suffering. Even though the torturer is hurting them, the torturer is another human being. Even though the torturerer hurts them, it is stimulation that is different from the never ending fear they live in.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Redd715 on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:46am
There is not one person in this board who supports your position, and your insistance on remaining here when you are clearly not welcome or wanted defines you as a troll.

And to set it clear to you azzhole, I am a female, as my profile points out rather clearly.  You do not fit the criteria for membership here.  So be gone.

You think I'm a bully?  Oh the party hasn't even started yet.  You ask for it you'll get it in spades.

Let the games begin people.  
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by maffumatt on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:50am
........................................yawn........................................
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:50am

on 08/06/05 at 10:29:42, sandie99 wrote:
You don't want us - the ch community - to make any assumptions about you, but you're making your own about us all the time. You have called members of this community animals.  "I deal with animals such as that person all the time" were the exact words you used. That is rude and uncalled for.


Sure it is. You fail to mention what the poster said to me. Troll. Dumbass. Get out of here. Verbal intimidation.

I give people what they give me. Give me grief, I give it back.



on 08/06/05 at 10:29:42, sandie99 wrote:
I'm a peace-loving woman, I have lost my temper in big time 3 times in my entire life (funnily because of men at all times) and you're very close of becoming no 4 on the list. You've been asked not to come here. I must wonder why you want to keep bothering the good people here at ch.com? Get another hobby and leave us alone.


It is good that you are angry with me. I have done nothing to you. Called you no names or fought with you or anything. So why is it that you are angry?

Because I am forcing you to think. You are feeling angry because my reasonable words make sense. If I make sense then you will be forced to reopen and look into areas and ideas that you thought were closed and done.

You are angry with me because if I am right, that means there is more work for you to do to understand all this CH business. I understand your feelings. Nobody wants more work.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:52am

on 08/06/05 at 10:40:45, LeLimey wrote:


I must be having an effect. Now people are making up lies about me.

I have never been to this board before 3 or 4 days ago.

As for the rest of it, good people always take this kind of abuse. Think of the wife listening to the angry husband home from work. Think of the mother listening to the angry teenager that tells her he hates her. Think of the doctor listening to the ranting of a patient in agony.

Health care is not for the faint of heart or the weak.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:56am

on 08/06/05 at 10:46:19, Redd715 wrote:
There is not one person in this board who supports your position, and your insistance on remaining here when you are clearly not welcome or wanted defines you as a troll.

And to set it clear to you azzhole, I am a female, as my profile points out rather clearly.  You do not fit the criteria for membership here.  So be gone.

You think I'm a bully?  Oh the party hasn't even started yet.  You ask for it you'll get it in spades.

Let the games begin people.  



You are a woman? Oh lordy. Are you young? One of those newfangled young girls that dresses like men, cusses like men and tries to act like a man? I don't understand that. I like women. I like big boobs, big booty women who act feminine.

I don't want sex with a man. So I don't need the woman to dress up and act like a man so I feel comfortable having sex with them.

Wow!. Being threatened by a woman. What is the world coming to? I am kind of glad I am old. I won't be around to see the world when it finally comes crashing down. Men who think they are women. Women who think they are men. All of them hating anyone who dares to say something new or different.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by maffumatt on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:58am
isn't reincarnation a bitch. At least change your writeing styles John. For someone who has only been here for 3 or 4 days you know the board well.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sandie99 on Aug 6th, 2005, 11:00am

on 08/06/05 at 10:45:34, Happeh wrote:
You don't have to follow their lead. To me, it appears you are going along with the crowd of bullying haters. That way you remain with the in group.

Why do you want to ally yourself with haters and bullies? How does that benefit you? Do you need their companionship so badly that you will treat total strangers rudely so that the haters can see you are one of them?

I can form my own opinions, thank you very much. I've made up my mind about you based on the things YOU have posted here and not on anything else. The only bully in this place is you.

I can see that you don't like that ch.com community stands united against you. You accuse us because we agree with other members of this community and not with you. And on the same time you try to make a case why we should listen to you. If you would have valid points to make, folks in here would listen to you.

Goodbye.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by LeLimey on Aug 6th, 2005, 11:02am
John you've been sprung, this time last time and every time before it.
Face it. You aren't as clever as you think you are.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sandie99 on Aug 6th, 2005, 11:13am

on 08/06/05 at 10:50:45, Happeh wrote:
It is good that you are angry with me. I have done nothing to you. Called you no names or fought with you or anything. So why is it that you are angry?

Because I am forcing you to think. You are feeling angry because my reasonable words make sense. If I make sense then you will be forced to reopen and look into areas and ideas that you thought were closed and done.

You are angry with me because if I am right, that means there is more work for you to do to understand all this CH business. I understand your feelings. Nobody wants more work.


Mister, read my post. I used the word IRRITATED. There's a difference between anger and irritation.

What have you done...hmm...let's see now: you're attacking my ch family, my dear friends here, so you're attacking me as well. I'm taking it very personally when my family and friends have been attacked.

In case there's some confusion inside your mind about me: I've been thinking with my very own brain my whole life. Nobody forces me to do anything. You're insulting my intellingence with your references about me. My profession to question everything I read, learn, write, hear and see. And nothing you have posted in here tells me that I should rely on you.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Kirk on Aug 6th, 2005, 11:37am
This site is here for people who happen to suffer from a particular medical condition. Since you do not appear to suffer from this condition, and are causing the sufferers of that condition here undue stress, I am sure that you would agree that as a decent civilized person you should withdraw from the conversation until a more amiable time.
Perhaps then your opinions will be better recieved. It does your Karma no good to stay. And will merely convince myself and others here that you are just a self serving m*th*rf**k*r [smiley=looser.gif]
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Leggs on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:30pm
<<Hello Leggs. I don't believe we have ever met before. How do you do?

Why is it that you think I am a troll? Because I have a belief system different from yours? That is not a very good reason to be rude to another person. >>

  You did not simply present your belief system different from those here at the CH board, you presented it as the only way, and anyone who would think otherwise would be foolish.  In the U.S. you don't have to use profanity to insight a riot, you can use things called and outlined in the Constitution as "fighting words," which you surely used in acting like one persons treatment was WRONG and yours was right.  Don't you think that was pretty rude?  Watch, I can write this whole letter without using naughty words that hurt your itty bitty feelings


Because that is the usual amount of time for a normal person to see results. I said Tai Chi in relation to the number 3 years. Your question makes it sound like I am saying 3 years of Chinese Medicine treatment and you are fine.Very clearly, I am saying in 3 years the person will have developed the beginnings of a health body. Once they have the underlying foundation that the 3 years of work provides, everything else is downhill from there.

Three years with clusters is not living, and there are people, believe it or not, who DO find relief with western medicine.  Your letter was way too sanctimonious for this arena.  We are like a family of sufferers and supporters, and you are like the traveling salesman with the last cure all tonic.  

I don't understand your need to include insults in your questions. I can still understand the queston with no insults.

A person is welcome to continue whatever treatment they choose over the course of those 3 years. If you find that Kudzu stuff helps you, go ahead and take it during the 3 years you perform Tai Chi.

How knowledgeable of a person are you when you are calling it "kudzu" stuff, and it's actually a Chinese treatment!!???  Most of the knowlegdgeable people here have read through all of med-owl's/floridian's extensive page of info on headaches and the various treatments.  That shows knowledge, knowledge of ALL the alternatives---yes check that word out, ALTERNATIVES[color=Teal], that is NOT how your presented your Chinese medicine/acupuncture, you presented it at the ONLY way.[/color]

I must warn you though that the use of drugs can affect a person when they are practicing Tai Chi. I have no idea what the effects on the body of Kudzu are. If they are like other drugs, it is not a good idea to take them, then go practice. Save the drugs for the days or times you do not practice.

Once again, boy (I am trying really hard not to use naughty works here, so it won't hurt your wittle bittie feewings), the kudzu is NOT a drug, it comes from a plant that was brought to the west to control erosion, anbd it's run rampant because of the weather difference.  It's not reasonable for any civilized person who actually suffers from CH--oh, never mind here, not talking to you, since you obviously CAN'T be a CH sufferer if you think waiting around for three years is an option.  Go check out the connection between clusters and suicide) to say you don't use your usual meds while trying to dance your way to a healthy body.


Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Leggs on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:38pm

on 08/06/05 at 10:32:34, Happeh wrote:
Your point does have validity. I would say that Western Medicine does the same thing though. You seem to have no problem with Western Medicine.

There is a breast cancer drug that is made from the bark of a tree. Once the drug was discovered, people starting cutting down all the trees. I do not know the current news regarding these trees or the drug. The situation is the same. Destroying something for the benefit of human beings.



You don't know the current news for trees, check this out.  If it doesn't make you sick in your stomach, you must be a troll and not human.

http://tigersincrisis.com/problems_2.cfm

You cannot equate the western medicine deriving medicine from Yew trees with the tigers.

http://www.medicalprogress.org/benefits/breastcan/current.cfm

A big difference is, if the Western medicines find this to be a valuable treatment, they will use some sense in preserving the tree, cultivating it to assure the existence of the tree in the future not only because it's the right thing to do, but because it will let treatments  continue. With no tree there is no treatment.  

The tigers do not work the same way.  The components in gall bladders and testicles have never been proven to do a thing, where there HAS been research done on the Yew tree.  Besides, the underground atmosphere of the almighty dollar for the mystical medicines has these parts sold on the black market, often leaving the "leftovers" that is, what is NOT used in medicines, lying in the jungles to rot.  

Okay, Mr. Knowlegeable, don't be throwing out your trivia without backing it up with the facts.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Leggs on Aug 6th, 2005, 1:04pm

on 08/06/05 at 10:56:15, Happeh wrote:
You are a woman? Oh lordy. Are you young? One of those newfangled young girls that dresses like men, cusses like men and tries to act like a man? I don't understand that. I like women. I like big boobs, big booty women who act feminine.

I don't want sex with a man. So I don't need the woman to dress up and act like a man so I feel comfortable having sex with them.

Wow!. Being threatened by a woman. What is the world coming to? I am kind of glad I am old. I won't be around to see the world when it finally comes crashing down. Men who think they are women. Women who think they are men. All of them hating anyone who dares to say something new or different.


I don't know if you have ever been here before, but THIS letter makes you seem like a Jekyll and Hyde.  

Jekyll acts like he is all put upon and hurt and just trying to 'share' some good information with the kind people.  Hyde starts bringing up the size of a woman's  front and hide and who he wants sleep with.  Did you feel you needed to clarify that HYDE to US, or yourself, while you were in THIS personality so no one would confuse you with the Jekyll you are on the weekdays who maybe doesn't like the girls so much?

People used profanity out of their frustration at your comments, and that's so terrible to you, and you don't think what you wrote right HERE wasn't insulting and profain?

Men here are REAL men, they don't want us in our "place," where you apparently do, so you can look at our big boobs and booties.   Apparently your must have racked up some aphrodisiacs at that three hour appointment  with the good doctor, and now you want to come over here and get off talking dirty to us ladies.  

Don't insult us, and wipe off the monitor before your wife comes in.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Jill on Aug 6th, 2005, 1:10pm

Quote:
You say cluster people do not have time. Where are you going? As far as I know, we are all stuck here on Planet Earth until we die. You have a choice of finding immediate relief thru pills, or you can fix the root cause of the problem by learning a more correct idea of how the body functions.


Do you know what the root cause of clusters is? If so, than you know more than most of us here and more than any doctor I have seen. But I am pretty sure that you dont, so why say that this chinese medicine can fix clusters...

You are right, I do have to be on this earth until I die but it is how I want to live that life that decides my course of action. Right now I am living a life I dont really like, one full of pain from clusterheadaches and I would do anything to get rid of this pain. But I want that relief to come quick, I dont want to wait another three years for them to maybe go away. Get my point?

I am curious as to why you wont answer the question about Clusters - do you have them, are you a supporter or do you know anything about them? I am not following any other person here, I personally am curious...


Quote:
I understand why you suggest I should leave. The man who responded before you is aggressive and violent. I completely understand why women would do what is necessary to avoid an aggressive and violent man.


What does this have to do with anything? I am assuming that you are refering to Jonny when you talk about violent men but he is far from that - I met him last month.... Dont speak of what you dont know..

Many have asked you to leave, we have heard your thoughts and given you ours... isnt that enough? And now, you are starting to pick on others like Redd, what you said was uncalled for. Maybe people did speak mean to you first but that gives you no right to say what you did about her..



Quote:
Just like I kick a bad dog, I can kick them.


Of course, this says it all to me about the kind of person you may be. No one should ever kick a dog...

So, that is all from me. I am sorry that we have disagreed but it seems that you know nothing about CH and have no connections with it... just move on..

Jill
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by jcmquix on Aug 6th, 2005, 1:53pm
http://storage.msn.com/x1pnp_rgmi5o51gmCLFJS6Umrq4UvgcqWBaiuDHvMZI1-f7IqsBawPRCyMDiI99KrFJMzBFJwrZhYIidHCx24oUASrzRxWYzQAyg38C0O3qhzA83mYB9l-Ppky6G6beu05c

This is the direction we want to see you going in....

You are a  [smiley=looser.gif]

Leave our Family and our Site alone..... Just Go Bye-Bye

If you are so smart, why do you kepp coming back ??
It is Pretty Clear that YOU are not wanted here...

Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sandie99 on Aug 6th, 2005, 1:59pm

on 08/06/05 at 13:53:01, jcmquix wrote:
If you are so smart, why do you kepp coming back ??

My point exactly. Usually people understand pretty quickly when their presence is not wanted. Rejection junkie...??? ::)
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sassy_lady on Aug 6th, 2005, 4:09pm

on 08/06/05 at 10:45:34, Happeh wrote:
Seriously. What is with you people? Do you see what is happening?

One or two bullying loudmouths attack me. It goes with the territory. I am an authoritative and knowledgeable person. There are people in life who are so small that when they hear or see an authoritative person, they must attack. It is their nature. They are like a dog attacking a cat.

You don't have to follow their lead. To me, it appears you are going along with the crowd of bullying haters. That way you remain with the in group.

Why do you want to ally yourself with haters and bullies? How does that benefit you? Do you need their companionship so badly that you will treat total strangers rudely so that the haters can see you are one of them?

That is a reasonable thing. It is a low thing but it is reasonable. I come and I go. If these people are here all the time and they are your group, I understand how it is that people come to feel safe and secure, even in a bad environment.

Did you know there are psychological studies and real world stories about how the victims of torturers like or love the person torturing them? The person being tortured is alone, starving for human contact and relief of suffering. Even though the torturer is hurting them, the torturer is another human being. Even though the torturerer hurts them, it is stimulation that is different from the never ending fear they live in.


1st of all, from what I have read & learned on this site Has made a Great differant in my family's life, & everyone has their opinons, & this is mine,
You are not a ch'er,
You are not a supporter,
You are a bully trying to push your beleives on everyone here,
We are not children,
We don't want your meds. of any kind,
We are not animals,
& I WILL PICK WHO PICK & CHOOSE WHO & WHAT I WANT TO DO WITH MY LIFE & MY FAMILY.
& I'M SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THROUGH BULLSHIT !!
& YOU ARE FULL OF IT!!! (BULLSHIT) JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN'T GET IT!!
WE DON'T FOLLOW EACH OTHER HERE,
WE DON'T AGREE ON THINGS, YET WE DON'T CALL PEOPLE, CHILDREN, ANIMALS, OR OUT THEIR NAMES,
I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU COME & KICK ME OR ONE OF MY ANIMALS,  
& IF ALL YOU SAY IS TRUE ABOUT PEOPLE, WHAT MAKES YOU DIFFERANT FROM US, WHAT YOU THINK YOUR BETTER THEN US?
OK THEN Happeh YOUR GROUND FROM THIS SITE UNTIL YOU EITHER GET CH'S OR KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS THEM & YOU ARE A SUPPORT!!! NOW GO TO YOUR CORNER & STAY THERE TILL I TELL YOU TO GET OUT!!
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by jcmquix on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26pm

on 08/06/05 at 10:50:45, Happeh wrote:
Sure it is. You fail to mention what the poster said to me. Troll. Dumbass. Get out of here. Verbal intimidation.

I give people what they give me. Give me grief, I give it back.



It is good that you are angry with me. I have done nothing to you. Called you no names or fought with you or anything. So why is it that you are angry?

Because I am forcing you to think. You are feeling angry because my reasonable words make sense. If I make sense then you will be forced to reopen and look into areas and ideas that you thought were closed and done.

You are angry with me because if I am right, that means there is more work for you to do to understand all this CH business. I understand your feelings. Nobody wants more work.


I tell you what I want... for me to believe anything from you...

I want to see your references and your case histories... ?? Do you have those... ??

All I know about you is that you are a really RUDE person and you like beating up on Hurting PEOPLE (My Friends) and then insulting them...

So post that and let us see what you have... other than that go away.... Snake Oil Salesman...

You are a  [smiley=looser.gif]

[smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Pinkfloyd on Aug 6th, 2005, 11:50pm

on 08/06/05 at 08:29:12, floridian wrote:
The masses must be implied indirectly from scattering experiments." http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html
 


floridian...
I just wanted you to know I was very tempted to click on this link but the thought of spending the next week clicking from link to link and reading more on this subject scared the beJesus outta me. I will let your synopsis suffice for all I'll ever need to know about quarks (or not quarks) ;-)

Bob_J
LOL...I'll bet you knew all along where this thread was going to lead when you posted about ch/apnea/heart disease...didn't you? ;-)

Group..
I have long believed that trolls CAN and often do play a positive role in this type of group. IF the group plays their cards right. They can only hurt things if you let them (which I have also seen BTW).
1. They often bring group members closer as they stand together and protect each other.
2. They are best dealt with (other than silence) facts and up to date information that in many cases, would never have been brought up in the first place. Providing facts and current information to prove a trolls assertions false, can teach many things. Posting facts and information to debunk a trolls wild assertions puts information out there that is helpful, especially to newer people that arrive.
Just has to be done with a mild manner and back up information to prove your point. You only have to prove your point once for the group. The troll will try and require you to prove it often, by acting as if the proof was never provided. (another, frustrate the hell out of them tactic) Remember, you're here for the groups benefit, not the trolls.

Ever drive down the road and have some guy flip you off? What do you think will have more of an impact on him, a return flip or a smile and a wave?

I suggest some facts, a smile and a wave.  [smiley=wave.gif]

BTW, leggs, great post. Ya know, when people think about chinese medicine, most would think of green tea and tiny needles. I appreciated the reminder that it includes tiger parts etc.
See..I never would have read that info (facts) without Bob J posting about heart attacks!! LOL

Bobw
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Leggs on Aug 7th, 2005, 8:42am
So are we going to call them quarks instead of trolls? ;;D

I agree BobW, they do have some use, not only do they bring us closer together, it's comic relief, when CH is nothing to laugh about.  We know there are others here to advise us, support us, and chase off the turkeys. ;)
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Ueli on Aug 7th, 2005, 1:36pm

on 08/07/05 at 08:42:17, Leggs wrote:
So are we going to call them quarks instead of trolls? ;;D
That would be a good idea if we take the German sense for 'Quark'. The 'official' translation is curd cheese. But beside that the dictionary also gives as alternative meanings: jabberwocky, balderdash, baloney, blah.

Such German Quark was not only written by the troll Happeh, but also, much to my surprise, by the otherwise highly esteemed Floridan. I assume, for his sake, this excursion into the realm of subatomic physics is not grown on his own manure, but was copied from somewhere else. Nevertheless, I have some comments on this mumbo-jumbo.

If research is finding some completely new concepts some new names must be given. Exact scientific names are usually extremely long and real tongue twisters. To ease communication, shorter, more pregnant names are used. Some are new creations, but more often existing names are used. The attempt to interpret the new concepts with the original meanings of the names is foolish, to say the least.

Example: Meridian means "half day". In astronomy the meridian is the line that splits the sky into east and west, the line the sun crosses at local noon. People, eager to bring the salvation to the western world, borrowed the word 'meridian' for the highways of life energy. Does that mean the meridian of acupuncture is the line that splits our body into two equal halves?


Just one more example that shows what happens when you sleep through physics 101:
Quote:
Spin does not occur clock-wise or counter-clockwise like a basketball or planet; quark spin is Up or Down.
Which way does a basketball spin? I would say, it depends from what side you are looking. If you want to describe the direction of spin, you need a frame of reference; for a baseball for example the view of the pitcher, for a planet the solar system and for a elementary particle the external magnetic field. The rotating electric charge in a spinning particle gives rise to a magnetic moment, and this is always aligned to the magnetic field, either parallel or anti-parallel, sometimes called Up or Down. (BTW, the tiny amount of energy needed to flip the spin of a proton is what is used in a MRI scan.)


Despite the strange and flavory naming in particle physics, it has led to a consistent cosmological world view, from the subatomic quarks to galactic super clusters.



on 08/05/05 at 21:55:34, floridian wrote:
Both western and eastern medicine are attempts to understand disorder and remedy it.
Attempting is commendable, but what counts are achievements. And in this respect the West leads by many to a few. Furthermore, if you compare what the Western medicine achieved in 200 years to the results of the East from a few 1000 years, it is evident that research building on a solid foundation is much more successful than something done in a haze of mythical hearsays.


All in all, a lame attempt to ridicule and discredit modern physics does not enhance the fuzzy foundations Chinese medicine is based on.

PFNADs, Ueli                 [smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Jonny on Aug 7th, 2005, 2:04pm

on 08/06/05 at 09:53:13, Happeh wrote:
Can someone tell me whether or not hate is a symptom of CH? ....YEP!

I walked in here 3 days ago. I posted my opinion on a subject.....YEAH RIGHT!, JOHN!

About 8 people responding with friendly insightful posts like this one.....WE HATE YOU!!

I feel like I have wandered into a motorcycle bar or maybe I am at the local teenager hangout where the kids use cuss words and say nasty things to each other in order to prove their manhood......I WANT TO PUT MY MANHOOD IN YOUR ASS!!!

If you disagree with my posts, there is no need for attack. You can say you disagree, or you can ignore the post. There is no reason for your hate, your rudeness, and your evil language........THERE IS EVERY REASON TO HATE YOU...SCUMBAG!!!!


Fuckin trolls......Oh well, time to use my free minutes to call DJ again ;;D
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by floridian on Aug 7th, 2005, 3:47pm
Ueli,

you are mirroring the style of the arguments against quark theory, getting hung up on terminology that you think is illogical or in disagreement with your own limited ideas of what words should mean.


on 08/07/05 at 13:36:33, Ueli wrote:
Example: Meridian means "half day". In astronomy the meridian is the line that splits the sky into east and west, the line the sun crosses at local noon. People, eager to bring the salvation to the western world, borrowed the word 'meridian' for the highways of life energy. Does that mean the meridian of acupuncture is the line that splits our body into two equal halves?


The term 'acupuncture meridian' is a recent western translation; it was never intended to convey the idea of a geographic meridian where a sphere is bisected into two halves. The objection that an acupuncture meridian does not divide the body in two equal parts is as short-sighted as the objection to subatomic physics because that discipline uses words like color and flavor to describe things that cannot have color or flavor in the traditional dictionary sense of the words.  


Quote:
"Meridian" is the most common translation of the Chinese ching-lo (jingluo), but it is a very imperfect translation. Ching means to pass through, and lo means a net or to connect. "Meridian" was originally used by French researchers to describe all meridians, and is used in this article in that sense. The term "channel" is used increasingly for all meridians, while some prefer to maintain the original distinction between ching and lo and use the terms channels and collaterals respectively. For them, meridian theory would be referred to as the theory of channels and collaterals.

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?ID=1087


Chinese medicine uses hybrid or synthetic variables that can be compared to a principal components analysis; principal components analysis can be used to represent a complex phenomena in any number of simplified dimensions.

While the names of some of these variables are derrived from ancient cosmological ideas, the information represented in the variables have evolved over time, incorporating more observations and relationships between different disease processes and treatments. As with quarks, it doesn't matter if there is something called the color flavor or chi and jing - these are arbitrary, metaphorical terms used to describe something that can be observed and manipulated.  

The hundreds of Chinese notions of heat or fire may seem quarky at first (liver fire ascending, superficial heat, congealed heat in the blood, etc), but they describe many of the same phenomena that western medicine may describe in terms of an excess of free radicals, septic fever, inflammatory cytokines, serotonin syndrome, or other mechanisms for elevating body temperature.  And many of the treatments for these conditions just happen to reduce inflammatory cytokines, or mitigate septic fever, or counteract serotonin, even though the Chinese system of medicine uses quite different terminology.  
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Happeh on Aug 7th, 2005, 9:26pm
Wow! U people really are sick huh?

At first I thought you were simple.

After reading thru all of that, you are insane. Really. Get out and get some fresh air. Meet new people. This incestuous atmosphere with each of your's craziness bouncing off of each other just makes all of you worse.

I haven't been treated like this since I was around poor trash type people. I had forgotten that you existed. I was thinking this is 2005 and people like you are from the past, back in the days of that movie Deliverance.

To find you alive and kicking on the internet is astonishing. I guess you must still be hiding out in the boonies and reproducing huh? Never met anyone like you in the city in the past 15 years. Thank God.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sassy_lady on Aug 7th, 2005, 9:38pm
This Happeh is a nut case please just pass this nut job up, He DOES NOT HAVE CH'S & IS NOT A SUPPORTER, HE IS IN HIS OWN LITTLE WORLD, BEWARE OF HE'S POST, THEY HAVE NOT REAL HELP TO CH'ER OR THE SUPPORTER,  ALL HE DOES IS BELITTLE PEOPLE, HE LIKE TO CAUSE TROUBLE, HURT PEOPLE, CALL PEOPLE OUT THEIR NAMES & GIVE BAD ADVICE !!
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by cootie on Aug 7th, 2005, 9:39pm
I've met a few people like you.......but there either alone or dead. Think before ya leap Pam

I suppose you frequent cancer web sites too.......makes ya feel good don't it ? Yeah.....feel there pain......be glad it's not you.......doesn't it feel good to be able to walk away. I know what yer up to.......cuz like I said.......I know yer type well. Enjoy.................
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Redd715 on Aug 7th, 2005, 9:47pm

Quote:
I haven't been treated like this since I was around poor trash type people.


I guess they let you out of solitary confinement too early then.  

Back with you...  has your sleeve length for your white jacket with the buckles changed since last time?  I think this time we also need to get you the mask with the gag in it.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by jcmquix on Aug 7th, 2005, 9:52pm

on 08/06/05 at 10:40:45[size=2, LeLimey wrote:
For the attention of anyone new reading this.
Happeh is a misfortunate soul who belongs nowhere and is liked by no one.
He has registered on this site under many names and deleted all of them after being offensive and derogatory under all.  
This is his usual pattern, to start off as a victim.
Do not be decieved. His opinion and views are worth their weight in manure so unless you have roses read no further!
Oh and he does not have cluster headaches so if you are looking for help his views are of no value to you.
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by sandie99 on Aug 8th, 2005, 3:59am

on 08/07/05 at 21:26:51, Happeh wrote:
Wow! U people really are sick huh?

At first I thought you were simple.

After reading thru all of that, you are insane.

To find you alive and kicking on the internet is astonishing. I guess you must still be hiding out in the boonies and reproducing huh? Never met anyone like you in the city in the past 15 years.


What do you know... Now we're sick, simple and insane... And this comes from a man who resents being called names. Interesting!

You haven't met people like us? In which desert island have you lived? Because that's the only way you could have avoided meeting people like us. You see, Happeh (or whatever you're called this week): people like us are all around you, in cities, in countryside, everywhere. Always have, always will and I bet that you've met lots of people like us. And actually, you meet people like us every single day. You see, we're not the problem, you are.


Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by rextangle on Aug 8th, 2005, 2:32pm
Happeh, HDILDO or PCMYK,

I had a dream about you last night...

You were very very tanned floating in a blue pool, relaxing, enjoying life... THEN I FLUSHED and you were gone.

So long TURD!

Sincerely,

Rex [smiley=headbanger.gif]
Title: Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
Post by Leggs on Aug 10th, 2005, 3:17pm
<<What do you know... Now we're sick, simple and insane... And this comes from a man who resents being called names. Interesting! >>

Typical reaction from a psycho...Jekyll and Hyde


http://www.wordwebonline.com/search.pl?w=psychotic

You just made a mistake Happeh!!!  We apologize, you ARE a sufferer, but not of CH, but you ARE a diseased and sick person!!!!!  Let us direct you to another board where you can be properly treated, but GET OUT OF HERE

on 08/07/05 at 21:26:51, Happeh wrote:
Wow! U people really are sick huh?

At first I thought you were simple.

After reading thru all of that, you are insane. Really. Get out and get some fresh air. Meet new people. This incestuous atmosphere with each of your's craziness bouncing off of each other just makes all of you worse.

I haven't been treated like this since I was around poor trash type people. I had forgotten that you existed. I was thinking this is 2005 and people like you are from the past, back in the days of that movie Deliverance.

To find you alive and kicking on the internet is astonishing. I guess you must still be hiding out in the boonies and reproducing huh? Never met anyone like you in the city in the past 15 years. Thank God.


Not only are you a psycho, you LOVE coming back to torture us with your GARBAGE when you are not welcome.  You just can't stay away!  You are addicted to us!  Come on, you love us don't you? We are a bunch of sickos and are insane, but you just can't leave it alone, you have to come back to see what we are saying about you, YOU LOVE THE PUNISHMENT!

http://www.wordwebonline.com/search.pl?w=sadomasochist

That hit the nail in the head, deviant, degenerate!

Hey buddy, you want to name call, better find someone in your own league or at your own I.Q. level.

Personally, I liked dicksplat, it was so lame it was funny, but that was on the other troll roasting wasn't it?  

;;D


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