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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2005 >> Rivea Corymbosa
        
(Message started by: clarence on Jun 8^th, 2005, 9:14pm)

Title: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 8^th, 2005, 9:14pm

Got the seeds. I need a little advice.

From Flash's post:

Quote:

Instead of opening the seed, scraping out the inside and making tea; you just crush the entire seeds and make tea.

My question: crush the seeds and make the tea. Is this like with the HBWR? You have to let it soak for a couple of hours? Or, is it make hot tea, and drink right away?

Can I just eat them? Or might they just pass on through?

guinea pig - over and out.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 8^th, 2005, 10:51pm

Although the guy from Ethnogarden Botanicals told me to crush the entire seeds and make tea, I would crush the entire seeds and rely on the advice on the Clusterbuster's group related to HBWS dosing: soak the material you are going to ingest in water for 2 hours, do not heat.

This is confirmed in an article by Albert Hofmann in 1971:

"Ololiuqui (Rivea corymbosa) was used by the ancient Aztecs not only as a potion but also as an ingredient of magical ointments. At the present time the crushed seeds are taken in water..."

Here's a link to the whole article:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/references/other/1971_hofmann_bulletin-narcotics.shtml#s110

If you don't crush the seeds first they will probably have no effect.

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 9^th, 2005, 11:51pm

Alright.

Began soak this afternoon. Left for the day, planning on a dose tonight.

Got hit while in class at 9.30. Luckily class was getting over.

Got home, took the mixture of 6 crushed seeds in a little water. Drank brownish colored water with seed particles. This was 9.55pm.

By 10.55 I was feeling a heightened level of relaxation. CH was gone. Felt pretty good. No hallucinations.

By 11.45, heightened level of relaxation gone. CH returned.

Now in pain once again.

I think next time I will try more seeds.

What do you all think?

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Giovanni on Jun 10^th, 2005, 4:15am

I believe you should wait 5 days, 7 days would probably be better and evaluate the pattern that will emerge (getting better or worse). 45 seeds are like a full LSD dose. You might want to bump it up to 10 seeds next time on an empty stomach.

Stay away from imitrex, et als as this will interfere with the treatment. I'm sure others will have additional information/advice for you. This is only my opinion.

John

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Flash on Jun 10^th, 2005, 5:38am

Keep a headache chart. Record the total kip scores for each day. This is done by adding the scores for each of the attacks together to get a total score for each day.

Best plan is to do this whilst on prescription meds, whilst detoxing, whilst detoxed, then whilst treating onceself with hallucinogens. This gives a good almost objective view of what is and is not working. The people that have done this have mostly reported much worse activity for the first 2 weeks of detox, followed by a massive reduction in activity and (surprisingly) less pain that when using the prescription meds.

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 10^th, 2005, 10:51am

That's very encouraging, Casey. It's exactly what I would have expected from a first dose of 6 Rivea seeds. The guy from Ethnogarden Botanicals said there's a 1 to 4 ratio of equivalence between the psychoactive effects of HBW and Rivea seeds, 5 HBW seeds being the same as 20 Rivea seeds.

It's good news because the effects you experienced from 6 seeds shows that you're not hypersensitive to this treatment.

From the success stories I've read about HBW, those people took 2-5 HBW seeds in 2 doses a week apart. It was normal for CH to return shortly after their first dose, as yours did.

Here's what I would do if I were you:

- As Giovanni said, stay off the trex.

- As Flash said, keep a CH chart.

- I would wait 5 days rather than 7 before the second dose because the effects of your first dose were small, so it should be out of your system sooner than 7 days.

- I would take 16-18 seeds as a second dose. 16-18 is 3 times the 6 you took, 16-18 is reportedly equivalent to 4 HBW seeds, and 16-18 is less than half of the 40-45 that's reportedly equivalent to a LSD dose.

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 10^th, 2005, 5:09pm

I'm in total agreement with BikerBob. After my first experience with HBWR my hits and shadows continued for a couple of days after the first dosing but then disappeared. I'm soaking 4 HBWR seeds in cold water right now, (maintenance dose). I ordered the Rivea Corymbosa 2 days ago and will test between 16-20 seeds ground and soaked for a couple of hours in "cold water" in a week or 2. According to Hofmann's studies heating is not necessary.
Best wishes Clarence, Joe

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Ueli on Jun 10^th, 2005, 6:16pm

I'm a bit confused on the number Rivea corymbosa seeds to take.

Giovanni says that 45 are about equivalent to a full LSD dose. The 16-18 seeds BikerBob talks about would be about a third to a half of a full hit, about the amount needed for cluster busting.

But I've found a source (http://www.gaia-bazar.ch/pflanzen.asp) where they offer the seeds in quantities of 20:
P137 Rivea corymbosa / Ololiuqui Samen(seeds) 20 Stk. Fr 12.- ($ 9.50)

I can't imagine that they sell the seeds in quantities needed for a clusterhead. So, could it be that different strains have different LSA content?

The same site offers Hawaiian Baby Woodrose:
P004 Argyreia nervosa, Baby Hawaiian Woodrose Samen(seeds) 5 g Fr 35.- ($ 27.60)
Does anybody know how many HBWR seeds go in 5 g?

Ueli [smiley=smokin.gif]

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 10^th, 2005, 6:28pm

Hi Ueli. I bought mine in a quantity of 100 seeds for $15.00 US from Iamshaman.com. I don't know about how many seeds would equal 5g. I would guess that the size would of course make a difference. According to what I've read, 20 seeds or so would be a good place to start for clusterbusting and maybe going down in count from there if it works well. I'll file my report on 20 seeds a week from tomorrow. Blessing's Joe

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 10^th, 2005, 6:39pm

Ueli, this was my original post to the Clusterbusters on 5/30 that people have been quoting:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ethnogarden Botanicals from Canada was one of the vendors at the Mind States conference in San Francisco May 27-29.

They had Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds for sale. I told him about HBWR seeds as a treatment for CH. He said if HBWR seeds work, Rivea Corymbosa seeds should work even better. He said they have the same psychoactive effect as HBWR seeds but none of the side effects of HBWR seeds like nausea and gravity-pull. The Rivea Corymbosa seeds are much smaller than HBWR seeds. They're only about 1/4th the size. There are about 4 times as many of them (looked like more than 200) in a 7g package as there are HBWR seeds in a 7g package. He said 20 Rivea Corymbosa seeds is psychoactively equivalent to 5 HBWR seeds. Instead of opening the seed, scraping out the inside and making tea; you just crush the entire seeds and make tea. He also said don't dose more than 45 seeds at a time because 40-45 is like a full LSD dose. Prices are in Canadian dollars, you can order on-line with major credit cards and they ship worldwide. Here's the link to his website...

http://www.ethnogarden.com

Here's the Rivea Corymbosa seeds page...

http://www.ethnogarden.com/cart/index.pl/catid_77/proid_156

Could this be another "legal" weapon in our arsenal against the beast?

I didn't buy them, but I thought one of you experienced psychonauts might want to do some further research on them. I found that they are also known as "ololiuqui" and found these links...

http://www.erowid.org/plants/ololiuqui/ololiuqui.shtml

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/references/other/1971_hofmann_bulletin-narcotics.shtml#s110

Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The 7g package of Rivea Corymbosa seeds that I saw from Ethnogarden Botanicals looked like it contained more than 200 seeds.

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Flash on Jun 10^th, 2005, 8:23pm

I'd go no higher than 12 next time. It's always advisable to exercise caution with hallucinogenic drugs. 12 would be about 1/4 hit. You did right starting with 6 BTW. From this point on never increase the dose by more than 6 at a time. That gives you nice easy steps until you hit the correct dose.

on 06/10/05 at 10:51:27, BikerBob wrote:

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by vig on Jun 10^th, 2005, 9:42pm

on 06/10/05 at 18:16:23, Ueli wrote:

Does anybody know how many HBWR seeds go in 5 g?

Ueli [smiley=smokin.gif]

40 seeds weighed 5g...

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 11^th, 2005, 2:25pm

Aloha!

I am in Maui right now, and was going to take another dose today. As per advice, I will wait a couple of more days. Hits have been a bit more frequent and more pronounced since my dose the other night. I really am having a hard time staying away from prescription meds. Especially since I am trying to enjoy vacation.

Though, I do have to say, that since going off my meds I have noticed something. While the meds, especially Imitrex, bring significant relief in the short term, I think that my CH has been less intense since going off all meds. So, I may be getting hit, but it is not as hard. And I feel better too. That's just my experience.

I will report back soon with the experience with my next dose.
Thanks for all of your help and encouragement.
Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 12^th, 2005, 3:56pm

The description of Rivea corymbosa seeds on IAmShaman.com says that the shamans in Oaxaca, Mexico, where they are cherished for both their history and shamanic use, would ingest 20-30 seeds to communicate with their spirit world.

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 13^th, 2005, 5:31pm

I've exchanged e-mails with the President of Ethnogarden Botanicals, who I met at the conference a couple weeks ago. He has looked further into Rivea Corymbosa seeds.

I asked him if he knew of a better way to ingest them than crushing the entire seeds and soaking them in water for 2 hours. He wrote "Crushing the seeds and Infusing them in wine for 12-24 hours".

I asked him again about any side effects. He wrote "No negative feedback has been received in this regard, also none of our research group has experienced any either."

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 13^th, 2005, 7:08pm

Thank you BikerBob for the great additional information...now the question is red or white wine :P.
PFD&N's, Joe

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 13^th, 2005, 7:54pm

on 06/13/05 at 19:08:17, jokrs2 wrote:

now the question is red or white wine :P.
PFD&N's, Joe

I'd go with a fine Chardonnay (white). Red and white should be equal in the infusion process. Red wine is more of a CH trigger than white.

I can imagine the battle of the titans going on in the brain. The beast trying to feed on the wine to trigger a CH and the d-lysergic acid amide kicking his ass !!!!

;;D

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 21^st, 2005, 10:42am

Back from Hawaii, and a quick update.

Tried 12 seeds - Nothing. Didn't even get the feeling of relaxation that I had had previously. Didn't touch my CH.

Tried 18 seeds - Nothing, almost. No detectable feelings of relaxation. No hallucinations at all. My CH, well, the frequency calmed down, and the intensity has waned a bit. Don't know if it is from the seeds, or if it is just my CH being unpredictable.

I will up it to 24 and see what the deal is.

Casey

edited to add - when I said nothing, that means side effects too. No stomach discomfort. No sickness. No anything.

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by vig on Jun 21^st, 2005, 11:23am

on 06/21/05 at 10:42:01, clarence wrote:

could be a bad batch of seeds...
what else are you taking?

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by LeeS on Jun 21^st, 2005, 11:25am

Glad you didn't have any unpleasant side-effects Clarence.

Reading between the lines, it may well be working. What was the time scale between your doses? Your receptors may have been 'shut', which may or may not have had an impact on efficacy(?)

Personally, I'd wait a while to see how things (on the intensity/frequency side) pan out, before upping the dose. Not experienced in LSA, just MHO.

All the best with it.

-Lee

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jun 21^st, 2005, 11:49am

Hi Casey,

How did you ingest them? Did you crush the seeds and soak them in water for 2 hours? Soak the crushed seeds in wine for 12-24 hours?

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 21^st, 2005, 1:25pm

Vig - I'm not taking anything else.

Timeline -

1st dose - 6 seeds crushed and soaked in water.

2nd dose - 5 days later - 12 seeds crushed and soaked in water.

3rd dose - 4 days after 2nd - 18 seeds crushed and soaked overnight in water.

I may try again with the wine, but I will up it to at least 24.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Flash on Jun 21^st, 2005, 8:46pm

I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future. I will not type posts at 2am in future.

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jun 21^st, 2005, 11:54pm

on 06/21/05 at 20:46:43, Flash wrote:

Have to say they sound like a really shit batch of seeds. Those are mega doses.

Although I agree that a new supplier and new seeds may be different and everyone needs to be careful from batch to batch, this is not a mega-dose IMHO, with the Rivea seeds. I doubt you've seen them flash but they are about the size of poppy seeds you'd find on a loaf of bread. They aren't nearly as potent (per seed) as Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds.

This is always going to be a problem we deal with until "they" finally come out with a prescription pill and even then all dosing problems will not disappear.
Slightly different strengths of shrooms & seeds from batch to batch, supplier to supplier.
That plus the fact that, just as people have different reactions to the same dose of prescription drugs, they will also have different reactions to these.
Some people lose their car keys on 200mg of topamax and some people lose their car, on 50mg.

bobw
Good luck Clarence

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Flash on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 5:37am

Ooops I typed that at 2am and got confused that he was taking HBW... hence my comments. I'll go back and delete it.

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 28^th, 2005, 1:12pm

Sorry I haven't been around too much. I have been studying German like crazy...final tomorrow night.

After my last dose, I said that the frequency and intensity changed a bit. Well, it then levelled off for a few days. I felt pretty good.

Here comes the big idiot part - then I drank a beer. Stupid stupid stupid stupid. Lash me. Intense shadows followed. I hate to say it, but I may never drink beer again.

I then dosed on 24 seeds, crushed and soaked in water. Same as before. No hallucinations. A relaxed feeling. didn't touch the shadows. It has been 3 days, and I am getting hit like I did just after my 3rd dose.

It was 7 days between 3rd and 4th doses.

Anyway, I have a couple days to decide - up it to 30? Or go with the HBW seeds? Either way I think I am going to start my own alternative med farm in my closet. Wish me luck. 2 weeks until I am Chronic.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 28^th, 2005, 3:08pm

Casey, hope you are feeling better soon. I gotta tell you, I just flat out stay away from alcohol. My wife still buys herself beer or wine but she always brings me home Gatorade and sodas. Did you have a good time in Hawaii? Blessings, Joe

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 28^th, 2005, 3:35pm

Really glad you are still here Joe.

Hawaii was a blast. Funny thing is, I drank mixed drinks in Hawaii...nothing. No adverse effects. One beer when I get home, I'm screwed. Forget it, I'm done.

Gatorade - for that deep down body thirst.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Margi on Jun 28^th, 2005, 3:39pm

Casey, I think that has to do with how much yeast is used in the brewing process of beer. Just a wishy-washy theory I've had for a long time and no real proof. I just know that beer is more of a trigger for Mike than mixed drinks and my little pea brain has put it down to that.

But then again, it could just have been the serendipity of Maui that kept you pain free, too. ;)

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 28^th, 2005, 4:21pm

on 06/28/05 at 15:39:07, Margi wrote:

Margi,

A good friend of mine asked me about this same thing yesterday. I think that there is something to it. He asked me about yeast or wheat. Would this affect my eating bread though? Or, maybe it is fermented yeast. I don't know too much about making beer, though. Do some beers have more yeast than others?

Curiouser and curiouser!!!

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Margi on Jun 28^th, 2005, 4:35pm

I think it's really more the fermented yeast, Casey but then again...it could just be yeast of any kind. But that would lead to a discussion about my theory on how candida is involved in clusterhood and people get really mad at me when I do that. ;)

Of course, you do have to realize that now that you're back on Canadian soil, you're actually drinking REAL beer again. Not that seawater that is sold as beer in the states. ;)

*ducking and running really fast now.

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Candycane on Jun 28^th, 2005, 6:21pm

So Casey? Bottom line, are those seeds doing the trick for you? You think or are you still out on that question? I am getting ready to try these and want to know before I torture myself on detox again??

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jun 28^th, 2005, 8:37pm

In my opinion there is no certainty for me that these seeds have done much. Variations in the "cycle" can be accounted for by a number of things, not least of which is the very nature of the beast. I can't say that I have benefited from the RC seeds very much. However, I believe that Joe has, and recommends them enthusiasticially.

I am waiting a few days until I do anything else, and I will decide during that time what exactly I will be doing. RC? HBW? I don't know right now.

Good Luck CC.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jul 6^th, 2005, 11:46am

Hit the HBW seeds after night time hits are now recurring.

7 seeds, insides crushed and soaked in water.

Nothing.

For now I think I am back to Kudzu as long as it doesn't affect my breathing like last time, at least until I can grow my own alternative therapy.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by vig on Jul 6^th, 2005, 12:31pm

on 07/06/05 at 11:46:45, clarence wrote:

7 seeds, insides crushed and soaked in water.

Nothing.

Casey

could still be a batch of dud seeds....

I've had Jalapenos that burned my ears and others I could eat like candy. There's such a variance in potency in organic stuff.

:-/

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jul 6^th, 2005, 3:51pm

on 07/06/05 at 12:31:37, vig wrote:

could still be a batch of dud seeds....

I've had Jalapenos that burned my ears and others I could eat like candy. There's such a variance in potency in organic stuff.

:-/

I thought about that too. I ordered both types of seed from the same company. What are the chances taht both seed types would come from bad batches? Are the chances better that my body just doesn't react? Or, maybe I am doing it all wrong.

I don't know man. 9 days until chronic (I just know its coming...just want to break it).

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jul 6^th, 2005, 4:40pm

on 07/06/05 at 15:51:19, clarence wrote:

Hi Casey,
Were the sees shipped at the same time in the same package?

If so, I suppose its possibe they were overheated during shipment and it deteriorated the LSA. Although I don't know at what temp that would be. Psilocybin deteriorates around 110 degrees. During the summer, I suppose it could ge that hot in a street corner mailbox.

If not...then I would think one of the following is happening. 7 hbwr seeds should have given you quite a jolt. Since that didn't happen....the seeds could be bad. (see above) or more likely, there is something you are eating or taking that is blocking the hallucinogenic actions. Could be something you haven't thought of. One person was using a topical steroid cream for a skin condition that just didn't register as a possible blocker. (it was)
You could be VERY tolerant of hallucinogens. It happens.

The fact that you have almost no hallucinogenic symptoms is more surprising than if you were and it just wasn't helping the clusters.
Something is going on and it isn't just that they don't work on your clusters. I don't think you have any way of telling one way or the other yet, based upon your experiences.

good luck
anything we can do, let us know.

Just be careful....IF you figure out something that might be blocking the actions, do not eliminate that substance and then try 7 seeds again. You'd have to start small again if you remove the offending substance (if there is one).

Bobw

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Bob P on Jul 6^th, 2005, 4:47pm

Quote:

Or, maybe I am doing it all wrong.

LOL! ;;D

Title: Re: Rivea CorymbosaOK, right now I
Post by Sandy_C on Jul 6^th, 2005, 5:28pm

OK, right now I THINK my cycle is over, even though I'm still getting occasional hits on the opposite side of my head. I've been reading up on these seeds, as well as other "alternative" meds and I am totally confused by them. I wasn't into taking recreational stuff back in the golden oldies (I was more the go-go girl than the flower child), so I'm a real dunce in this area. I've also always been one to try to "handle" any pain I've had from numerous ailments over my life without taking the mega meds, so I'm very cautious about those. I'm taking trex by pill when needed for hits, and Kudzu with water, water, water, with an occasional Excedrin kicked in. Obviously, this does not work well, so next cycle, I'm considering the "alternatives". There is so much on this board, as well as on clusterbusters that I'm completely confused. Can anyone sort of spell it out in plain language, kind of drugs for dummies and tell me what I should try first? [smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by tommyD on Jul 7^th, 2005, 6:24am

Okay, it’s like this.

A class of chemicals known as indole-ring hallucinogens are effective for treating clusters, based on what the ClusterBusters and thier predecessors have learned.

The indole ring hallucinogens include: psilocybin, psilocin, LSD, LSA, DMT and a number of others much less well known. Check out Alexander Shulgin’s book, “Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved,” (www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/index.html) and the Erowid web site (www.erowidd.org) for more info on these substances and many others.

- psilocybin and psilocin (from mushrooms)
Magic Mushrooms! Still the ClusterBusters treatment of choice. Works great at about half the dose taken by those who take them for fun. The effect is at the same level as drinking a few beers, tho it’s a very different experience from alcohol. Dosage depends on the species of mushroom used and other factors. Figure one half to one gram of dried mushroom for a theraputic dose. Wait five days between doses for best results.
Some folks have had good luck with very small doses of psilocybin taken repeatedly (daily) or at onset of attack. The “trip” effects are zero to just barely perceptible. The “trip” is shorter (3 to 6 hours), relatively mellow, less visual than LSD, but can be just as intense at high doses.

- LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide, synthesized, does not occur naturally, as far as is known) Very effective for clusters, but has practical problems - illegal drug labs (and all that implies) are the only source. Dosage is in the microgram (millionth of a gram) range and is therefore hard to measure outside a chemistry lab. Famous for its visual hallucinations. Psychedelic effects can be quite intense and last 6 to 12 hours at recreational doses (80 to 100 micrograms). Theraputic dose would be 25 micrograms or so.

- DMT (dimethyl tryptamine, occurs naturally in the brain, and in certain plants). A very interesting chemical that may hold the key to the mechanism of cluster headache treatment or to cluster headaches themselves. But for treatment purposes - don’t even go there. This stuff is scary. Hallucinations are very intense and appear very real. Not for the faint of heart or mind. This is NOT a drug to take for fun. Taken in two forms. Smoked, it produces an intense trip for about 30 to 45 minutes. Ayahuasca is a South American herbal brew containing DMT from plant sources, along with a plant-based MAOI that allows the DMT to be taken orally. Produces a much longer trip - used for spirit quests and other such religious experiences.

- LSA (lysergic acid amide, from flower seeds)
This is what the ClusterBusters are excited about lately. Three natural sources are available:

Morning glory seeds (certain strains). Contains some other chemicals with undesirable side effects. Seed hulls contain a chemical that produces cyanide compounds, and it is too hard to remove the hulls becuase the seeds are small and you needs dozens for an effective dose. Some commercial seeds are coated with pesticides. Can be effctive for clusters, but not recommended.

Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose. A larger seed with fewer of the problematic chemicals found in morning glory. Seeds are large enough they can sometimes be broken open and the inner kernal dug out and used to make tea. The hulls contain most of the problem chemicals and should be discarded. Dosage - start with one seed and work up to higher doses from there as needed.

Rivea Corymbosa. A smaller seed, but contains the least amount of the problem chemicals. Looks very promising. Called Ololiuqui by the Central American civilizations and used for centuries for medicinal and spirtual purposes. ClusterBuster tests are still new and few - still to early to recommend an optimum dosage.

LSA produces a long but very mellow “trip.” Many of those who have tried thereputic doses report “a warm feeling of well being” or no psychedelic effects at all. However, it still must be used with caution. LSA is a powerful hallucinogen, and at higher doses can produce intense experiences.

ClusterBusters is now developing a FAQ on LSA. Stay tuned.

All these hallucinogens must be used with caution. Those will mental problems - especially schizophrenia, paranoia or deep feelings of insecurity - should NOT take indole-ring hallucinogens. The goal is to use a sub-hallucinogenic or minimally-hallucinogenic dose, but you should be prepared for a trip, just in case. This means controlling the set (mind-set -if you fear this experience, don’t do it) and the setting (the environment and the people around you). Best to be in a familiar and secure setting and to have only trusted friends (babysitters!) with you. Pick a time when interruptions are not likely, choose some favorite music, movies (not too intense!) games, picture books or other calming and enjoyable media.

Hope this helps.

-tommyD

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by tommyD on Jul 7^th, 2005, 7:38am

Whoops- almost forgot about the legalities.

ALL indole-ring hallucinogens are ILLEGAL in the US.

HOWEVER -

Psilocybin mushroom spores contain no psilocybin, and are legal to possess and sell, except in Georgia and California. The mushrooms themselves are illegal in most developed nations, except the Netherlands and (for another week or so) in the UK.

Morning glory, hawaiian baby wood rose and rivea corymbosa seeds are legal to sell, possess and grow, but only for gardening purposes. It is ILLEGAL to ingest these seeds. Whatever you do, do NOT go down to the police station or DEA headquarters and eat these seeds. ;-)

-tommyD

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jul 7^th, 2005, 12:29pm

Pink

Seeds shipped in same package, different plastic bags. I suppose that temperatures could have easily reached the level you are talking about, especially through mail facilities.

As for other things I am taking, I have been careful to be off of every other thing except one. I still take prozac for depression. If I remember from another thread I think Flash said that anti-depressents can intensify the experience, and to therefore be cautious. Could this be blocking the effects? I have even stopped all multi-vitamins.

While in the UK I did use mushrooms, and, experienced a very heightened state of visual perception (to say the least). That may have been because I was in so much pain that I got home and just freakin ate the whole package (4-6 shrooms?). I don't know what that says about my tolerance to hallucinogens.

In the mean time I am sorry to say that I feel like I am back at square one. After disavowing trex for probably about 3 months, last night I had one of my worst all time hits, and all I could do was inject. Thought at first about going to ER, but then figured that they would either inject me, or ask me why I didn't inject, or, it would be over by the time they got around to me (last time in ER I was 7 hours before I left without seeing the doc). I will have to detox again before doing anything. I just hope the hits let up. Can't even really do kudzu while on trex.

Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate it very much.

Casey

ps - BobP, After I posted that I thought you might think that was funny. ;)

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by Sandy_C on Jul 8^th, 2005, 9:05am

on 07/07/05 at 07:38:31, tommyD wrote:

Whoops- almost forgot about the legalities.

Whatever you do, do NOT go down to the police station or DEA headquarters and eat these seeds. ;-)

-tommyD

;;D OK - won't eat them in front of any authority figure - how's that? Maybe I could just take them a nice potted plant as a thank you gift for keeping us safe from getting these nasty drugs and things that just might be helpful in our battles against this disease, as well as others. Think that would be OK? ;;D

Honestly Tommy, thanks for all the info. As I said - I'm clueless. Now that I know where to start, I'll do my homework and maybe be prepared for the next visit from the beast.

Stay PF

Sandy

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jul 8^th, 2005, 5:19pm

Hi Casey, I'm sorry to hear that you're having no results with RC and HBW seeds.

I suspect that the reason why you're not getting any therapeutic or hallucinogenic effects from rather large doses of RC or HBW seeds is that the Prozac is blocking their effects. I suspect this for two reasons:

1) The Clusterbuster's FAQ says: "There are some medications which may interfere with psilocybin (and LSD): # 3) tranquilizers and mood-altering medications such as Xanax, Valium, Prozac and Wellbutrin."

2) It is well known that both Prozac and hallucinogens have major effects on serotonergic activity.

I would caution Prozac users to not try to detox from Prozac to use alternative therapy for two reasons:

1) Discontinuing Prozac can increase suicidal tendencies. The thought of increased suicidal tendencies during a CH episode is scary.

2) The 5 day detox period does not apply to Prozac. The half-life of Prozac after multiple dosing is 4 days (range 2 to 7 days). Because of the long half-life of Prozac, it may take up to 1 to 2 months for the active drug substance to disappear from the body. Since Prozac and its major metabolite have very long elimination half-lives, at least 5 weeks should be allowed after stopping Prozac before starting a MAO inhibitor. [1]

I wouldn't be surprised if Prozac has the same effect in blocking the effects of Kudzu. I wish I had better news for you.

Wishing you the best in your quest,

BB

[1] http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-p05.html

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jul 13^th, 2005, 12:43am

BB -

I see your point about Prozac. The only thing I wonder about is why mushrooms produced a very active response. Thanks for all your help.

Still searching.

Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jul 14^th, 2005, 1:54am

Hi Casey,

The Prozac thing was somewhat strange to me. About 10 years ago I used Prozac daily for about 6-9 months. I didn't really have depression or OCD before/during/after, I used it because it was the "in" thing to do and my wacky-lover-sexfiend-girlfriend at the time, a psychologist, was using it. I got the Prozac script from a drinking buddy at the local neighborhood bar who's a psychiatrist, M.D., specializing in sex therapy.

I certainly don't want to minimize the serious disorder called "depression". Are you using the Prozac in conjunction with active psychoanalytical treatment by a psychiatrist?

After experiencing Prozac 10 years ago and magic mushrooms recently, I know why the latter is called magic. The serotonergic effects of Prozac were minimal compared to the serotonergic effects of cubensis. I didn't use them concurrently, but I suspect that the cubensis is a lot more powerful than the Prozac on the 5HT2a and 5HT1a receptors and the 5-HT function in the dorsal and median raphe nuclei. Maybe they could be used together, like verapamil and cubensis can be used together (IMHO and experience).

Consider the information in these two links...

http://www.maps.org/avarchive/igwana/Entheogen.mov

http://www.clusterbusters.com/mycobag.htm

Wishing you the best in your quest,

BB

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by clarence on Jul 14^th, 2005, 10:48am

BB -

Very interesting video. And, I am taking steps already in accordance with the second link.

As for depression - I myself am not currently meeting with a psychologist/psychitrist/counselor. I have in the past, and it was a psychitrist that originally prescribed the prozac to me for depression. I have gone off of it at various times through the years, but after about 6-10 weeks, I find myself incredibly depressed, with thoughts of suicide and anger. It is a freightening situation for me, which is why I have been reluctant to go off of it.

Despite the wisdom of Tom Cruise, I am convinced that there is something to the "chemical imbalance" thing, and am scared to allow myself to become so imbalanced. I din't necessarily think that there are issues that I need to work through with a counselor that have to do with my depression. Anyway, that is my own story. Everybody's is different, and I respect that, as I know you do.

I wonder if, becasue both prozac and psylocybin work on serotonin, I could take the shrooms instead of prozac. It would probably be cheaper, though of lesser legality I would imagine! ;)

One other thing I have been considering is going to see a counselor about coping with chronic pain. As in the next couple of days I will officially be chronic, I am seriously considering seeing someone because the daily pain is just so depressing, and causes me to be incredibly unproductive. Anyway, I am rambling a bit. I appreciate your help.

Thanks,
Casey

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by rextangle on Jul 14^th, 2005, 5:52pm

Hi Casey,

Please read on....

http://www.clusterbusters.com/Importantnotes2.html

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=2768

http://www.heffter.org/pages/activities/prog2002.html

Good luck to you!

Rex

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by javi_spain on Jul 15^th, 2005, 9:28am

Hello everybody

Regarding this Prozac thing I have recently read on the internet that consumers of MDMA (ectasy) claim that:

1) Taking Prozac lessens the intensity of the MDMA "spiritual" experience (apparently it blocks the nerve receptors to which MDMA would associate)

2) Prozac also lessens the oxidative side-effects of MDMA consumption (hangover, depression-like feelings, Serotonine depletion).

I know that MDMA is not quite the same as psylobicyn but may be their mechanism is similar...

Given that is it possible that Prozac blocks the effects of Mushrooms as well? Could that be related at all to Clarence lack of success witht the alternative therapy?

This is just an idea, ok, I actually cannot claim direct knowlegde of this.

Good luck Clarence

Pain free wishes to all.

Title: Re: Rivea Corymbosa
Post by BikerBob on Jul 15^th, 2005, 1:04pm

"Fluoxetine (Prozac) -- even at doses of this antidepressant ranging from 2mg/day to 40 mg/day, there was an overall decrease in most effects from LSD (no matter how much acid people took), as well as a decrease in response to ketamine. There was no change in response to psilocybin. There does seem to be a decrease in the response to MDMA."

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml

LSA is like LSD, which is why Casey had no effects from HBW and RC seeds.

BB