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Title: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 21st, 2005, 10:13am Just wanted to know if any one here has had any success with LSD, I'm a 7 year chronic suffer. Thanks to Nani and Pinkfloyd (Bobw) for there information & support I have have some success with this alternative treatment, I now go 12 hours pain free ! I still get hit when I sleep every 1 or two hours, sometimes I can get in 4 hours without getting hit, O2 takes care of that within a minute or two,and haven't had a kip 10 in 2 weeks !! I almost feel guilty complaining compared to what it was like, But it sure would be nice to sleep. I'm med free now,, and trust me I have been on everything from verapamil to prednisone (4 mg 2x day for 2 years) to lithium. nothing worked except for the prednisone and now i suffer the side effects and of course the trex, I know I abused that and now wonder what damage I have done from that. I have dosed the last two weekends and if it I still can't sleep, I mightl dose again this weekend, Iam getting everything together to start a farm,I've been reading miapet's posts and her success, so if this fails I will be ready. I know i haven't written on this board very often, (I have lurked for years) but thought if this treatment can help me, even if if is 12 hours pf, others might benefit too.. pfdan Cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by wifesupporter on Apr 21st, 2005, 1:09pm have you tried melatonin or gravol for the night time? it has helped my wife get some sleep. PF wishes Steve |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 21st, 2005, 1:25pm LSD??? [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 21st, 2005, 1:52pm Most people are using the alternative therapy, psilocybin (shrooms), rather than LSD. I'm not sure if you are asking about LSD specifically or the"alternative" treatment in general... LSD does seem to be pretty successful, but there's not many people here that are using it (I think). Congratulations on the progress. I hope you can get fully pain free. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 21st, 2005, 1:59pm on 04/21/05 at 13:25:25, Frank_W wrote:
yes, LSD... http://www.midtermpapers.com/11266.htm It was originally investigated for headache relief. (It has a similar chemical structure; an indole ring) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:30pm Interesting.... I think if it came down to a choice, I'd rather have the headaches. Scary... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:32pm not scary at all, the doses are low. There's often less reactions/side effects than with what you've been taking with prescriptions. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:39pm Hrmmm... The only thing I've taken is kudzu, but prior to this last cycle, I was more than willing to go through it without any medications at all. Having seen someone in the emergency room, having a bad trip on LSD, was more than enough to convince me that I don't want anything to do with it. If messing around with LSD is worth it to some people, that's their business, I guess. :-/ |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:44pm "messing around" I don't think anybody with clusters is 'messing' with it like the saps you saw in the emergency room. I can bet they weren't using it to eliminate their headaches. It was originally devised as a headache medicine. It is being included the Harvard MAPS study on Cluster Headaches. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Ellick on Apr 21st, 2005, 3:31pm on 04/21/05 at 14:39:41, Frank_W wrote:
Frank. You don't take enough to trip. It is a very mild dose and has been well researched by loads of CH sufferers. Look in to it a bit more with an open mind. People who have bad 'trips' are drug abusers. We are most definitely NOT. I am pain free from two very small doses of psilocybin. The effect was less than from drugs like triptans (no pun intended). If anything the experience was midly pleasurable like a couple of drinks over a few hours, WITH ONE BIG DIFFERENCE. There was no headache AT THE END. Ellick. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 21st, 2005, 3:47pm Thanks, Ellick. I'm not condemning or judging anyone else's choice at all, whether they choose to use psilocybin or LSD. It's just not the choice I would personally make for myself. That's all I'm saying. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by tommyD on Apr 21st, 2005, 6:07pm Actually, there are indications LSD may be a little more effective than psilocybin for cluster treatment. ClusterBusters recommend psilocybin over LSD for practical and legal reasons. A few: LSD is only available from dealers in illegal drugs. Psilocybin mushrooms can be grown yourself or found growing wild - though eating wild shrooms is not recommended unless you are expert at mushroom identification. Dosage is easier to control with shrooms. It can be impossible to know how much LSD is in a hit of blotter, and the amount involved is measured in micrograms - very hard to work with outside a well-equipped chem lab. Shrooms are legal in some countries where LSD is not. As for bad trips, any hallucinogen - LSD, psilocybin, LSA, whatever - can cause a bad trip if one takes too much or does not consider two very important factors: set and setting. Set refers to the mind set - mood and attitude - of the person taking the hallucinogen. If you fear the hallucinatory experience, you could be in for a rough ride - the hallucinogen may well raise that fear to extreme levels. If you understand that the trip will end soon enough, and that the experience is not real - that is NOT the devil growing out of the capet to eat your soul - you are much more likely to have an enjoyable experience. Setting refers to the environment is which you experience the hallucinogen. Plan the treatment for a place you feel secure, have only friends you trust around you to babysit, perferably someone with experience. Arrange things so there will be no interruptions, no important tasks, no uncontrolled situations. Dead heads may like to trip at concerts, but for most folks it's best to avoid crowds, strangers, uncontrolled situations, driver's tests, biker bars (unless you're a biker), jury duty, SAT tests.... Set yourself up with your favorite tunes, films (comedies are best), other entertainment that's not too intense. And remember, doses effective for CH can be small - no heavy tripping is required, and in fact, larger "seeing God" doses may be counterproductive for CH treatment. All most folks need is enough to get the giggles. Some, including me, have found success with doses so small there is almost no psychoactive effect at all. By the way, the worst trip I was ever on was caused by over-the-counter antihistamines. That was even worse than the PCP I took in 1973 - It was sold as mescaline, and I thought I was so street smart because I figured it was actually LSD. And the PCP was worse than the way-too-large hit of blotter I took at the Watkins Glen festival (with the Dead, the Band and the Allman Brothers). Do NOT take LSD in the middle of 700,000 people! I didn't freak out, but it wasn't fun. -tommyD |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Chillrmn1 on Apr 21st, 2005, 6:15pm Desperation in the pursuit of finding relief from the pain of clusters has led many on a path they may have never thought they would journey before. This type of alternative treatment has resulted in relief and effectiveness without the side effects associated with traditional medications for many. I know this to be true, I'm one of the many. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on Apr 21st, 2005, 8:42pm LSD? Can you say Sansert? Worked for me. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Sophie on Apr 21st, 2005, 8:50pm Frank: After taking triptons, beta blockers and Topamax---I was desperate and determined not to be on those drugs and the ones like them. I am 60 something years old and really didn't want to lose my otherwise good health. I also didn't want to spend every last dime on the prescriptions. So, out of desperation I went looking for an answer and found it at Clusterbusters, along with some very good advice and guidence. For me it was the only way. I am early in the treatment and can't report sucess yet but I have high hopes. And that's more than I had a year ago. What CB is doing through a study at Harvard will hopefully bring relief to many that suffer from this horrible pain. I am looking out for myself but at the same time I could play a part in helping others. I had some hang ups about the treatment (like you) but for me it was right. Sophie :) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 22nd, 2005, 8:49am I know this is a very controversial subject and I don't expect replys from those of you who disagree, I would also imagine that this treatment is for the clusterheads who kip 10 at least 3 times a day, with lower kips in between. Iam not into illegal drugs and experimented very little with pot in my younger days, and to say that I wasn't very afraid to try this would be a lie, I was terrified, but you know what, when you get to the point (I hope you never do) that living is just not worth living with this kind of pain every single day, and waking up or trying to go to sleep, you know that hell will be there waiting for you, Its not living at all and I would rather not, so at this point what do I have to lose, A trip to the emergency room, or maybe some pain free days, you choose,, we all do,, this is my choice pfdan cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on Apr 22nd, 2005, 9:06am tommyD did a fantastic job in outlining the treatments! thank you tommyD! Agreed, the alternative isn't something everyone is willing to try, and that's their choice . . .just as it is the choice of those willing to try it is t heir choice to try it .. .as VIG said, you take such a small amount, you aren't trying for the one-with-the-universe effect . . .so that takes some of the anxiety out of the whole thing *smiles* *YAY* about you're improvements!!! *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 22nd, 2005, 9:22am Thank-you miapet,, The dose is small and just had the giggles, The reason I tried this treatment is I haven't started the schroom farm yet, can I ask if you grew your own ? it does seem a bit complicated, even though bobw says it is relatively easy.. By the way, I just ready through the entire thread yesterday, Not sure how I missed it,, but Iam so happy for you and D,,How long was he chronic ? 20 years? i can't imagine,, and for you to be the strong one for so long. You have to be one in a million ! pfdan cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:14am I worry about the use of LSD. There are the legal and moral questions: by purchasing LSD, aside from breaking the law and taking the risk of getting caught, you are also helping to keep the same drug dealers that sell crack, speed, heroin, illegal fentanyl, etc. in business and we all know the lives that have and are being ruined by illegal drugs. Secondly, you never know what you are getting when you buy LSD (or other street drugs). The dealers are interested in profit and really don't give a shit about you or your pain or anything else and if they happen to be out of LSD one day they'll sell you god knows what. If it is LSD, there is no quality control, so medically you are really taking a chance. Mushrooms are a different matter as you can grow them and get them legally in places, but at the risk of sounding like some right wing "Reefer Madness" type, which I am not, I personally, even if I have to suffer, don't want to get involved with keeping drug dealers in business-they are scum, they kill and ruin lives and for me, the moral cost would be too high. I do hope that you read all of the information on this site and try something else. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:24am I don't believe any of us are patronizing drug dealers... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:27am Whatever form relief takes, I'm all for it, to a point. I want to see EVERYONE free of pain, but the questions of dosage, quality control, and the ethical considerations are, to me, a few of the most worrisome aspects of this option. Be careful, folks. That's all I'm saying. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:32am on 04/22/05 at 10:14:43, hdido wrote:
I'm guessing you never bought LSD. If you go to your local street corner drug dealer, you could probably get crack, heroin, speed and maybe pot, but if you ask for LSD you'd be out of luck. LSD "dealers" are usually separate from the violent drug culture. LSD in the case presented here is actually "saving" a life...freeing someone from pain. BTW, anyone buying cigarettes, sends money to "evil drug dealers" (just my opinion). Talk about ruining lives.. what about the laws that cause this situation. I'm not saying all drugs should be legal, but we need huge reform. The only reason buying LSD is worse than buying cigarettes or alcohol is because it's illegal. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:30pm LSD is produced illegally and is a part of drug dealers' inventory. While your local crack dealer may not carry it on him/her to sell, I am certain that he/she can obtain it. I think that some people choose to deceive themselves about the nature of the drug trade because perhaps the local LSD dealer is someone who does not look like nor act like the stereotypical drug dealer. LSD is a dangerous drug and has caused significant problems for many people over the years since it was introduced on the street. I can guarantee yo that if a LSD dealer gets the drugs in on "credit" and does not pay his source the money owed, he will be dealt with rather harshly, just like the crack or heroin dealer in the same situation. Ecstasy and the other "designer drugs" have not only caused health problems but also are a part of the supply chain that brings in the other "bad" drugs that nice white people don't take. Don't fool yourself, by purchasing LSD you are feeding an organization, or rather organizations, that corrupt people, hurt people and murder people-the players are not nice guys, even though you may meet them in an expensive club or on a college campus and not in some poor run-down neighborhood. Try buying LSD on credit form your supplier and then don't pay him-I think that you may find that you may pray to have CH pain. Yes, tobacco companies sell a dangerous product, but they don't break your legs if you can't pay for your shipment of cigarettes or kill you if you try to rip them off. Be careful and think before you buy-remember, you never really know what you are getting. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by sandie99 on Apr 22nd, 2005, 1:02pm on 04/21/05 at 14:30:47, Frank_W wrote:
I agree. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 22nd, 2005, 1:12pm hdido, I'm not here to argue about the pitfalls of LSD or any other hallucinogen, but...it sounds very much like you get your info from D.A.R.E. which is full of misinformation used to scare kids straight. Yes there are legitimate ocncerns with LSD and they have been outlined above and explains why Clusterbusters has chosen to concentrate on psilocybin rather than LSD. Knowing what you're getting is probably the most important feature. The controlled trials at Harvard will include LSD, as well as psilocybin, simply because it "appears" that LSD may be even more effective. Under controlled circumstances, and knowing exactly what is being administered and the exact dosages, will hopefully, in the end, tell us why it works, and how it works. Testing them both will answer many questions that will hopefully someday lead to the most effective, legal treatment. LSD was known to be an effective treatment in the past. The drug mfgr's were asked to make a non-hallucinogenic, legal alternative. Sansert was the outcome. Worked well for many but had to be taken regularly and caused many serious problems. More so I would say than LSD ever did. All that said, one is more likely to be given LSD free than having to buy it from a "dealer" just as with psilocybin. (that doesn't eliminate the problem of purity though)The "dealers" you refer to don't carry them because for the most part, they are not addictive as are the other drugs you want to lump them in with. A guy could make more and have a steady client list if he was selling Starbucks coffee than hallucinogens. Buying something on credit and not paying is always dangerous. Try not paying the IRS. They may not break your legs but will surely break your heart. Generalizations about the dangers of hallucinogens, such as the following quote, won't cut it here. "LSD is a dangerous drug and has caused significant problems for many people over the years since it was introduced on the street." 20,000 people a year DIE from the use of NSAIDS. 100,000 people a year DIE from doctor/hospital MISTAKES. I can dig up the links to the facts if you'd like. 1 out of 10 people that undergo open brain surgery DIE on the table but our government (and you I presume) approves of microvascular decompression as a viable treatment for cluster headaches. You may not belive this but what we are trying to find is something SAFER than what is now available for cluster treatments. Yes, hallucinogens can be dangerous...no question or argument there. Clusters themselves are also dangerous. There is a "significant" number of people that attempt suicide. There is a significant number of people that suffer permanent damage from the use of "legal" treatments. I can produce numbers to back up my use of the word significant. I know you're trying to help and I do appreciate it. We do need to look very closely at ALL the possible problems. peace~ Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 22nd, 2005, 1:15pm on 04/22/05 at 12:30:42, hdido wrote:
Maybe, but if I asked "my" LSD "dealer" for crack or heroin, he/she would say "Are you crazy? That stuff's dangerous." Quote:
I haven't had access to an LSD "dealer" for about 10 years, but if I bought it on credit and didn't pay, the punishment would be hearing," OK, pay me at work tomorrow." I'm not saying that drugs and violence don't go hand in hand, but it is only because they are illegal. If cigarettes were banned, there would be a lot of "leg breaking" going on. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Ellick on Apr 22nd, 2005, 1:24pm Just for the fun of the debate but with an underlying serious note I would say that the tobacco and alcohol industries world wide are responsible for more deaths and misery than all drug dealers put together. Now I don't in any way condone the organised crime that utilises illegal street drug dealers and I believe the consequences are unacceptable. What about the major drug companies that feed millions of us drugs that are known to be harmful. What is their motivation. One word PROFIT, exactly the same as drug dealers. We all use drugs to help alleviate this absolute bastard pain. We don't always think what we might be doing to our bodies. We don't know all the side effects and the long term outcomes. Do the drug companies tell us. Do they shit. But it is legalised by governement. DO you trust your government. I certainly don't trust mine. What I am getting at through the ramble is drugs are drugs who ever makes them and all manufactureres except a very small minority are in it for the money and in reality they don't care about you or me one JOT. We are in a special circumstance and need to use our intelligence to look for ways to cure our pain. You can bet your life that if a drug company came up with a cure. They would charge us the price of a house for it because we are desperate and their market would not be big. Doesn't that just tell you everything. They are not interested in looking for cure because it is not PROFITABLE. ET.x ET.x |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 22nd, 2005, 2:26pm Hi Frank (& hdido), All of your points, IMHO, are very valid and I do respect what you have said. AND I am not directing this input at you, just addressing some points that you have brought up….and good ones at that. I am just adding some input of my own experiences, so others that may be “on the fence”, or are frustrated with traditional meds, may take a hard look into this treatment. As you have already discovered, the folks that have tried the treatment, are very passionate about it…IMHO…with good reason. In regard to the quality and dosing. The clusterbusters website strongly encourages growing your own to eliminate feeding the drug dealers pockets (valid point Hdido) and to achieve control quality. As far as dosing quantities, it has been shown that larger dosings may not be needed. Small amounts (equivalent to a beer/drink, even if that much) can be effective in disrupting the beast. With larger amounts, I believe most alternative users, still err on the side of being conservative. On the ethical/moral issue....I can not argue this at all..It is illegal for most areas for sure. But on the other side of the coin, and I do not mean to be argumentative, just expressing my own viewpoints on this, if I may. I see all the "approved " meds offered to a Ch'r, some do good... some work one time and not another...some not at all.., then change to something else and try that, not to mention the $ outlay. And with some of these, if not alot, have unwanted side effects, both short term and possibly long term. In respect to legality.. IMHO boils down to what respective governments have deemed appropriate. I think the reason these have been made illegal is from an abuse standpoint. All good yes. But from a medical standpoint, not good. My personal justification does not make this any less illegal at all, not my point. My point is that the government may not necessarily know what is best from a medical standpoint (see next paragraph below, as this will hopefully be resolved). I too, had the same concerns when I first discovered this. After reading for days (literally), all of the medical posts, with no certain med that seemed to work well for the majority all the time, and some needing additional meds to help with the first one, I took a hard look at the alternative. It appeared to have a great, if not overwhelming success rate. After finally deciding to try it and getting relief, I am sold.....It should be mentioned if not already...Harvard medical is currently doing a study on this alternative treatment and is being pursued with great optimism. As with any approval, this may take some time. And yes……with all meds…..you must be careful. Again, I am not trying to force anyone into trying something that goes against your personal beliefs, and I do respect them, but just expressing what I have found for relief that is cheap and very effective. Not in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined that I would be doing this type of treatment, but now I am so ever grateful to the folks at clusterbusters for stepping up and being bold enough to offer insights as to why, how, and how to's. Check it out…..very well laid out and explained in great detail. www.clusterbusters.com Be sure to look at the FAQ’s too. Respectfully, SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 22nd, 2005, 2:51pm I agree with you, Steve. If responsible use of psilocybin helps people, so much the better. Ditto for the kudzu or even LSD. The question, to me, is where do we draw the line? What if heroin or PCP or crack cocaine were found to really be effective? It just seems like a slippery slope... Psilocybin? LSD? People don't even blink an eye, and at the same time, kudzu is being slammed. I don't understand it... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by nani on Apr 22nd, 2005, 4:02pm I wouldn't say kudzu's being slammed, Frank. There have been 3 reports of serious side effects, but no one has suggested we all stop. I think the overall message should be: NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO BATTLE THE BEAST (Prescription drugs, or any alternatives) , DO YOUR RESEARCH AND ENTER CAUTIOUSLY. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 22nd, 2005, 4:20pm I don't believe in slippery slopes. It's as if the whole idea that intelligence exists goes out the window when the idea of a slippery slope comes into play. You see this with a lot of moral issues. There comes a point where the argument, being lost, relies upon, "well, if we let this go, then what's to stop this, this and this from happening?" Amazingly one of the only things I have faith in is the resilience of sanity and rationality inspite of what the local news wants to conivnce us of otherwise. If Heroin was the only thing working, then we would have to look at it then, but that doesn't mean you can't look at LSD or Shrooms, because you have them linked in your consciousness. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 22nd, 2005, 5:22pm This has turned into an interesting and informative discussion. I must say, Floridian, that I do not get my info from DARE, a program that has been shown to be a failure and has done nothing to decrease drug abuse-it is just a "feel good" program that gives the powers that be an opportunity to say that they are doing something useful-yes, it is a useful program for photo ops and sound bites for politicians, the religious right, etc. I mean, with all of this "family values" crap that our current government puts out, what could be better than for a candidate or incumbant to be pictured with a bunch of cute kids and McGruff the crime dog? I also don't believe that because someone has used one drug that they are going to descend into heroin or crack addiction or even worse-I'm sure you've all seen that classic movie about what happens to the sweet, innocent girl who takes one toke of a joint and slides down into "Reefer Madness" [smiley=laugh.gif] We do get desperate from CH and the physical and emotinal pain and the toll that it takes on our lives and those of our loved ones. I know that our "legal drugs", tobacco and alcohol kill far more people than any illegal drug that one can purchase. I hope that the Harvard study is able to demonstrate that the use of certain hallucinogenics or whatever else that they might study, proves to be an effective method to end the suffering of we CH people. I do not judge people who use drugs of any kind and I think that if heroin, cocaine and company should be legalized, with controlled distribution of pharmacutical grade drugs combined with treatment rather than continuing to punish some poor junkie with 25 yrs. in the joint for possession (while corporate, white collar criminals who steal millions from companies and ruin the lives of pensioners, employees and their families get, maybe, a few years at a minimum security federal "club med"prison and also get to keep virtually of the money that they stole-remember Michael Milikin, the junk bond king? Did a few years, got out, was able to pay an approximately 2 BILLION DOLLAR fine and was still left with several billion dollars of stolen junk bond money! Our country hsa a twisted sense of morality. My conern is the possibility that a deperate CH sufferer will buy some LSD that may not be LSD and have tragic consequences and, once again, I don't like to see the illegal drug trade/organized crime subsidized. To say that other, legal entities cause more deaths doesn't wash with me as a valid comparison. Perhaps the fact that the illegal drug trade has been subsidized by our government (the CIA in Panama, Afghanistan, Vietnam d uring the war (Air America), despite the losing War on Drugs we have been "fighting" years-all of that is being helped each time someone makes an illegal drug purchase and I, speaking just for myself, don't want any part of that; perhaps also that one of two 21 yo twin young men, whose parents I know, was stabbed to death two weeks ago in a drug related matter and has turned his father into a zombie-just sits and stares at the door, waiting for his son to come home-has caused me to get on a soapbox. I want the violence stopped, I wnat the destruction of young lives, families and neighborhoods stopped. Try something other than LSD; if the mushrooms work, fine-go grow them, nobody gets hurt. We CH people suffer, we are misunderstood, abused, ignored, some do commit suicide, but I do not feel personally justified in having my pain relieved at the cost of causing someone else to suffer pain. I hope that Harvard proves that hallucinogens are effective for our disease and that we get a dispensation for using it, but for myself, I'll continue to search for another way to ease my pain. Keep the ideas coming, post your experiences and who knows, maybe someone here will be able to find the silver bullet that slays the beast. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 22nd, 2005, 5:23pm Scott, that's not what I'm saying at all. Whatever people choose to do, BE CAREFUL. Whether it's Imitrex, Verapamil, Psilocybin, LSD, Kudzu.... Whatever. Anything, any of these substances, are open to abuse, overdose, harmful medication interactions, etc. I would like to see every single one of us go pain-free, AND as drug-free as possible. I'm not here to preach at anyone. Apparently, it is a crime around here to actually care about people and to care about what they are doing to their bodies. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 22nd, 2005, 6:07pm Just wanted to thank everyone for a good discussion. Nani said it best IMHO.. "NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO BATTLE THE BEAST (Prescription drugs, or any alternatives) , DO YOUR RESEARCH AND ENTER CAUTIOUSLY. " I know ya care Frank and know your views are heartfelt, as are hdido's. I appreciate the opportunity to openly discuss these issues and explore them from all sides. BTW #1...hdido, it was me and not Floridian that suggested the D.A.R.E. comparison. I agree with you about it's effectiveness and it's true purpose. BTW #2....if heroin was effective for treating clusters, people in many countries could actually get a prescription for it. It is one of, if not *the* most effective pain killers on the market. It's very seldom about the drug itself, but about the people that use/abuse it and how it's legislated. BTW #3....please don't anyone take that as a suggestion for anyone to try to use heroin to treat clusters or a plea to make it legal...just a point of discussion. thanks again to everyone for your views/opinions. Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Ellick on Apr 22nd, 2005, 6:11pm Hey Frank , you are not being got at here. It's a discussion. Stick to your guns. It's what you believe in. Without argument we would be nowhere. ET.x |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 22nd, 2005, 6:18pm Thanks for the correction, Pink (apologies to Floridian) and the good disucssion-no one is being attacked for their views. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 22nd, 2005, 6:41pm Quote:
Great statement!!! SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 22nd, 2005, 7:03pm on 04/21/05 at 10:13:10, cynthy wrote:
My first experience with the intense pain of clusters was in '94. At the time, being already well ensconced in the "society for the dedication to decadence", I happen to discover the available and often employed LSD and mushrooms, and as well, cocaine, made them go away. This same scenario appears not to be the case here but I believe this is the slippery slope that Frank is refering to on the side of caution. Yearly 6-9 month episodes have followed since '97 without opting for that treatment again. I respect the work clusterbusters does because of the belief I have that there is an effective aspect to what they are into and the reputation of McLean. Myself though, I have no concept of "responsible" use, so I need to maintain conventional treatments. That is my problem, that has nothing to do with how others employ the effectiveness realized by this alternative. However, the narrower avenue of procurement CB'rs have made mention of would be wiser. I believe it was one Vodka bottle per 10,000 blots, been a long time and sampling appeared to be a requirement. Not everyone accepted the resulting product in a positive light. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on Apr 23rd, 2005, 8:32am cynthy, Yeppers, 20 years chronic . . . If you decide to farm, directions are easy to follow .. .and their are tons of resources on the net . . .depending on how much 'work' you want to do, you can mix the 'stuff' (growing compound) yourself, or buy mycobags that are ready. This thread kind of 'got off track' as to cynthy's question, but there really were some good comments, and great questions . . . Research . . .and make informed decisions . . .it's the best way to treat any medical condition. Our nutritionist says, 'If you have to make a decision, you don't have all of the information.' I really like that saying *g* (btw, for the alternative treatment, I believed I had all of the information before D believed he had all of the information *g* and that was okay . . . when he felt he had the information, he had no decision to make, he knew what was right for him) *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 23rd, 2005, 1:36pm Thanks to all who support my decision to explore the alternative, A lot of good and useful information, I was just wondering,, how many here are chronics,, "I'd rather go through the pain" That just can't be a chronic talking. This is the first time I heard of mycobags, I will look into it, I love your saying regarding decisions miapet, you are very right, there is no decision here I was hit with a kip 4 and then kip 7 last night at work, I tried to sleep today and was awakened every hour,, It seems the frequency and intensity has increased, I will try again this weekend,, everything I have read indicates that it might take a few times before success (for chronics) If it doesn't change the frequency or intensity I will try the kudzu while waiting for the schrooms, does anyone know how long after the lsd should i wait before taking the kudzu, I know this is all new territory for us so any advice would be welcome, pfdan cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 23rd, 2005, 3:59pm I did say, Cindy, that I'd rather continue with my pain than to have it relieved at the cost of causing someone else pain..that is my own moral choice. You don't know the pain that I suffer from..your "that can't be a chronic talking" response indicates to me-and I hope that I am wrong-that as long as you get your pain taken care of then you don't care what the cost might be to others. If you want to try LSD, go ahead, but realize that this isn't the 'Love child" 60's and 70's anymore and if you, or anyone else, wants to keep illegal drug dealers in business, I would like to know how you can sleep at night. No one has commented upon the death of a son of friends of mine in a drug related situation; I find that interesting and sad. When someone writes in about getting hit with a kip 5 or 6, the support pours in, but when a young man is killed, nothing. Perhaps it is because I am new here-imagine, if you can, his parents' pain and compare that with yours. To me your pain or my pain is NOTHING in comparison. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 23rd, 2005, 6:16pm on 04/23/05 at 15:59:45, hdido wrote:
I guess she isn't allowed to make her choice without it being labeled an immoral one compared to your own? This is IMHO, very unfair to connect her choice with the death of the friend of yours. It is no more connected than someone speeding in their car in Oregon and someone jumping off a highway bridge in Florida. I am sorry about your friend, very sorry, and it had nothing to do with you being new. Your description of the event didn't include an explanation. I don't know if he was killed by the police, caught selling crack cocaine to school kids.....or if he was walking to the store for his grandmother and run over by a fleeing drug dealer. Whatever the case, it's always sad and a waste of life when somethones life is ended. I fear now though that this discussion will deteriorate. If you think that a few cluster sufferers, trying to end their suffering, after the medical community has failed them, will prolong the war on drugs...you're mistaken IMHO. We are trying to find a better treatment for cluster headaches. A devastating condition I'm sure you'll agree. The government won't do it. They've let the early research sit on a shelf for 40 years and would happily wait another 40. Maybe your friend's remaining child will develope clusters in 10 years (hopefully not). Hopefully there will be a legal treatment on the market because of the research going on right now. He can then decide if he wants to take the moral highground and not accept treatments that were born of this research of illegal substances. Some of the latest "advancements" by the medical community seem to be making cycles worse, and longer. At this rate, we will all be chronics in 20 years. I would like to know if you will use any future advancements in cluster research if they are developed based upon the current work being done with hallucinogens? Feel free to wait to win the war and for the gov to legalize hallucinogens....or stick with what they now offer you. I'm not happy with the current offering and am not willing to wait for the gov to come up with something better in time for my son or grandson to become a clusterhead. yes, I can take the pain in my head, I have for 25 years. I couldn't stand the pain in my heart watching my kids or grandkids. I'm also not willing to let someone else's subjective morals stand in the way of mine. As this appears to be a moral crossroad that will never lead to agreement on the subject, I would at least hope it can remain a constructive discussion. Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on Apr 23rd, 2005, 7:35pm on 04/23/05 at 15:59:45, hdido wrote:
And one more thing. If I decide to try LSD to stop my cluster headaches I will do so. If you think for one minute that I'll be killing young people then you are just plain nuts. Relieving my pain WILL NOT cause pain for others. Well said Bobw. But I'm afraid you're talking to the wall. Next she'll bring out old, unproven stories and myths of death and distruction brought on by LSD trips in the 70's. Or, God forbid, she'll start thumping on the Bible. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 24th, 2005, 1:54pm hdido, I think you have it all wrong, I believe there pain which they infilicted upon themselves is the cause of our pain, If they had not CHOSEN the road to take the lsd for purely recreational purposes, then this drug could be helping us now, legally, As for the child who passed there is no comparison, between the of loss of a child and our pain from ch, . We could make the same case with guns, motorcycles, alcohol, and the list goes on. Eventually we have to take responsiblitly for our own choices, blame the drug dealer who sell drugs to our children, or the motorcylcle shop for selling that bike to the boy who was killed on in, and fast food for making us fat.. Putting the blame on something or someone else is human nature. As for your moral values I respect your decision, and would hope you respect mine and move on. pfdan cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on Apr 24th, 2005, 3:06pm well said *smiles* . . . . i hope the weekend went well for you, and that you're finding relief. *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 25th, 2005, 8:24am on 04/23/05 at 13:36:57, cynthy wrote:
Tough question. I would guess you would want to wait about a week. That will give you enough time to tell if your last dose is starting to work. If things are improving over that week, hold off on the kudzu. If things are getting worse, try the 'zu...Just a guess though. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 25th, 2005, 9:46am Quote:
Ditto. I've also heard the stories of "responsible" alternate treatment proponents using recreationally. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on Apr 25th, 2005, 12:57pm Of all the people we know, who use the alternative therapy . . . yes, we all try to set up the dosing to be as comfortable as possible. This might mean with music, camping, movies, or what have you . . .that doesn't, IMO, mean it's 'recreational'. Personally, if there was any other way for D to be p/f I'm sure he would go for it . . .he isn't now, nor never was, a recreational drug user. All of us use alternate treatments for one reason . . .to be p/f and have a 'normal' (what ever that means) life. *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 25th, 2005, 2:13pm Quote:
Probably started in that way but I believe there are some who now use it for more than medicinal reasons. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 25th, 2005, 2:19pm Quote:
As in when "out of cycle" maybe? If this is the case, I would say it is the maintanence dose to help stay out of the next cycle. I screwed up in not doing this. I would not be too horribly blown out of my chair in hearing a very small percentage doing it strictly for rec. purposes, these being very few and far between, but I believe an overwhelming majority utilize it strictly for medicinal purposes in keeping away from the next cycle. Maybe I mis-read your post. If Miapet interpreted your post correctly, then yes, setting is very important with this therapy and makes doing it much easier and yes.....more enjoyable. I do not mean about the enjoyable part, as in just doing it for fun or rec. wise...believe me LOL....I have got millions of other things on my "fun" list to do well above the therapy.....but if I have to do it to make these damn CH's things go away and stay away.......I'll make the most of it. And my hat is off to those that know that it is just better to stay away...to keep another old beast from coming back into your lives...Hopefully, research can soon provide everyone with a mutually compatible solution. SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 25th, 2005, 2:37pm on 04/25/05 at 14:13:42, Bob P wrote:
I hope the government(s) can step in and stop these people who are enjoying their medicine too much. ::) Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 2:37pm if masturbation was the alternative treatment would anyone have any moral issues with its use? especially since many people who would be utilizing it would probably also occasional use recreationally. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 2:58pm and lets not even get started regarding a slippery slope..... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:02pm Quote:
Except at this level, it's not medicine anymore, it's pure and simple drug use. You guys don't have to try to qualify my statement, or figure out what I really meant. Plain and simple, there are some clusterheads who used the treatment for medicinal purposes and have graduate to drug abuse, no medicine involved. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:10pm My concern is that, "Alright!! Let's cue up 'Dark Side of the Moon' and 'The Wizard Of Oz!'" stuff, makes it very difficult for medical professionals to take these alternative therapies seriously enough to bother with research or granting money for research. CHer's and migraine sufferers already have enough problem with being wrongly stigmatized as "drug seekers." Recreational usage doesn't do much to minimize this perception. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:19pm Frank, I hear what you're saying. But the idea that everyone has to "take their treatment" in some clinical fashion, making sure they don't enjoy it is hogwash. I was in the hospital last year for an allergy to bee stings after getting stung. They hung an IV of Benadryl, and the ceiling melted and swirled, and I got to admit, it was pretty cool. The Beneadryl helped me survive the sting and I got a bonus "buzz" out of it. And I just don't think I should feel awful about that. What's wrong with enjoying things a little? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:22pm you'll notice I never use the term 'Shroom'. Since we intend to legitimize the treatment with clinical studies, etc. we have to distance ourselves from yahoo recreational drug users (who got the medicine banned in the first place.) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:23pm Drawing the line between medical and recreational is difficult. So difficult, in fact, that it's easier to just ban these drugs all together and pretend they're not medically useful. I'd rather just legalize them for all uses and let people be responsible for their own choices...or at least not be so "uptight" to worry about who's enjoying their dose or taking a dose they don't need. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:23pm on 04/25/05 at 15:19:58, seasonalboomer wrote:
Well, personally, it's not a case of it being a moral issue, but as I said previously, it IS a case of people being a little more discreet, perhaps. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:24pm on 04/25/05 at 15:10:11, Frank_W wrote:
You worry too much about other people's behavior. If the medical establishment seriosuly thought they could make this happen adn make money off of this a few clusterbusters would be the last worry they would have. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:26pm I know someone who's in a lot of physical pain and she sure LOVES seeing the Vicodin truck pull in. Enjoying your medicine is a LOT different than being a recreational drug user. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:27pm on 04/25/05 at 15:22:03, vig wrote:
Who cares? What a charade! |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by nani on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:28pm on 04/25/05 at 15:23:01, JJA wrote:
I agree with Jesse. Responsibility, people, that's what it's all about. Personal responsibility. If had to go this route, it wouldn't make a flippin' difference to me whether anyone else abused it or "enjoyed" their medicine too much. My concern ends where my actions do. Just my [smiley=twocents.gif] |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:42pm on 04/25/05 at 15:32:25, Frank_W wrote:
Easy now. The main point of all of my comments today is that there is no point. There will bo no convincing either side of this debate about the other's point. Vig's is probably the closest to the middle ground that exists here, regarding the idea that a little more discretion might be worthwhile. But the behavior, everyone can type their little fingers off on this one and not a single opinion will be altered. Strong opinions and moralisms are just worthless here, and that's a strong opinion I guess. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:48pm I was actually the one who suggested that a little more discretion might be worthwhile, Scott. i.e. If people are going to use their medications for recreational purposes, (and people probably will, given human nature), then it's probably best if they remain silent about that aspect of it, so that hopefully, eventually, these treatments and the people who need them, will be taken seriously by researchers and doctors who are in a position to help, and may be lurking here. At this point, the study that Harvard is embarking on is a good step in the right direction. I would hate to see that get shelved, and it's the recreational users that could realistically cause that to happen. That's all. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 3:55pm on 04/25/05 at 15:48:31, Frank_W wrote:
You're right on that one! My apologies. You still worry too much about other's behavior though..... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Frank_W on Apr 25th, 2005, 4:01pm Nope. What anyone chooses to do is entirely up to them. What I care about, is that more treatment options are made available to a greater number of people, with proper dosage, quality control, and without legal risks. I care about how we, as a whole, are perceived by the medical community. I care about people not being misdiagnosed and being treated as guinea pigs. I care about people getting relief from the pain of CH, rather than being labeled as drug-seekers. If someone wants to mainline heroin, smoke crack, freebase coke, and do a shitload of purple microdot in their basement, it's no concern of mine. That's entirely their responsibility. Anyway, believe what you want about me. *shrug* |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 25th, 2005, 4:10pm Okay, so if I want to adopt that line of thinking then I would also want to suggest that everyone who likes to discuss how much they drank this weekend be more discreet. Lest the medical establishment think that CH sufferers are just a bunch of drunks with hangovers or alcoholics because they still try to drink in cycle even though it triggers a headache. Or, those who admit to being heavy smokers, lest the medical establishment think that heavy smoking and nicotine addiction and cluster headaches are tied together. Or, any number of freaky behaviors that we all use to get through a cycle, lest we be viewed as mental defectives. (see the thread on the "craziest thing you've done with a headache") All that would be B.S. don't you think? This is a debate, not a personal attack. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 25th, 2005, 4:13pm funny, but doctors DO get goofy ideas of what makes cluster people. My neuro was convinced I was a smoker, because I get CH and all CH'ers smoke, so logically... I'm a smoker, only I'm not... btw, it IS a good debate, some important points are coming to light. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 25th, 2005, 8:23pm on 04/25/05 at 15:19:58, seasonalboomer wrote:
The question being: If you had access to it 24 hours a day in your home, would it just sit there until your next bee sting? This is the implication regarding medicinal/recreational use Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 25th, 2005, 11:44pm Great discussion and exchange of ideas. By the way, to correct any misconceptions, I am not a bible thumper-find the bible a bunch of scary fairy tales-and I'm not a woman-how some people came to that conclusion would make for a whole new interesting thread conerning perceptions. Keep well and keep trying. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 25th, 2005, 11:57pm on 04/25/05 at 20:23:30, Kevin_M wrote:
To imply is one thing. To infer is another. Some people here don't seem to know, or care, about the difference. Not you Kevin. You just opened up the discussion for an english lesson. Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 26th, 2005, 12:31am on 04/25/05 at 23:57:01, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Used here only for the intention of questioning, which may seem persistent. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 26th, 2005, 1:56am on 04/26/05 at 00:31:40, Kevin_M wrote:
Persistent questioning is a necessary component to thorough and accurate conclusions. Our website and data collection probably has 30 times the information it had 2 years ago just by adding the information we've collected by answering questions and trying to look at this treatment from every angle we (and others) can think of. Even though in most instances we can't open a book to get the answers because so little has been done in this area, the scientific questions are easier to answer than moral and ethical issues. But, it's like that for many medical questions. Stem cell research, abortion, pain relief in general, etc, etc, etc. Thats why organizations that deal with these issues have ethics committees. Most decisions include some sort of ethical and moral decisions that need to be taken into account. Whether its cutting down a tree that is the home of a Spotted Owl or the FDA approving a new pain drug that will help millions of people but cause more harm than good for thousands of others. Oxycontin was and is helping tens of thousands (if not more) of people with chronic pain and are living better than they would have without it. In pain relief, it's well known and proven through study after study, that less than 2% of people that use opiods to treat pain will ever have any addictive problems. People without the need for these drugs that use them recreationally will most likely have addictive problems. As this problem grows, the news reports and government actions to curb such abuse, cause some people with chronic pain, that could be helped, to refuse to use these types of drugs for fears that exceed the justification. They read of all the people becoming addicted and robbing gas stations and feel the risk is not worth the reward. They end up living in more pain (and sometimes living in severe pain) because they don't read about the people using these drugs as prescribed and being helped by them. When was the last time you read that Joe Blow went back to work after his back surgery because he's on oxycontin. You don't. It's not a news story because it happens so frequently. I read here all the time that people need to do their own research. Thats all well and good and so they should, but...many won't because they have a preconceived notion of what is good and what is bad. People should do their own research on ALL the different treatments discussed here. This includes mushrooms. Some people will not do so because they have preconceived notions that if it's illegal, it must be bad. Other's have a preconceived notion that's its ok because they did it 30 years ago and had no problem. IMHO, both of these scenarios are wrong. There are good points and there are bad points. Everyone is different and everyone's situation, medical history and health changes with time. We've worked very hard on developing a set of warnings and issues people need to examine prior to using this treatment, even if they are fine with it ethically and morally. This is not for everyone. Our hope is that through these studies and discussions and reviews, this will be a treatment that more people can safely use in the future. In whatever manifestation it may take in the future. Maybe some researcher in the future will figure out a different way to "tweak" sansert to make it safer and more effective. This entire study project is completely patient driven and funded. If we'd waited for the "establishment" to do something, we'd wait another 40 years. 90% of doctors won't even discuss it in email for fear of repercussions based upon what is happening in the area of opiod prescriptions and use, doctors going to jail, and their prescribing habits being monitored. Kudzu has it's own problems, some of which are shared by mushrooms. You sure won't find any pharmaceutical companies running out to begin clinical trials. Some herbal company might at some point but soon, when the FDA begins clamping down on the herbal market, at the urging of the pharmico's, that'll slow down any advancements in that area. Kudzu too will need to be patient driven should it continue to show promise. Just like with the mushrooms, as we've seen, there can be complications and it's not for everyone. Clinical trials/studies will need to be done to answer many of the same questions being asked of the mushroom treatment. Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 26th, 2005, 2:44am on 04/26/05 at 01:56:35, Pinkfloyd wrote:
;) Regarding Clusterbusters, I realize this. Best of hopes. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 26th, 2005, 6:03am on 04/25/05 at 15:02:35, Bob P wrote:
Whoa you're really stooping to an all time low here aren't you. Please could you name some names - nobody will mind. Also it will be in the interests of science since psilocybin and LSD are currenly classified as counter addicitve. In fact your findings may help halt the research at McLen Hospital into using LSD to treat drug and alcohol addiction. You'd be doing the world a great service. Personally I can only speak for myself. I started off as a recreational user in January 1993. One of the reasons I was using drugs recreationally was that the CH was fucking up my life so badly. I stopped recreational useage in 1994, only resuming with psilocybin to combat CH in September 1995. Ever since I've been using smaller and less frequent doses. Drugs make me nervious and anxious now, to the extent that I've even started weaning myself of alcohol. Sure some people MIGHT try shrooms for the first time, think "hey that was a laugh", and perhaps take them a couple of times until the novelty wears off. But the novelty does wear off. Hanging around clusterbusters for several years now and it's the first I've heard of it, but doubtless you're better informed. There's things I've been informed about too, like missappropriation of f... But since those are just rumours I keep my trap shut. AND hang on - but aren't you an ex-recreational drug user Bob? No doubt you also occasionally break the speed limit, masterbate, mix your meds :o, rip people off, and goodness knows what... who cares? But hey lets not speculate! |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 26th, 2005, 7:59am It is Tuesday morning.. pain free since saturday night !!! I did have a shadow about 6 hours after I took the dose and ran for the o2 gone in less then 60 seconds it was gone !! I slept yesterday ( I work nights) for 7 hours straight ! So far so good,, I'd like to comment about alternative treatment turning into recreational use. From my understanding if you use this treatment when not needed, the beast will find its way back to you, like a lot of people there meds work for a while then out of nowhere they stop. first time i used, I had the giggles, the second time I was feeling very anxious and everything bothered me, the last time I made sure I had something to occupy my mind, I watched the first season of "the 70's Show" so it went ok as far as doing it for the high,, no way !! didn't like it that much and I don't want the beast getting use to it, that right there should be an incentive, pfdan cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by nani on Apr 26th, 2005, 9:00am That's GREAT news, Cindy!! WhooHoo....enjoy every PF moment!! hugs, nani |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 26th, 2005, 9:49am Quote:
Quote:
They can speak for themselves, they know who they are. BTW, didn't say anything about addiction. Said there are some who use for non-medicinal purposes. I'm not an ex-recreational drug user. I'm an alcoholic with a cumpulsion to use all type of drugs for kicks. Every day is a challange. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on Apr 26th, 2005, 9:49am Cynthy, that IS great news - glad you're getting some relief. But I'm confused, though - your original question in this thread was about LSD. So, when you say you dosed again, are you talking shrooms or LSD? If it's shrooms, you really do only need to do 1/4 of the recreational dose (someone will correct me if that's wrong) in order to feel the cluster beneficial effects from the psilocybin. If you're only doing the 1/4 dose, you really shouldn't be feeling the effects you mention, should you? Honest question, folks - no ulterior motive here, just my own ignorance/lack of memory cells. The times my hubby tried the shrooms he honestly didn't feel a "high" at all and he followed PinkSharkMark's instructions to a tee for making the tea. All he noticed was a slight nausea and sleeplessness for the next few hours (and, the times it maybe did help him, an extended remission). I ground it up in my fingertips to make it for him and I felt a bit of nausea as well but it was gone very quickly. (However, I didn't have a migraine for the next six months, so I think I did actually get some benefit from it, as well. I remember talking with Pinky about this bonus side effect for a supporter and he was equally as surprised as I.) However, if you're doing the dosing correctly, Cynthy - you honestly shouldn't be feeling the giggles, anxiety or paranoia. How much did you use? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 26th, 2005, 9:53am We're hoping for the best for you and anyone else giving it the fight Cindy. Never, ever give in! As for yesterdays conversation.... There is far more to gain from viewing the world with open mindedness and wonder than measuring everything against the constraints of your principles or own experiences. And Frank called me a "dick" yesterday. With a view toward open mindedness and wonder, he may be right. In fact I'm certain of it. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 26th, 2005, 10:09am on 04/26/05 at 09:49:33, Margi wrote:
Yes and no. I think that at 1/4 the recreational dose you should be feeling something. Giggles, anxiety and some visuals are common at cycle-breaking doses (in fact they probably are the best indication of a proper dose). (my opinion) The sip method is different however. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Giovanni on Apr 26th, 2005, 12:17pm Anxiety is a hugh issue with me but far better to have a few hours of anxiety than these headaches. I would prefer never to have to take this treatment, but I have no choice if I wish to be painfree. None of the RX medications ever worked to the level of this therapy and with no lasting side effects. Bottom line is everyone has to make his/her own mind on trying this route, but don't fault others who do. John |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cbear on Apr 26th, 2005, 2:45pm on 04/21/05 at 20:42:06, BobG wrote:
Sansert also worked for me ---- unfortunately, it's no longer available in the US. Does anyone know why? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Axel on Apr 26th, 2005, 3:40pm Very interessting thread... I personally try to keep a broad view approach in dealing with CH... My experiences were not very good,with meds, ended up with every side-effect and didn't feel like I owned and controlled my body on these preventives... So stuck with o2 for a while, and decided to try this alernative(shrooms) to see if it could work for me. The side-effects and the buzz in can give, are far less durable than what I experienced with the doctor's pills. ...Six hour after dosing I'm back to myself, and by the next morning ,rested and PF... I've dosed twice , in what is the beginning of my spring cycle ,so I'm hoping it acts as a breaker for this coming cycle! The symptoms had been acting up for a couple of weeks and stopped completely after first dosage! And I don't have to take pills everyday and don't have to live with any daily side-effects like with pills, nor the risk of inducing or creating another condition like a stroke ,heart condition or whatever else these meds might mess up! So this IMO, seems to be the most chemically logical thing to use , works to regulate the exact neurotransmitor that causes CH, without spreading around ,in the body, and creating backfires like the off-label use of medications/legal drugs, the Doc's push on us, do!!! Just seems to me that they're trying to fix us with the wrong tools, so after reading everything I can get my eyes on in the past year on CH, this is clearly the most logical way , with the least risk! Now, if they could just find a way to shake out some of the psychothropic effects from it, this would be a lot easier to market... I'd be really surprised that the incidence of turning into a drug user is very high...1% maybe...dunno, but personaly after having felt over16yrs of drilling poking and undescripable pains, last thing on my mind is to get stone or drunk...! I just wanna enjoy the moments my head is clear from pain ,they are so short, and the backfires from alcohol and other abusive substances just didn't cut it when compared to the intense pain that comes after...! So I really don't see how a clusterhead could become a junkie... ...I really hope this will work for me , Very BIG THANKS to all the info I was able to get on "Clusterbusters"!!!! Really amazing work! Anyone thinking about this absolutely must read everything available very thoroughly, and this should be applied to legal drugs also...read up on what we put in our bodies! we are our best guardians... ..................PF to all........Axel. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 26th, 2005, 5:10pm Quote:
I agree.... and Congrats on the progress Cindy!!! Axel.....good post SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 26th, 2005, 6:34pm Just woke up after sleeping for 7 1/2 hours !! and that doesn't include me trying to fall asleep, had a hard time,I did feel like I was starting a ch, left side of nose got all stuffy so I reached for the o2 and again went away in less than a minute !! Sorry for the mix up, (did I say dose?) lol,, it it lsd i'm trying, didn't want to mix up hit with a ch hit,, Sure do wish this was legal,, but then again if you think about it,, can you imagine going to the doctors and him giving you one or two pills and then saying see you next year ! don't think that would make companies like glaxo-smith very happy,, my insurance comapany would not pay for anymore trex and the cost ,, 176.99 for 9 pills ! yikes,, was taking 2 a day, one to work and one to sleep, and with that was only 6 to 8 hours pf,, so actually they did me a favor, with all the pain and all my money going to pills that left me only one alternative lol,, BTW , i found generic imitrex, its from india,, 18 pills for 169.00 I took a chance and they do work, received them in about 10 days, inhousepharmacy.com, don't know how to link,, pfdan cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on Apr 26th, 2005, 7:42pm on 04/26/05 at 14:45:07, cbear wrote:
Long term (six months) use of Sansert can make a mess of your kidneys (or is the liver?). I don't remember, but then I don't remember a lot of things. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on Apr 27th, 2005, 1:06pm *YAY CYNTHY *happy dance* |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 4:03pm Some of you are acting like puritans mofos! >:( If you think that using mushrooms is as much fun as partying, you are wrong. There are times I really don't feel like dosing, but to keep the beast away, I do it. Just because drugs like prednisone are legal, doesn't mean they're good for you. Look at how many people fuc*ed up their bodies by taking it. I'd lick a dead rat that's been sitting in the sun for weeks if I got the same relief I get from cubensis! It beats putting a bullet in your skull, doesn't it? Now, for those who are against mushrooms, I have a suggestion for you: "DON'T FUCKING DO IT!" That simple. Keep shooting yourselves up with triptans, that's your choice, and I respect it. But don't go around telling people what's right and what's wrong god dammit! Who gives a shit what you think? Hey look! JACK FUCKING DANIEL is legal... It must be a good thing since it's not against the law. When you suffer the way we all do, we should support each other regardless of the treatment we choose. Try to stay open minded! It's called freedom of choice. Flame me all you fucking want, I'm sick of the same old argument. Amen, Rex fucking Tangle. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 27th, 2005, 4:10pm I'd a believed you if you had said you would lick a dead rat's ass that been lying in the sun. But anyone would lick just the rat itself. ;) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 4:13pm Well... that would depend on what he ate before he croaked ;;D |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Chillrmn1 on Apr 27th, 2005, 4:48pm Hey Cynthy, That's great news, glad you're seeing progress and getting relief!! And Rextangle said volumes with this: "When you suffer the way we all do, we should support each other regardless of the treatment we choose. Try to stay open minded! It's called freedom of choice." |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on Apr 27th, 2005, 4:58pm I agree - if something stops another clusterhead's pain - then, YAY!! :) just didn't want to lose sight of the fact that Cynthy is talking LSD in this thread though - not shrooms. Nothing wrong with that, to each his/her own. I just find it interesting that we've got someone trying LSD for clusters and that's producing similar results as shrooms. I know this isn't a big surprise that she's finding success with LSD, it's been discussed before. Just that so many folks are talking shrooms here when the subject really is LSD. oh shut UP Margi, you're babbling! ::) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 27th, 2005, 5:06pm Some do it for fun (aka drug abuse) rather than medicainl reasons. It's really not that hard to swallow, is it folks? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 5:11pm SO FUCKING WHAT???? Some people do crack for "fun"... that's not my problem nor my point... Don't talk about something you know nothing about... A little knowledge is dangerous. Why even bring up your lame ass point of view when you haven't tried it... You said you were an alcoholic! Drink up and shut up! Unless you're doing it for medicinal purposes.... not medicainl... whatever that word is! |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 27th, 2005, 5:19pm Got your panties in a little bit of a wad today? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 5:22pm Look, you only come to discussions about mushrooms to piss on them... do you feel like a bigger man for it? What do you really know about cubensis... I wanna know. Be honest, your only goal is to piss off people who are trying to get relief... am I right? What the fuck is it to you what people do to themselves? Mind your own business... As I said previously, if you don't agree, fine! But don't just come here to cause grief |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flounder on Apr 27th, 2005, 5:43pm on 04/27/05 at 17:06:45, Bob P wrote:
You are confusing drug abuse with recreational use Bob. Not everyone is an alcoholic or an addict. Plus we are talking about substances that are not addictive in the first place. You have said you are an alcoholic. So did the doses you took make you want more, having an addictive personality and all? For the past 5 yrs I have used shrooms to treat my CH and Most of the time I enjoy the experience as well, hey, added bonus. My life hasn't fallen apart; actually I have my life back because of it. I know you don't really believe that any of the people here that are using this treatment are abusing it. You are just trying to stir things up. So for now I'm not going to kick your ass for calling me a drug abuser |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 27th, 2005, 5:54pm Quote:
Aw Rex. I'm sad now. Actually, if you look back in the records you'll find that I was the first US clusterhead to put merit in Flash's claims. First to talk to Goadsby about it. First to talk to MAPS about research on it. Grew my own and tried the treatment a number of times. Never have put down the treatment but have had something to say about attitudes and assumptions from time to time. It really is just a simple statement which is not meant to contain any judgement. Some people have moved from medicinal use to drug abuse. No need to take offense, unless of course ...... Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:06pm BobP, I'm not taking offense, but if you tried it indeed and got no relief from it... I'm sorry to hear that. However, for me being chronic, it's the only thing that ever worked. I'm not "cured" by all means, but I am 90% better than what I used to be. I quit all other medicines that were making me sick as a dog and be a zombie. I just don't understand your attitude about it. Drug abuse? With mushrooms?? Never heard of it. Ok, to make things a little more clear for you. If cocaine was an alternative treatment, I would never do it. Being a former coke addict (over 20 years ago) I would not touch that crap ever again. But since they're is no toxicity with psilocyibin, I don't feel like I'm poisoning my body. Talking about toxic crap, prednisone should be illegal. If people abuse shrooms... so be it! Why is that your problem or mine for that matter... Out of curiosity, what are you currently taking for CH? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Axel on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:15pm ...It sounds to me like, people that have radical judgements against the alternative treatments, that it automatically leads to murder and addiction,(and probably going to dowm to Hell too!), are simply projecting their own fears and weaknesses on everyone else, and try to find releif in guilting others for their own problems with substance abuse!!! ...I've often had alcohol regularly at times in my life, and it never turned me into an alcoholic because of that! ...I just don't have that kind of trigger in me, I really don't feel any need to alter my state of mind with anything, and am really mot using this treatment for the effect...I could really do without!...and meds made me feel a lot worst! We can learn so much from one and other, no need to "stir in" any negative judgement about each other...We're all in here for the same reason... finding freedom from the Beast...!...or are we...? .......PF to all .........Axel. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:21pm Quote:
I can not bring the correct words to mind right now, but same theory or rather same stuff that makes it all work. Maybe the indole ring stuff?? All I know is I get nice relief. LSD is a longer lasting journey I believe.....The mushrooms are shorter. I am pretty certain Cindy said she was waiting for a crop. And the reason for the majority doing the mushrooms: can grow them which = quality control, supply on hand when needed, and not feeding the street. Now on to the rat thing......LMAO!!.....I read something recently about licking frogs or something wierd like that......but a rat in the sun for a week......well I may have to draw a line on this one...well...maybe....Hell, you go first.....if you survive and Ch free, then we'll talk LOL! But ya gotta come up with some detailed FAQ's first ;;D |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:32pm Geez. You guys are way over th edge here. It is just a simple statement: Some use, others treat. Not judging, not guilting, not accusing. It's just a fact. In my mind taking any drug for fun is abusing it. Drugs were made to treat illnesses and conditions, not for fun. BTW - I wear my alcoholism like a badge of courage. I'm beating that bastard. For my clusters right now I'm tapering off prednisone, using O2 and cafergot to abort and taking melatonin and verap at night to sleep. Feeling pretty good the past couple of days but not ready to say I have them on the run yet. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:40pm Glad you're getting relief from these DRUGS. However, I'm not gonna bash you for ABUSING and poisoning your body. That's your choice! And good luck to you and PFDAN, Rex |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:48pm Axel wrote: Now on to the rat thing......LMAO!!.....I read something recently about licking frogs or something wierd like that......but a rat in the sun for a week......well I may have to draw a line on this one...well...maybe....Hell, you go first.....if you survive and Ch free, then we'll talk LOL! But ya gotta come up with some detailed FAQ's first ;;D ------------------------------------------------------ FAQs about the dead rat treatment: -Make sure the rat is dead -Make sure it's been in the sun for few weeks -The smell is unbearable -The more maggots, the better -Hold the rat in your hand and pinch your nose with the other hand - Stick your tongue out and lick the stinky little corpse up and down for five minutes. - Go puke. - You may actually vomit while licking. Don't worry, that's normal - Relax and think about what you just did - Enjoy that PF moment! - Call a friend ;;D |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Axel on Apr 27th, 2005, 6:50pm Realy happy to hear thing are working good for you Bob p... hope tappering works too! It's so nice to see you're softer side... keep up the good work ... ...Pf....Axel |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Ueli on Apr 27th, 2005, 7:47pm This evening I abused something, I just don't know exactly what. I had fun watching a movie. :o |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flounder on Apr 27th, 2005, 9:02pm Quote:You are confusing drug abuse with recreational use Bob. Quote:
So anyone who drinks alcohol is abusing it? You didn't answer my question from my last post. Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 27th, 2005, 9:43pm on 04/27/05 at 21:02:35, Flounder wrote:
I got confused along the way here talking about alternative treatments. What would alcohol be used as a treatment for? Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flounder on Apr 27th, 2005, 10:09pm on 04/27/05 at 21:43:02, Kevin_M wrote:
Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Axel on Apr 27th, 2005, 10:10pm on 04/27/05 at 21:43:02, Kevin_M wrote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 27th, 2005, 10:14pm Quote:
subjective Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by pinksharkmark on Apr 27th, 2005, 10:38pm on 04/25/05 at 15:02:35, Bob P wrote:
A provocative assertion trotted out with no supporting evidence whatsoever. Would you care to explain to us why we should accept this unsupported charge at face value? Who might these mythical clusterheads be? Screen names will do fine -- we don't need home addresses and Social Security numbers. It might be a further service to provide a link to any of their posts (not necessarily restricted to this board) showing their graduation to drug abuse. ***Oops. I see upon more careful review of this thread that this request to back up your claim has already been made. Your response was -- Quote:
Not good enough, Bob P. Name some names or admit you're blowing smoke. It's a serious accusation. We deserve to see some evidence. Any fool can claim "I know for a fact some people are ________ (fill in the blank) but I won't tell you who they are. They know who they are." That kind of "discussion" tactic won't wash even in grade school debate practices, fa cryin' out loud. It certainly isn't going to fool any of the readers here. Give us some evidence or retract your accusation. pinky |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flounder on Apr 27th, 2005, 11:29pm Quote:
Contradiction I'm asking him what he thinks Kevin. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 27th, 2005, 11:46pm on 04/27/05 at 23:29:27, Flounder wrote:
Quote:
Face value, as stated, that is what he thinks. I just thought "alternative treatment" for clusters and alcohol had no relation other than both being forms of considered drugs. One being beneficial for our purposes. The sampling of the effective use of LSD had an influx of adequate concern and interest due to it being sought for its cluster related beneficial purpose. I shall simply say, within the same context, alcohol seems out of place, however it got here, though I understand perhaps only to make a point. effort of peace Flounder. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 28th, 2005, 12:02am Quote:
Noted Axel. Feeling the "oldness" really has no remedy. There are to each, ways to help cope; preferences vary to self-maintain an ongoing state of mind. The oft mentioned "glass of wine" for the heart has perhaps helped some also, though I'm not a fan. My empathy for the elderly influences my responding in any way which would deny alcohol being used as a relieving self-treatment here. Though it is a known depressant also. But my reason for asking was to bring to light the divergence from alternative treatments regarding clusters. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 8:31am Quote:
Then, of course, there's Flash who discovered that shrooms may help clusters while he was using them for "fun". And Pinksharkmark, who often referred to reviving his old, pre cluster, shroom hobby. It's just human nature. With any substance there will be abusers, even addicts (if not physically, mentally). Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 9:13am on 04/28/05 at 08:31:17, Bob P wrote:
Predisone, aspirin, verapamill, sumatriptan, LSD... they are all drugs. Nature does not make the distinction between legal and illegal. Also certain medicines issued OTC in one country are illegal in another, and not because they have any potential for abuse. Just because they are considered as carrying health risks. A drug is a drug. That is the bottom line. Only an anal retentive Jehovas Witness would claim that doing something for pleasure is by definition an abuse. By that narrow interpretation all consentual sex involving contraception is abuse. Unless you're talking 2 paraplegics with itchy genitals... go figure LMAO! See there's "use" and there's "abuse". Two entirely different things. If I get a little drunk on a Friday evening then I'm using alcohol for fun. If I get drunk all the time then I am abusing alcohol. *** So for lack of any other example BobP serves himself up as a case instance of someone that has used shrooms for pleasure off the back of trying to treat his CH. Fair enough... but are you addicted yet? Really that's the crucial question here? *** So what is this really about? Well in my opinion it's BobP trying to apply some negative spin to the Clusterbusters by planting the seed that really we're all nothing more than a bunch of highly vocal shroom advocates that incidentally suffer from CH. That we're cynically exploiting CH to further our subversive shroom cause. *** So why is BobP like this? ...who gives a shit? CH can be explained, human nature can't. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 9:33am Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 9:45am So what are your objectives Bob? What are you hoping to achieve? What would you like to see happen? What benefit will this have? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by nani on Apr 28th, 2005, 10:00am on 04/28/05 at 09:54:23, jminmilwaukee wrote:
Took the words right outta my mouth. Back to Cindy... how are you doing sweetie? I'm a little concerned about the Imitrex from India. Canada...OK....India ...not sure. Please let us know how you're doing. hugs, nani Busters and Bob...maybe you guys should consider your own thread? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 10:05am That is an excellent question. Makes me put up or shut up. First I have nothing against the study. I am part of the study. Dr. Sewell has my medical records. What I would like to see is that blanket assumptions regarding the treatment stop being professed as fact. It really takes away from the legitimacy of the treatment. I'm told by a buster that verap interferes with the treatment yet Dr. Sewell tells me that he has at least one patient for whom verap makes it more effective. I'm told, in another thread, that shrooms "reset the brain chemistry". What chemicals, what are the changes in their levels, has this been looked at or is it just someone's assumption? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 10:31am Quote:
My understanding of this is that due to the anecdotal reports from those that have ventured down this road, that the research that will either explain and substanciate the hypothosis put forth by the busters, or it will explian and substanciate a different mechanism by which it works. Don't quote me here, but I believe that the basis for which the Busters make the calim of resetting the chemistry of the brain is by reading the old (and unfinnished) research on LSD and headache treatment of years ago. Trying to restate the preliminary findings in laymans terms that the average Joe can comprehend is a difficult and daunting task. Let us allow Harvard to do the research and break the mechanism down into scientific terms, rather than demand that laymen do so. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 10:59am on 04/28/05 at 10:05:51, Bob P wrote:
There are no blanket assumptions being made, and nothing has been passed off as fact. As Red715 has correctly pointed out these are nothing more than our various hypothesis. Forming a hypothesis is a common tool of both science and thought in general. Your other statements are used out of context... but of course you knew that already! There are no more absolutes with shroom treatment than any other treatment. One thing that has been observed is that, in most cases, it works better in isolation, something that is true of many other medical treatments. Another thing that has become apparent, is that relatively small and infrequent doses can both abort episodes, prevent episodes, and beak cycles. Used over the long-term it also appears to become more effective and increase remission periods. All this is an indicator that it may act more directly on the fundimental mechanisms of CH than other treatments. The Clusterbusters seek to encourage responsible use of this treatment, and that means advising people to pursue the methods that have the greatest chances of a successful outcome. The same as the GP will encourage a person to take their antibiotics regularily, at the correct times relating to meals, to finish the course, and to avoid anything, such as alcohol, that would inhibit their effectiveness or produce an undesirable side effect. All you've done with that last post was bandy around a few general accusations and then launch another attack based on facts taken out of context (easy to do). Soon you'll be resorting to 'playing Devils Advocate'... groan... zzz. So anyway... what's your problem? Really? Let's clear this up for once and for all without changing the subject. Please be specific. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 28th, 2005, 11:04am on 04/28/05 at 10:05:51, Bob P wrote:
These assumptions are based upon what is now almost 250 cases. Some people take our advice that we've learned by these accounts. Others just "eat a few shrooms" and take their chances because they don't want any advice. on 04/28/05 at 10:05:51, Bob P wrote:
One out of 250. Feel free to choose which side of the line to stand upon. Oh wait, you did choose. You chose not to take any advice from the Clusterbusters. Thats ok. How's the cycle doing? Ask yourself this question. (and I don't need or want to know the answer) Did you make choices about your health, based upon whether or not you like the people offering the advice? on 04/28/05 at 10:05:51, Bob P wrote:
Of course you know the answer to this question. Some people are putting their time and money where their mouths (keyboards) are to find out these answers. Until that time, yes, they are all just assumptions (theories) based upon growing anecdotal evidence. Other theories are based upon scientific facts. That still makes them only theories. Take it for what its worth. Suggestions made based upon these assumptions are giving people a better chance of success than they were having a few years ago before these assumptions were made. Good enough success so that now, as you well know, scientists are interested. I can assure you, the answers to the questions you ask are not as simple as anyone here has theorized. That does not mean the theories are wrong. So...if you want the answers, with scientifically proven explantions of these theories, feel free to speed up the process and make a donation to MAPS: http://www.maps.org/research/cluster/psilo-lsd/ |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 11:05am Quote:
You can just call me Redd..... ;) :-* |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 11:14am Pinkfloyd - this is the most impressive response I've ever seen on these boards. on 04/28/05 at 11:04:52, Pinkfloyd wrote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 11:31am Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 28th, 2005, 11:55am on 04/28/05 at 11:31:09, Bob P wrote:
No, I don't think I said that at all. I remarked that Dr. Sewell told you one out of 250 people reported better results with verapamil. But again, you knew that already. As to what brain chemicals were reset with the other 249.....I don't know bob, which ones of your's were reset when you used the shrooms while on verapamil. Your information will be helpful. Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 28th, 2005, 12:47pm I am neutral regarding the use of mushrooms, but I have read in this thread several posts about rearranged brain chemicals, but no one has defined what is meant by that: what chemicals, how are they rearranged, how was it determined that the chemicals were rearranged. I do not think that it is so easy to alter brain chemistry, especially in the long term (drinking excessive amounts of alcohol will due it, but once it is out of the system, things return to normal). I'm interested in knowing if anyone has had any tests done pre and post mushroom use that demonstrate any alterting of the bodies chemistry, be it brain or anywhere else. Interesting discussion here. By the way, I began taking Verapamil again a month ago (in the past neither it nor any other medication did anything to ease my pain or decrease the frequency or intensity of the attacks). I worked my way up to 240mg a day and have been on that amount for two weeks and have noticed a definite improvement-attacks are less frequent, don't last as long and I now have totally pain free periods lasting 6 hours or more, something that I have never had before. My neurologist and I agree that it is too early to tell if the Verapamil is the cause or if I am having a temporary remission, which I've had before. My fingers are crossed hoping that it is the Verapamil. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by LeeS on Apr 28th, 2005, 12:51pm On the earlier subject of abusing shrooms .... I would like to disagree. From my experience, episodic sufferers use the alternative treatment to stop a bout in the first place, and then prevent the next one from occurring (through a maintenance dose). Their goal is to stretch the period of time in between doses to the maximum - up to two years in some well known cases. One of the key problems is that because some episodics dislike dosing so much they do not take the maintenance dose, but most wish they had. Chronic sufferers use psilocybin to stop their incessant bout and hopefully become episodic. Thereafter, they similarly attempt to stretch the amount of time between dosing each time, hopefully as effectively as episodic 'busters'. In both cases the goal is to take less drugs not more! As a former chronic, I have now managed to stretch my dosing to once every three months or so, although it has taken nearly a year, and with much trial and tribulation. In all that time I have only heard of one clusterbuster out of many who has not been able to trust himself to use psilocybin recreationally (sorry, can't remember his name), but he had the good sense to seek alternative treatment. How are you doing Cynthy? -Lee |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 12:51pm on 04/28/05 at 11:31:09, Bob P wrote:
Anyway back to my question... tell us about your mother? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 12:55pm on 04/28/05 at 12:51:41, LeeS wrote:
Wow that's damn good going. I remember when you were struggling to last a week. Yours is a good example of what can be acheived with perseverance. I guess this means that, technically, you too are "No Longer Chronic". Please could you remind us of your status regarding detox, both past, at the onset of the treatment, and subsequently? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:03pm Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:05pm on 04/28/05 at 12:47:09, hdido wrote:
It was shown that using psilocybin or lsd caused a down-regulation in 5-HT2receptors in the dorsal raphe nucleus (brain) for at least several days following the dose. (This was not in cluster patients) I don't have the source for that handy, but I could find it if you want to see it. Of course very little is known about how it effects "brain chemicals" because research was practically banned in the 60's. The fact that a few doses (or 1) can stop clusters for weeks or months argues that it is changing brain chemistry. Quote:
Glad you're having luck. I hope it's the verap. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:13pm on 04/28/05 at 13:03:45, Bob P wrote:
DOH! Has it been scientifically demonstrated that during CH episodes certain neurotransmitters are increased / depleted? Answer YES. Did / Do I have CH? Answer YES. So is it likely that the levels of those neurotransmitters in my brain were affected by the CH, or potential the cause of / caused by the CH or the CH symtpoms? Answer YES. Did the shrooms halt my CH attacks and episodes on many occasions? Answer YES the evidence strongly supports this. So is it likely that the neurotransmitters in my brain remain at abnormal levels post this treatment? Answer NO. So would it be fair to HYPOTHESISE some link between taking shrooms and the levels of those neurotransmitters returning to their preferred state? Answer YES. It is FAIR to HYPOTHESISE that. So BobP - back to my orignal question which you have been doing your damndest to avoid answering? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:13pm inappropriate segue: imagine the old monty python sketch... "I'm no doctor!" And now for something completely different.... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:17pm So BobP - for the UGH, what, sixth time...? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by LeeS on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:18pm on 04/28/05 at 12:55:11, Flash wrote:
OK Flash, you asked for it, here's one I prepared earlier: Quote:
For further information, please just shout. -Lee |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:19pm Quote:
IMHO....Until further research is completed......the busters have to consider what works for the majority and the advice is provided accordingly. Granted there are exceptions, just like you pointed out. Just like there are exceptions with traditional meds. I suspect even after the study is completed.....there are still going to be exceptions to the norm......just like meds. But what I do appreciate about the work and the recommendations, is the blanket statement not to mix drugs and use the therapy "pure and alone". Mixing in other stuff may interfere or complicate matters, as is often the case with script meds (with one on top of the other and possibly more) This is a grass roots effort for sure, and until studies are complete, people are still in great pain, and are grasping for solutions, and a blanket statement like "stay off of all meds" lends far more substance than, well... with one patient has had luck with this med with therapy....so we recommend you try it too. Gotta stick with the majority here with the situation as we have it now......and the fact is that the success rate is far better without meds. Plain and simple. Quote:
IMHO....a statement with "abuse" used..even tho you did not state so and did not mean it in this text, MAY provide a misconception. And you have stated the plain and simple and nothing more part, there is still the possibility of a misconception there. For example, others reading this, MAY think.....OMG....if I try this therapy.....I'll get hooked on the stuff and it will lead to other drugs. Even tho you did not say this, some MAY catagorize the therapy in with addictive drugs like cocaine, crack or whatever. I would hate to think someone thought this way, totally closed their thoughts on entertaining the therapy, that would have found alot of relief with it. With the added bonus of staying off all the darned meds, and what these may or may not be doing to their bodies. Granted the same could be said with the therapy....but it is organic (a major plus in my mind) and leaves the system rather quickly (another plus) and the CH's for the majority are cut back drastically....I often wonder what damage an actual CH causes. Maybe this is the reason the big guy upstairs placed these odd little fungi on our earth, and other poisenous animals/plants are here too. It appears the scientific communities are seeing the same.....studies on the flowfish & toads for pain remedies- go figure. Maybe we do not need all the artificial man made meds...the answer has been there all the time...we just did not look at it that way and thought we were smarter with artificial substances. Time will tell.............. SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:21pm Quote:
Two pieces of mis-information there. First things first...altering brain chemistry is very simple. In Laymans terms.... You are not changing the chemical componant itself, however, you are altering the production of the chemical as it is released from brain cell neuron/the chemical reaction while in the synaps between nurons/ and the way in which the next neuron re-uptakes the chemical from the synaps into the neighboring cell. Any psycoactive chemical introduced into our bodies will alter this process. To what degree depends on it's psycoactive properties. Anything from eating chocolate which makes the brain produce higher levels of seritonin, to methelphenidates which cause the brain to produce higher levels of dopamine and the resulting reaction that turns it into norepinephrin at the synaps and then re-uptaken into the neighboring neuron and reformed back into dopamine. Second mis-conception. There is only one *drug* known that can and does cause permanent damage to the brain and that is alcohol. The brain is not able repair the damage that long term excessive consumption of alcohol does to it. If this was not true, then there would be no concern for fetal alcohol syndrom as the brains of babies would be able to repair the damage caused by the alcoholic mother. My suggestion is that you do some reading before spouting opinions and try to pass them off as facts. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:24pm on 04/28/05 at 13:18:47, LeeS wrote:
So in 10 months you would have anticipated 500-600 attacks and have instead experienced 100. And during the past 4 months you would have anticipated 240 attacks and have instead experienced 30, all at reasonably low level. And am I correct in thinking that you have also been keeping a diary during this entire period detailing each attack? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:42pm I am quite aware that brain chemistry can be altered by various substances and also quite aware that alcohol can cause permanent brain damage. To simplify my question: what chemicals are altered by use of the mushrooms, how do you know that this is occurring, to what degree are these chemicals altered, how do you know that the alteration has anything to do with CH and again, has anyone had any tests done to confirm the alterations with the use of mushrooms? You did not answer a single one of my questions and your response appeared to be quite hostile-is this the type of response one should expect for raising legitimate issues? Do you wish to "scare off" or stifle anyone who questions your opinion? I don't think that such an attitude will contribute to finding a solution to CH and I believe that you have abondoned objectivity and have your own personal agenda to push-that is sad. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:45pm Quote:
For everyone esle: I don't put down the treatment, I don't put down the study, I don't discourage others from trying the proceedure (shit, I transported umpteen doses to Atlanta for others to try and have supplied others in many ways), I'm grateful to see a clusterhead get relief in any way possible, I think the data gathering the Busters are doing is good work, Oh, yeah, and you're all a bunch of addicts. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by LeeS on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:48pm on 04/28/05 at 13:24:48, Flash wrote:
You're right on both counts Flash. I'm enjoying so much PF time that I only have to complete my diary when I get hit every now and then. I'm so 'anal' about it, that I've created a bar-chart that shows my progress since dosing - if I knew how, I'd post it here. May I take this opportunity to thank you and Bobw, and all the other busters for their help and consideration over the last ten months or so. My life has changed - just ask my wife and daughters. -Lee |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:49pm on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
I can ask all the same question about the verapamil you're using. Do you have any answers? Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 1:59pm on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
I'm not pushing an agenda... The exact mechanism by which the indol-ring chemicals work is what is going to be studied and mapped out threw the Harvard research. All that has been presented by the Busters thus far is educated hypothisis based on past (unfinished) research and personal experience, and anecdotal evidence. If there was not some basis to this, Harvard would not be trying to get this research underway. PLEASE allow the scientists to find out by which mechinism this stuff works. All the Busters are saying right now in a nut shell is that it appears to work and at a rate of success higher than any conventional treatment on the market right now to not only ease the suffering, but break a cycle and even prevent the onset of cycles. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on Apr 28th, 2005, 2:03pm Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 2:14pm on 04/28/05 at 13:45:00, Bob P wrote:
Bob - While your perception MAY BE that I have been passing of my musings as factual, that was certainly never my intention. I've always ENDEAVOURED to use terms such as "I think", "perhaps", "it could be", "possibly", "potentially", "it looks like", "in my opinion", "my guess is", etc... I CANNOT RECALL ever reading a post by any of the loose and largely unofficial collective that is Clusterbusters and GOTTEN THE IMPRESSION that they were implying hard facts. In fact - this may come as a surprise - but many people go by different names in the Clusterbusters forum, so IN MOST INSTANCES I have no idea who is a 'Buster' and who is not. From now on, just for your benefit I INTEND to highlight any words, especially ADJECTIVES whose omission or oversight MAY cause you interpretation problems. In future please pay close attention to those words. Unfortunately I don't have time to go back and highlight them in all of my previous posts. So IF that is your beef with Clusterbusters then I HOPE that PERHAPS you'll CONSIDER that you MAY have been at least PARTIALLY to blame regarding your interpretation. Of course, IN MY EXPERIENCE, how a person FEELS about another person MAY often COLOUR their interpretation of that persons words. So PERSONALLY I am no convinced that this is REALLY the underlying problem! |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 2:31pm OK I've TRIED to answer all your questions. (Note for BobP: these answers SHOULD not be CONSIDERED factual!) on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
We don't know but IT LOOKS LIKE Serotonin is one of them. on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
We don't. But the absence of CH in so many people is a strong INDICATOR. on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
We have no idea. They MAY not even be altered at all. on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
NOT SURE I understand this question. Someone else MAY have to answer it. But TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE scientific research has established that people suffering from CH exhibit UNUSUAL levels of certain NEURTOTRANSMITTERS whilst SYMPTOMATIC. I cannot remember which specific ones but am REASONABLY sure serotonin is one of them. on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
No, but PERHAPS SOME PEOPLE myself included THOUGHT they had already answered them. Also you omitted to put question marks so SOME people MAY have assumed you were simply making a statement. on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
No, only not a very nice persons who are hell bent on causing trouble for THEIR own agenda. on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
Please could you cite specific examples to support this? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 2:44pm Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 28th, 2005, 2:58pm on 04/28/05 at 14:44:23, Bob P wrote:
You answered one question, which I can also answer for psilocin. Psilocin is a 5-ht2 receptor agonist that acts by stimulating the 5-ht2 receptors in the dorsal raphe nucleus causing an eventual down regulation of 5-ht2 receptors. Unfortunately neither has anything to do with clusters. Quote:
Yes it does. There are plenty of calcium channels on neurons and verapamil is one drug used to block calcium transport in neurons for academic purposes. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 28th, 2005, 3:02pm BobP wrote: " Oh, yeah, and you're all a bunch of addicts." Yes! We are!!! "Hello, my name is Rex and I'm addicted to Cluster Headaches. I couldn't kick the habit no matter what I tried. That until I discovered Clusterbusters.com." Seriously Bob, I hope you realize how ridiculous that statement is! You're joking, right? Addicted to psilocybin? Would you be willing to make that statement in front of a doctor that specializes in addiction? I believe there's more of a chance of being addicted to Twinkies than mushrooms.... LMAO!!!! ;;D Thanks for the laugh though... I have tears in my eyes! Unless you were serious of course, but I don't think you're that stupid.... I feel great today! PF Vibes to all... not matter how you achieve that! Recreational Abusive and Addicted REX ;) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 28th, 2005, 3:15pm on 04/28/05 at 14:44:23, Bob P wrote:
It's OK Bob, you can dispense with the highlighting, the rest of us are perfectly capable of accurate interpretation and comprehension. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 3:46pm Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 28th, 2005, 3:56pm BobP wrote: But I do seriously believe that clusterheads have more of an addictive personality than the general population. ------------------------------------------------------------------- And that's based on... what? I really don't understand your point still... I've noticed that the term "addiction" is use very losely in the US. I've also noticed that you've avoided answering a lot of questions that people asked you. See Flash's posts... Are you addicted to avoiding questions? ;;D What is your beef with clusterbusters? I'm truly sorry about the treatment not working for you and even more sorry that you're back on meds. I mean that... But what is the problem? There are all kind of addictions in this world. But to come here and saying that people are abusing the treatment without mentioning any names... is like invading a country under the assumption that they have weapons of mass destructions... You know there are some boards for "recreational users" and "mushrooms abusers" online... You should go there and pick on them, they're not doing it for relief.... Please enlighten me.... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 28th, 2005, 4:04pm on 04/28/05 at 15:46:54, Bob P wrote:
After all that heat you been putting on these guys to cough up FACTS you roll out that one. Did you just put that one out there to stir up the conversation again or do you have anything beyond anectdotal data? All this focus on addiction in our country, especially in the addiction-world (veiled reference to AA), would lead us to eventually question the difference between our addiction to food and the need to eat and the role that our Mom's played when they first got us started "eating". And then that whole dependence on air, and the role that that first doctor played when he smacked our ass to kick start the lungs at birth. Repetitive behavior does not = Addiction |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by nani on Apr 28th, 2005, 4:05pm on 04/28/05 at 15:56:05, rextangle wrote:
On that note...does anyone know of a good chocolate rehab center? ::) ;;D |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 28th, 2005, 4:22pm Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 28th, 2005, 4:30pm Still avoiding answers... but I'm answering yours The active compound found in organic sources of hallucinogens are alkaloids that closely resemble the chemical structure of brain chemicals like the neurotransmitter seratonin, binding to seratonin receptor sites in the brain (2). LSD and the newer synthetic alkaloids and tryptamines too resemble these compounds, but are manufactured in pharmaceutical labs both licitly and illicitly. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on Apr 28th, 2005, 4:56pm on 04/28/05 at 16:22:06, Bob P wrote:
That's between you and Flash. I don't personally subscribe to that hypothesis. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on Apr 28th, 2005, 6:03pm on 04/28/05 at 15:46:54, Bob P wrote:
I have agree with Bop P on this one. I've been reading this board for a number of years and have seen a lot of messages about peoples addictions and habits. And I'm not just talking about the "sin" addictions i.e. drinking, smoking, gambling, drugs. The addictions may be soft drinks or coffee. It can be a persons work or a hobby they enjoy to extreem. Maybe the "need" to visit this site every day or many times a day. Just my 2 cents worth. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 6:24pm on 04/28/05 at 18:03:24, BobG wrote:
That could be a chicken and egg debate as well Bob. There is plenty of evidence that people who have conditions that go un-diagnosed tend to find ways of self medicating, which sets up for a vicious cycle. Adults with ADHD are notorious for it. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Jonny on Apr 28th, 2005, 6:39pm on 04/28/05 at 18:24:15, Redd715 wrote:
ADHD is a bunch of bullshit, show me one test that will tell if someone has it. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 6:51pm on 04/28/05 at 18:39:46, Jonny wrote:
Just as with CH Jonny...CH is the manifestation of particular patterns of symptoms, but in the case of ADHD it is specific patterns of behaviors. Threw research it was shown that ADHD can be diagnosed threw PET scans showing the lowered activity in the frontal and pre frontal lobes of ADHD patiens, however, as a routine diagnostic tool it is not cost effective. http://www.radiology-info.org/nuclear-medicine-positron-emission-tomography/adhd-pet-scan.html This was the first artical that popped up on the scan tech. of theis but I also have a number of hard copy articals from the AMA Journals that I've had for 12 years since my son was diagnosded with the disorder. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Jonny on Apr 28th, 2005, 7:13pm http://www.cchr.org/topics/family/adhd/information/ " this disorder is found to be present in males more than females. A disorder that was first described in 1845 by the physician, Dr. Heinrich Hoffman, medical acknowledgement of ADHD came slow." 1845? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 7:22pm I don't disagree that there are too many blatant and fivolous diagnosis going on. There IS a test for it, and criteria that needs to be met to confim a diagnosis. Just because people choose not to believe it is not proof that there isn't, or that ADHD is not a valid disorder. People choose to believe Elvis isn't dead too. There is no difinative test to diagnose CH. So are we to say that CH doesn't exsist and is BS too? I love a healthy debate. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by eyes_afire on Apr 28th, 2005, 7:23pm on 04/28/05 at 13:42:54, hdido wrote:
Hi hdido, Perhaps these links will provide some specifics: http://www.stainblue.com/cubensis.html http://www.stainblue.com/ah.html http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_faq.shtml#4 http://www.psychedelic-library.org/child6.htm It is believed that psilocin may mimic serotonin or DMT. Specifically (from StainBlue): "Psilocybin and psilocin are noteworthy in that their molecular structures are very similar to chemicals present in the human brain. Psilocin, for example, differs from the human neurotransmitter serotonin (designated 5-hydroxytryptamine) [Figure 5] by only one hydroxy molecule. In this respect, the mushrooms are mirror images of the human brain. Psilocybin is the phosphoric acid ester of psilocin and is the only known indole derivative occurring in nature that contains this novel phosphoric acid radical. The phosphoric acid is considered "dead weight" and does not contribute to the compound's psychedelic effects. Its presence does, however, stabilize the compound. Conversely, psilocin, which lacks this phosphoric radical, is extremely unstable and sensitive to oxidation. It is 1.4 times as active as psilocybin, a ratio corresponding to the molecular weights of the compounds. Psilocin is the "Rolls-Royce" of psychedelics." Synthetic psilocybin analogs CEY-19 and CZ-74 were used in psychotherapy clinical trials. Not surprising that most of the newer anti-depressants are serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Additionally, the beneficial action of imitrex is theoretically based on the same principles (I'm of the opinion that it is not the vasoconstriction that provides relief when using imitrex, but rather the effect on the 5HT receptors). Some of the early studies with LSD and Psilocybin provided some of the the groundwork for classes of medicines like SSRI's. Of course, one problem is that most clusterheads have no success using SSRI's. The serotonin hypotheses are not 'cut-and-dry'. Perhaps psilocybin's affect on DMT is more important? We really don't know for sure. The chemistry of psilocybin is not new. I'm sure there's many more specifics in the literature. Much of brain chemistry is theoretical by necessity. How would we know for sure how the psilocybin (or many other brain chemicals) works?: 1. Abduct one clusterhead and dose them with mushrooms. 2. Kill the clusterhead. 3. Dissect the brain and if you're lucky you may be able to find some clues... maybe. (I'm not trying to be a wiseass... I'm serious... how else would we really know). The true chemists around here can help correct any mistakes I've typed. Hopefully, this helps. --- Steve |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Jonny on Apr 28th, 2005, 8:07pm Hey Redd, Nice tits :-* |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Redd715 on Apr 28th, 2005, 8:52pm on 04/28/05 at 20:07:03, Jonny wrote:
::) :-* |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by hdido on Apr 28th, 2005, 9:15pm Thank you Steve (eye afire)-great answer, gave me good info.-HD |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by pinksharkmark on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:54am on 04/28/05 at 08:31:17, Bob P wrote:
Yes, that is how Flash discovered they were an effective treatment for his cluster headaches. Please explain how that shows Flash is one of those you claim went from using psychedelics to treat his CH to using psychedelics for fun. Quote:
If by that you mean that I expressed my enthusiasm for the process of growing psilocybin-bearing mushrooms, I won't deny it. I found tinkering with agar isolation of mycelial strains and various growing and selection techniques interesting and -- *gasp* -- even fun, and I did spend quite a bit of time a couple years back experimenting with various growing techniques. Growing them and eating them are two different things, however. In the past three decades I have consumed mushrooms on just two occasions -- a series of around half a dozen doses spaced roughly five days apart in the winter of 2001 in order to shut down a well-established CH cycle, and a single dose of about 1.3 dry grams in late June of 2003 to head off at the pass a newly-developing CH cycle. Both attempts were outstanding successes, by the way, thanks for asking. In the interest of full disclosure I should note that being a wimp I didn't have the willpower to make it through my 2001 attempt completely unmedicated -- the first dose was taken while I was still in the process of tapering from a prednisone burst, and between some of the subsequent doses I treated some of the breakthrough CH with first injectable Imitrex (a third of a stat dose each time) then later Fiorinal C, then finally ginger tea. In retrospect, I think it likely that if I had been med-free at the outset, I would have required fewer doses to kill that cycle. I admit there is no way of proving that, however. The last batch of mushrooms I grew was harvested in the spring of 2003. Thanks for reminding me, Bob -- time for me to grow a fresh batch. Please explain how my past enthusiasm for cultivation of mushrooms shows I am one of those you claim went from using psychedelics to treat his CH to using psychedelics for fun. pinky |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 29th, 2005, 9:40am You're a sharp guy Mark. You must realize that in any population, with any substance there will be abusers. To think that among all the clusterheads using shrooms to treat their clusters, there are none who are/will abuse the treatment is out of character. Heck, even the doctor running the study, Halpern, is a psychiatrist specializing in substance abuse. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on Apr 29th, 2005, 9:50am on 04/29/05 at 09:40:54, Bob P wrote:
quite an astute observation... though they are using some of these substances to TREAT addictions, like to alcohol. They are NOT studying the addiction problems (or lack of them) of Psilocybin and LSD, because there aren't any. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 29th, 2005, 9:58am Speaking of the doctors, is Sewell new to McLean? All the info I find is from the UK and Sewell is no where to be found on the McLean site. I think Sewell doubles as a neuro. Probably also ought to start calling the shroom/LSD study since that's what MAPs calls it: "Starting in October 2004, after the MDMA/cancer anxiety study has hopefully been fully approved, Dr. Halpern and Dr. Andrew Sewell will start work on protocol design for a pilot study to examine LSD and psilocybin as treatments for cluster headaches, an excruciating condition that is difficult to treat. MAPS has recently been contacted by a cluster headache patient advocate who indicated that there were about 80 case reports of cluster headache sufferers who have broken a cluster headache cycle with the administration of two doses of psilocybin or LSD, about a week apart. Furthermore, this treatment seems to prevent/delay the reoccurance of cluster headaches for a significant amount of time. This study, if approved, will renew the study of LSD in humans. At present and for about the last 20 years, there has been no clinical research with LSD conducted anywhere in the world. MAPS has been sent a donation of $50,000 for this research from David and Marsha Weil. They hope that their donation will enable MAPS to obtain an equal amount in matching grants from other donors." |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on Apr 29th, 2005, 9:58am here's a bit of trivia for you. (totally off topic) Guess what herb is used to treat alcoholism? Kudzu, that's what. Betcha not everyone knows that. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by ozzy on Apr 29th, 2005, 9:59am Let me interrupt this scheduled I would like to ask all of you to head over to Justin's page on the CH documentary, watch the video and recognize yourself (each one of us, that is) in the interviews and doctor's description. Don't just watch it. Absorbe it. Then see if you feel like arguing any more. Website: http://homepage.mac.com/justinott/Clusterheads.htm Video: http://homepage.mac.com/justinott/ClusterheadsClip.htm Ozzy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 29th, 2005, 10:24am I still feel like arguing. It's Friday. Always a good day to rouse the rabel. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by pinksharkmark on Apr 29th, 2005, 2:36pm on 04/29/05 at 09:40:54, Bob P wrote:
So you do not have any evidence for your unsupported allegation, but instead are assuming there just must be some who have turned from using it as a treatment to "abusing" (your word) it, so see nothing wrong with presenting your speculation as fact. I thought as much. Flash and I don't agree on everything regarding this treatment, but he certainly hit the nail on the head with his first response to you. You really are stooping to a new low and it saddens me. Now that we've cleared that up, let me get this thread back on track. Cynthy, any news? You are one of the few people trying LSD who has given us fairly detailed reports and I look forward to your next post. pinky |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 29th, 2005, 2:50pm Nice try Mark but I still am not giving out names. You know who we're talking about anyway. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 29th, 2005, 2:55pm on 04/29/05 at 09:58:40, Margi wrote:
My interest in drinking didn't wane in the least the whole time I took Kudzu. But, it was CH that keeps me from drinking anything in cycle. So, it may treat it, but it doesn't stop the user from wanting a "treat" in the form of a big frosty mug of Molson Canadian. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on Apr 29th, 2005, 3:19pm Scott, kudzu is the natural form of antabuse (or maybe its structure is what antabuse was based on, I don't know). I'm betting that had you had anything to drink while using kudzu, the effects wouldn't have been pretty. You most probably would have spent some time praying to the big white porcelain god. That's the way it affects most people, from what I've read. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 29th, 2005, 3:48pm on 04/29/05 at 09:40:54, Bob P wrote:
There's also people that shoot compressed air up their arseholes. on 04/29/05 at 09:40:54, Bob P wrote:
LMAO you know better than that. As previously stated on several occasions the reason that the study is being conducted by these guys is that their already familiar with LSD and psilocybin, and have already conducted research using those drugs to treat people for addictions. Got any more cheap shits and misinformation for us. Let's get it all out of the way on this thread. Oh and um... were you stating that as a fact by any chance, or was it just a classic example of negative spin by missing out THE crucial bit of information? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on Apr 29th, 2005, 3:52pm Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, this is getting kind of old. I guess you guys can go on believing that no shroomheads ever use for non-medical reasons and I'll go on knowing they do. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by pinksharkmark on Apr 29th, 2005, 3:55pm on 04/29/05 at 14:50:26, Bob P wrote:
You mean other than my name and Flash's name -- both of which were inapplicable to your unsupported allegation? My latest response wasn't an attempt to draw you into revealing names. It's apparent to the readers of this thread you have no names to reveal in any case -- you are just "playing the odds" that somewhere out there some clusterhead must be munching shrooms and acid for kicks. I've given up any expectation you will retract your completely unfounded assertion. It just isn't in you. Quote:
Actually, Bob, I have no idea whatsoever who you're talking about. It is obvious you don't either. There's no need for me (or anyone else) to embarass you further on this point. I suggest we return to discussing Cynthy's experiment. pinky |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 29th, 2005, 3:58pm on 04/29/05 at 15:19:17, Margi wrote:
Not so. After I thought my cycle might had closed, and I was still taking Kudzu, I did have beers one night and wine on another. No problemo. Just a kudzu old wive's tale me thinks. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:01pm on 04/29/05 at 14:50:26, Bob P wrote:
Well Bob you're certainly better informed than I am cos this is the first I've heard of it. I guess your plan here is to convince people that one of the clusterbusters has become addicted to shrooms, and even as we speak is on the prowl, muggin old ladies and stealing car stereos to raise cash for more compost. Oooh the dangers of taking 1/4g of dried shrooms every year!!! They'll probably graduate to crack within a few scant weeks, and before you know it will be promoting crack as a cure for CH, and selling it to clusterheads on-line... or worse still the children of clusterheads. Pretty soon society will collapse. If only we'd listened to you the world could have been saved. Da da da DA DA DA. Da da DOH! Do you really seriously expect is to believe that despite you obvious loathing for everyone associated with Clusterbusters, that out of some sort of social conscience, you've decided to voluntarily withhold this persons name? So please go ahead and name them. We're all waiting with baited breath! What's stopping you? I'm sure they won't mind. Personally I'm desperate to see what a shroom junkie looks like. Hang on, who? Oh Fortean Times! So you plan to feature this in your next edition? Any word on Ripley's Believe It or Not? yet? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by nani on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:04pm Kudzu is a treatment for alcohol recovery. The blend I'm taking supports alcohol recovery, but my guess is you have to want to quit. The herbs may help with cravings. I'm not much of a drinker to begin with, but on kudzu I had no desire to drink when I normally would have. CINDY....how's it going, hun? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:05pm sorry to interrupt the brouhaha here ... I've just gone back and read Cynthy's post and can't answer a question I have. (Believe me, it's no small task trying to separate the wheat from the chafe in this thread!) All she says is that she took a "small dose". So, is it the same guidelines for acid that it is for shrooms? 1/4 recreational dose and detox first? Do we know? Cynthy, if you're still out there...are you still experiencing success? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:14pm Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! Do too! Do not! |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by rextangle on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:18pm This is my last post on this dumb fucking thread... BobP, I realized that you have one thing in commun with the beast: YOU HATE MUSHROOMS!!!! ;;D So long, Rex |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:19pm on 04/29/05 at 15:52:12, Bob P wrote:
Did you actually read my post? YES HALPERN IS A PSYCHIATRIST WHO SPECIALISES IN SUBSTANCE ABUSE. ABSOLUTELY FUCKIN SPOT ON! Now here's the information that you failed to include. Try reading it carefully: New Scientist - 26th February 2005 Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving 26 February 2005 From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. John Horgan John Horgan is a freelance science writer based in Garrison, New York. JOHN HALPERN clearly remembers what made him change his mind about psychedelic drugs. It was the early 1990s and the young medical student at a hospital in Brooklyn, New York, was getting frustrated that he could not do more to help the alcoholics and addicts in his care. He sounded off to an older psychiatrist, who mentioned that LSD and related drugs had once been considered promising treatments for addiction. "I was so fascinated that I did all this research," Halpern recalls. "I was reading all these papers from the 60s and going, whoa, wait a minute! How come nobody's talking about this?" More than a decade later, Halpern is now an associate director of substance abuse research at Harvard University's McLean Hospital and is at the forefront of a revival of research into psychedelic medicine. He recently received approval from the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to give late-stage cancer patients the psychedelic drug MDMA, also known as ecstasy. He is also laying the groundwork for testing LSD as a treatment for dreaded super-migraines known as cluster headaches. And Halpern is not alone. Clinical trials of psychedelic drugs are planned or under way at numerous centres around the world for conditions ranging from anxiety to alcoholism. It may not be long before doctors are legally prescribing hallucinogens for the first time in decades. "There are medicines here that have been overlooked, that are fundamentally valuable," says Halpern. He is also interested in the potential benefits of the true hallucinogens. In 1996, he reviewed almost 100 substance abuse trials involving LSD, psilocybin, DMT and ibogaine, an extract of the African shrub Tabernanthe iboga. Halpern found tentative evidence that the drugs can reduce addicts' cravings during a post-trip "afterglow" lasting for a month or two. Exactly how this happens is something of a mystery. A popular theory is that the benefits stem from the drugs' psychological effects, which include profound insights and cathartic emotions, but Halpern suspects that there may be a biochemical explanation too. For now, however, Halpern isn't planning to pursue addiction therapy. He is more interested in another medical use for LSD and psilocybin: treating a debilitating condition known as cluster headaches. These attacks appear to be caused by swelling of blood vessels in the brain and are worse than migraines. Sufferers say the pain exceeds that of passing a kidney stone or giving birth without anaesthetics. They affect about 3 in every 1000 people sporadically, and 1 in 10,000 chronically. "There's a tremendous potential need for this," says Halpern, who investigated the problem after being approached by a patient group. Here's the link in case you think I made it all up: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524881.400 Bob - You are due everyone on this board an appology for your misinformation and malicious negative spin. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Jonny on Apr 29th, 2005, 4:24pm Dance Monkey's....LMMFAO ;;D |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by cynthy on Apr 30th, 2005, 6:22pm Wow, haven't been here in a couple days (not one of my addictions, lol) great debate, but have nothing to contribute but the facts of my experience. I was 4 days pf except for 2 minor shadows, since then have been hit every day, twice at work, and from 3 to 5 hits waking me up, the intensity has increased as the duration, 02 is the only abortive that i am using. as for addiction,, not sure, but don't you have to like the way you feel to want to do this over and over again ? personally I could do without the 12 hours of being absolutely useless. the only addiction I have are my cigatettes and yes I enjoy smoking, oh yes lets not forget addiction to working,I like a roof over my head, and gardening-- relaxing photography-relaxing golfing-relaxing must be addicted to relaxing,, thats so lame ! still trying to get the farm together, someone asked a question regarding the amount of the hit,, actually I don't know, because its from the street, I just cut the blotter, I agree that growing your own shrooms is safer, I chose this at this time, desperation, I'd had enough and didn't want to wait to grow my own, I have known about this alternative for a very long time, but its a treatment you have to be ready to try. matter of fact I have spores in my closet since 2003 still in the box , never even opened it, just wasn't ready then, but then again, that is when I started on the prednisone, so I was about 70% pain free, and thought life was good, now you guys keep up the great debate, must be an addiction lol cindy |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 30th, 2005, 8:51pm on 04/30/05 at 18:22:54, cynthy wrote:
This is interesting because it seems to have the abililty to travel freely throughout the brain, like a master key, affecting areas of vision, hearing, feeling, thought processes and heightening them to a level sometimes beyond what we may feel control over. Having the ability to effect "deep brain penetration", perhaps to the hypothalmus, ignoring normal sleep and eating cycles. This is just my uneducated observation, but in this case, while it was "in there", a four day reprieve was realized. I am not condoning the how and where it was obtained, but just find the fact that when it fully was worked out of the system, the brain reverted to its normal cluster condition that would exist without a preventative, but it was able to change those conditions while present in the brain... somehow. I see where this is a difficult study. Tampering like that would need more knowledge and to change it to a safe form, to be possibly strictly controlled, seems an immense hurdle, nonetheless worthy of study though. This is a touchy one but what did it change and how did it change things to elude the cluster conditions? Rehashing the old, the drug was first synthesized in 1938 by Albert Hofmann while working for Sandoz Pharmaceuticals in Switzerland, Dr Max Rinkel introduced it to the states in 1949 and is known for his experimenting at Boston Psycopathic Hospital in 1957. More recently Alexander Shulgin (Sasha) was a brilliant academic with a fistful of patents and papers to his credit, a former instructor at the University Of California at Berkley and a consultant for the National Institute of Health, NASA, and the DEA. For 20 years he possessed a rare license to manufacture any illegal drug, also carrying a double life. After nearly achieving the movement's goal of establishing MDMA as a psychotheraputic medicine, he suffered a crushing defeat when MDMA slipped through his hands to the street; his reputation destroyed and being exiled to the margins of his field, but still laboring in private creating more than 100 molecules that produce altered states of consciousness, a kind of Einstein of pharmacology. (I question the parallel) and yet a ghost of history due to government suppression for the leading psychedelic chemist. I must note he has physical problems due to his ethical imperative to sample his drugs before giving to anyone. The interesting part, he has books, "PIHKAL: A Chemical Love Story and TIHKAL: The Continuation" Acronyms: "Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved" and Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved" Shulgin could explain the the basic chemistry and effects of his new molecules. For instance, short, mild, emotional, and made notes to record the results. He has many creations lying beyond the master chemist's reach. Psychedelics are the most pharmacologically complex compounds known, labs that have turned out new ones are few, Sandoz of Switzerland being one other than Shugin's. For his process he orders pure seratonin from a supplier in Japan, honing the seratonin into a precursor to a psychodelic. He refers to the great unknown of biochemistry: the relationship between the shape and weight of a molecule and its effect on the mind. Altering one carbon atom can change effects dramatically. How, nobody knows and in ways that are not fully understood. Seeing a particular structure in his present study of a cactus juice, he replicated the product and glued it onto an existing tryptamine, a class of molecules that includes psychodelics and melatonin. A few years ago, Dr. John Halpern invited him to give a lecture to the psychiatry faculty. "The idea of developing (Sasha's) stuff into medicines is a daunting task," mentions Halpern and reacted initially in the past: "It would take years and about a hundred million dollars to do the clinical studies on just one of his drugs, and he has hundreds of them. We don't even have all the answers for LSD let alone his stuff. So I think it will be decades before this work will be even looked at, maybe longer. It appears something interesting has changed Dr. Halpern's perspective, perhaps a technological improvement or as Flash mentioned him quoting, "due to fundamental value." Just rambling. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on Apr 30th, 2005, 9:15pm A final note I could not fit in. Dr. Alexander Shulgin will not work with anyone he does not know. He has no staff or junior chemists. "It would be nice if they washed the dishes for me," he says, "but they'd really just be a kind of distraction." My best hopes to McLean. Kevin M *additionally, Dr. Shulgin attended Harvard on a full scholarship at age 16. At his first job at Dow Chemical, he was told to find a way to deal with the company's excess inventory. "If you put a phosphate down here and put a carbonate up there, you have a physostigmine," he said, and when "what is that?" emerged from his supervisors, he said it is the world's first biodegradable pesticide. Dow made a fortune, spawning an entire line still in use. After a ban on psychodelics (1970, and the subsequent Controlled Substances Act), he continued to keep the ball rolling with a steady stream of journal articles in "Nature". On August 24, 1984 Shulgin wrote the DEA to say that MDMA, because of its "medical utility" ought to be placed under the less restrictive Schedule III so research could continue. The DEA's chief administrative judge, Justice Francis Young, agreed. A month later, the head of the DEA, John Lawn overruled and placed it under Schedule I. Interestingly, Dr. Lester Grinspoon, a noted Harvard University drug historian, won a case against the DEA in federal court on the grounds that the administrator had improperly ignored MDMA's medical potential. However, John Lawn rescheduled it under a new rationale. In 1986 Congress passed the Analog Act, outlawing newly created drugs if they resembled the chemical structure of a scheduled drug. Two years later, Dr Shulgin wrote "Controlled Substances: A Chemical and Legal Guide to Federal Drug Laws", which is the standard reference for DEA officials. Dr. Shulgin was blacklisted and his papers are no longer accepted for publication. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 1st, 2005, 6:40pm Cynthy, Do you have any acid left and do you have access to a UV lamp. In terms of dosage you need about 1/4 of a typical street hit. The problem is that what constitutes a street hit varies in intensity. The typical street hit equates to about 1/3 - 1/2 of the maximum effective dose, meaning the dose required to reach a level 5 experience. Does you blotter have seartions denoting the individual hits? The UV lamp will come in really handy here because it should expose the location and size of the individual drops of acid on the blotter. From this and the piece you used last time you should be able to ascertain how to slice it up. Use a craft knife or a scalpel. The 1/4 of a hit will be much less noticable. In fact you should be able to function reasonably normally or at least to approximate it. This time though take careful note, and try reducing the dose further if necessary. The best option is to dose once every 7 days. Another option is to take very small doses like 1/8th of the standard hit say twice a day... however it is very hard to cut up the blotter that small LOL. Hope this advice helps, and here's hoping you get you're shrooms up and running soon. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by pinksharkmark on May 2nd, 2005, 2:54pm I don't know how they prepare blotter in the UK, but in the US the "drop" method of manufacturing sheets hasn't been used in quite a while. Now the entire sheet is equally permeated with LSD solution. This makes the preparation of fractional doses simpler. pinky |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 3rd, 2005, 6:08am Sorry so powerful was the craving that it's been 11 years since I last saw any. Not sure if I can take much more of this cold turkey... must... get... acid... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on May 3rd, 2005, 8:54am hahahahahaha Flash, do we need an intervention? hahahahahaha On a more serious note . . . we are VERY greatful that you were willing to share what you had found out and believed would work for other clusterheads (hallucinogens), and also to pinky for being willing to try it, and then helping you spread the word . . . .I KNOW, without a doubt, that we would not be living a p/f life right now . . . and that D very well may not have survived another slam in his cycle like the one that brought me to this board a little over a year ago .. .Thanks to you two, and all of the other busters who have been so generous with their time and help. *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by sheff on May 3rd, 2005, 5:09pm My episode should be starting about this time and I've felt it coming on recently. After 12 years of having crap Mays and Junes and spending over 900 euros (about 600 pounds) every year on medication, I went to good old Holland and got my stuff at the weekend, 35 grams fresh for 10 euros. Made the tea last night, about 1g dried. Now if I do not get an episode this year, then I'll be praising God more than I did last night 8) And if it doesn't work then at least I'll have tried it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on May 3rd, 2005, 7:38pm on 05/03/05 at 17:09:45, sheff wrote:
[smiley=thumb.gif] |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 4th, 2005, 5:57am on 05/03/05 at 17:09:45, sheff wrote:
Perfect. I take it you are not currently on any other meds then? 1g dried as a preventative should do the trick. Worst case scenario the episode will attempt a second bite at the cherry in 6-8 weeks. Just does again as soon as you feel a twinge. Never had one come back a third time. Most die on the first strike. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by sheff on May 4th, 2005, 2:03pm on 05/04/05 at 05:57:01, Flash wrote:
No, I decided not to start on verapamil in order to try the mushrooms. So I should probably take another shot in a three months at first, yeah? Then after a year every six months. Not counting my chickens, however. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 4th, 2005, 2:47pm Quote:
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on May 4th, 2005, 4:33pm Quote:
Good choice IMHO. Better to stay off of everything than risk the chance of blocking or inhibiting something. This way, you can judge a success and what exactly did it. SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 5th, 2005, 6:18am on 05/04/05 at 14:47:59, Bob P wrote:
Bob - Did you read and digest this: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524881.400 yet? Do you have any other questions for us? How about you answer my original question: on 04/28/05 at 09:45:03, Flash wrote:
Come on you've had almost a week to think about it! Oh wait - it's OK I found your answer right here: on 04/27/05 at 14:46:59, Marc Kurth on http://www.calouch.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi wrote:
on 04/28/05 at 01:55:01, BobP on http://www.calouch.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi wrote:
Oh and remember BobP (not so) secretly wants to be President of OUCH now and represent us all. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 5th, 2005, 6:33am Yep, read that a long time ago, when the names of the shroom psychiatrists were first announced. If you'd read the thread you'll find I answered all your questions. Even complimented them as being good questions. (push) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 5th, 2005, 6:54am on 05/05/05 at 06:33:22, Bob P wrote:
Just to set the record straight once more: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v14n1-html/mdmapsilo.html "Our other exciting news to report is the addition of a post-doc fellow in our laboratory: Dr. Andrew Sewell, who will start work this fall. Dr. Sewell is one of only about 100 physicians in the U.S. to complete a dual-residency in psychiatry and neurology. Dr. Sewell and I have an important opportunity to explore whether or not LSD and/or psilocybin offers prophylaxis against cluster headache. There are some medications that do help stop this type of headaches, but they are not fully effective for many and there are no medications on the market that can actually prevent the cycling course of cluster-type headaches." Now the way I interpret this is that Dr Sewell has very impressive credentials. I'd also like to point out that a psychiatrist is also an MD and thus a fully trained and qualified doctor. Now Bob I'm struggling to believe that you never stumbled accross that page. See that is the very page that comes up if you click the link from the MAPS website to the CH related research. Anything else, or will that be it for the time being? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 5th, 2005, 8:25am Again Flash, if you were reading this thread, you would see in one of my posts a few pages back that I said I thought Sewell doubled in neurology. Why do you dig so hard to try to make me wrong? (push) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 5th, 2005, 8:54am on 05/05/05 at 08:25:24, Bob P wrote:
So let's just get this straight Bob, you: Now accept that the research is planned to be conducted at a reputable establishment. Yes/No? Now accept that the Doctors conducting the research are reputable and have suitable credentials. Yes/ No? Now accept that one of these researchers is familiar with shrooms and LSD because he's been researching using them to treat drug and alcohol additiction. Yes/No? Are now fully up to speed with the subtle differences between a hypothesis, a theory, and a fact. Yes/ No? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 5th, 2005, 9:41am So let's just get this straight Bob, you: Now accept that the research is planned to be conducted at a reputable establishment. Yes/No? Always have. Now accept that the Doctors conducting the research are reputable and have suitable credentials. Yes/ No? Always have accepted that they are fully qualified to review the answers to the buster survey, the medical records of those involved, and write a paper about the review. Now accept that one of these researchers is familiar with shrooms and LSD because he's been researching using them to treat drug and alcohol additiction. Yes/No? Never questioned that. Are now fully up to speed with the subtle differences between a hypothesis, a theory, and a fact. Yes/ No? Always have been which is why I question and challenge when they are presented in a different light. Your need to ask these questions tells me that you have made a lot of assumptions about me over time. (push) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 5th, 2005, 10:19am on 05/05/05 at 09:41:15, Bob P wrote:
You make it sound like you're some sort of crusader for all that is true and right in the world, but in my experience you just go out to cause trouble regardless of how anything is presented. What you do is easy. To me it just looks like self gratification. It's much harder to do something constructive. You do not even have the willpower to abstain from one treatment whilst 'testing' another... yet that does not stop you from chalking both up as failures. How scientific is that? Doh! You are what failed. There are people here, and I'm not just talking about Clusterbusters, that are genuinely striving to find new treatments, and not without some success. Your methods are not helping. If you cannot test something in isolation then do not proclaim it to be a test. At various times on this thread you've implied various unsavory and spiteful things. Unless you are capable of making a constructive or at least valid comment then please, for pitys sake, shut up. Your mud throwing does not serve to keep anyone honest. on 05/05/05 at 09:41:15, Bob P wrote:
No only one. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 5th, 2005, 10:52am (pushing successful) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by catlind on May 5th, 2005, 1:44pm I'm sure that Bob will say I'm way off base here, but this is how I see things. BobP has continually slammed some of the people from busters, and the treatment itself in varying degrees over the years. He has indicated that anyone who pushes for this research must have hidden agendas or ulterior motives and not the agenda of finding a viable legal effective treatment for clusters. BobP gets a great deal of entertainment value out of pushing Flash's buttons with no regard or concern for how that may effect the people involved in the research and study, the people who are already pain free from the treatment, or the people who may become pain free from the treatment. While Kudzu is showing promising potential, there is no continual bashing of the herbal remedy or constant barrage of twisting words of those who are experimenting with it. The way this comes across to me is that BobP is in fact very hopeful that this will become a viable treatment in the future, but can't stand the thought that he wasn't the one to make it happen and therefore must build himself up by tearing down others who have worked hard to make the study a reality. I am surmising this based on how many times I've seen BobP post about how he was the first one to be on board with it, the first one to contact MAPS etc. etc. Whatever enjoyment BobP gets out of intentionally setting out to push Flash's (or anyone elses) buttons is more important to him than actually seeing cluster sufferers helped. Disclaimer: This is the opinion of the poster, and in no way reflects any other persons opinion and should not be construed as anything other than an opinion that is just like an a$$hole and everyone has one, nor should anyone read this and think they should believe the same thing or be in agreement with this opinion, and neither should they feel the necessity to rebutt the opinion as nothing they say will sway this opinion the same as nothing in this opinion should sway what others opinions are. Cat |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 5th, 2005, 2:19pm But there are so many hidden agendas Cat. There are buster donors who want people on the OUCH BoD for their own purpose. There are instances of OUCH Officers speaking down on their own organization on other, private, message boards so they can be one of the buster bunch. There are advocates who profess hypothesis as fact. It goes on and on. My problem is not with the treatment but with some of the people (and that is why I point out that I was on board with the treatment from the beginning, not because I am jealous). I think I've only mentioned it when the do nothings that have jumped on the buster bandwagon start claiming I am against the treatment. Yep, I push Flash's buttons now because it's fun to see him worked up. I can just see his face turning red as he fevorishly bangs away on the keyboard. (push, bonus points?) |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Racer1_NC on May 5th, 2005, 2:50pm Quote:
Sure appears that way to me as well. Sad. Very sad indeed. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 5th, 2005, 2:55pm Too many sad people in this thread. I'm going to the brewhaha on the main board. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on May 5th, 2005, 3:08pm My 2 cents . . .it's pathetic that someone would prefer to bash busters (and the treatment) when that could have a negative reaction for someone suffering from ch . . .psilocybin might actually allwo them to enjoy life again, but they won't try it because they don't know the history . . . .talk about a hidden agenda . . . |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on May 5th, 2005, 3:20pm what's more pathetic, in my opinion, is people making assumptions and judgements of others when they've never met them. OR paid attention to all the behind the scenes work that both these guys have done. Bob and Flash have both made HUGE strides to help cluster sufferers and there was a time that they worked together to do this. To negatively label either one of them is wrong. I'm betting that if they ever do get the chance to meet each other face to face, they would end up working together again. But to suggest that a clusterhead takes delight in not offering another clusterhead a chance at relief....? That's over the line, in my opinion. I have NEVER seen anyone tell ANYONE not to try any one particular treatment. In fact, I know for a fact that lots of people here have made sure that other sufferers are furnished with the means to try certain treatments. Even those of us for whom said treatments haven't been successful. I think if a sufferer has reached the point where they need to try ANYTHING to stop the pain, they're not going to pay much attention to two boys biting at each other on the playground - they're going to research the treatment and make their own decision. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on May 5th, 2005, 3:29pm my 2 cents... Hell make it a quarter. Quote:
I think a large majority can see thru what is happening, but it is that minority.......be it only ONE person, that happens to see your "input", and closes the door on the treatment, when they could quite possibly have RELIEF from these friggin things, BUT continues to suffer or worse... WTF!!!!???? All because of some past "issues" with individuals??? Come on man....think about it.... ONE PERSON COULD be out there still suffering. I hope it weighs well on your conscience. But then again.......... Quote:
And this helps with our damn Ch's How?? Flash and other busters have bent over backwards trying to clarify what may or may not have been mentioned in the past. And your doing all this for "fun"..think about the ONE person STILL MOFO suffering. You may respond to.....heck just playing devils advocate..... just leave the advocate part out.... Bonus points...YEP....I fully agree, for any opposition. SteCo |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BikerBob on May 5th, 2005, 3:46pm on 05/05/05 at 15:20:22, Margi wrote:
Doesn't look to me like two boys biting at each other on the playground. Looks to me like Flash kicked Bob P's ass. 8) BikerBob |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on May 5th, 2005, 3:57pm on 05/05/05 at 15:46:38, BikerBob wrote:
oh I think Bob will probably live. Strange how different perceptions can be, isn't it? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Pinkfloyd on May 6th, 2005, 2:25am Sorry, you'll get no button points for this one. Thanks for the opportunity to once again discuss Clusterbusters and maybe clear up some misconceptions. on 05/05/05 at 14:19:10, Bob P wrote:
So tell me, if you will, what our hidden agenda here would be? To get OUCH to support Clusterbusters and the research? There are hundreds of posts here, on an open message board, from us, pleading with OUCH to support us. Was Flash too secretive in his pleadings?? :o Or is it, hmmm, let's see....we've infiltrated OUCH US and our next mission is to infiltrate the Red Cross and bring it to it's knees? I, along with every other Clusterbuster wants nothing more than for OUCH to not only succeed, but to grow and flourish. You may not remember this (as i sometimes forget) but I too have cluster headaches. I think OUCH and Clusterbusters have (and should have) different goals and different things that can be accomplished that will both be of great benefit to cluster sufferers worldwide. Are you trying to make people choose one or the other? These blanket statements that cast a pall on all clusterbusters (if you don't name one, we all get painted, as you know) as having hidden agenda's against the other, will cause some people to think they need to make a choice. Recruit all the busters you want for the BoD. (Sorry, I'm too busy) I'll go whichever way you tell me here BobP.. 1. Should I encourage the busters to run for positions on the BoD of OUCH? 2. Should I encourage them NOT to run for the OUCH BoD? Just let me know and I'll put it in the next newsletter. Had we wanted to fulfill some hidden agenda, don't you think I would have filled a slate last year when there weren't enough people to even hold an election? If being a Clusterbuster means people shouldn't run for office in OUCH, I think you should tell them before they put their names in for the upcoming elections. on 05/05/05 at 14:19:10, Bob P wrote:
Hmm... well you as a member didn't have to spend all that time speaking down on your organization in an open forum to become a member of the "buster bunch." Is that what you've been trying to accomplish over there at OUCH? hell Bob, you could have just asked. You were personally invited to become a buster member from the beginning and at least twice here on an open board since then. Shall I send you another invitation? on 05/05/05 at 14:19:10, Bob P wrote:
We have no "do nothings" in Clusterbusters. Every member is valuable in many ways. If not supporting others, then helping the org with many other things. If not that, then just the submission of their reports, both positive and negative, help to move this and future research forward, which will help all cluster sufferers. Just asking questions about their own treatment helps us all answer important questions. It's very simple to become very important at Clusterbusters. All our members can take pride in what has been achieved to date and will happen in the future. Besides that, you don't even need to join Clusterbusters to have a positive impact on the research. We've never tried to restrict inclusion in the study or inclusion of a person's experiences to just members. We happily take information or participation that anyone cares to offer. Many of the reports that are being used by Dr. Sewell are from non-members. We've never had a membership "drive" and members are always willing to help others that show up here. They are never directed to join clusterbusters so we can help them in private. (although some people prefer to discuss personal details on a closed board) In most cases, when people show up here asking what to try next, when seemingly at the end of their ropes....it's often someone that isn't a clusterbusters member that first mentions to check out our site. I know Margi does it often. So do many others. Anyway BobP, if you do support the research into the treatment, please feel free to hit the following link.. http://www.clusterbusters.com/necklace.htm Bobw |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 6th, 2005, 9:37am Kinda feels like a cluster Bob. Like beating my head against a wall. No matter how straight forward I am about my support of the treatment, of my joy that suffereres are not sufferering, there will always be those who interpret my questioning and challenging of some statements as non-support. It really doesn't matter. It is what it is. Peace. Now the big question is, can Flash come out and play today? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 6th, 2005, 10:59am on 05/06/05 at 09:37:54, Bob P wrote:
BobP - You do not leave much room for choice here. Either your false accusations and misinformation stand unchallenged... or someone does their best to correct it. Isn't that what's known as a smear campaign? Throw enough shit and it sticks? Do you really feel justified in implying false and misleading things, regarding the clusterbusters, shroom treatment, the clinical trial and the researchers involved in it... just to get at me? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 6th, 2005, 11:42am So Bob P says in posts in this thread: Quote:
and he is stating falsehoods. Flash challeneges me to admit my falsehood by answering his question: Quote:
Where is that wall with the head dents in it? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on May 6th, 2005, 11:44am well, Flash, you do keep rising to the bait. I think you BOTH get a kick out of it all. ok, flame away. You know you want to. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 6th, 2005, 12:03pm Quote:
I'm guilty too. I was gonna leave it at my post to Bob but couldn't help myself. Must be my compulsive/addictive personality. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on May 6th, 2005, 12:06pm well, Bob, I don't think it's very nice to call Flash a nymph. I'm just sayin... |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by SteCo on May 6th, 2005, 12:16pm Quote:
So this thing does not get any more out of hand....A nymph is (fly)fishing terminology for a fly (bait) on the end of the line. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Margi on May 6th, 2005, 12:19pm SteCo, I was kidding. ;) Flash has a terrific sense of humour, just like Bob does. I was hoping they both got a smile out of that one. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on May 6th, 2005, 12:27pm on 05/06/05 at 12:16:15, SteCo wrote:
It is? Well, there's this well stacked blond 18 year old a couple houses from mine that it...............uh,.......hmmm never mind. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 6th, 2005, 12:55pm on 05/06/05 at 11:42:02, Bob P wrote:
We suffer from cluster headaches not memory problems. The original context that you applied, was that one of the Clusterbusters had progressed to using shrooms recreationally. Your inference being that they had a drug problem. The evidence you held up to support this was that one of the researchers was a psychiatrist specialising in substance abuse. The message that you intended people to read-between-the-lines gave the impression that the research wasn't being conducted by 'real doctors'... although one of them was some sort of part-time neurologist. Yes isolate those 2 sentences and they appear reasonable and factual; a textbook example of how to apply negative spin. It's that application of negative spin that I object to Bob. The missing details. The half truths. The stuff that is implied when your comments are taken in context... and the ironic way in which you interpret everything else out of context. The subliminal messages that you intentionally hide between-the-lines. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 8th, 2005, 6:51am Hello everyone. 2 things for my first post: 1) My situation - 13 years of CH, which sent my life down the tubes. Tried a lot of things, mainstream and alternative (still pacing and walking until my blisters bleed), in fact it was 5 years before I even got a correct diagnosis. Currently trying cubensis for the second year - not working as well this year as it did last year. I am 48, male, and living in New York - the city optimists believe is the greatest city in the world, and pessimists are afraid that it's true! 2) The main reason for my leaving lurking behind - the fence that divides those who think drug use can be recreational versus abusive. IMHO, you all need a history lesson. The "war on drugs" has NEVER been about abuse and its consequences - you may choose to believe this or not. I, for one, believe absolutely nothing. As Robert Anton Wilson said, "Belief is the death of thought." Please take the time to read what has become known as "The Elkhorn Manifesto" at the following link: http://www.sumeria.net/politics/shadv3.html In a nutshell, the idea of prohibiting "dangerous" drugs was never about drugs at all, it was about preventing the industrial revolution from revitalizing the hemp industry, which would have prevented the oil and paper monopolies from gaining the worldwide control they have commanded over the world economy to this day. The movie "Reefer Madness" was the beginning of a propaganda campaign to sway public opinion toward giving Standard Oil (now ExxonMobil), DuPont, and the Newspaper/Logging interests full control over non-renewable resources that would have been seriously threatened by a single cheap, renewable fuel and paper source, namely HEMP. Wake up. The Nazis won, they bought the White House, and the other 99% of the world (you and I) lost. So when people talk about the "immorality" of "illegal drug abuse," they are simply towing the party line of a very small group of people that now owns us all, as slaves. Thank you for allowing me to draw this to your attention. P.S. The picture is of Eris, the goddess of chaos, whose love kept me alive through my literally incredible (as far as my parents are concerned) journey of pain, until she died two years ago. My eyes well up with tears at the realization of how much I still need her. The universe is truly beautiful, harsh and unfair. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on May 8th, 2005, 7:24am Hey Harry, My first thought is Huh? What the heck is he talking about? Quote:
Yet in the paragraph above it you say Quote:
If you believe in absolutely nothing, why are you suggesting that we believe in what you say? Then you put in a link to the Elkhorn Manifesto as if you want us to read it and believe it. I did read it and think it is bullshit. Quote:
Hmmmm……no they didn’t. Quote:
Owns us? As slaves? LMAO Quote:
You believe your cat was a fairy tale goddess? Thought you believed in absolutely nothing. And finally, I think you need to find better quality shrooms. The stuff you’re hooked on is fucking up your mind. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 8th, 2005, 7:59am Bob - I suggested no beliefs. I offered an opinion, based on documented historical facts, not bullshit. I also do not believe that my cat was a fairy anything - I was simply stating her name. The shrooms I am using are the strongest I've had in 30 years, but I don't think 6 doses in 35 years can be accurately described as "hooked." I think it is obvious that you have some very strong beliefs, and that is exactly the problem. Along with 95% of the world's population, you seem to be guided by delusions, instead of verified facts. I feel pity for your closed mind, as embedded belief systems are so hard to break. But hey, don't worry, your masters will continue to support your right to be controlled. You are "free" to avoid reality for as long as you like. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 8th, 2005, 8:09am One more thing - You read 20,000 words in less than 33 minutes? Perhaps you skimmed? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2005, 8:32am on 05/08/05 at 06:51:25, Harry_Smith wrote:
Harry, It's just that using the general term "drugs" in your post, you cut a wide swath of inclusion for your statements. There have been laws made due to abuse, prohibiting dangerous drugs. Chemist C.R. Alder Wright at St. Mary's Hospital in London derived heroin from morphine. Bayer pharmaceutical company began to mass produce it in 1897 for respiratory ailments, for which it was widely used in the U.S. during the early 20th century. Pharmacists noted the addictive qualities similar to morphine and in 1914 the Harrison Narcotics Act deems heroin a controlled substance, imposing a tax on it. In 1924 however, the Heroin Act passes, making the drug illegal to possess or manufacture. With your using the term "drugs" here, I am envisioning a different kind of slave, were it not for making this particular "drug" illegal. Just a point in being more specific when refering to "drugs" and laws made about them not being about its abuse and consequences. You were, I see, refering marajuana and to cluster related treatment, and not illegal drugs in general, but that wasn't made clear. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 8th, 2005, 8:51am Kevin, Is not the repeal of Alcohol prohibition evidence of the failure of these sorts of control? Has "drug" prohibition done ANYTHING to stem "abuse," instead simply driving the prices and profits ever higher? Has there been any benefit to the criminalisation of ANY drug, except for those who traffic in them? Who has been saved by the drug laws? Who has been protected? Who hasn't been able to procure illegal drugs, if they wanted them? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2005, 9:01am on 05/08/05 at 06:51:25, Harry_Smith wrote:
I responded to these statements, predominantly the first. ...meanwhile, back to cluster treatments. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on May 8th, 2005, 9:43am Harry, Thank you for getting me straight Quote:
Huh? You offered your opinion based on facts and you want us to believe you, yet you have admitted that you don’t believe them. Huh? Since you are implying that I am included in the 95% of the world's population guided by delusions, and that you are among the 5% that are the masters I want to thank you for allowing me to be free to avoid reality. P.S. Shhh, very quietly please tell me who else on this board is a “Master”. I won’t tell anyone, honest. You can believe me. Modified to add a question.......or 2. You're one of the Masters, right. Does that make you a Nazi? And no, I did not read every word of that manifesto. After the first few paragraphs it was clear that there was no need to read the entire thing. Question 2- Will you share your mushrooms? I really want to avoid reality and they seem to work for you. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 8th, 2005, 10:31am Bob, I did not ask you to believe anything, least of all me. I simply asked you to look at the facts, openly and objectively. I do not claim to be a master of anyone or anything, other than my own mind. I know I am not free, although I consider myself to be a free thinker, as opposed to being a slave to beliefs imposed by others. However, if you really want some of the mushrooms I have, I gladly offer them to you, for free. But didn't this thread grow from your avoidance of the mushroom therapy, because of your "moral beliefs" about the ethics of drug abuse? Thank you though, for admitting that you make your claim of what I offered as bullshit, based on your beliefs, rather than actually evaluating the facts. That pretty much puts to rest anyone's doubts about your position, and the foundation of sand that it's based on. Dismissal without any actual analysis is apparently a favorite defense of the delusional. But just to be crystal clear, can you tell us all WHY you claim it's bullshit? Can you back that up with a set of facts to support your position? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by vig on May 8th, 2005, 9:13pm on 05/08/05 at 10:31:48, Harry_Smith wrote:
eh, wrong Bob, I think... BobP vs. BobG |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 8th, 2005, 10:06pm oops. I guess all Bobs look alike to me... If so, my mistake. My apologies to both Bobs. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Mr. Happy on May 9th, 2005, 12:59am on 05/08/05 at 22:06:22, Harry_Smith wrote:
Cheesus. You're giving diss-ertations on reality, and can't tell Bob's apart? This sparks thoughts of someone that hasn't been taking their anti-psychotics, like the doctor said. It's times like this when I feel absolutely "Recreational." Jones to Smith. Over. RJ |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by BobG on May 9th, 2005, 3:00am on 05/08/05 at 22:06:22, Harry_Smith wrote:
Apology accepted. Bob P is the tall, handsome, rich guy from California. I'm the other one. This is getting more and more funny. Harry, you're making all this up as you go along, right? Heil Harry and good night. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 9th, 2005, 8:26am Quote:
Actually, I have tried the treatment a number of times. Grown my own and supplied a number of sufferers with my crop. I have never said anything against the treatment nor have I said that you can become addicted to it. I said that using a drug for other than it's intended purpose is abusing it and that some clusterheads have and will use shrooms for recreational purposes. What you accuse me of has come from other peoples mouths, not mine. Your beliefs are erroneous. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on May 9th, 2005, 8:47am Bobp, don't forget to add, you insinuate that we (busters) use the treatment for other than medicinal purposes. You also forgot to mention that, while yes, you did try the treatment, you have not accepted advice from the busters, on interactions etc . . .so the fact that the treatment didn't work for you is a moot point. As for the growing and sharing the treatment, I commend you. Possibly, you do want to see the treatment work for others . . .and possibly, you haven't been desperate enough, yourself, to give the treatment an honest effort . . . if that's the case, I only hope that you never become that desperate, and that the beast doesn't dance in your head anymore . . . *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 9th, 2005, 9:36am Quote:
Quote:
I see on the general board that Dan is getting hit hard. I'm very sorry to hear that (beginning my 9th week of this cluster renews my sympathy for anyone getting hit). Wondering if we will see you telling him he did it wrong, didn't give it a good try, etc. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by miapet on May 9th, 2005, 10:36am Yes, Dan is getting hit hard, and we have all been discussing what has been going on. Dan is making every effort, and my (our) heart(s) go out to him. I do know, that he hasn't given up. I know he had experienced some relief . . .I can only hope he is continuing to get relief, and that the beast will leave him alone . . .I know there is nothing more painful, nor tiring than the never ending battle with the beast . . .and that even some relief gives a person a chance to build up their strength for the next go-around . . .I hope that Dan is getting enough to continue his fight . . .and Bob, you can believe this, if there was anything I could do for him, I would do it . . . *positive light and energy* miapet |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by seasonalboomer on May 9th, 2005, 3:59pm Wow! This thread took a groovy swerve into the median last week. Harry brings a new voice to the argument don't you all think? I'm now not all that convinced that we aren't all connected to the Matrix. Where's Neo when you need him? |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Harry_Smith on May 10th, 2005, 5:34am BobP wrote: "I said that using a drug for other than it's intended purpose is abusing it and that some clusterheads have and will use shrooms for recreational purposes." To which I feel the need to ask: 1) What is the "intended purpose" of drugs like Jack Daniels, Wine, etc.? 2) What is the "intended purpose" of Magic Mushrooms? 3) If there is a difference between "Abuse" and "Recreational use," where is the line drawn, and who draws that line? 4) Cigarettes are, IMHO, strictly for recreational use, with no other redeeming value, since there is so much evidence that they only do damage and have absolutely no benefits to the body. Yet, they are legal, worldwide. So, does this mean that any use of cigarettes is both recreational AND abusive? And what does that say about the morality of cigarettes legal standing? What I am trying to say, and maybe not too well, because of the swiss cheese my brain has become (strictly because of CH, not drugs IMHO) Is that the legality of most drugs, if not all, has little to do with their use, beneficial or otherwise. When it comes to drugs (all kinds) the laws are really about control of financial markets. And, in my opinion that includes heroin, since somebody is making fantastic amounts of money because of it's black market status. I was not surprised when, after the Taliban had virtually eliminated poppy cultivation in Afghanistan (for which the US rewarded them with $43 million), the US turned around and waged an (illegal) war against that country, and now Afghanistan is once again the number one source of heroin in the world. As with capital punishment, these are moral values, that I don't see anyone having the right to make for me, especially a government. It seems they try to protect the masses from the individuals, when it should be the other way around. I can only see control of that kind being useful when one person is endangered by another. The dangers of "illegal" drugs are the apparatus set up to distribute them, not their effects on the body. As Frank Zappa once said, "What ever you're gonna do, as long as it doesn't cause a murder, let's get on with it." Of course, this came from a man who was strongly against drugs, not because of their legality, but because he thought that mostly drugs make people stupid. He also smoked cigarettes and drank occasionally, until his death, which happened to be unrelated to either substance. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by JJA on May 10th, 2005, 8:12am on 05/10/05 at 05:34:28, Harry_Smith wrote:
Now you're talking. I agree with you that the drug war has gone horribly wrong and causes way more problems than it fixes. I work seriously to bring reforms to minimize the harms drugs do to society, especially what the drug war has done to our freedom in the US. I think most people are beginning to see this, but talk of Nazi's and slaves will only make people turn a deaf ear on "us crazies". (my opinion) Sorry about Eris. That's a sad story. Jesse |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Kevin_M on May 10th, 2005, 8:29am on 05/10/05 at 05:34:28, Harry_Smith wrote:
On a clusterheadaches websight, in a medications and treatment forum, on a thread named "alternative treatments"... in that context for our purposes, it would be intended as an alternative treatment for clusterheadaches. Quote:
He also said, "the mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work unless you open it." It's good to make sure it's open wide enough to break a fall too. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Flash on May 10th, 2005, 9:28am on 05/09/05 at 09:36:11, Bob P wrote:
Assuming we are talking about the same Dan... Dan does not seem to metabolise hallucinogenic drugs in the usual way. He has been taking doses that should send a person to the moon and experiencing virtually no effects, as in no hallucinogenic effects and no clusterbusting effects. He also commented that the same happened to him years ago when he tried to take acid recreationally, he took a couple of very big doses and got nothing off them. At the time he put it down to poor quality acid, but now it looks like he has a freaky metabolism. Unfortunately Dan has detoxed and given the treatment every possible chance, so it doesn't look good for him. on 05/09/05 at 09:36:11, Bob P wrote:
Never mind at least you got some political mileage out of his pain and suffering Bob. |
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Title: Re: alternative treatment Post by Bob P on May 10th, 2005, 9:45am Harry, Alcohol damages your liver and kills brain cells. It serves no purpose that I see so even going out on Saturday night for a couple of beers is abusing your body. Tabacco - also nothing but bad. People draw the line in different places. I simply express where mine is drawn. Sometimes I step over my own line. Drug laws - purely political. |
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Title: bump... Post by Not4Hire on Jun 9th, 2005, 10:04pm ...because this is a thread that should be read (regularly)... ...because bobP should never have the *last* post... ...because this affliction is *NEVER* purely political or purely medical or purely emotional or purely...... anything..... ...it's just *personal*... y'all hurt sometimes... so do I... ...and we all find a way to make it through another day, another night... ...keep on lookin' for another .....way best, n4 |
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