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Title: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:20pm Just came across this - an ingredient in kudzu stimulates the 5-HT1 receptors (like the triptans) and blocks the 5-HT2 receptors (like olanzapine, maybe the long term effect of clusterbusters). Wish they were more specific about which 5-ht1 and 5-ht2 receptors were involved. Whole kudzu root contains lots of other stuff, and may have a different effect, although treatment of migraine is one traditional use for kuzu. Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:33pm Good luck digging those roots without a back hoe - like anything kudzu related, they can be monsterous! ;) http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/crazykudzu/fotos/Kudzu.gif |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vietvet2tours on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:41pm Kudzu is starch plain and simple.You can get it dried and powdered at the health food stores. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by guesst on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:44pm There is lots of that stuff growing in Mississippi. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:45pm on 02/02/05 at 13:41:40, vietvet2tours wrote:
The root is rich in starch - it can be ground up and washed to purify the starch. But the root is also a rich source of medicinal compounds - this same compound pueraria has been shown to decrease alcohol cravings. Most of the medical compounds are probably removed in the starch production process. The vines can also be made into a fabric that is better than linen! But it is labor intensive, and pretty rare these days. Kudzu root also has strong anti-bacterial effects, reducing contamination of foods by 6-7 log (99.9999% reduction): Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by eddie on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:45pm well here in Alabama we have enough for the whole CH board LOL [smiley=laugh.gif] curious though eddie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:50pm on 02/02/05 at 13:45:07, floridian wrote:
So, do we start picking, drying and smoking it? Can someone send me some? I'll pretty much smoke anything... ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 1:57pm The root is available dried, in slices. It is boiled into tea - usually for 45 minutes or more. I have also seen it in capsules at health food stores. Just found this: Quote:
The PDR says a typical daily dose is 9-15 grams (28 grams = 1 ounce), so that is 1/3 - 1/2 ounce, roughly. http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/herbaldrugs/101640.shtml |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by guesst on Feb 2nd, 2005, 2:10pm on 02/02/05 at 13:50:40, nani wrote:
It will overtake your property, very hardy vegetation. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 2:16pm A vigorous grower, but a few gardening tips for kudzu are here: http://www.locksley.com/kudzu.htm |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 2nd, 2005, 2:36pm It seems it acts on 5-HT(2C) receptors, according to this: Quote:
...interesting Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Gator on Feb 2nd, 2005, 2:41pm on 02/02/05 at 14:16:55, floridian wrote:
LMAO [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Feb 2nd, 2005, 2:49pm Quote:
The stuff will make your butt hole cold!!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 2:52pm Good find, Ozzy! So the first article says 5-ht2a, the second says 5-ht2c (could be both, they were measuring different things). That only leaves the question of whether there is a triptan-like effect from the 5-ht1 action ... they mention 5-ht1A effects, triptans are mostly 5-ht1B/D ??? Could there be a new non-triptan like effect that blocks the pain? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 2nd, 2005, 3:01pm on 02/02/05 at 14:49:56, Bob P wrote:
So will melatonin. The problem is clear - we are hot a$$eS full of steaming $hit. So chill a bit, everyone! ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Gator on Feb 2nd, 2005, 3:36pm on 02/02/05 at 15:01:59, floridian wrote:
Well, if THAT's the problem maybe shoving an ice cube...uh...nevermind. ;;D Good articles. Alternative treatment possibilities? Worth looking into. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 2nd, 2005, 5:00pm Ok, looking for more 5-HT related stuff and puerarin, I came across a different article from a Chinese Pharmacology site: www.chinaphar.com The article title: " 5-HT1B receptor augmented 5-HT vasoconstrictor response of pulmonary artery in monocrotaline-induced pulmonary hypertensive rats WANG Huai-Liang, DONG Xu, ZHANG Xin-Hua, XING Jun " In this case they found that monocrotaline acts on the 5-HT1(B/D) receptors (much like Imitrex) The full article in pdf can be seen here: http://www.chinaphar.com/1671-4083/22/269.pdf Interesting as well.. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 7th, 2005, 8:13am I don't want to jump the gun, or jinx myself, but... I started taking kudzu root, Bcomplex and trace minerals (for the magnesium and lithium in the combo) on Friday. I can honestly say that on Sat and Sun I had no more than 3 K1 shadows. Saturday's shadow lasted about 3 hours...yesterdays were only about an hour each. I'm still on the verap, lithium and Neurontin...but so far...so good. :) Edited to add: thanks, flo! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 7th, 2005, 11:22am Interesting stuff Flo.. maybe the way it grows, it's trying to tell us something. like..."HEY...what do I need to do to get your attention.....I can help!!!!" With it being so plentiful I can see why we never hear anything about it for treating headaches. :( Paul...point one of those shoots off into the direction of Chicago and I'll dig some roots up on friday LOL Bobw |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Gator on Feb 10th, 2005, 1:41am on 02/07/05 at 08:13:56, nani wrote:
Well, Nani. Day 6. How goes it so far? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 10th, 2005, 8:46am Minor shadows and a couple of "icepick" type pains...I'm getting a little excited now! Nothing over a k2. I'm not going to brag, per se....but I havent felt this good for this long in at least 4 years. :) As you know, I had it realtively easy compared to most chronics. I always felt the Neurontin helped to "dull" all of my HAs...but I was getting so tired of the everyday pain I was ready to go "alternative". I tried this as a last resort. If I continue this way, I feel it's at a level I can live with (actually, almost happily live with). I should note that when I bought the kudzu, I didn't really read the ingredients. I bought something called Kudzu Recovery which is actually a blend of herbs, but predominantly kudzu. This blend was formulated for alcohol recovery. I would definitley recommend that people try it. **crossing fingers, knocking wood** So far, so good. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 10th, 2005, 9:30am Nani, Congratulation on your success! I have a couple of questions. You mentioned that your blend contains other herbs. Could you list them for us. It may be of help. Also the infor I have seen on kudzu, says that about 30-120 mg 2-3 times day of the concentrated form should be used. How much are you taking? How often? Thanks for being a guinea pig. Gotta keep looking myself ofr other stores near by, I want to try this. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 10th, 2005, 9:46am Sure oz... I'm taking 750mg per day other ingredients: kudzu flower, hovenia fruit, coptis root, poria sclerotium, zhu ling sclerotium, bai zhu atractyodes rhizome, codonopsis root, shen qu-massa fermentata extract, cardoman fruit and ginger root. The brand is: Planetary formulas and I got it at a local herb store. It must be a common brand because i live in a small town and the stores inventory is pretty limited. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 10th, 2005, 10:14am I googled this and found what I think is the product... Nani could you confirm? http://www.iherb.com/kudzu2.html Ozzy I'd be happy to run a side by side trial with you to see what happens I'm pretty sick of this CHit myself here. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 10th, 2005, 10:19am Yes, Pegg...the classic Chinese formula. I'm sorry that I didn't try it by itself first. As I said...I also added B complex and trace minerals. And I have not stopped taking my "regular" prevents....yet |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 10th, 2005, 10:21am Planetary Formulas Kudzu Recovery features the roots and flowers of kudzu (Pueraria lobata), which have long been used in Chinese herbalism to help lessen the desire for alcohol. Researchers have identified two constituents in kudzu responsible for this activity, daidzein and daidizin, which in animal research have been found to cause a similar effect. These are combined with coptis, a primary cleansing and liver-supporting herb from Chinese herbalism, and other key botanicals to support botanicals historically used to reduce cravings. Lifestyle Recommendations: To decrease cravings, maintain adequate caloric intake by eating regularly scheduled meals, avoid simple sugar, and supplement with GTF chromium and B-complex vitamin. Avoid excess stress, exercise regularly, and promote a calm mental state of well-being. Suggested Use: Two tablets, three times daily between meals, or as recommended by your health care professional. Store in a cool dry place. Warnings: Not for use during pregnancy. Do not use if either tamper-evident seal is broken or missing. Keep out of the reach of children. Supplement Facts Serving Size: 2 Tablets Serving per container: 60 Amount Per Serving Proprietary Blend: 1.5 g + Kudzu root, Kudzu flower, Hovenia fruit, Copits root, Poria Cocos sclerotium, Grifola sclerotium, Atractylodes root, Codonopsis root, Saussurearoot, Shen Qu-Massa Fermentata extract, Green Citrus peel, Cardamom fruit and Ginger root. ----------------------------------------------------------------- + Daily Values Not Established. Other Ingredients: sorbitol, stearic acid, colloidal silicon dioxide, modified cellulose gum and magnesium stearate. " Expiration Date: Approx. 3 years from date of purchase. This part is interesting as well.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Feb 10th, 2005, 11:43am Can anyone who understands the posted scientific articles about Kudzu guess on the safety of this for those of us who can't take Imitrex because of a heart condition? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 10th, 2005, 11:57am I can't take triptans, Paul. I haven't experienced any of those uncomfortable feelings I got when I tried treating CH with Imitrex. My dr now refuses to let me have any triptans, so I haven't used any in about 2years. Interesting note on the magnesium, Pegg. I'm taking the mineral compound for the magnesium and lithium. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Feb 10th, 2005, 12:13pm Excellent! Off to the health food store to find some of this stuff ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 10th, 2005, 12:21pm on 02/10/05 at 11:43:46, PaulL wrote:
Kudzu is used for high-blood pressure and angina; it seems to have a beneficial effect on these conditions. The isoflavones in kudzu are similiar to those in soy, and those have demonstrated some beneficial effects on the heart. The isoflavones are called 'phytoestrogens' although they are much much weaker than normal estrogen; from what we know, they protect bone (like estrogen), but they inhibit breast and endometrial cancer (unlike estrogen) - so there is little dangers that men become effeminate from eating soy or kudzu. These compounds seem to be beneficial for other cardio conditions (metabolic syndrome, cholesterol control, etc): Quote:
Quote:
This does not necessarily mean it is good for all heart conditions - and individual response to anything varies. According to the "doctrine of signatures" kudzu should be good for the heart - the shape of the leaves resembles the heart, and presumably God made them that shape so humans would know what to use them for. Oh, wait, I'm one of those evolutionists that doesn't use the doctrine of signatures for making medical decisions. But this photo of a kudzu vine clearly is an omen ... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 10th, 2005, 12:26pm LOL flo!! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 10th, 2005, 1:38pm I gotta go shopping soon, so that I can start reporting as well. I might get my cholesterol to a maneageble number as well. There is an idea, I'll take this for a couple of months and have my annual bloodwork done. Let's where that takes me. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Feb 11th, 2005, 8:37am What is the likelyhood that the chemical structure of whatever is working in the Kudzu is similar to the chemical structure of seratonin, Imitrex, and psilocybin given that it has 5-HT receptor activity? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Feb 11th, 2005, 9:22am on 02/10/05 at 13:38:36, ozzy wrote:
You go shopping, I'm just going out into the yard and picking some... I presume the roots winter-over and are still usable. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 11th, 2005, 10:23am on 02/11/05 at 08:37:49, PaulL wrote:
Puerarin doesn't have an indole ring like tryptophan, serotonin, or the triptans. In liver mitochondria, puerarin and daidzin prevent the final stages of serotonin breakdown .... instead of producing 5-HIAA (inactive, excreted), cells exposed to kudzu saw an increase in serotonin aldehydes like 5-hydroxyindole-3-acetaldehyde (5-HIAL). Google only has 37 references to 5-HIAL, and only 14 of those are uniques, the others are duplicates. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/5/2198 Don't know for sure, but 5-HIAL might be the key player in kudzu - it could be the 5-ht1 agonist or 5-ht2 antagonist. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 11th, 2005, 12:18pm Day 7....so far, so good. I had some pressure on my temple for about 10 minutes this morning, I wouldn't even call it a shadow. I'm feeling brave. I am supposed to take Concerta for ADD and haven't because it can make the day after a bad CH day. I think I'm going to try it tomorrow. With luck, I can begin to take control of this chaos that is my life. 8) edited to add: almost 9pm...one more 10 minute pressure thingy...my best day so far! OK...getting a little excited (almost). ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Feb 13th, 2005, 12:37pm floridian, Since Kudzu doesn't seem to be related to the triptans and seratonin, what is the possibility that it will interact with them in some way to make the therapy less effective, assuming nani's success can be repeated? Nani, Still feeling good? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 13th, 2005, 2:10pm Thanks for asking, Paul. Yes...I'm still feeling very good. Yesterday I even took a smaller than normal dose of my ADD meds, to see if they would trigger a CH. (they have in the past) No problems yesterday, and so far so good today. Still not 100% PF, just having those tiny (almost a .5 on the kip scale) temple pressure episodes a couple of times a day, and yesterday I had a k2 shadow for about 15 minutes. :) :) :) I beginning to recommend this treatment through PMs. Now I'll recommend it publicly. I think it's certainly worth a try for chronics. I'm now curious to see how it would work for episodics. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 14th, 2005, 8:02am on 02/13/05 at 12:37:48, PaulL wrote:
There is a real possibility that this would have some interaction with triptans and the alternative treatment. I think it could increase the activity of triptans, which could be quite negative ... Nani cant take triptans, and this is a much more gentle/gradual herb, but if it changes serotonin metabolism, its not a good idea to mix kudzu with triptans. I am also speculating that it could interfere with shrooms if taken in the weeks before trying that approach. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 14th, 2005, 12:03pm modified to add picture of trigeminal Day three of Kudzu. I found a formulation that contains only the kudzu extract (Planetary Formulas). Each capsule contains 150 mg I decided to take the caplets twice a day. First pill, no physical signs that it worked or not. Second pill, day one. Felt maybe what Nani described as icepick pains. This was in the evening, my usual CH active period. My description of the pain however would be more like: I felt the trigeminal nerve on my CH side being active. Meaning, if you look at a diagram of the paths of the trigeminal, just like I felt, my teeth, around the eye, cheek, etc. No real CH headache, just the nerve thing. Kinda weird. So on day 2 and today I only took the "am" caplet, plus the 3mg melatonin at night. We'll see how the week progresses. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 14th, 2005, 1:14pm Day 10...still cruisin'... :) A few easy shadows. I like how ozzy said trigeminal nerve activity. I've had that a couple of times, you can feel it but it doesn't really hurt. I have not taken the ADD meds again yet...maybe tomorrow. I don't want to mess with this. Life is good...life is good. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 15th, 2005, 10:48am Day 11.... :) ;;D :D I am hardly even a "shadow" of my former self. ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 15th, 2005, 12:17pm ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 15th, 2005, 8:49pm Thanks, Giovanni. I had a rough day today. First, I had to run out to meet the schoolbus without my sunglasses on...sunlight is always a trigger. Then my dog died while I sat with her. That was a 45 minute cry...again always a trigger. The crying required repeated nose blowing...very often a trigger. I had about a k3 shadow for about 45 minutes today. That's all. If I wasn't so broken up about the dog...I think I'd be happy dancing. I may take an extra kudzu cap tonight...just to cover my bases. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 15th, 2005, 9:04pm If this doesn't require some serious Beta Testing from anybody in cycle, I don't know what does. Cheesus. Sorry about the dog, Nani. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 15th, 2005, 11:40pm OK my cycle started last week. Just got this bottle of Kudzu and took 2. I registered just to help try this out and share the results. I will keep the board posted. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 16th, 2005, 12:20am on 02/15/05 at 23:40:16, Shiraj wrote:
That's great, Shiraj...welcome. Let's hope we find lasting relief and pave the way for our fellow CHers to get the same. How about giving us more info...are you taking any other meds now? Have you tried any that did/didn't work? Are you taking any supplements? Have you been diagnosed? Pain free wishes from your fellow guinea pig, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 16th, 2005, 12:35am Ive been getting these since i was 14 but just figured something might be wrong with me like 3 years ago. Im 21 now. Got diagnosed last year, but really it was me telling my doc what CH was. I now have a whole drawer full of imitrex shots, but its only the first week of pain so it hasnt got to the i wanna kill myself kinda pain yet. I do take the 3mg melatonin before bed and that helps with sleep so far. I tried the clusterbusters thing and that worked but due to stupidity i have none this year. (THAT LAST PART WAS MADE UP IF THERES NARCS) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ccbiggsoo7 on Feb 16th, 2005, 12:39am Nani, sorry to hear about your loss, no not of the headaches. That is a family member, sometimes better than most family. Glad you have felt some relief! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 16th, 2005, 11:14am Thanks CC... I took an extra kudzu tab last night, just in case. So far, so good today. Again, I'm not completely PF...but have felt about a 95% improvement. No real hits...just easy shadows and nerve activity. I had a bit of my eye twitching last night, but not today. Ozzy, Shiraj... how are you guys doing? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 16th, 2005, 11:49am Sorry about your dog, Nani :-/ The kudzu appears to have benefit here. Good luck to everybody trying it. John |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Feb 16th, 2005, 1:40pm Cool! If/when I go into cycle, I'm going to try this. Thank you, Nani. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on Feb 16th, 2005, 1:43pm THink I need to look for this stuff. Not willing to try the alternative. Hell my worked called and asked me about my back meds cause they showed up on the drug test. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 16th, 2005, 5:32pm So, if I understand this correctly, the Kudzu might help. I want to try it. However, it may not be good to take with triptans? I am trying to follow, but help me out. I am in cycle, and am willing to give it a try. There's a couple of herb stores around the corner, and I can probably go get it tonight. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 16th, 2005, 5:52pm Quote:
Your back pain medication is/was probably an opiate based medicine. The typical drug screen scans for this and about 3 or 4 others that are COMMONLY used. Mushrooms are almost never tested in a drug screen as the screen would be extremely expensive and unnecessary. If you were tested for this (mushrooms) specifically, it would show up at the maximum of 3 days after ingestion. John [smiley=twocents.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 16th, 2005, 6:13pm on 02/16/05 at 17:32:34, clarence wrote:
Casey, according to what Floridian says somewhere above, it may not be wise to use kudzu and triptans at the same time. I can't use triptans, so even though it has a similar effect, it is much more gentle and gradual. I don't know if it's a good idea to try it or not. At least not without considering giving up the triptans for awhile. Flo? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on Feb 16th, 2005, 6:37pm on 02/16/05 at 17:52:36, Giovanni wrote:
Codine. Actually. The hair test showed that I used Codine and they wanted to make sure that i had scripts for them. more then happy to show them the bottels. I know that everyone has told me that mushrooms are not tested for, but it just really makes me nervious. Rather stick with something that I dont have the stress about and see if that works before I jump into something that could have bad reprocussions. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sylvan on Feb 16th, 2005, 6:53pm Nani: I'm so sorry for your loss. Fly Free Sweet Shiva. I'm very glad to hear that something is helping with your CH though. Here's what my favorite herbal reference site has to say about kudzu: http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_kudzu.htm It's quite a sinister looking plant though. Gives me the creeps when i go south. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 16th, 2005, 7:02pm on 02/16/05 at 18:13:05, nani wrote:
Ok, so just to clarify, what does it mean to try kudzu and triptans "at the same time?" The last time I took a shot was 2 days ago. I know with the shrooms they recommend that you wait at least five days, but that is so that it will work. I just don't want to take it if it is going to be dangerous. Isn't Kudzu an "alien species," one of those that came from somewhere else and is taking over ecosystems. Kind of like Killer Bees in the Southwest? Or those fish that walk on land? Casey ps- nani, I am sorry about your dog. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 16th, 2005, 7:07pm By the way, Image search on Google for Kudzu, got the Kudzu Queen: http://www.southernangel.com/redneck/kudzu.jpg Is that you nani? Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 16th, 2005, 7:09pm Thanks for the sympathy everyone... Kudzu is originally from Asia and has taken over the southern US. If it's been more than a day since your last triptan shot, my feeling would be (and I could be wrong) it would be OK to try kudzu today. Then you may not need another shot (yes...I feel that optimistic) anytime soon. My guess is if someone were using shots everyday it would not be wise to add kudzu until the triptans were out of your system. But the kudzu is more gradual...so if you took 750 mgs tonight...would a trex shot tomorrow morning be OK? I really can't answer that for you. Do you tolerate triptans well? If so, it may not be a problem. It's all just guessing at this point. Wanna join the guinea pigs? ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 16th, 2005, 7:15pm LMAO Casey.... [smiley=laugh.gif] I'm going to run next year. ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by broomhilda on Feb 16th, 2005, 8:55pm Just one question about this...can you take it while on prevents? ie. verapamil/lithuim? Thanks!!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 16th, 2005, 8:59pm I use both, Andrea...and Neurontin as well. If my success continues, I plan on eliminating them one at a time. (except the Verap...I have high BP) edited for spelling. It always looks right the first time. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by broomhilda on Feb 16th, 2005, 9:07pm This is interestingly promising to say the least... I think many of us are watching how this goes.. keep us posted and pf wishes to all!!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 17th, 2005, 12:17am First day on kudzu i had 1 bad hit at 2 but it only lasted 25 minutes and not even a shadow for the rest of the day after that. Looking forward to tomorrow now! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 17th, 2005, 12:27am ;;D That's good news, Shiraj! [smiley=thumb.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 17th, 2005, 5:33am Yea!............you guys are on a roll. ;;D Nani, why not throw in a couple B-50 Complex vitamins a day to the mix? BTW, Codine is a naturally occurring constituent of opium. John |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 17th, 2005, 8:39am John...I started taking B-Complex 50 and trace minerals at the same time as the kudzu. I take 1 B complex a day and 1/2 tsp of liquid trace minerals that include magnesium & lithium. I could take more of the minerals, but they're liquid and taste nasty. The herb store lady told me liquid was the way to go for speedy absorption. Next time, I'm buying the pills. Yesterday was stressful and confusing, lots of activity and sensory overload (sometimes triggers) and again...just a couple of very easy shadows. I find that I am getting a "regular" shadow (k2) at around 10:30 PM everynight. I've never been "regular"...all my HAs have been unpredictable in the past. Tonight I'm going to try a second kudzu at around 9 PM...just to see... People...we may have found something here.... I can't tell you how my life and outlook have changed...after 4 1/2 years of chronic clusters....I feel human again.... ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 17th, 2005, 8:47am on 02/17/05 at 08:39:29, nani wrote:
What are you selling? You're one of those sinusbusters people, aren't you... just kiddin. I am really glad this is helping you nani. I am really happy for you. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 17th, 2005, 9:00am LMAO, Casey... Actually, I have a "connection" for kudzu... For a mere $199.99 a month, I can get good high grade kudzu root.... ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 17th, 2005, 12:22pm on 02/16/05 at 18:13:05, nani wrote:
I would be careful about using kudzu with triptans - kudzu changes the serotonin metabolism, and we don't know how, or what interaction there might be with triptans. It might increase the effects of triptans - and too much is not good. Also, interactions with verapamil are possible. Traditional use says to take kudzu for high blood pressure but to avoid it when blood pressure is low. This citation says that a related species lowers blood calcium, so it could theoretically increase the effect of calcium channel blockers. Here is a link to an article I am writing on kudzu - its part of a planned free cluster headache book online. http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/img/icons/ico_pdf.gif There are icons at the top to see it in a pdf format - nicer for printing. http://tinyurl.com/4tfwd Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 17th, 2005, 12:48pm Flo...I want to take this opportunity to thank you again for this info. This treatment has improved my life to a degree that I didn't realize was possible!! I have been in a GREAT mood (even though there has been some unusual stressors in the past few days). Energetic, happy, focused and motivated. I am even more so on the ADD meds, which I have been able to take again. Could the serotonin action be helping me with my mood disorder, too? I am cyclothymic...my normal level of funtctioning falls in the below average range and I have what seem like "manic" highs, which in effect just bring me to normal functioning. Those "normal" moments are usually few and far between. This is my 7th full day of increased functioning and general good moods. Also...I am not using hormone replacement therapy now and it seems kudzu can even help offset future bone loss? Damn...I'm so happy I could just.... ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 17th, 2005, 3:09pm on 02/02/05 at 13:57:14, floridian wrote:
Hokay. So I'm trying to figure this out in dog years. Checked out Kudzu pills at the local Health Food Rip Off store. Bottled 50 ct/$12.95, each pill rated at 615 mg, or 0.6 grams. That's approx 18 pills/day, unless you folks are taking some mighty big horse caps, or I'm missing an important point. Got the owner to check into bulk Kudzo after he quit laffing. Enlighten me, RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 17th, 2005, 3:36pm Randy, I think those amounts are for dried root, not tablets. I'm taking a blend that has 750mg of kudzu. The bottle says I can take 1-2 tablets up to 3X day. I have been taking just one a day...although tonight I will add 1 more tablet. Good luck...love, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 17th, 2005, 3:46pm on 02/17/05 at 15:09:38, Mr. Happy wrote:
That 9 - 15 grams is for whole root boiled in water. For powdered kudzu in a capsule, less is needed (less of the active ingredients dissolve in the tea) For extracts, less is also needed. Also, individuals may vary in how much they need - some do well on 3 mg melatonin or 150 mg verap, others need much more. Read the article: http://tinyurl.com/4tfwd ... it won't enlighten you, but may help you on your journey. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 17th, 2005, 4:04pm on 02/17/05 at 15:46:58, floridian wrote:
Read it, PDF'd it, and saved it in case you fall off the face of the earth tomorrow. What are you Really up to, hiding out down there in Florida.......a planned free cluster headache book online!!! Wowsers, mate. The only thing guarenteed in the pill content was diadzin. Nothing about puerarin or anything else. This is really getting interesting! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 17th, 2005, 4:13pm on 02/17/05 at 16:04:27, Mr. Happy wrote:
Is the bottle green and white? A company with the initials N.W. ? That is an extract - definitely stronger than the plain root. What am I really doing in Florida?? Wandered down this way when I heard that the winters were nice. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Feb 17th, 2005, 4:27pm I think I'd better hit the Kudzu fields before they barbed-wire them off.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by BobG on Feb 17th, 2005, 5:05pm on 02/17/05 at 16:27:39, vig wrote:
Good point. If the drug manufactureres find out that kaduz actually works it will have the FDA outlaw it as a very dangerous substance and then make fake kadzu and get a patent. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by guesst on Feb 17th, 2005, 5:17pm on 02/17/05 at 17:05:42, BobG wrote:
HA! HA! They can't get rid of the stuff in Mississippi! It is a plague you can't kill it, it grows anywere. Don't worry, I'll have my mom get some and send it to you! [smiley=laugh.gif] Edit to drop this link in http://www.cptr.ua.edu/kudzu/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 18th, 2005, 9:32am Day 14: Still cruisin' Took a second tab at 10 PM hoping it wasn't to late to stave off the 10:30 shadow. It wasn't. Very mild 15 min shadows twice yesterday. Ozzy...Shiraj....can you check in? We need more testers, people. I know there are quite a few of you who could use this method... And I'm going to update everyday...just to keep this thread at the top. People need to know about this possibility. nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 18th, 2005, 9:38am Wouldn't be awsome if something this simple, and this legal was the answer we have been hopeing for? Ok, I'm biting and I ordered a bottle. I've checked with all the local and not so local health food stores here and not a one carries Kudzu in any shape or form so I ordered the formula nani takes. So we'll see what happens. Should be here mid next week. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 18th, 2005, 10:33am Got the Kud yesterday. I haven't had the trex in about 4 or 5 days, so I think I am good there, but Flo said something about the Verap. Went to doc today and my BP is normal. This is the formula I got: The bottle says this it is Kudzu Extract, 150 mg. The ingredients say: Amount per Capsule - Kudzu (Pueraria lobata) (root) 165mg Kudzu (Pueraria lobata) (root extract) 150mg (guaranteed 2% [3mg]diadzin) Got a B complex too, though not sure if it is necessary with my multi vitamin. It has more B than the Multi, that's for sure. Did I get the right stuff? Took 1 this morning. I guess we'll see. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 18th, 2005, 10:59am That sounds like kudzu, Clarence. For the B-vitamins, go for more than the poverty level (minimum daily allowance, which is enough to keep you from dying of a nutritional disease). Half a B-50 is what I take on most days. The urine should be bright yellow for much of the day, but if you drink enough water, it should clear up a few times a day. Keeping fingers crossed. |
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Title: Kudzu boost endorphins, blocks calcium Channels Post by floridian on Feb 18th, 2005, 2:02pm Well, the kudzu can act as a calcium channel blocker, reinforcing the concern over interactions with verapamil. Not sure if there is an additive effect, a multiplicative effect, or if it takes a bucket full of kudzu to get the calcium channels blocked. But people who take kudzu should definitely ease into it while monitoring their blood pressure and heart rate regularly. Nani hasn't experienced any negative effects, and she said her bp was still high even though she was taking verap. Quote:
And kudzu may increase endorphins, which could could reduce pain and improve mood. Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 18th, 2005, 4:30pm One other question for the medically minded (I think I mostly mean you floridian...sorry man). What about anti-depressents? I take 20mg fluoxetine (prozac) a day. Should I be worried? Worried about an interaction I mean. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 18th, 2005, 4:43pm The more things a person takes, the more potential interactions. I keep updating the article - today found evidence that kudzu can raise endorphins and acts as a beta blocker. Add this to the list, and the list is pretty long. My guess is that most of these actions are not that strong, they are seen mostly in the lab with high doses. But something in kudzu is active even at normal doses ... which metabolic pathways are really affected?? Prozac is going to increase the amount of serotonin in the receptor (post synaptic reuptake inhibitor). If the 5-ht1 agonism and 5-ht2 antagonism from kudzu comes into play, will that increase the effect of prozac? I don't know. If it only blocks the 5-ht2 receptors, then I don't think it would be a problem. But anything that turns up the serotonin could have some risk if combined with triptans, SSRIs, etc. At this point, I can't say it is safe when taking this, but not when taking that. The history of kudzu suggests it is fairly safe, but most of that experience was not tested with modern meds. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 18th, 2005, 4:44pm floridian, Thanks for all of your research and hard work. I, we all, really appreciate it. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 18th, 2005, 6:45pm Yes, flo, we REALLY appreciate it. love, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 18th, 2005, 8:34pm I hope Glaxo doesn't discover this thread. They would bottle it for $25.00 a pill, outlaw the use without RX. :o BTW, I'm another who appreciates Floridian's hard work. John |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Feb 18th, 2005, 9:41pm add me to list of grateful people Floridian... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 18th, 2005, 10:01pm Next step. We need a pill. Not just any pill. The same pill. By the same manufacturer. With the same goop inside. Otherwise, it's all for one, one for all, or every man for himself. Might as well get it right from the start. You go first. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 18th, 2005, 11:33pm Add me to the list too Flo... and Randy my dear demented friend....with all due love and respect... stop being a party pooper, and raining on our kudzu...lol. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 19th, 2005, 1:28am mmm yesss i think this is working for me too. I was actually late to school today because there was no headache to wake me up at 5:30 on the dot. [smiley=laugh.gif] I got hit once on the second day but day 3 is pain freeeeeee [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 19th, 2005, 8:18am Quote:
Happy's right on this one. ;;D John |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 19th, 2005, 8:43am on 02/19/05 at 08:18:44, Giovanni wrote:
Just playing *Devil's advocate* here for a moment. Why must there be a uniform presentation of this (naturally occuring) form of treatment? One thing we all know is that we are each individuals and we all react differently to the meds we've taken. Some folk have success with Verapamil alone. Some need to couple it with Lithium. Some can use Trex injections where others cannot. Depakote, or Caffergot or others in varried doses work for others. Even the clusterbusters method takes varried doses, and frequency of doses, and even methods of ingestion. Why would we think kudza requires any less variety than other treatment forms? Not wanting to start an arguement..just a healthy debate on why Kudza should be uniformed at a higher level of control than any other treatment method. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 19th, 2005, 11:52am Randy's idea would have probably been the ideal way to test this. Since we didn't start this way and Pegg has a good point about us all responding differently to the same meds, I think we should just continue the way we started. As long as the main ingredient is kudzu, we'll get a good idea on how it works for all of us. Day 15...still cruisin' Shiraj...I'm excited for you...sounds like you're getting some benefit as well. I'm starting to happy dance.... ;;D Edited to add: I am going to slowly taper off Neurontin this week. I will attempt to do the same with the lithium in the future. As I've stated brefore...I will continue Verap because of my high blood pressure. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 19th, 2005, 4:53pm on 02/19/05 at 08:43:54, Redd715 wrote:
I'm not looking for a higher level of control........I'm looking for _ANY_ level of control. I don't know what the hell I'll be taking. It sure isn't what Casey has, or Nani, or Ozzy, or.....well, who knows what I'm taking in what quantitty. http://mushys.com/pix/Kudzufront.jpghttp://mushys.com/pix/Kudzuback.jpg BTW........talked to Ozzy this afternoon, and he said 2 Kudzu tabs were worthless as an abortive at 3 AM. Always keep your O2 handy, RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 19th, 2005, 5:27pm Thanks for letting us know Ozzy... :) Sorry it didn't help that night. :( I found that it had a prevent effect when I began to take one before my regular 10:30 shadow. And it seems to be working as a prevent for me. Still a few very low kip shadows for a few minutes each day. No hits since I started it. Randy, I'm now taking 1500 mgs a day. Again, my formula has additional herbs as it's actually an alcohol recovery blend. But the kudzu is 1500 mgs a day (in 2 tabs). I take one in the morning and one in the evening. Who can come up with a way for us all to post all the info we should be gathering? I've looked at C.H.A.T.S and I must be a log in 'tard...cause I can't get anywhere with it. Is there something similar available? Or can someone come up with something like it? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 19th, 2005, 6:30pm on 02/19/05 at 17:27:50, nani wrote:
I have CHATS probs too......probably some glitch somewhere in a whole BUNCH of programming. It's a fantastic idea, I support it wholeheartedly, and salute Grant and Dan for attempting to put it together. This Kudzu thing is just getting off the ground. It doesn't justify the time and effort to make a CHATS style program to correlate info.....not just yet. I'm harping on us all taking the exact same product in the exact same dosage . We're totally unequipped to do a double blind study, but there's no reason to head into this doing a totally blind study. We NEED some degree of consistency. Sorry if I sound grumpy. Some Tums, a squirt of Preperation H, and all will be right with the world. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 19th, 2005, 6:39pm Darling Randy... http://www.iherb.com/kudzu1.html this is the formula that nani is using, and that I ordered. if we really want to put the test to it, then I think we can all afford 12 bucks...hell we spend less than that at a night at the movies. I looked locally and not one vitamin/healthfood store around ever heard of the stuff, let alone had in on the shelves for sale. Lets try this...see if there are differences in doses needed, just like in other traditional meds. Adjust as needed till it's a bust or there is releif. What say you all? I tend to think that using it as an abortive is a bit too late, but preventive is the way to go. And damn that Ozzy anyway, 3am is my time slot... :P |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 19th, 2005, 7:00pm I'll gladly order a dozen jars of http://www.iherb.com/kudzu1.html and make sure attendant detainees take as directed. With no criticism intended, that is quite a blend of stuff, tho.....not just pure Kudzu. Praise Wotan there's no Ylang Ylang in the mix. I'm taking a research break for the rest of the weekend, and waiting for a Viagra window of opportunity. Let Floridian handle the rest of the details. At least his car tires aren't frozen into the snow covered mud. Ozzy's a PITA on a good day, RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 19th, 2005, 7:09pm So can we agree to at least keep some kind of record on our own. Like a HA diary, but with everything else that's applicable. What kudzu we're taking, others herbs, supplements, normal prevents, any hits/shadows, any other positive or negative effects. (I'm still in a great mood, but that could be the B complex). We can continue to post our successes/failures here, also, to give others a chance to see it. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 19th, 2005, 7:19pm http://mushys.com/pix/necklace4.gif This is still a viable option too.... :-X ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 20th, 2005, 12:42am hm i got hit one more time today.. I wonder what happened yesterday to give me a pain free day. [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Giovanni on Feb 20th, 2005, 8:31am Nature's Way Kudzu 3 bottles for about $21.00 plus $6.00 shipping. http://store.yahoo.com/herbal-remedies-usa/14550.html |
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Title: KudzuRe: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Feb 20th, 2005, 9:11am OK Nani ,I've been reading all thru this thread about the Kudzu.I have researched it before and one of the things I've come across is that dosage is according to a persons weight.Do you have any info on that? I'm willing to try anything once and have just about done that.But after work today I might have to stop by the local health food store and see if they have what I need.I see that it comes with different additives.Do the ones mentioned with B-12 seem to work better? [smiley=huh.gif]David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 20th, 2005, 9:54am This is the Kud I have: http://www.nutraceutical.com/search/view_product.cfm?product_index=3680 I am feeling pretty good. No major hits, no major shadows. I have to be honest - I don't know if it is this Kudzu or not. However, I ain't gonna stop taking it. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ErikY on Feb 20th, 2005, 10:08am I had been reading this thred as well and after a very mild hit on Friday afternoon, I stopped at a vitamin world and picked up some of the natures way kudzu. I am on a LOT of stuff right now, all natrual and have been extremely strict in diet and lots and lots of water, but I have not gotten a hit since I started the kudzu. I have had some feelings is the best way I can describe it that the monster is still lurking, i feel a very very light pressure in my temple and over my eye (where my hits are) but they are very dull and cause me no problems at all. They tend to last about the amount of time a cluster would last. Not sure exactly what is working, but whatever it is, I am not abou to stop. I have been taking the following: Kudzu 3 times per day 2 pills each time. B-complex Chelated calcium magnesium ginko biloba garlic/paresely coenzyme q10 My diet has consisted of nothing but plain chicken breast, fennel (sp?), pineaple, white rice, eggs, broccoli, almonds and tons and tons of water. Before bed I have been taking 4 benadryl and purposely wake up at around 3 to take 2 more benadryl. Based on the theory of not going into any REM's, as I was getting hit bad every night around 2am. Before my mild hit on friday, I had not had one in about 36 hours, so I dont have a huge timeframe to go on, but taking it day by day and close to 48 hours without any hit has be very nice. I will continue to post my results either positive or negative. GL everyone, Erik |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 20th, 2005, 10:26am I forgot to say that I am taking 2 pills daily. One in the morning, one in the evening. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 20th, 2005, 11:36am Wow...it's nice to see so many coming on board. :) Here's hoping we all find lasting relief. David, I haven't done much research myself, so I really don't know about dosage and weight. Perhaps the clerk at the store will have info. Or someone here? Here's to many PF days!!! love, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 20th, 2005, 12:37pm A quick look at the three brands mentioned - Solaray (http://www.nutraceutical.com/search/view_product.cfm?product_index=3680), Nature's Way (http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/kudzu.html), and Planetary Formulas (http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/kudzu1.html) show all 3 to be pretty much in the same ballpark. Solaris has twice the daidzin as Nature's Way per pill, but you only need one pill per dose, not two. Planetary Formulas doesn't list daidzin content, but is probably somewhere in between the other two. The prices listed on line are 1/2 that of my local Rip Off Health Store. Let's keep up the recruiting to see if we have a boom or a bust. Can it get more interesting than this? RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by cat14 on Feb 20th, 2005, 2:21pm I am starting tomorrow but nervous, you said no trex shots, right?02 doesn't work good for me. Also how much is it by my weight or not? I already take b complex so what if it has it in it already, is that okay? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 20th, 2005, 3:35pm That is correct Cat...don't use trex...the research is that the kudzu works on the same receptors. If you can possibly ride the hits out a few days before trying this I would certainly recommend that would be the best plan. *note I am not a doctor* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by cat14 on Feb 20th, 2005, 3:45pm Thank you Redd!!!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 20th, 2005, 11:20pm Kudzu treatment working. Day 5 i report no pain all day. Slept through the night perfectly. god bless whoever found out about this nasty smelling crap :D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 21st, 2005, 12:54am That's good news, shiraj! Day 16: Some trigeminal nerve activity, 1 tiny, shortlived shadow. I am on day two of decreased Neurontin. (about 2/3 my normal dose) :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by catlind on Feb 21st, 2005, 3:23am Here are some things that need to be kept track of so we can look into this a little further: Episodic or Chronic Male or Female Age What other meds are you taking? Are you taking kudzu blend, or pure kudzu? What dose are you taking? How often? What was the pattern of your headaches before you started the kudzu? What is the pattern of your headaches now? For the females, I'd be interested in knowing how many of you are menopausal (herbals have a different impact on menopausal women) I'm off to get me some kudzu and see how well it controls the mild shadows that are around and see if it works to kill the migraines that cohabitate with my clusters. (oops I said the M word ;) ) Cat |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 21st, 2005, 8:08am Update: Today will be day 5. I have to say that the last 3 days have been pretty damn good. My head hasn't felt that good for a while. I haven't had that much sleep for the same while. I get migraine pain as well (intense dual sided headache in forehead/temple, not centred in eye), and that has decreased significantly. No real shadows or clusters to speak of. Until last night. Minor shadow as I went to bed, though I was able to go to sleep. This morning I woke up with a minor, though frustrating, cluster. Note that it did not wake me up, as they normally do. I woke up, and it was there. I am nervous about getting anybody's hopes up. On the other hand, I ain't gonna stop taking it - I feel pretty good. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 21st, 2005, 9:51am Hello all, been on vacation, nice and sunny over here. So just before we hit the pool and the beach here is my mini report: (I haven't read all the messages so this might be redundant) This is week 2 of Kudzu, increased it again to 2 (150 mg) capsules, the manufacturer is Nature's Plus. I also take 3 mg of Melatonin at night. Stopped the melatonin for two days, had a couple of drinks and then at 3:00 am, got hit. Took two capsules as a possible abortive. Didn't work. Had to wait it out. Since then, I've had nothing. It seems that there is potential for shadows though. Shadows for me come at night and as I wake up (normal times for when I take the kudzu) so after taking the kudzu, shadows dissapear for the most part. So far so good. Will report more when I get back from vacation. It's niiice over here..... Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 21st, 2005, 9:58am This is good news Casey and Oz! Cat: Chronic (with severe episodes) 47 Female 360 mgs Verap, 150mgs lithium, 900mgs Neurontin (down from 1200mgs) Taking a kudzu blend I've never had a real "pattern" HAs came and went at will, except rarely at night. My normal was about 4-6 hours of intermittant shadows and 4-5 hits a day (generally below k7) Since starting: no hits, some trigeminal nerve activity (no pain) and maybe 2 15 minute shadows ( k .5 - k1) a day. I am menopausal, but not using any HRT right now. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ErikY on Feb 21st, 2005, 10:52am Erik Male 30 Episodes every 5 years Natures Way, 2 pills, 3 times per day. Originally always got hit 2am and 3PM Also taking B-Complex and some other supplements I started Friday afternoon and had zero hits until last night. Was over 48 hours without a hit, but had felt activity in the temple and above eye, but no actual hits in that time perriod. Around 8:00 PM last night I got one, nothing at my usual time, but it did definately come on. It was about a 6 which was manageable, but the thing that was interesting was I was able to get rid of it qucik, 15 min. without any drugs at all. I ran up and down my steps till I could not do it anymore, followed by a glass of water and ice on back of head and neck. Went away but still felt the activity. Then, out of nowhere it came back at 9:30, again went away within 15 min. Getting rid of these quick is not normal for me, they usually last a long time, at least an hour. I take the kudzu at 9am, 1PM and 10PM. After the second one last night I thought I was in for a very rough night as I felt the activity. Took the kudzu around 10, and took my usual benedryl before bed. Woke up around 2:30 to go to the bathroom, more benadryl, no hits last night. I feel pretty good today so far, definately feel the activity, but not as much as last night. We will see how it goes. The hits have been less frequent, and not as intense, and went away fairly easily. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ErikY on Feb 21st, 2005, 3:17pm Unfortunately, I just got hit with my usual 3:00 hit. :-[ Fortunately, I am finding a way to deal with them, but that is not for this thread. I will keep updating my status as I am taking the kadzu and have already taken it twice today. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 21st, 2005, 3:20pm Eric...how many mgs are you taking? I'm taking 750 mgs twice a day (1500mgs total) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ErikY on Feb 21st, 2005, 3:29pm on 02/21/05 at 15:20:33, nani wrote:
I am taking the Natures Way which I believe to be 150mg per dosage (I dont have the bottle in front of me), of which I am taking 3 times per day. If I am right, I am only taking 450mg per day, may not be enough. I way over 210 so I may need much much more. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 21st, 2005, 3:34pm You may want to increase.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 21st, 2005, 4:55pm ErikY: yeah try upping your dose.I weigh around 175 and I was taking only 1 750 mg dose for the first 2 days and it didnt do much. I pound down 2 of those stinky bad boys now every day and night and i feel great. Forget those 150 mg pills get the big ones from planetary formulas. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ErikY on Feb 21st, 2005, 4:57pm I think I was mistaken, I think they are actually 613 mg. I looked at the post someone else had put up about the natures way and it says 613. If so, That is a lot to take 3 times per day. Have to check out the other brand. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 21st, 2005, 5:03pm Nature's WayTM has "certified" 613 mg/cap. The jar recommends 2 caps 3X daily...... 3678 mg/ 6 mg Daidzin per day. Not sure how they mix this stuff. That may be the equivalent of gnawing 4 lbs of root hourly, or 1 tablespoon gnawed twice daily, or something. This is all still pretty much a crap shoot. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by pam s on Feb 21st, 2005, 11:28pm on 02/17/05 at 15:46:58, floridian wrote:
Wow, floridian, thanks for your efforts! I am touched when people use the internet for unselfish humanitarian purposes such as this. I do have a lot of notes on CH but I've always wished there was something more comprehensive, all in one place. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 22nd, 2005, 12:21am I am Floridian's new biggest fan. His research has always been helpful...but now.... well, I'm still giddy. ;;D Day 17: only 1, yes 1, easy shadow this afternoon. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 22nd, 2005, 6:20am Well, what can I say? I got greedy. My own fault. Had a beer last night. It was good. But I woke up this morning with a hit. It hurt. Couldn't sleep. Why couldn't I leave well enough alone? I had to tempt the Kudzu... Hopeful I will get back on track very soon. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Rock_Lobster on Feb 22nd, 2005, 8:04am Interesting thread. Been shadowing lots lately, so ordered two bottles of Natures Way brand from vitacost.com for $16.45 shipped. Vig already has his car loaded up with a shipment for the frozen north... http://overstated.net/photos/kudzu/kudzu-car.jpg |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 22nd, 2005, 8:20am [smiley=crackup.gif] It even stripped off the blue paint...that be some strong medicine.. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 22nd, 2005, 8:49am ROTFL Rock! [smiley=laugh.gif] I woke up with a K4 shadow this morning and started thinking it was all too good to be true. :( It lasted 5 minutes! :) Sorry, Casey... :( I hope you're relief gets back on track ASAP. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Feb 22nd, 2005, 9:22am on 02/22/05 at 08:04:08, Rock_Lobster wrote:
Wow thanks for that site Rock...ordered from there much cheaper than UK rates even including shipping! (You can be my hero for today!! ;) ) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Ellick on Feb 23rd, 2005, 8:00am I'd really like to try this out at the moment. Trouble is I am using 2 to 3 Imigran 20mg nasal sprays a day and 160mg per verapimil. If can get on to O2 then I guess I could give it a go. We have Chinese herbalists locally so I am sure I could obtain it relatively easily. Ellick. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Feb 23rd, 2005, 9:19am I had been only on O2 and my prevents (Zonegran at night) and I got some Kudzu and got to try it for only one full day and night before I had to go for the Maxalt....It was my own fault....my O2 ran out and my 3 nightly hits were too much for me to handle with showers and ice......so I took a Maxalt....crap.....I want to keep trying the Kudzu.....BUT.....Can I?????? I had just one Maxalt at around 3:30am..... Help... Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 23rd, 2005, 9:52am Karen and Ellick, I think the advice to not use kudzu and triptans is based on the fact that kudzu has triptan like effects on your body (and brain). I still would not suggest that you do that. If you could tough it out long enough to get the triptans out of your system and start kudzu as a prevent, I think you would find it helpful. I have no idea what the half life of the triptan drugs are, or how long before they're gone...perhaps a call to the pharmacy would tell you? I'm still cruising....day 19 Yesterday I had a "regular" headache. Probably a tension one. It bugged the crap out of me...because I think I've finally gotten used to very little discomfort. I took two ibuprofen and was back to my almost PF self in 30 minutes. :) Life is good. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 23rd, 2005, 11:42am This whole issue of standardization and some brands having more or less daidzen is a problem. In my case with only 300 mg of concentrated root extract. Each capsule: 150 mg. / 1.5% Daizen, 0.95% Daidzen, I may be taking less than most. The results so far, I think it is worth considering and that individuals may adjust their doses up or down until they get the desired results Disclaimer: these statements are my personal opinion, I'm not a doctor, consult with your doctor before adding, reducing, or withdrawing from any medication. Only shadows last night and this morning, but it may be due to change in weather, pressure (airplane) and sleep amount. I'm back from vacation, so my guess is that in a couple of days I should be back to "normal" . It will be interesting to see late March when I go to Alaska....(may have to increase melatonin...or decrease it....hummmm) Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Ellick on Feb 23rd, 2005, 4:42pm Nanni, Thanks for the advice, I will certainly follow it. I hope to get 02, if it works I will try Kudzu and I will remember to check out how long it takes triptans to vanish. I am really happy for you that Kudzu looks like it is working for you. I think true bliss is when you get relief from agony in all it's forms. My best wishes to you, Ellick.x |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 23rd, 2005, 5:25pm on 02/23/05 at 16:42:43, Ellick wrote:
I think you worded that backwards. 02 is a great abortive that will not interfer with the efficacy of kudzu should it work for you. Taking kudzu and the triptans at the same time is a no no. Reason being both chemicals work on the same receptors in much the same way. PLEASE don't get confused on what steps you should take. Like any other medication or treatment course, you MUST use them correctly to gain the benifits. Any other way you risk not only the failure of the medication, but could also risk your health. *I'm not a doctor or medical professional, but this is standard knowlege, and good advice* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy on Feb 23rd, 2005, 5:40pm Ditto....thanks for the info....If I hadn't run out of O2....I'd still be ok for the Kudzu....I have it....I guess I'll ask the pharmacist asap.....'cause I want to get back started experimenting on the KUDZU!!!!! Love y'all, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Ellick on Feb 23rd, 2005, 6:09pm I understand quite clearly not to take Triptan and Kudzu at the same time. I also understand that using 02 is ok with Kudzu. I did not realise that I said this a way that looked opposite. I agreed with Nanni and said I would follow her advice. Thankyou for checking it out with me. I know I have to be careful with the treatments and how they are mixed. I currently use Sumatriptan nasal spray 2 to3 times a day and 160mg verapamil. I need to use the sumatriptan at the moment as I seem to be getting very quick onset and very intense pain within 10 minutes. I hope to replace the sumatritan with 0" (which I have'nt used before). I would only start using Kudzu if 02 gets me out of the deep pits and I am claer of any Triptans in my body. I am grateful for your advice. Thankyou. Ellick. x |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 23rd, 2005, 7:43pm on 02/23/05 at 17:25:57, Redd715 wrote:
Actually, there is NO Proof of anything....just possibili-tittes. There may or may not be an interference connection. I have no problem walking on the wild side when seeking a PF solution. Ain't telling anybody what to do, just stating my preferences. I love Beta testing, and I love O2. Me and my damned short ECH cycles, RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 23rd, 2005, 8:40pm on 02/23/05 at 19:43:56, Mr. Happy wrote:
Ok RJ...possibili-whateveryousaids. Still I would tend to err on the side of caution, as we all are aware of the pitfals of mixing triptans. If the chemicals work the same receptors, the poskabilitees of adverse interaction would be my concern. Pegg (who's mighty patial to breathing thank you) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Feb 24th, 2005, 12:19am OK.....It has been 20 hours since my last Maxalt......Maybe after a good night's sleep ......or not....at least aborting with O2.....I can start my Kudzu experiment again.... How many days before anyone noticed a difference???? Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 24th, 2005, 12:47am Im still pain freeee! Btw i mixed triptans. I got a bad hit on the third day of kudzu so i took a 2mg shot of imitrex. I felt fine and i havent had a hit since then. I think this is day 8 [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 24th, 2005, 12:53am That's great news Shiraj!! I was wondering about you today. Hope it keeps working! Karen, I felt better the next day. I just shadowed some. The longer I've been on it, the shorter the shadows have been. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Feb 24th, 2005, 1:05am Thanks Nani......Thanks to you all for the help.....Now....if I would just get my stubborn butt to bed.....I am sooooo exhausted......but I was hit soooooooo hard last night I guess subconsiously I'm fighting sleep..... My wonderful, precious husband.....conks out at 9:00pm like clockwork.....I, on the otherhand get so aprehensive during cluster season.....working on month 6...... Bless you guys, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Feb 24th, 2005, 10:20am My headaches stopped about a month ago but lately I've been getting some very unpleasant shadows at the same time that my headaches came. So I've started using kudzu for the last two days and it seems to have stopped the shadows quite nicely. It's not a test with the real CHs but it's suggestive and it's making life better. I'd tried the kudzu about a week ago and the shadows went away. Thinking that it was just the end of the episode I stopped. Guess there's a long tail to this one. I'm taking one Planetary Formulas 750 mg tablet at night to stop my 6am shadows. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 24th, 2005, 10:59am Has anyone who fits the below criteria also received postive results from this KUDZU stuff ? (1) Has naturally occuring Cluster Headaches NOT caused by surgerys, brain anurysyms, car wrecks and/or accidents etc. ? (2) That ONLY gets Cluster Headaches and NOT Migraines, CPH, Icepicks and other types of headaches ? (3) That is Episodic and NOT Chronic ? (4) In the middle or PEAK of your cycle ? I'm asking because I'm a true believer that there are some commonalities in treatments associated with the type of situation you get your Clusters. Congrats to those that it is working. Glad to hear you're PF and hope that KUDZU stuff keeps working for you. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 24th, 2005, 12:20pm To clarify....I had episodic CH for 26 years before my brain aneurysm. I think Shiraj is episodic and in what should be the peak of his cycle. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sandie99 on Feb 24th, 2005, 12:44pm started kudzu today.... :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 24th, 2005, 1:25pm I am a natural clusterhead. No trauma here (except that of looking in the mirror every day. I am episodic. About my cycle, this one has been a rollercoaster, so who the hell knows whether it is peak or not. I can tell you that my head hurt pretty bad, and then it felt better. I think the Kudzu has helped a lot. Other types of headaches: I have never been "diagnosed" with any, but I do get headaches that are dual sided and center in the forehead, raher than oned-sided in the eye (though, unfortunately, I get those too.) I would call them migraines. Now that that is settled... I am shadowing a bit in the mornings and evenings, about the times I usually get hit. The shadows aren't too bad, and don't last too long. Also, I feel the "trigeminal activity" that some have reported. What that is I don't know, I would say very light shadows. I just "feel" the right side of my head. All that said, there has been a marked improvement for me since I started taking the kudzu. Today is Day 8. Yesterday, I moved from 2 pills/day to 3 pills. I am on the Solaray: http://www.nutraceutical.com/search/view_product.cfm?product_index=3680 Hope it is going well for all, Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 24th, 2005, 2:12pm on 02/24/05 at 12:44:20, sandie99 wrote:
Yeah...you go girl! I think you'll find some relief, Sandie. I really do! Casey, I'm glad you're back to getting improvement. Get in the boat, people. The destination is PF land! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy on Feb 24th, 2005, 2:24pm I've been diagnosed episodic CH-been that way for 15 years with one year reprieve.....I usually have a cycle the 10th month after the last one finishes....Unfortunately this is becomming the longest of record yet....going on the 6th month.... I occasionally get migraines and some sinus and tension headaches too....I definately know the difference.....I had such a bad night the other night that my co-worker tried to lift the skin back up on my right eye(my cluster side)...She said it looked like I had a stroke or something....ONE HARD NIGHT WITHOUT O2.....Got some now....phew!!!!! And I started again this morning with the Kudzu....I am taking 900mgs this am....and plan to take the same this evening as the 750mg am and pm was not doing much....but of course I only got to take it for a day or so......I'm just anxious....can you tell? ;;D OK.....I'll keep going and let you know how it goes....I also am taking soloray 150mgs....but much more than one or 2 pills... Bless y'all, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 24th, 2005, 2:41pm Blue, I was formerly a natural episodic CHer for 14 years, then two years ago I became chronic. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 24th, 2005, 3:55pm I'm really getting excited about what you all are saying here. Sorry if I ask alot of tough questions, but I'm a big skeptic when it comes to Clusters if you can't tell. ;) Hope it works for you too Karen. Please keep us posted. One more question: If this stuff works like a Triptan and you're not suppose to take Triptans, are you flurting with disaster and have you checked with your doctor about it ? It just seems that if your constantly contricting those blood vessels it may not be a good thing. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Feb 24th, 2005, 5:27pm Having just had a day from hell the nicest thing happend. I got an email saying "Your Order #661331 placed with VitaCost Online Store has been shipped to the consolidation center, where it is being prepared for international shipping." NOTHING has helped today. I'd have eaten ground glass earlier if someone told me they thought it would have helped. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Feb 24th, 2005, 6:06pm [b][/b]Holy cow!!What a thread!!I just started Kudzu.150 X 2 a day,Tuesday.Going to give it a chance.Still having some shadows,but no CH kip 5 or above.Saying a little prayer(wait make that a big Prayer) it works.I'll let everyone know how it works out. :)David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Feb 24th, 2005, 6:44pm on 02/24/05 at 15:55:31, BlueMeanie wrote:
Like you and your balding pate have a corner on skepticism around here??? on 02/24/05 at 15:55:31, BlueMeanie wrote:
Actually, none of us know anything. Mahatma Floridian is the master guru of info at this point, and he's the one that stated they may "trip" over one another......possibly.....kinda. Nobody has any idea what will happen if mixed. No use asking a doc or pharmacist. They have no clue. We're in uncharted territory. This whole thing is like a Star Trek show, Kudzu style. Damned interesting, too. No telling how much Placebo Effect is involved here....... Once we dig out of this filthy snowstorm tomorrow, maybe I'll chaw down a fistful of Kuzu pills, and do a snort of trex. Beta testing has always interested me, but I want to make sure the ambulance can get me the hell out of this place in case I've "tripped" over an important detail. Exciting times, RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Feb 24th, 2005, 7:36pm Hello - I'm an old newbie! Found this site 5 years ago when I first experienced CH and thought I was going to die. This forum was a Godsend. After 4 months of CH, then only tiny, very manageable CH every now and then for the next 5 years. Until now. So, I'm back, and I never should have left you guys. Found this forum about Kudzu and got excited. Read the posts this afternoon at work, ran to my local health food store and picked up a bottle of Nature's Way Kudzu Root - 613mg capsules (same as Mr. Happy). Came home and took two right away, along with one B complex and one White Willow Bark (400mg). The guy at the store recommended Willow Bark as an asprin substitute to take twice a day as a possible preventative. Hey! I'll try anything at this point. I am female, aged 58, and apparently an episodic, but my episodes seem very unusual in that I had severe CH (head bangers) five years ago, then maybe k3 or k4 now and then, and now back to the head bangers. I take Imitrex tablets only when I know the CH is going to be a doozy, and I've learned to tell by the speed at which the thing comes on. Other than that, I take 3 extra strength Excedrin, ice packs, and tons of water, and, of course, those aren't working very well. I am menopausal, not taking any HRT. My CH start in the evenings - right around dinner time - great for a diet - maybe I'll lose weight. I will have a mild one at around 6:00, then around 10:00 a 7 or 8. Last night, it was reversed, had the biggie at 6:30, and it finally eased enough so I could fall asleep around 11:00, but I've had shadows all day, and right now am having about a 3. I'm excited to give Kudzu a try and will do my best to keep a diary of symptoms. Wish me luck . Keep the faith and be PF ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 24th, 2005, 7:48pm Sandy, sorry its hitting you hard, but glad you are in for the "trial." I know that you read all the posts here. I would just say to think about it before taking the imitrex in conjunction with the Kud. At least until Mr. Happy trys it out tomorrow and reports. If he reports from home, we might be ok, if from the hospital, we will know... ;) Kidding aside, I really hope it works out for you. Sorry your here, but welcome aboard. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kris_in_SJ on Feb 24th, 2005, 8:27pm I've been taking volumes of notes off this thread! Since I'm a 4-5 yr cycler and just finished this past summer, it will be (I hope) a while yet. But, i'ts so exciting to see my chronic friends finally getting relief! My biggest hope is that our episodic friends will keep posting their results, and (of course) that the results for them will also be positive. Perhaps we should all move south and start a "cluster colony"? As a group, we could probably help with the threat of Kudzu invasion. Kris |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ErikY on Feb 24th, 2005, 8:54pm Since I upped the dose of the Nature's way to 3 pills, 3 times per day, no hits for me. A few shadows here and there, but no actual hits. I should mention that I have also upped my water intake big time and water is a big preventive for me. Whatever it has been, over 72 hours without a hit. My cycle definatley is not over because I still feel activity in my eye and temple that I dont get when i am not getting the HA's. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Feb 24th, 2005, 9:18pm Oh well, guess I've joined the crowd. Went today and picked up the Kudzu... I finished a Pred taper on the 25th of January. I had 42 days of total PF time. However, 2 nights ago, the bastard came back. I'm sick of this shit! I hate these fuckin' ha's and the way they make me feel. Sure hope the K works....if not, I may take the route of BobW and CB. Good luck all, Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Feb 24th, 2005, 9:34pm RJ, I once had a conversation with a top neuorologist at Mass General Hospital about how they go about testing new medication for migraine and cluster. He said migraine tests are very difficult since there is a 50% placebo effect so you are never quite sure if the medication really helps. On the other hand, cluster is easy since the placebo effect is 0%. Based on that observation and lots of personal experience I think that Nani and all the rest are getting genuine relief from the kudzu. The only real question at this point is whether it only works for a small fraction of CH sufferers, as is true of so many meds, or if it works for lots of people, like Imitrex. Let's hope it's as effective as Imitrex, but only time and experience will tell. Maybe the webmaster can add kudzu to the medication survey so that we can learn how effective it is as more people take it. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 25th, 2005, 12:03am Oh goody...it's great to see so many on board. Looks like we got some beta testing going on. This is really exciting...I hope it works as well for everyone as it has for me!! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by unsolved1 on Feb 25th, 2005, 12:10am Interesting topic. So how many are trying this and how many people are benefiting from it ?? Should I be running to buy this yet ? Unsolved |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kevin_M on Feb 25th, 2005, 12:29am on 02/24/05 at 15:55:31, BlueMeanie wrote:
Good ones Blue. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sandie99 on Feb 25th, 2005, 1:12am I started kudzu yesterday and so far.... NO CH! And no shadows. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Magman on Feb 25th, 2005, 5:10am Floridian, Thank you for all of the research and compilation of facts presented here and in your online document. Seeing the interest, number of people involved in this 'beta-test', and the need to track the results, I have added kudzu to CHATS under 'Alternative Meds Treatment'. I urge all those now 'beta-testing' kudzu to use the CHATS system to track your progress. If you do not have a login or are having difficulties with your current CHATS user-id/password, please email me at chats-beta@kdlltd.com. I will provide a toll-free number for CHATS assistance in my reply email message. Warm regards, -dan PS Randy....your chats login was just tested and confirmed. Email on the way with particualrs. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 25th, 2005, 9:28am Thanks, Dan!! OK- I'm going to start doing this asap...everyone else in? BTW...One shadow yesterday and a tension HA. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 25th, 2005, 9:31am Thanks, Dan, I think CHATS is the best way to gather data in a consistent format. And whether people are trying kudzu or not, please think about beta-testing this important software. I agree with PaulL that there isn't really a placebo effect for clusters (believing in a sugar pill will not stop the beast). But there is problem with the unpredictability of clusters - if an episodic starts a new treatment a few days before their cycle winds down, they may mistakenly believe that the treatment was of value. I don't think that is what is going on here (experienced chronics and episodics are reporting rapid improvement!), but systematic observation is a good thing. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Racer1_NC on Feb 25th, 2005, 12:39pm Well folks...count me in on the Kudzu testing. I've purchased the NATURE'S WAY Kudzu Root 613mg bottle. My local health food store had 2 different types, but I selected this one because it seems several people here have started on this brand so I will as well. I'm cronic, but the CH is controlled well by Verapamil 240 x 1. I taper off the Verap about every 6 weeks, just to check if the CH is still hanging around......in 2-3 days the beast returns. My plan is to start the Kudzu, and then taper off the Verap in about a week. Time will tell......but damn I hope this works. Bill |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 25th, 2005, 1:00pm I'm in also. Mine is supposed to arrive via UPS today as none of our local healthfood and vitamn stores were carrying the Nature's Way. Just can't stop humming that song everytime I see the name "It's nature's way of telling you something's wrong It's nature's way of telling you in a song" I ran around checked about 5 stores -- so call ahead and save the running around. An alternate brand had the wonderful subtitle on the label "For alcohol cessation". No, how about Cluster Headaches for alcohol cessation...... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ArCane on Feb 25th, 2005, 3:24pm I have a question about kudzu. I know everyone is trying it out and not all the results are in, but I was wondering. Im an episodic clusterhead. Since this stuff is working for you chronics and helping episodics in a cycle, can this help me prevent a cycle all together? Im not in a cycle now and Im curious. If I take it everyday could it help prevent a cycle from starting or prolong my PF time? Would it be worth a try? How would I know its working? Thanks all. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 25th, 2005, 3:55pm on 02/25/05 at 15:24:40, ArCane wrote:
Good questions. My guess is that if you know a cycle is coming on, it might prevent it or blunt it, but that is speculation. How would you know its working? My cycles are only in the summer, but not every summer, so I wouldn't know for sure that it is working. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by pattik on Feb 25th, 2005, 4:38pm I'm episodic and in a remission right now, but I'm going to give it a try at the first sign of a cycle starting up. I have been fairly good at identifying the beginnings of cycles over the years, and hopefully, although it would be anecdotal, I would be able to see if kudzu makes any kind of difference. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Melissa on Feb 25th, 2005, 4:47pm Just wanted to say I've been following this thread since it began. I feel very encouraged by it and want to thank those who are trying this possible preventative for experimenting. Hopefully, if things go well, I'll try this route this year as I am expected to get my cycle in Sept. thx, mel |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Feb 25th, 2005, 5:15pm Started Kudzu last night - two capsules 613 mg each. Had small k3 around 7:00, which is usually my VERY bad time, so this was great. The rest of the evening went fine, some shadows and tingles, but no real hit. Bed at 11:00, and was awakened at 1:00 AM with a CH. This is really odd, because I have NEVER been awakened in the middle of the night with a HA. Got up, took 3 excedrin, 12 oz glass of water and ice pack figuring I'd be up for quite a while. Low and behold - 15 minutes later - GONE! Wonderful. Went back to bed and slept the rest of the night. Took two more Kudzu this morning - some shadows and activity - no hits. Two more at lunch about 1:00, back to work, and at 2:00 got hit - again not a biggie, and lasted about 15 to 20 minutes with excedrin and ice pack. So, bottom line - less than 24 hours and I DO see some improvement. Some oddities also - someone else (can't remember who) posted that he had noticed shadows and activity on the opposite side of his head. Me too! Wonder what this means???? So far mixed results - but promising. Gonna keep going. By the way - my urine is the brightest color yellow I've ever seen. Is this from the Kudzu or the B complex I'm taking in the morning? How do I get to the chats??? I apparently don't have a CHAT log in or something because it won't let me in. Have a PF night. Sandy [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Feb 25th, 2005, 8:32pm Well, good news from me... I started the Kudzu yesterday.....had no shadows last night.....and NO CH!!! YEEHAW!!!!!!!!!! Hope this really works..... [smiley=huh.gif] Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 25th, 2005, 10:26pm Jean...repeat after me...it will work, it will work, it will work... I'm so glad you found some relief with this. It seems the news keeps getting better and better... :) Sandy, maybe you should try a dose at bedtime to see if it keeps the nighttime hits away. Me...still doin' great! Again not 100% PF, but tiny shadows for a few minutes here and there. I can live with this! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Damon on Feb 26th, 2005, 1:27am Thank you all for the valueable info. Will start trying tomorrow after neuro appt. I am curious about one thing, Kudzu works on alcohol cravings and alcohol triggers HA's, is there a connection? [smiley=huh.gif] PFDAN to you all, Damon |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Feb 26th, 2005, 3:17am I'm up after sucking O2 for 2nd CH hit of the night....Started the Kudzu the other day again....taking around 600 mgs am and anothe 600mgs pm....still get the 3 hits in my sleep ....11:30....1:30 and 3:30....then I have to get up to go to work at 6:30 .....how long can this go on? Will keep taking the Kudzu....I'm taking 250mgs of Zonegran as well in the pm and Excedrins PM when necessary and lots of O2....I wonder which brand of Kudzu seems to be the best....I have noticed a tightness in my chest during the day which is what I was experiencing earlier in my cycle which I thought was due to my triptal intake.....thus switching to the "back to the O2....natural way".....Anybody else egt the tightning of the chest? Karen PS....I couldn't log into that journal things either...any clues? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ArCane on Feb 26th, 2005, 4:37am on 02/26/05 at 01:27:07, Damon wrote:
Good question! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Feb 26th, 2005, 7:14am Thank you Dan, I'm in CHATS. Please give me some basic information on what type of information you think I should enter - how detailed? Remember, I'm a real Newbie, I know I need to specify what I'm taking, dosage, times of day, etc., and report CH, HA, side effectcs. Is there some specific format I should follow? Sorry to be such a dummy, but I don't want to screw up results by doing something stupid. Thanks Sandy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Feb 26th, 2005, 9:14am OK.I've read thru many threads and seen all kinds of dosages.I've got Kudzu Extract 150 mg.Right now I'm taking 1-2X a day.Should I increase dosage?Or stay with this and see if it works,or increase it right away?Started on Tuesday so I'm in my 5th day and Shadows have still been hanging around with some spikes but no real kick ass CH.For as much of this stuff that grows in the south is sure is expensive.Solray 150 mg. 60 caps.is $17.00 anyone have a cheaper source? [smiley=huh.gif]David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Feb 26th, 2005, 10:06am Legal Status: WSDA Quarantined Plant annual Kudzu Festival in Blythewood, Georgia. Detrimental: Kudzu is a highly aggressive invasive plant which is extremely difficult to control once established. According to researchers at Clemson University, lands infested with Kudzu are generally good for only one purpose – growing Kudzu. Kudzu is so aggressive it covers and smothers all other plants in its path resulting in solid single species stands eliminating native species and natural diversity. Trees may be covered with kudzu and damaged by the weight of the vegetation resulting in loss of limbs or tree death from insufficient light necessary for photosynthesis. Once established, Kudzu can render lands unusable for timber production or agriculture. The Congressional Office of Technology estimated the economic costs of Kudzu at $50 million annually (Hoots and Stewart, 1997). Control costs are estimated to increase by $6 million per year (Agricultural Research Service) as landowners struggle to contain this plant. The weight of the vines can bring down power lines and collapse buildings. pictures to follow |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Feb 26th, 2005, 10:38am on 02/26/05 at 09:14:23, toolong wrote:
David, Solaray is what I have. Here in Canada it is $26 for 60 caps. Even with the exchange that is no good. I am taking it 3x a day and it is doing well for me. folridian can correct me, in fact, anyone can, but I am not sure it is the size of the capsule that matters, but the amount of the active ingredient that is included. The Solaray is 2% daidzin, or, 3mg. I should go back and read the articles floridian posted again, because I am not sure which ingredient affects the receptors. I am going to taper my verapamil, as, I am having trouble sleeping again. When I was on 480mg of verap I was having shortness of breath and dizziness, and a really hard time sleeping because I couldn't breathe, possibly from low bp. I went down to 320mg, and started sleeping fine, with no dizziness. Now up to 3 of the Solaray Kudzu capsules a day. Since Kudzu can also be effective for BP, maybe, since I am having trouble sleeping, maybe it is a bit low. I don't know. But I will taper the verap starting today anyway. As for headaches. A few minor shadows, and no hits. Last night I had a wicked headache, but it wasn't a cluster. Dual sided in the temples across forehead. Not centered in right eye. Tension? Migraine? I don't know. Took 2 Midrin and I was fine. And, no rebound. Today is day 10. So far so good. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Feb 26th, 2005, 11:09am Recap of day 2 on Kudzu - Been taking 2 cap, 613 mg each since 6:30 pm Thursday 2/24. First night and yesterday afternoon at work, as posted earlier, a little strange. Last night and this morning, even stranger. Pretty much PF most of the afternoon and early evening yesterday. About 9:00 last night, started to get a hit, so took my excedrin and ice pack - 15 minutes later - all gone - wonderful. But, and this is a big BUT! For the rest of the night, I got hit after hit after hit, just just shadows, real hits, each one stronger than the last one. I would have about a 30 to 45 minute break between hits, and each hit would last about 15 to 20 minutes. Ended up taking another three excedrin, (6 in aabout a 3 hour period) which can't be good for my stomach. This went on until 3:30 this morning, when I finally collapsed in bed and slept. Since awakening this morning, I have had constant shadows, bordering on a hit, but not quite. Also, bloodshot right eye, dull ache in right ear - feels like pain from wax buildup in ear. Had sensations of dull HA all across my forehead (tension??), but a hot shower and shampoo seems to have eased that one somewhat. The Kudzu is definitely lessening the duration and intensity of the CH, but is seems to be changing the patterns and causing some other little problems for me. I wonder why?? Anyone got ideas? I'm still going to continue the Kudzu - and Nani - you are right, I haven't been taking a dose before bedtime. Will do tonight. Thanks for the info and support. Hanging in there! :'( |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 26th, 2005, 12:48pm on 02/26/05 at 09:14:23, toolong wrote:
Several people mentioned vitacost.com. I put a link to that in the kudzu article. http://med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=Kudzu |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Feb 26th, 2005, 12:52pm Quote:
Several reports sound similar to what can happen with clusterbusters ... one person (in an email) who has tried both said that kudzu did feel similar to shrooms. We do know that sometimes the beast makes a bumpy exit when that alternative treatment is tried. We don't know if a short course of kudzu will banish the beast, or if it has to be taken for the whole cycle (or long term for chronics). |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 26th, 2005, 12:56pm on 02/26/05 at 09:14:23, toolong wrote:
http://www.iherb.com/kudzu1.html price is 12.03 a bottle and an online order discount after that. free shipping. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Melissa on Feb 26th, 2005, 1:52pm on 02/26/05 at 11:09:40, Sandy_C wrote:
Sandy, Just wondering why you keep popping the Excedrin? Maybe you should try taking Aleve instead for the shadows, to try and keep your CH's from rebounding? :)mel |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Feb 26th, 2005, 2:11pm http://www.jjanthony.com/kudzu/houses.html ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Feb 26th, 2005, 3:10pm OMG this stuff is like a creeping crud.... [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 26th, 2005, 3:55pm Hey im checking in again my clusters are all gone but i get nasty shadows on wednesdays and saturdays that last a few hours. How wierd is that. Any good tips for getting rid of the shadows? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Feb 26th, 2005, 5:05pm Checking in.... I had one more Cluster as usual (these days anyway...that's 3 per night) last night.....after my middle of the night check in....I abort with O2.....then I awoke and inhales some more O2 for a little shadow before I had an early appointment to keep.....sigh....wonder when I will get sleep....I took 600 mgs Kudzu again this am and will again this pm......and as suggested add some meletonin with it....I have put a timer by my bed so when I start sucking O2 I will wake up before I waste all the oxyen..... Hopeing for some relief soon...You all are giving me hope....so I press on....what else can I do? Love you all, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 26th, 2005, 5:39pm Karen, I also added B Complex 50 and magnesium at the same time I added the kudzu. Perhaps they will help? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Rock_Lobster on Feb 27th, 2005, 12:50am zu'ing the kud for two days now. chowed on two capsules yesterday and one earlier today. moderate shadow this PM. popped two zu's as soon as the tickle started. fine two hours later... which may be unique... my shadows tend to nibble on my skull for 6-8 hours usually. still aok... laid bait for the beast in the form of multiple tequila-based beverages... no sign. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Feb 27th, 2005, 2:53am (1) Has naturally occuring Cluster Headaches NOT caused by surgerys, brain anurysyms, car wrecks and/or accidents etc. ? Yeah got them starting when i was 14. No surgery or whatnot (2) That ONLY gets Cluster Headaches and NOT Migraines, CPH, Icepicks and other types of headaches ? Yeah only clusters here. I dont think ive ever had a regular headache. (3) That is Episodic and NOT Chronic ? I didnt even know you could be chronic at this til i saw this site. I wish i could give chronics a medal or something. (4) In the middle or PEAK of your cycle ? Yeah i should be at the peak of mine right now. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by eddie on Feb 27th, 2005, 12:48pm http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/HerbsTake/0,3927,552062|Kudzu,00.html may help, interesting cook with it to mmmm!!! http://home.att.net/~ejlinton/jelly.html the link above works now if you want to cook with kudzu LOL |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Feb 27th, 2005, 3:50pm Thanks Eddie....very interesting......It should also help with menopausal symptoms.....cool...thats just one more thing I'm going through....but nothing....absolutely nothing compared to the Clusters.....so I am still getting hit 3X per night....I added some magnesium that I found I had in my suppliment drawer....and some meletonin last night....at least I got some good sleep for the short hours I did get....and interesting dreams.... I guess it has been about 3 days this time around on the kudzu so far....waiting for some nitetime relief.....I take a good natural multivitamin as well.....so I get plenty of vitimins. I think I take more meds than my husband now....which is remarkable....He is a kidney transplant patient and takes a bundle of pills both am and pm..... :o On with the experiment! Love you guys, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by catlind on Feb 27th, 2005, 6:37pm Hmmm helps with menopausal symptoms?? Ok, where do I get a bottle? Even if it doesn't help with the clusters, I'll take it for hot flashes! Guess I'm off to GNC in the morning. Cat |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Feb 28th, 2005, 8:55am This is my 25th day without a hit. I was startled awake this morning and started to feel like a hit might be coming. I got really nervous...and just as quickly as I felt it might come on...it was gone. A 2 minute jab. Still shadowing ever so slightly. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 28th, 2005, 9:27am Here is my report of my first weekend on “the root”. My Nature’s Way Kudzu Root extract arrived via UPS on Friday. Being mid-cycle, I thought it would be worth a go. My HA’s were being triggered this time from running/vigorous exercise. No middle of the night wake up calls in this cycle yet but I was seeing my cycle deepen in severity (had a true kip 10 on Wed of last week) and was walking around with a general shadow for a couple of days. I presently take no preventatives or abortives. I took 2 caplets on Friday afternoon and then 2 more on Friday before bed. Had my first wake up in the middle night at 1:30 a.m. with a Kip 3. It was very brief, lasting only 30 minutes. Then another (about Kip 2) at about 4 a.m. This was definitely a change in cycle behavior for me. On the bright side these were among the lightest and shortest lived clusters I have had to date. Took 2 caplets Saturday morning, two more at lunch and two more at dinner. Was a little tired so went to bed early Saturday. Woke up with HA (Kip 3) at 11:30 p.m. Took dog out in cold air and it was gone within 30 minutes. Slept rest of night. Haven’t had vigorous exercise in three days. Also haven’t had a beer in three days. Kudzu Root is supposed to help with that also…. Apparently the Chinese used to use this for withdrawal symptoms from alcohol. Sunday, took regimen of capsules, morning, lunch and dinner. No clusters Sunday night. I know they are still in there. I can sense them lurking around in there but PF for Sunday. Will keep you posted as I am going to yoga tonight to see how we do through exercise. Have not felt any remarkable transformation as a result of taking it, but would recognize the change in cycle behavior and the shortened length and decreased intensity as possibly attributable. But, as you all know, who knows for sure? My cycles are often different from each other, my triggers are not always consistent, although my severity is rarely as light as the last couple days. Initial judgement --- maybe, there's sumpin' different goin' on. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 28th, 2005, 9:41am regarding the price queries.... i found my supply of Nature's Way (50 capsules/613 mg) from www.good-earth.com for $8.61. This does not include shipping, and since I rushed them for shipment my cost was not reflective of their std. shipping charge. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Feb 28th, 2005, 12:57pm Friday I got hit. Not major maybe a K5-6. Since then I have upped the kudzu to 600 mg daily (as opposed to 300). Shadows today, but they have vanished. Stilll going..... Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Feb 28th, 2005, 5:09pm Started Kudzu evening of 2/24 - now in my 4th full day of doses - 2 613 mg caplets per dose - 6:00 am - lunch - before bed. I can honestly say - THIS IS GREAT!!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Feb 28th, 2005, 5:13pm Sorry - must have hit wrong key or something - anyway - to continue. No major CH at all in the last two days. Teeny Tiny little hits now and then - shadows, etc. But what an improvement. I'm sold! I even had a beer yesterday (first one since this CH-- began), with no bad effects. Going to keep on going with this stuff. How is everybody else doing??? Be PF!! Keep the faith!! Love ya all. ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Feb 28th, 2005, 6:04pm Kudzubusters.com? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 12:19am on 02/28/05 at 18:04:25, Bob P wrote:
LOL Bob...that's going to be Flo's new website. ;;D End of Day 25: Due to a rodent sighting, a 1970s era malfunctioning smoke alarm that can't be unplugged and a very high strung child...last night was sensory hell for me. I awoke with an "almost" hit this morning and today has been my worst day so far. I shadowed slightly higher (k3) for slightly longer (45 mins each) more often ( probably 4 total shadows) today. I'm positive it has to do with the lack of sleep and adrenaline rush from the sensory overload. I have not taken any additional kudzu today, but will tomorrow if necessary. I am also down to 300 mgs of Neurontin a day (since yesterday) which is 1/6 th my prescribed dosage and 1/3 what I was taking when I started the kudzu. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 1st, 2005, 11:09am Day 5 on the "zu". Was able to complete a full power yoga class, and run 5 miles within the last 24 hours without triggering. Didn't even have one last night in the middle of the night. One or the other should have triggered a CH, based on where I usually am in my cycle at this point. Is it the Zu? Hell, I don't know. Something has definitely happened after I started taking it. The cycle was altered in some way -- you all know what I mean -- there is just something different going on, I can't really pin it down. No side effects that I can tell. 8) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 1st, 2005, 11:35am on 03/01/05 at 00:19:25, nani wrote:
No, you won't find me on the kudzubusters website. Maybe crazyforkudzu.com or cultofkudzu.org Hope today goes better than yesterday, Nani. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 1st, 2005, 12:19pm As some of you may have read on the general board, I just started taking the Zu. Planetary Formulas. The label reads, 750 mg, 120 tablets. "Botanical support for alcohol cessation." ::) Recommended dosage: 2 tabs T.I.D, between meals. Total daily dosage would be 2250 mg, then, right? Is this a high enough dose? The stuff cost me $20, but if it cost $50, I still would have bought it. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 12:34pm Well, crap...I just had someone who is not old read the small print on the bottle...750 mgs is one serving, which is 2 tablets. [smiley=ohjez.gif] DOH! I'm only taking 2 tablets a day, so in effect...I started taking 375 mgs a day and now take 750 mgs a day. Off to call the eye doctor now... :-[ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 1st, 2005, 12:59pm the Natures Way are 613 mg per capsule -- but do have a serving size of 2 capsules, going on to describe the serving size as 1,226 mg. I have been taking 2 capsules per dose, 3 times daily -- so a total of 3,678 mg. i did find that i had to get to the barber shop today, when I hadn't noticed my hair being that long a few days ago..... think i'm overzuing it? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 1:16pm on 03/01/05 at 12:59:32, seasonalboomer wrote:
That's hilarious! I just looked in the mirror last night and thought...damn, my hair needs cutting...already! I don't even care if my lip gets hairy...I'll take relief and mustache waxing anytime. ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 1st, 2005, 1:36pm on 03/01/05 at 12:19:21, Frank_W wrote:
Frank (and others) - I have questions about the whole dosage thing. I posted the following on the survey thread: Quote:
Should we speak more in terms of the amount of kudzu in the tabs, rather than the size of the tabs themselves? I think that, because we are all not on the same type of pill, it might lead to a lot less confusion. Just thinking... Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 1st, 2005, 2:16pm Well, unfortunately, the label on the Planetary Formulas bottle doesn't list milligrams for active ingredients. It just says, "A proprietary blend" of: 1.5g (daily value not established) Kudzu Root, Kudzu Flower, Hovenia Fruit, Coptis Root, Poria Cocos Sclerotium, Grifola Sclerotium, Atractylodes Root, Codonopsis Root, Saussurea Root, Shen Qu-Massa Fermentata Extract, Green Citrus Peel, Cardamon Fruit, and Ginger Root. Other ingredients: Sorbitol, stearic acid, colloidal silicon dioxide, modified cellulose gum, and magnesium stearate. "Planetary Formulas Kudzu Recovery features the roots and flowers of kudzu (Pueraria lobata) which have long been used in Chinese herbalism to help lessen the desire for alcohol. Researchers have identified two constituents in kudzu responsible for this activity, daidzein and daidzin, which in animal research have been found to cause a similar effect. These are combined with coptis, a primary cleansing and liver-supporting herb from Chinese herbalism and other key botanicals historically used to reduce cravings. Lifestyle Recommendations: To decrease cravings, maintain adequate caloric intake by eating rregularly scheduled meals, avoid simple sugars, and supplement with GTF chromium and a B-complex vitamin. Avoid excess stress, exercise regularly, and promote a calm mental state of well-being." A calm mental state? A CALM MENTAL STATE?? okay... ;;D I try... ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 1st, 2005, 2:32pm "A calm mental state" What does Kudzu have to do with Vermont? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 2:44pm I can't decipher any furhter info from the bottle eaither, Casey. You have a good point. I can't get into trying to coordinate that info. Kudzu didn't make me any smarter, I'm afraid. :-/ I'm having a better day than yesterday, so I suspect I was right about sensory overload, lack of sleep and adrenaline being a trigger for a bad (only since kudzu - yesterday would've been an "easy" day before I started it) day. I have a clusterbuddy who does not post here who is also trying the kudzu. She wanted to report that she has gotten some relief overall, but had to take a trex shot in desperation. She did not feel any adverse effects from it. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy on Mar 1st, 2005, 2:45pm I was taking the Soloray 150mgs and taking at least 4 pills ( the = of 600mgs) am and pm....but I ran out and just bought Nature's Way at my local store....It is super Tuesday and everything is discounted....yippee!!!! We need all the help we can get....I think the Nature's Way is 613mgs....so I'll start that this pm.....maybe increase I don't know.....Last night I still got hit a couple of times but it seemed to be less intense and easier to go away with the O2.....a better night's sleep....maybe the meletonin....and maybe a combination of that and the Kudzu kicking in.... My husband's mother in law passed away this am ( my step kids gramma)...His first wife passed away from cancer and then her father passed just last Fall.....all this and my daughter's wedding this Saturday....Hopeing the funeral isn't on the same day....She was wonderful in accepting me into the family......so sad....and I want my daughter's wedding to be so happy..... Just had to spill....Love y'all Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 2:47pm Sorry, Karen...that's a lot going on. I'm glad you're at least getting some noticeable effect now. I'm praying for your lasting relief. Huggsss, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Margi on Mar 1st, 2005, 3:10pm sorry for your loss, Karen. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by lionsound on Mar 1st, 2005, 3:14pm Frank, Nani... Hate to be a pill LOL..but I think that you do have 750mg per tablet...I could be totally wrong...but look at the amount per serving. That equals 1.5 Grams which is as you know 2x750mg. Does it specifially say somewhere else that 750mg is one serving? (If it does I'm a dope and sorry.) Doesn't matter either way I suppose as long as it might work for you!:) This was the label I was looking at: http://www.iherb.com/kudzu1.html Supplement Facts Serving Size: 2 Tablets Serving per container: 60 Amount Per Serving Proprietary Blend: 1.5 g + Kudzu root, Kudzu flower, Hovenia fruit, Copits root, Poria Cocos sclerotium, Grifola sclerotium, Atractylodes root, Codonopsis root, Saussurearoot, Shen Qu-Massa Fermentata extract, Green Citrus peel, Cardamom fruit and Ginger root. ----------------------------------------------------------------- + Daily Values Not Established. Other Ingredients: sorbitol, stearic acid, colloidal silicon dioxide, modified cellulose gum and magnesium stearate. " Expiration Date: Approx. 3 years from date of purchase. Brand: Planetary Formulas by Michael Tierra 750 mg, 120 Tabs Be well, Lionsound |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 3:19pm Well Rory...now I'm even more confused. LOL When I see that (it's the right bottle) on my monitor in extra large font, it looks like you're correct. Early on in the thread, flo says the PDR says that 9-15 grams is a normal dose. Now that's for root, not root extract. But, If the bottle says I can take 6 tabs a day safely, that's what I'll follow. Unfortunately, all this thinking is making my eyes water. :-/ Can anyone tell me how much I'm taking? [smiley=confused2.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 1st, 2005, 3:32pm You're correct, Rori. Nowhere does it say that 750mg is one serving. I'm assuming from the label, that one tablet is 750 mg, and that a serving of two tablets would then be, 1500 mg, and the daily total would then be 4500 mg. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 1st, 2005, 3:43pm OK...so I'm taking 1500 mgs a day. That's what I'm sticking to... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 2nd, 2005, 9:35am Day 6 on the "zu" -- 3 complete days of no HA's whatsoever. Starting to feel as though I'm looking into the rear view mirror as I pull away from this cycle. How's that for optimism? Ran again this morning (my usual trigger) and nothing happened. This could be pretty cool if it is really the kudzu making the difference. The process from Day 1 has been, if I can use some analogies. If the headaches are "the beast", kudzu has been like taking a 22 calibre gun to the beast. You shoot most beasts with a 22 and you won't kill it right away, but if you keep shooting, eventually you'll take him down. That's what the kudzu was like from Day 1 - a little better each day -- and then, feeling pretty darn good about it today. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 2nd, 2005, 9:38am Got hit this morning and I'm fiighting through shadows now. Will take some decongestant for the stuffy nose. Ha 300 mg of kudzu this morning, but it isn't doing anything for this one. Will just wait it out.... Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:46am Well, crap... This has been a weird cycle anyway... One shadow every night, between 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. Yesterday, I started the kudzu. Last night, I got nailed at 1:00 a.m. with a full-blown hit. Interestingly, the hit itself only went up to a Kip 6, and only lasted for thirty minutes. Maybe after the kudzu has time to sufficiently load into my system, I won't get hit at all... I guess time will tell. -White Mouse In The Maze.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:54am That's great for you Frank. Exactly what I was saying, the hits I got right after the kudzu were just wierd CH's. They hit, they knocked, and then right when you thought "oh f&*$%, here we go", they lifted in something less than 30 minutes or so. I hope you experience the progressive improvement that I did in the coming days. Good luck. I don't want to appear to be a freak about some new alternative remedy, but this could really be cool if these experiences are duplicated. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 2nd, 2005, 11:08am Not to worry boomer...I'm enough of a freak about it to cover everybody...LOL I forgot my meds last night...so I'm going to take this opportunity to start tapering off the lithium, too. Frank and Ozzy, I hope it keeps getting better! Not everyone who is getting relief is posting to this thread. I know of 2 others who have had some success. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 2nd, 2005, 11:22am Well, I'm still in denial. I am NOT in cycle, dammit!! *sigh* It was just a very hard shadow... (please, please, dear God...) So, I'll hang in with the 'zu, and buckle in for the ride. :-/ :-* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:28pm Heya.... how'd that work out? I miss my Miller High Life.... :-/ on 02/27/05 at 00:50:18, Rock_Lobster wrote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 3rd, 2005, 8:55am Okay..... I am tentatively hopeful.... Yesterday was Day 2 on the 'zu. I held off on the last dose until 9 p.m. and then washed it down with GNC "Mega Men" multi-vitamin, which is an uber-vitamin.. Great stuff. (in spite of the name!) No hit, no shadows. Nothing. Day 3.... Time will tell. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 3rd, 2005, 9:21am Update - Finished day 6 on the "zu". Decided I would lay down a final test -- three beers on Wed. night. Woke up about 2 a.m. ---- a little thirsty, THAT's IT. So, I'll complete the kudzu survey tomorrow. Could it have been a short cycle that just ended naturally? Maybe, who knows? I'm going to keep taking through the weekend, if still no shadows or anything, I'll stop zu-ing and see if the cycle is fully gone. Nani, if you're the one who brought this info to the boards you deserve a hearty thanks and many hugs. I went from deep despair last Wed. to as optimistic as a cluster sufferer can be in less than a week. Good luck to all who try it out. Frank, I hope your success continues. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 3rd, 2005, 9:24am Not me, boomer...it was Floridian. I have recently informed him we are going to start a movement to make him the patron saint of CH... ;;D I'm just so happy it's working for so many of us! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 3rd, 2005, 9:31am Then, many thanks to Floridian. Should my results continue I will be able to continuing training as hoped for the Charlottesville Marathon in April. A lot of people run for various charities -- is there any OUCH-ware out there so I can run wearing something in dedication and building awareness to the help you all are providing to those of us who have these things.? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 3rd, 2005, 9:42am 0844, Day 3: Just muddled my way through a 30-minute shadow/hit.... Real low level, but enough to make me do the classic, "digging the heel of the palm into the eye" pose. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:55am Since this stuff has estrogenic properties (you guys are going to get man-boobs), here's a question: are there any female clusterheads here who are on estrogen therapy? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 3rd, 2005, 12:05pm on 03/03/05 at 11:55:55, Bob P wrote:
LOL ;;D Although many plants contain 'phytoestrogens' there is no evidence that they cause feminization of males or man-boobs. Soy is another rich source of phytoestrogens - yet China and Japan don't have the problem you describe. Some phytoestrogens protect against breast cancer while estrogen can stimulate the growth of normal and cancerous cells in the breast. Some phytoestrogens can increase estrogen activity if it is low, but lower it if it is high. The typical phytoestrogen might have 5% of the activity of real estrogen. Because it spends time at the estrogen receptors, it actually decreases the activity of real estrogen, while only weakly stimulating the receptor. FYI - Hops are loaded with phytoestrogens - maybe that's why men love beer and wimmens tend to favor wine. Also, there was someone here a year or two ago that claimed that a (non-alcoholic) hops extract helped with their clusters - maybe they were right. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Mar 3rd, 2005, 12:08pm Floridian... do you have anything on kudzu and kids? whether they can take it or not? Specifically a 3 year old Thanks Helen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 3rd, 2005, 12:52pm I haven't come across much at all on kids and kudzu. Some sources reccomend that pregnant/nursing women avoid kudzu, while the PDR (link to it in kudzu article at med-owl.com) says there are no known precautions for pregnant women, and nothing about kids. In general, kids are developing and may be more susceptible to outside influences. The risks of kudzu are not known, but potential risks need to be weighed against the potential benefits. Also, the dose is probably linked to weight, which would be a factor with little ones. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Roxy on Mar 3rd, 2005, 1:32pm I'm on day five of the Kudzu. So far it's not very good news. Five to seven hits every night since I've been taking it......so it's not changing anything for me. I'm going to keep going for a few weeks.....see what happens. Roxy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:02pm Tracey, how much of it are you taking? I started low with only one 150 mg a day. I'm up to 6 a day, and that seems to be the trick for *me*. If you are already taking a lot and don't feel like taking more, try taking less (kinda like verapamil or melatonin). Your hits are mostly at night. How about taking a "megadose" in the evening and not much during the day. Human guinea pigs we all are... Hoping it works for ya. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:31pm I've been getting one shadow, every evening, since last Thursday. This morning, I had a half-hour shadow, and right now, (1430) I'm shadowing again... :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:49pm But are your boobs tender Frank? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:55pm on 03/03/05 at 15:49:13, Bob P wrote:
Not since taking a couple of Midol. [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by dougchunyo on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:58pm MAN-BOOBS [smiley=JAW_DROP.gif] I just took my first dose, hoping it works. Got a big kick out of the discussion about estrogen v. phytoestrogen. I knew it wouldn't cause any problems. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 3rd, 2005, 4:39pm on 03/03/05 at 15:58:41, dougchunyo wrote:
Hoping it works for your CH, or to give you man-boobs? Casey here we go again... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 3rd, 2005, 4:44pm Quote:
I'm not sure about the man-boobs but it may promote uterus growth! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 3rd, 2005, 4:56pm Yeah, but if you read carefully, Tiny mice are getting a dose far above what humans take - 150 to 600 mg / kg in mice vs less than 150 mg for a person weighing 40 - 100 kilos. And in the mice, different doses had different effects. Plus: 1) Mild Estrogen-like effect in estrogen deficient mice 2) No estrogen effect in normal mice 3) Anti-estrogen effect in mice whose estrogen is already high. Check my memory on this, but I think obesity is the main cause of man-boobs ... estrogen (the real, full strength stuff) is produced by adipocytes (fat cells) in men. The effect on a developing fetus might be significant (and caution is always advised there). Children are probably more susceptible than adults. There could be side effects. But I doubt it will turn George into Boy George or Georgina. I sweeten my kudzu with saccharin!! Are we not men?? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Mar 3rd, 2005, 5:40pm Let's see now I'm on my 7th day of Kudzu,Solray Kudzu extract 150mg.I read in the previous threads all kinds of different dosages.Not quite sure if I'm taking the right ammount.Boobs are not sore,but CH are letting up. Living the last couple of days with just shadows.I am chronic so I take the Kudzu every day 150mg one in the morning and one at bed time.If I increase dosage will it help?And should it be taken all at once.Just trying to find my way thru to a PF day. [smiley=huh.gif]David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 3rd, 2005, 6:04pm on 03/03/05 at 17:40:53, toolong wrote:
David, I am on the Solaray. I take 1 pill 3 x a day. Morning, noon, evening. I am not sure if 3 is better than 2, but I figured it couldn't hurt. And, it doesn't. I hope it works out for you. Today is day 14 for me, and it is going really well. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:50pm Thanks for getting back on topic, folks... ;;D David, I'm taking 1500 mgs a day. Some people are taking their biggest dose about an hour before their regular hits/shadows. That seems to be working for some. See if you see a pattern to the hits and dose accordingly (?) Disclaimer: I am not a doctor or even a kudzu expert...just a sufferer who is thankful that it's working for me. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:22pm on 03/03/05 at 22:50:38, nani wrote:
This is the discrepancy that I have been confused/worried about. nani, and others, are on 1500 mgs/day. However, she is on a blend of Kudzu with other *stuff* included. Not that this is better or worse, its just if I were to take 1500 mgs of the Solaray, I would be taking 10 pills a day, and getting a total of 1500 mgs of Kudzu Root extract, with 30 mgs of that being daidzin; along with 1650 mgs of Kudzu extract. I am not sure, but I believe that that would be a significantly bigger dose than if I were taking 1500 mgs of a blend. Do we have a db/survey of the different types of kudzu people are taking and how much? Is this dosage issue even important? I think so, but I honestly do not know. Casey edited to say that I am afraid that 10 of my pills a day would give me man-boobs :-X |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm on 03/03/05 at 23:22:46, clarence wrote:
Me too, man. We're still in the fooling around stage. Nothing wrong with that, but if it's as promising as it looks.........we outta have 25 unrepentant sinners on the exact same brand/dose/day.......not exactly a blind study, but at least minimal controls. A 10 or 15 question input form might be in order. Not that anything we'd do like this would have any value in the medical journals, but it'd get the attention of some serious research people. Kinda. Things to look forward to. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:46pm Agreed...I don't think my bottle mentions the daidzin at all. (I could be wrong...still don't have the reading glasses.) And mine does have additional herbs. So what would we do next? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:58pm on 03/03/05 at 23:46:53, nani wrote:
Floridian started all this hoopla. We outta let him pick the pill de jour, and blame him when all our kids are born with birth defects, and we get jaundice. Darn near everything he says makes sense to me. And he's always backing it up with published medical doctrines and stuff. C'mon, big fella......step up to the plate. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 4th, 2005, 12:00am I'm in. I need to pick up a new bottle soon anyway. Flo...what should I get? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by dougchunyo on Mar 4th, 2005, 7:38am I appreciated the "man-boob" stuff - best laugh I've had in a while. Now back to business - If most of you are like me, and anything tried in the past eventually loses effectiveness, would it not be advisable to stick with whatever form of the 'zu one is currently taking? If history repeats, perhaps when/if the formula stops working a different formulation may work. Consistency is always important - mixing things up (i.e. this formula vs. that formula) will certainly taint any results. As long as we are all cognizant of what we are taking the necessary dosages will become apparent. Plus there's usually at least one person who works at the health food store who is generally pretty knowledgeable about dangers and max dosages. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:05am The only part of Mr. Happy's suggestion that might be difficult is that it is easier for some people to get certain brands. What I mean is, not every health food store sells the same freakin stuff...which is frustrating. Granted, I can probably get any kind of kudzu out there via the internet. But, in general, people will do what is easiest. That said, I am willing to "go out of the way..." or whatever. What I was thinking is that if we knew which ingredients were essential. I can't remember what flo's original post said, or if it said, whether it was the Pueraria - root, or root extract...or if it is the daidzin, that is active on my head. Maybe it doesn't matter. Through all of this rambling I think I am trying to say that when it comes to doses, maybe we shouldn't advise people in terms of pill size, but on something that is more consistent or measurable - that is, the amount of Kudzu Root, or Kudzu Root Extract, or Daidzin, that is actually in the pill. One person could be taking 1500 mgs a day, but getting the same amount of kudzu or daidzin as I am in only taking 450 mgs. I don't know. That's enough out of me...I just study theology. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Rock_Lobster on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:29am Heh heh... I am gonna grow bitch tits... http://www.molodezhnaja.ch/film/fight3.jpg |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:32am Looking at Koodzoo on the web, Inoticed that a lot of the stuff for sale also contains magnesium. Marc Kurth, at CalOUCH, was having pretty good results from mega-magnesium. Just an observation. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:36am Some thoughts: 1) people have reported improvement with atleast 4 brands - while there may be variation, there are also results. 2) More people need to post to the first week survey, then maybe we'll get a clearer picture on brands and doses. 3) Standardizing to daidzin tells us something, but may not be all that useful. We don't know the ingredient(s) that are doing the job. Daidzin is one marker of kudzu isoflavone content, but with different extraction processes and natural variation in the root, 1% daidzin tells us nothing about the amount of puerarin and other compounds. There was a big standardization debate around other herbs - for St. Johns wort, most extracts were standardized to a chemical called hypericin. They still don't understand St Johns wort, but they do know that atleast one other compound (hyperforin) seems to be more important than hypericin. Unfortunately, most brands out there are either standardized to daidzin, not standardized, or standardized but kept secret. Kudzu is not a high volume seller, so there is no guaranteed 'fingerprinting' as is seen for some herbs. I thought of contacting the manufacturers, but doubt they will give much information. An independent analysis of the major brands makes sense, but takes time and money. Will check with a few friends that run chemistry labs to see if they provide more info or do the analyses. 4) If you found something that works, you might want to stick with it. Get a feel for what dose is optimal for you. If you don't get a good response and are at the maximum reccommended dose for a week, consider switching. If you are having side-effects, consider stopping or switching, especially if you take a blend that has more than kudzu or kudzu extract. 5) More people need to post to the first week survey, then maybe we'll get a clearer picture on brands and doses. I know of several people that have gone more than a week, have good results, and haven't posted. Don't make me drive out to your house and knock on your door! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:40am on 03/04/05 at 08:32:36, Bob P wrote:
Magnesium is good stuff, and there is evidence it can weaken the beast. Many supplements contain magnesium stearate as a binding agent, but I think it is in a small amount compared to anything sold as a magnesium supplement. In phase 2, my Floridian Brand Anti-Cluster Formula will contain magnesium. http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=Magnesium |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:57am The other consideration besides number of grams is potency. How old and dried up is the stuff being sold? I know with coffee, peppers, and mushrooms, a lot of the 'action' has to do with potency and freshness. Once any of them get 'stale' they're pretty useless. I've bought health store herbs before and they're usually really weak. So, just to be difficult, I plan on digging up fresh root and seeing what can be made of it. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:05am Hi Floridian, I'm getting a bit bogged down here. What supplements would you recommend? I'm reading about magnesium and coq10 and allsorts and I don't quite know which will work together or counteract or what? help! Thanks Helen PS I've ordered both melatonin and kudzu from vitacost which is due for delivery either today or monday *fingers crossed for today* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PCMCCK on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:10am I have read virtually all of the posts here about kudzu and the apparently beneficial effects that it has on cluster headaches, but unless I have overlooked something (quite possible, since so much has been written), have any scientific studies been done by an accredited American institute, medical or university, with the usual rigorous controls that can substantiate that this plant actually works in the prevention of cluster headache pain or can abort an attack? I have checked with European neurologists who are quite reputable in the field and do much research and they do not know of any. My second question is that if such studies have been done and have shown that the use of kudzu is very beneficial for CH sufferers, are there plans to market the medication for physicians to prescribe for the treatment of CH patients? Thank you. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:13am Floridian posted the initial info and I was desperate. It was kudzu or 'shrooms at that point for me. I'm sure glad I tried kudzu!!! I'm sure flo will follow with "real" info on this. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:29am on 03/04/05 at 09:10:20, PCMCCK wrote:
The discussion of kudzu for clusters is only about 1 month old - approximately 10 people have tried it that I know of, and all but 1 of those reported good to excellent results - most people are reporting definite changes within 2 days. There is no controlled research at this time on CH. There are 3 studies on kudzu and migraine that I know of. One of these was in China, and may or may not be rigorous. The other two studies were on kudzu and menstrual migraine, and one was in the US and one in Italy. The researchers assumption was that it was an estrogen that would only help female migraneurs, but that is a big assumption that does not seem to be the case. You may want to check out the German Commission E Monographs on Kudzu - I have a copy on order and will add that to the discussion later, but it may be easy for you to get locally. Quote:
If it is an herb, it is difficult to get a patent monopoly, the drug companies aren't interested, and the system doesn't do the necessary paperwork and research and market it the way they do viagra and rogaine. Also, in the US, there is minimal regulation unless there is a clear risk. But there is always the possibility that some doctors would be interested and would conduct a trial, and doctors can mention it to their patients. I was actually thinking that we are getting close to the point of emailing a bunch of doctors with a summary of our experience. A friend's uncle works for Schwabe Gmbh, I will try to make contact and sound him out on that. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:43am Quote:
I don't think anything you mentioned is known to directly counteract the other. Wish it were easy, but it is complicated. Think about the pharmaceutical side for comparison - some people take lithium, some take a prednisone taper with verapamil, others add triptans to the mix. There is topomax, ergotamine, and a few people on ritalin, olanzapine, anti-coagulants, and other drugs. Plus oxygen. If a single med gives good control, that may be all that is needed. Many people try different combinations, always in search of better defense against the beast. CoQ10 has been investigated for migraine, and some evidence is there. Not sure if Coq10 helps with clusters - it may, but not a first option if one is short on money, or trying to get quickly PF. (for migraine, it took 3 months to significantly cut the frequency of headaches). Magnesium is generally a good thing, and intravenous magnesium helps with clusters in 40% of people - especially those with low magnesium, while magnesium tablets may help (some long timers believe in it). It is also needed for calcium metabolism (along with vit D, vitamin K, biotin, et). Magnesium absorption may be low in people with certain digestive disorders - epsom salt baths are a good alternative. Melatonin is proven to help many with clusters in a number of studies, and that is consistent with the experiences on this board. But what combination of these is best for an individual? No simple answer. It varies, just like it does with prescription meds. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:45am Thought I read that koodzoo dialtes coronary blood vessles and increases blood flow/velocity in cereberal blood vessels. Thoughts? 5-HT activity. Beta blocker? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:54am on 03/04/05 at 09:45:52, Bob P wrote:
Yeah, I've read that it increases blood flow. Some might shy away from any vasodilator on the theory that vasoconstrictor = good for CH and migraine, vasodilator = bad. But niacin (which causes vasodilation and flushing) can prevent migraine in some people, even though its action on blood vessels is opposite that of triptans. Some chems may act differently on small blood vessels vs large, etc. Some evidence that it is a beta-blocker (which have limited use in CH). The 5-HT (serotonin) activity is what started this thread - still don't understand it, but I think that is part of how it helps. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PCMCCK on Mar 4th, 2005, 10:00am Thank you very much for your kind answer, floridian. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 10:13am Quote:
I'll have to locate the article again but I thought it said that it: dialates coronary blood vessles, increases blood velocity in cereberal vessles. It seems to me that dialting vessles decreases velocity. Could it be the beta blocking agent dialating coronary vessels and the 5-HT portion constricing cereberal? Gone searching for the article again. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 4th, 2005, 10:19am Okay, now I'm into Day 7 on the Zu. Yesterday's experience would indicate that while I've had pretty darn good results (no CH for 4.5 days), the kudzu doesn't make me "six foot tall and bulletproof". I pushed the envelope last night by playing hockey. I got very, very hot playing and it triggered, what would eventually be, a Kip 8. :'( Why would it trigger last night versus my previous vigorous exercise the last few days? Time of day? (started playing at 9:30pm -- a little tired already) Temperature? (it's been pretty cold when I've been running so overall body temp doesn't spike so badly as last night) Certainly a let down but in my present appraisal it doesn't totally negate the benefits I think I've gotten this week. It has simply tempered them with the reality that it may have the ability to mute the beast but the beast is still in there, which I've indicated I felt earlier in the week. And, the reality is that I played some games with the beast this week by pushing it to the limits (I'd like to think, "in the name of science"). So, if the zu can give some confidence to resume, say 75% of normal activity during a cycle without the anxiety that it could result in a "bad experience", that would be plenty for me. So, I've got to get a second package of Kudzu to keep on, keepin' on the zu. And, back off a little and let the cycle go its route in a muted fashion. (Floridian, i'll be posting my 7 day survey today) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 4th, 2005, 10:52am I doubled up on one of the doses, yesterday. Instead of taking two tablets three times a day, I took two tablets four times. Yesterday, I had a shadow in the morning that was pretty painful, and then an afternoon shadow, and I was worried what that seemed to portend for last night. I sat up and watched a movie last night, until midnight, and then got hit with a shadow. Once again, it was a Kip-5 and lasted for 30 minutes. So far, that's all. I'm thinking that if I weren't taking the kudzu, these shadows might have been full-blown hits. I've never had shadows before, so this is all new to me... Day 4, but no shadows yet... *crossing my fingers* My theory about why kudzu works, even if it is a vasodilator, is that it lowers the blood pressure, but opens the vessels so that there is more oxygen being delivered. The same effect that high-flow oxygen has on cluster headaches, perhaps? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Mar 4th, 2005, 11:58am kudzu vs. psychedelic question.... I've read that triptans in the system will negate the effectivness of the clusterbusters technique.....I'm not not 100% up to speed on the science behind that....however, would there be the same correlation with Kudzu? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 12:45pm Oh oh! Better stock up on viagra! Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 4th, 2005, 12:51pm "OBJECTIVES: To investigate the functional changes in rabbit penile corpus cavernosum (CC) ....... CONCLUSIONS: These results indicate that estradiol treatment and chronic exposure of phytoestrogen may cause receptor-mediated pathophysiologic changes in erectile function, leading to erectile dysfunction. " I don't know that I've seen any similar side effects, but I really have never found rabbits to be much of a turn-on either. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Mar 4th, 2005, 1:10pm on 03/04/05 at 12:51:53, seasonalboomer wrote:
With three kids 8 y/o and under, two full time + jobs....and a busybusybusy calendar.....my wifey might welcome a little erectile disfunction every now and then....... ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 4th, 2005, 1:33pm on 03/04/05 at 12:51:53, seasonalboomer wrote:
I don't know... When Bugs Bunny would dress up like a woman, Bugs was SHIT-HOT!! :o ;;D 8) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 4th, 2005, 1:51pm **tapping foot** Ahem.... man boobs, rabbit erectile dysfunction and cross dressing bunnies who are turn ons...... ? nani... who usually likes joking around as much as the next guy... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 2:04pm I'm just cruising the 29 pages of PubMed articles on koodzoo and sharing these jewels with all y'all. Floridian has probably read all the pertinent stuff but for now I'm just saving the stuff regarding 5-HT and blood vessles, etc. to my hard drive for future reading. These are all posted in a joking manner. I'm hopeful that another possible pain stopper may have found. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 4th, 2005, 2:06pm I know Bob and they are funny, too... I just felt a need to insert an AHEM in here somewhere. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 2:13pm Well, the word 'estrogen' or 'phytoestrogen' should trigger more thinking (maybe not that kind of thinking). Here is a review of dietary phytoestrogens: Quote:
In a study on undescended testicles in newborns, the mother's dietary phytoestrogen intake was not a risk factor, though smoking and pesticide exposure are, even in the father. Maybe at very high levels, phytoestrogens could affect fertility or the offspring (good to avoid if pregnant or trying to concieve). Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by JJA on Mar 4th, 2005, 2:18pm on 03/04/05 at 11:58:51, Boyce wrote:
Probably. No real evidence here, but it appears that kudzu is inhibitory at the main site of psilocin's action. There seems to be a few people playing with both. So we'll see. Jesse |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 2:45pm Which 5-HT sites are effected by shrooms and is it an agonistic or antagonistic effect? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 3:17pm I believe it is the 5-ht2, particularly the 2a and 2c. My thinking is that the busters stimulate it at first, then tolerance sets in and they are less sensitive. But after reading the literature and talking to some of the clusterbusters, I am not sure. Clusterbusters may not stimulate the receptors the way ordinary serotonin does. - Instead of a clean note, it has tremor, or a foot pedal effect. Quote:
So the big question appears to be how does kudzu block 5-ht2, and does it up regulate those receptors with daily use? If we find that episodics can stop kudzu after the cycle is over with no rebound, then that would be good news. If some or all of the kudzu activity is from improved blood flow and not related to serotonin, then rebound is unlikely, I believe. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 4th, 2005, 3:22pm on 03/04/05 at 15:17:14, floridian wrote:
Okay: This would lead me to believe that smoking cessation and limiting caffeine intake would improve the effectiveness of both O2 therapy and kudzu. Is this correct? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 3:37pm on 03/04/05 at 15:22:12, Frank_W wrote:
Long term, smoking is definitely bad for the blood vessels, heart, and oxygen circulation. Not sure about caffeine - there are similarities, but caffeine is not as strong, not as harmful to the body for most people. I can't promise that quitting either of these will help with clusters or improve kudzu's effectiveness, though I think it is generally a good idea and it might help. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 4th, 2005, 3:51pm Well, I've been working on quitting smoking for some time, now. I will succeed, but one thing that is amazing to me, (and several people have remarked on it) is that so many CH sufferers are smokers. I'm wondering what the correlation is, if any... Is smoking a contributing factor? Is it something in our brain's wiring that predisposes us to be smokers? I know that smoking does have an effect on dopamine and seratonin levels... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:03pm Quote:
That's my guess. I'm betting that whatever it is that causes our clusters also gives us addictive personalities. PSILOCYBIN = 5HT2 agonist KUDZU = 5HT2 antagonist Take 'em both at the smae time and no cigar for you. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Margi on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:09pm on 03/04/05 at 16:03:22, Bob P wrote:
so, Bob, does that mean that they would cancel each other our, or does it mean that it's dangerous to take both? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:36pm on 03/04/05 at 16:09:42, Margi wrote:
Most likely that kudzu would interfere with the clusterbusting. I think they use chlorpromazine to bring people down from bad trips, and it has been described as an unpleasant experience, although it does put a stop to the visions. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by thudpucker on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:42pm Isoflavones/phytoestrogen: seems like if this was a real problem, soy beans wouldn't have the popularity they do. According to what I read, long-term, regular ingestion of soy isoflavones in the orient hasn't disclosed any detrimental effects. But my real question is whether anyone's tried swapping melatonin for kudzu, which is what I have in mind. Except for a really lousy two-week run while I had a virus/bronchitis, melatonin's kept me pain-free since the start of my cycle in October (due to end April or so). While I was having headaches again, I upped the melatonin from 6mg to 9mg. I'm now back down to 6mg and still pain-free, but I'm wondering whether I might be experiencing some side-effects from melatonin (too much tiredness, down moods bordering on depression). And that's why I'd like to swap melatonin for kudzu. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:53pm 10 Days taking Kudzu (Solaray Kudzu extract 150 mg.),and of all the crap the witch doctors have prescribed for me since I became chronic,it seems to be working like a dream.I take one in the morning and one at bedtime.Sometimes I may take my regular hit of 02 if there are some shadows lurking.Not really sure if it's the zu or maybe just the power of suggestion,but this stuff seems to work!!!!!As for the man boobs,none yet but if I've got to grow some hooters for a PF life so be it.And just a comment on the limp noodle thing,so far no problems.I'm a 55 year old male that still loves sex,but if I can be PF and need a Viagra to get it up then I'll take the Viagra.I've been taking Nadolol as the only prevenative with 02 for my CH.Have not backed off the Nadolol enjoying some pain free days without taking any risks.I may taper off if the PF days continue.It makes me always tired.Good luck to all!I hope we all share great sucess with the zu.Thanks for CH.com and all of you who contribute. [smiley=sayyes.gif]David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:59pm Outstanding, David!! Congratulations!! (If you end up growing a nice set of boobs, uh... can I play with 'em?) :-X [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=girlflash.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 4th, 2005, 5:03pm Quote:
Guess it would be more like a race. Whichever one gets there first wins. Agonist attaches to the 5-HT2 receptor sites and acts LIKE a 5-HT2 signal. Antagonist attaches to the 5-HT2 sites and BLOCKS the signals from reaching the receptor sites. The first one to a site gets to attach, the other gets to float around in Fantastic Voyage style looking for someplace to call home. The receptor sites are always releasing their little messengers and looking for new ones. So maybe they would cancel, half the sites grabbing agonists and half antagonists. Don't know that it would dangerous but probably not very productive. I'd say, like Floridian, pick one and give it a shot. I'm gonna go play with my boobs now. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PCMCCK on Mar 4th, 2005, 8:22pm I did not smoke for 2 weeks and received oxygen daily, 24 hours a day during that time while hospitalized and could only take 1/4 of my CH medication and I was in agonizing pain during the whole time, so for me, at least, smoking cessation and oxygen had no beneficial effect on my CCH. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Racer1_NC on Mar 5th, 2005, 8:34am Well.....my great Kudzu experiment is pretty much over. I started on the 25th, stopped the verap 2 days ago, hit twice last night...just like 2 weeks ago when I tapered the verap taking nothing else. Back to the verap, and off the Kudzu. My conclusions.......worth a shot if you are getting hit, but do not stop what you are doing....if what you are doing is working. Your mileage may vary. Damn it. Bill |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 5th, 2005, 1:03pm Sorry it didn't work out for you, Bill. I hope you get some relief.... The day before yesterday, I took FOUR doses instead of three, because I'd had three shadows (or mild hits..) and was worried that I would get hit at night. No shadows, no hits. Yesterday, I took two doses, and then forgot the damn kudzu pills at work. Last night, I got hit at 1:00 a.m. with a half-hour hit, that was hard enough to make me pace and grind the heel of my palm into my eye, in addition to patting/pounding my brow on the affected side with my palm. (Other than that, I've given up on head-banging). After a thirty minute dance, I went back to bed and slept for the rest of the night. (I'm going back to pick up my kudzu today...) The only other thing I'm taking is a multi-vitamin. Strange cycle, this time around.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 5th, 2005, 2:31pm Sorry, Bill. :( Good point about what works. I am tapering off the lithium and Neurontin I am using as prevents. I have to stay on verap for blood pressure. The prevent combo wasn't really working for me. I had some room to increase my dosages, but really didn't want to do that. I stayed on them as I started the kudzu and only started to taper down when I saw the kudzu was continuing to work for me. I am hoping I can get off of them completely someday, but I'm not in a hurry...as long as things are working. I'm down to 1/6 th my prescribed Neurontin dosage and 1/2 the lithium. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Racer1_NC on Mar 5th, 2005, 3:00pm I am unhappy that it didn't work.....I was hoping to find a alternate for the verap so I would not have to stay on it ALL the time. It could be much worse, been there, done that. Once again......if you are thinking about trying it, don't let my failure stop you. Kuduz could help you. Heck, Melatonin didn't help me either. Looking for the next magic pill............ Bill |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 5th, 2005, 3:48pm Yeah... Melatonin didn't do crap for me, either. It just made me feel like I'd been hit by a bus, the next morning... Yuck... Hang in there, Bill. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 5th, 2005, 7:47pm Update- Went completely off the Verap 2 days ago. I have been tapering since I started the Kudzu. Today, some serious shadows all day, with some definate spikes. Today has been my worst day since I started the Kudzu. That said, it is still better than most days before Kud. I don't know if it has to do with the Verap, or if I am just stressed, or what the deal is. On the bright side, Zoolander is on TV, and I think it is the funniest movie ever made. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 5th, 2005, 9:11pm I had a "bad" day, too, Casey. Persistent shadows most of the morning, albeit only k3s. Also my worst day since kudzu. When I think about pre-kudzu days, today would've been a cakewalk. I'm finding that I'm becoming more annoyed at any pain. I wouldn't say my tolerance is lower, just that I'm no longer complacent about it. Was the verap by itself working for you before? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Mar 5th, 2005, 9:49pm hey you guys should try a red bull for the shadows. It works out really well for me, kills shadows within 5 minutes, its $3 a can though. Maybe you could get your doctors to write prescriptions for red bull :P |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 5th, 2005, 10:00pm http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=Red+Bull |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 5th, 2005, 10:56pm on 03/05/05 at 21:11:53, nani wrote:
I have been feeling the exact same way nani. Its almost as if I have gotten used to having little to no pain, and any pain I do get just really sucks. Its still hammering me now. The Verap had a mildly beneficial effect. That said, I have been on so many drugs over the past 6 months that I really don't know what had which effect. I was still getting hit with the Verap, and I was still getting hit hard. Did it disrupt things, maybe, probably. Anyway, off to drink a Red Bull. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 5th, 2005, 11:02pm I know what you mean, Casey. I think I'd be content to stay on the prevents I'm on now (without having to increase, at least) and continue the kudzu if that was my only shot at relief. I prefer a good strong cup of coffee for my shadows. On occasion, an Excedrin Migraine even helps. My problem with the caffeine intake is my pretty chronic insomnia. I don't have any regularity to my sleep patterns. So even though I'm one of the rare CHers who doesn't usually get hit at night, my hypothalmathingy is still messed up as far as sleep goes. :( |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 6th, 2005, 2:22am "The only people who ever advance science forward are the people who come from the edge, from the outside, usually amateurs, usually not institutional. The way scientific advance happens is though completely irrational bursts of brilliance. Then they create a scenario of careful research and cross-checked data and slow accumulation." Terence McKenna Calling all irrational amateurs!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Mar 6th, 2005, 7:03am Kudzu seemed to be working well for me,maybe I should even say "GREAT".But very early this morning woke with a kip 5.Really suprised me,been doing really fine up untill now.Hope it doesn't go much further have a really busy day planned.12 days doing the zu and only a few shadows,hope the magic of this doesn't fade.Going to wait and see how things go,still tired from lack of sleep.Hit the 02 and didn't help much...maybe some coffee.Anyway might increase the zu if this thing doesn't subside.It's Sunday hope it's a PF day for everyone! ;)David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Mar 6th, 2005, 2:13pm hey i dont know wtf this has to do with kudzu but if anyone has some nettles around them and also wants to experiment. Probably cheaper than imitrex : It used to be thought that the main constituent of the sting was formic acid - the same chemical used by ants, giving that never forgotten burning sensation that demands to be scratched. Although formic acid is present in the sting, recent research has shown that the main chemicals are histamine, acetylcholine and 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin). A fourth ingredient has yet to be identified. http://www.nettles.org.uk/nettles/lore.asp |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 6th, 2005, 4:05pm I walked through a patch of stinging nettles about 25 years ago - very unpleasant. Large areas of skin felt like they were on fire. After what seemed like 10-15 minutes, the skin was suddenly back to normal. Some herbalists use freeze-dried nettles in capsules for treating allergies - it is a do-it-yourself histamine desensitization. I don't think I would try it, it could trigger an allergic crisis that requires an adrenaline shot to open the breathing passages. That type of allergic crisis (anaphylaxis) is life-threatening. Boiled nettles lose all the sting, but are a nutritious vegetable. No danger there. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 7th, 2005, 12:50am The last thing I'd give a cluster sufferer outside of a hospital setting would be anything containing histamine. Even in the histamine treatment, if the flow is set too high, it WILL induce a cluster attack. The key to the desensitization is a low/constant dose. Don't think I'd want to eat a Nettle every hour on the hour for a few weeks. Plus not knowing how large a dose is in one. Bobw |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 7th, 2005, 8:21am Day 10 - Zu Testing A good weekend. Pretty much a return to "normal life" with a slight awareness that the beast still lurks. Went running Sunday morning and had a shadow afterwards for 30 minutes. Thanked the guy upstairs for creating Kudzu after it was over and went about my day. Came up with analogy for how the Kudzu seems to "feel". It's like a condom for Cluster Headaches....... I'm not sure that's much help for understanding for the ladies, but guys, you might get my drift. Sorry to hear results are a little inconsistent -- kind of like everything else that works for some and not others. At least it's a low cost option for a try for those willing to give it a go. It doesn't sound like the percentages are all that different than success ratios for just about everything else on the list for the clusterhead main survey. I'm going to see how this week goes with a return to normal activity levels and if things seem okay by midweek consider coming off the zu to see if the cycle is wrapping up. ::) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 7th, 2005, 9:08am Well, hell... How much of this is because of the kudzu and how much of it is because this seems to be a really odd cycle? I was pain-free all weekend. Saturday, I took four doses. Sunday, I took one dose. Sunday afternoon, while reading a book, I had a very mild hit. Just barely noticeable... Other than that, I've been pain-free. /not looking a gift-horse in the mouth.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 7th, 2005, 9:13am I like your analogy, boomer. I got hit yesterday, or mini-hit, if you will. I was telling my husband that it was like there was a "barrier" between the pain and my pain receptors. It only lasted about 10 minutes and didn't go over a 3...but it was a hit. Came on fast and with intensity. Lots of shadows over the weekend and I'm probably going to add another 750 mgs today. So my total daily will be 2250 mgs. Still thinking that this is a whole lot better than before. ;;D Question Flo...Are phyto estrogens the same kind one would get in "bio-identical" HRT? I used oral estrogen for years that did nothing. My accupuncturist prescribed bio-identical hormones (applied on the skin) and there was an instant improvement. I'm not using them now...just wondering. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Mar 7th, 2005, 10:20am on 03/07/05 at 09:13:49, nani wrote:
Whole-E-Cow!!! 2250mg???? If I go over about 750mg in a day's time I get all dizzy and light headed....but the Zu is doing well for me so far....day 4 and no real hits, just some shadows, and not over kip 2/3 or so....I'm taking 150mg solaray capsules....150mg before breakfast, 150mg before lunch, 150 before dinner, and 150 more with my melatonin/benadryl at bedtime...(I also take enteric coated aspirin throughout the day to keep the shadows in line and my blood thin) You must have a better tolerance for it than I do.....if I even take 2 capsules (300mg) at the same time, it makes we weak and dizzy.... :o |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 7th, 2005, 11:21am on 03/07/05 at 09:13:49, nani wrote:
No, not bio-identical. A bio-identical estrogen or progesterone is chemically 100% the same as the hormone produced in the body. Some HRT is bio-identical, some are based on other types of estrogen or progesterone compounds. Estrogen and progesterone are steroids. Phytoestrogens are not steroids - they are isoflavones or lignans or other compounds that have some ability to bind to the estrogen receptor. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 7th, 2005, 11:35am Thanks, flo. :) Really Boyce? I think this is the first time I've seen any side effects reported. I'm glad it's working for you. :) The one I take has a number of other herbs in it, perhaps it helps me tolerate it better? Or it could be that what people have been telling me for years is true: I'm already dizzy. ::) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 7th, 2005, 11:37am on 03/07/05 at 10:20:18, Boyce wrote:
There are different brands - Solaray and Nature's Way use concentrated extracts. They don't say how concentrated, but for other herbs, it may be a 4x to 20x concentration (they take out the wood, starch, and other inactive ingredients). Planetary Herbs is a mix of kudzu and other herbs - the 750 mg is total for the tablet. Definitely a good idea to start within the reccommended doses for the brand you are using... going above that dose may increase the risk of side effects. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 7th, 2005, 12:02pm So far, only two notable side effects: My skin seems to be more acne prone, and uh... it makes me poop a lot. [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 7th, 2005, 12:11pm I thought I noticed an increase in pimples myself - I am not in cycle, but taking it for blood pressure/tinnitus. A few more pimples on the shoulders at first, seems to be calming down recently. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 7th, 2005, 1:20pm on 03/07/05 at 11:37:54, floridian wrote:
Agreed. At 3 tablets a day I will still only be taking half of what the bottle recommends. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 7th, 2005, 1:32pm Good weekend, and once again great for shadows. No noticeable acne activity that couldn't be attributed to other causes. Also if there is an increase of acne, wouldn't that mean there is an increase of androgenic hormones? Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 7th, 2005, 1:33pm on 03/07/05 at 13:32:31, ozzy wrote:
Hey, I'm only up to a B cup, Ozzy! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 7th, 2005, 1:42pm Hey Frank, actually it would be the other way around, more in the testosterone family.... Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 7th, 2005, 1:46pm Oh! *clearing throat and speaking in a MANLY MAN voice* So.... *scratch scratch* How 'bout them Bears? [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 7th, 2005, 2:51pm Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 7th, 2005, 3:00pm Bob, BTW I'm not saying that an increase of androgenic hormones is the mechanism of action, but a side effect. (*If* it is an actual side effect) Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 7th, 2005, 3:19pm As a matter of fact it wouldn't be too bad for most men to take Kudzu, as it appears to be beneficial in the prevention of prostate cancer.... Quote:
Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 8th, 2005, 9:25am I'm going to begin tapering off the zu beginning today with hopes that the storm has passed. I'm cutting dose half to 613mg 3 x daily for 2 days to see how things go. I'll let you all know how it goes. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 8th, 2005, 10:20am Ditto, Boomer. I've been pain-free since last Friday, so this morning, I skipped it. I'll see how it goes, this evening. *crossing fingers* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Mar 8th, 2005, 10:21am okay I have my natures way kudzu and I started off with 2 tabs (613mg) 3 times a day. I'm taking verap too and also b complex and magnesium. All day sunday I was so dizzy I couldn't even sit up without feeling like I was going to fall over. SO.. yesterday I cut it to one tab 3x daily and got the brown and tacky stuff hammered out of me last night. I've decided to try taking 1 tab 6 x a day again today but I'm going to space everything out so I don't take verap and zu at the same time ever. Has anyone else been really dizzy and did it go? Other than the dizzyness its been great. Apart from last night I had one hit since starting it but more shadows. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 8th, 2005, 10:39am I'm glad you're getting some relief, Helen. :) It sounds like spacing the verap and the kudzu is a good idea. Keep an eye on your blood pressure, since kudzu has some BP lowering effects as well. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Mar 8th, 2005, 10:49am I'm keeping an eye on my BP nani.. its still normal but I do have a low BP anyway. Good advice though so thank you! |
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Title: ::)Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Mar 8th, 2005, 4:00pm Hey Y'ALL!!!!!!! I think I'm finally starting to get some relief.....pray...pray....pray.....I discussed all my Cluster options with my husband last night....talking about finding another neuro....about investigating clusterbusters.....(he's much more conservative that I am....but willing to support me in anything I need)....and we decided to just go for it and increase the kudzu to 3 pills of Kudzu at night 900mgs of Nature's Way along with the rest of my stuff....ie....meletonin....magnesium....zonegran....etc....and low and behold I awoke with one fairly weak cluster that went away with a little bit of O2....then I awoke once again....purely out of 6 months of habit I guess......WITHOUT ANY HEADACHE......I got up and drank some water and went back to bed and slept like a baby.... ;;D ;;D Pray that I continue to have success..... Love y'all Karen PS....wedding went off without a hitch...my daughter and her hubby are in Hawaii right now on their honeymoon....sigh! ::) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 8th, 2005, 5:06pm OUTSTANDING, Karen!! WHOO-HOO!! [smiley=sayyes.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 8th, 2005, 5:23pm That's great Karen!! I'm so glad it's finally kicking in for you! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tim_Z on Mar 8th, 2005, 10:48pm I've been folowing this thread and think this is just amazing. I am not due for my next cycle for a little under two years, maybe by then all of the bugs will be worked out. Hopefully it will work for me. Floridian, I read where you said that it was helping for your tinnitus, can you tell me more? Mine comes and goes, the last two or three days I have had this high pitched ringing (my sister has it and says her's is a low pitched hum). My BP is usally around 130/88. This is one great thread, thanks Floridian. Tim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 9th, 2005, 6:22am on 03/08/05 at 22:48:56, Tim_Z wrote:
The use of kudzu for tinnitus is a traditional one listed everywhere, but I'm not sure about how effective it is - I haven't seen any clear change yet. There are different causes of tinnitus - mine is on one side, and gets really loud when I clench my jaw. It also tends to be louder when my neck gets bent out of shape while I sleep. For some people, the tinnitus is more a microcirculation issue. My blood pressure has been closer to normal since starting kudzu - in the 120s over 80s, down around 10-20 points. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 9th, 2005, 7:57am Well, I went off of the kudzu and was pain-free since Friday. I was optimistic that the kudzu would act on the cycle the way a prednisone taper would. I got hit last night with a Kip-7. So.... Back on the 'zu. The cool thing is, it IS working! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 9th, 2005, 9:28am (Sorry Nani, forgot to post to the "kudzu" thread) Okay, I decided to stop tapering after my lunch dose yesterday and stop altogether. And with un-f&*#@ing believable coincidence to Frank, got hit last night about midnight. On the BRIGHTSIDE...it was only a Kip 3 to 4 and lasted for about 45 minutes. I don't usually get little ones, most of them fully blooming into 6-10's --- so, as I say, not too bad. almost exactly like the ones I got the first couple nights on Kudzu. A Kip 3 seemed like a walk in the park and I actually found myself with wierd sense of glee that it wasn't advancing last night as I sat in the dark. So i'm going to stick it out for a few days off the kudzu and see if the cycle wraps up completely. This is not all that disappointing to me. I definitely have results from the Kudzu, and this continued behavior indicates that this stuff is doing something. I'm really trying to test things here to see what the actual effects are -- and since I take nothing else this may give some indication of the potential of Kudzu. We'll see how tonight goes staying off. My major concern with Kudzu is whether it is blunting the effect, kind of like white noise, leaving you with a hypothalamajingy that's still on the fritz. Which isn't altogether a bad thing, but I so look forward to a cycle's departure that i'm obsessing on this concern. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Mar 9th, 2005, 10:57am on 03/08/05 at 10:21:26, LeLimey wrote:
Hey Helen.... I'm taking 150mg Solaray ( http://www.affordablesolaray.com/3680.html ) and the first day or two was taking 2 capsules (300mg) at lunch and two more at bedtime.....and I felt like you describe...tired, weak, and dizzy. I started spacing them out, 150 w/breakfast, 150 w/lunch, 150 w/dinner and 150 before bed [smiley=sleep.gif] I don't feel tired/weak/dizzy anymore and have only had shadows since I started the Kudzu, and I can manage them with a couple enteric-coated apsirin... Hope your PFDAN's continue! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] --Boyce |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 9th, 2005, 5:58pm A vigorous grower, but a few gardening tips for kudzu are here: http://www.locksley.com/kudzu.htm[/quote] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] Are you kidding????!!!! I think this stuff is growing in my front yard. Anyone want to buy my lovely 4 bedroom ranch? I'm willing to negotiate! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 9th, 2005, 6:07pm Wall friends - especially Nani, the Kudzu does not seem to be working for me at all. It started out great - the first week on it was marvelous - short HA, lower K levels. I was a very happy camper. Then, I started getting hits all day long and all night long, when before Kudzu, I only had CH in the evenings. Also had "other" HA. It got especially bad during the day when I was at work. Hits weren't at the 10 level, but they were high enough that I had to shut the door to my office, turn off my phone, and pace around my desk for 15 to 20 minutes. Not bad you think, but I had to do this at least four times a day, only to go home and get hits all evening and night long. The only meds I was taking was the Kudzu (Nature's Way 613 mg capsules - 2 caps 3 times/day as directed on bottle) On Friday 3/4 I stopped "cold turkey" ALL meds. Used nothing except water and ice pack. My CH are still with me, unfortunately, but, again, only in the evenings - no at work (just shadows), and no at night. I'm going to stay in this routine for a week and see how things go. - sort of "clean out my system", so to speak. Then I'll give the Kudzu another shot and see what happens. I'm so happy that it's working for so many of you. Wish I could say the same here. Luv & kisses XXXOOO :-* :-* :-* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 9th, 2005, 8:48pm :'( I'm sorry, Sandy.... :( Can you get some oxygen to help you ride out the de-tox? I'm glad you want to try again, I think it's worth a try. I'm sending hugs and PF vibes, sweetie.... [smiley=hug.gif] :-* nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT Non-activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 9th, 2005, 9:49pm on 03/09/05 at 18:07:50, Sandy_C wrote:
Chide thyself not, lass. Every vote counts, both negative and positive. A 100% success rate would be kind of unbelievable. How's the "yellow" thing going? Keep the faith. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 9th, 2005, 10:48pm Off the Verap for 4 days now. Since I went off the Verap I have experienced a definite increase in shadows/minor hits. Not too much, way less painful and way less frequent than my normal hits/shadows. Although the shadows on that first day were worse than they are now. Tomorrow will be day 21 on Kudzu for me. Not completely pain free, but an incredible improvement from where I was 3 weeks ago. On the downside, I only have enough Kudzu to get me through tomorrow, and then I am out. My local store ran out, and ordered more for me, and promised it would be there by tomorrow. I found it at the store down the street, but it is a different brand/concentration/concotion, and I want to stay with what I know works. I am in class all freakin day tomorrow, so hopefully I can get it Friday without skipping a beat. Cutting it close tough. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Mar 10th, 2005, 12:14am hey seasonal boomer good luck to ya. Im about to try the same thing. My cycle should be just about over and im stepping down the dose to only 750mg a day from 3000. I hope the cycle actually ends and wasnt just being delayed or some such bullsh*t. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 10th, 2005, 8:07am Good luck, Shiraj. After going completely OFF of kudzu, I got hit pretty hard, the night before last, so yesterday, I took a dose in the morning, and another, just before bed. I was completely pain-free yesterday, and didn't get hit last night, either. Life is good! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 10th, 2005, 9:49am Stayed out of the zu Tuesday and Wed and into today and didn't have any hits last night. Full night of sleep except for my sweet Lab waking me up for "potties" at about 3:41 a.m. I didn't go hard at the vigorous exercise last night as I had planned (just didn't feel like challenging things that directly) -- we'll see how gutsy I feel tonight. That news from SandyC is sad, but you still see it did "something". This stuff, even in those that are not experiencing great relief, is goofing with cycles in some manner. Hoping Flo's making some sense of the limited data being yielded. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 10th, 2005, 10:46am on 03/10/05 at 09:49:06, seasonalboomer wrote:
The data gives a strong indication that kudzu does help many people with clusters - I think it is clearly beyond any random sampling error or 'placebo' effect. It gives decent to excellent relief to maybe 80% of the people that tried it (rough approximation, haven't crunched numbers yet). It isn't a cure - it is a treatment. It helps some people that were not able to control their headaches using other therapies. Reported side effects are mostly mild and seem to be less a problem when the dose is divided up more. 13 people have given one week data, and a few more people have reported good results but haven't filled out the 1 week survey. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Mar 10th, 2005, 10:51am Cool! another weapon in the batbelt. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by karma on Mar 10th, 2005, 11:19am Quote:
Just wondering if the "pulsing technique' that Chedden introduced for Lithium would be as affective with the Kudzu. any info on 1/2 life, absorbtion time with the kudzu? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 10th, 2005, 12:09pm on 03/10/05 at 11:19:47, karma wrote:
I think some of us have taken that approach already. If there's any regularity to hits and shadows, dose before them. I'm not sure it has to be as complicated as the lithium method that was introduced. Early on in this trial, I developed a "regular" 10:30 PM shadow. (I am never regular.) If I took my kudzu by 10 PM....no shadow. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Mar 10th, 2005, 12:11pm I imagine the pulsing teCHnique could be applied to any of the medicines to enhance their effectiveness. a big question still to be answered is what happens after Kudzu is withdrawn. Will the symptoms return? or is the cycle broken for good? Right now all we know is that it stops the pain (or masks most of it) while taking multiple daily doses... right? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 10th, 2005, 12:37pm I've reduced my dosage of kudzu to twice a day. I take two tablets upon awakening, with my multi-vitamin. Then, just prior to sleep, I take the other dose of kudzu. So far, this seems to be working well. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Mar 10th, 2005, 7:24pm Doing the zu 16 days now. Did great for the first 8 days,just a few shadows.Then a killer,didn't last long but a kip 9 for sure.Then another week almost PF.But today as soon as I got home from work the friggin' deamon stabbed me in my right eye.02'd my way out of it,and now just dealing with some shadows.I'm going to increase my Kudzu by 1/3 and start taking one in the morning and two at bedtime(I'm doing the Solray extract 150 mg.)Hope it works.Sure do appreciate the input all of you have put into this thread.For the first time in many years I've found something that might really work.Just have to fine tune my dosage.Thanks to all and have a PF night. :DDavid |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 10th, 2005, 8:23pm David, last week, there was a day when I got nailed with three low-level hits throughout the day, so before bed, I took a fourth dose. That seemed to do the trick with no adverse side effects. The next day, I was back down to the normal dosage. I don't know if this will help you in a similar manner or not... PFDAN's to you, bro'. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 10th, 2005, 9:22pm [quote author=vig link=board=meds;num=1107368408;start=350#364 date=03/10/05 at 12:11:48]I imagine the pulsing teCHnique could be applied to any of the medicines to enhance their effectiveness. a big question still to be answered is what happens after Kudzu is withdrawn. Will the symptoms return? or is the cycle broken for good? Right now all we know is that it stops the pain (or masks most of it) while taking multiple daily doses... right?[/quote] I've been thinking about that first question for a couple of days now, Paul. I am not anxious to find out in my case. But it's a question that should be answered, especially for chronics. I'm enjoying too much PF time to put myself out there on that limb yet. Like Frank, I'd be willing to take it everyday for the rest of my life if it continued to give me this much relief. As for your second question... Right. Tomorrow I will have been on this for 5 full weeks. My PF time has increased to about 95% of the time. I am still taking only 1/2 the recommended amount on the bottle. And I've drastically reduced my prescription prevents, also, hoping to get off them completely at some point. I think the biggest change for me though, is not so much the PF time, but the way I deal with the pain. Before kudzu, I would have an occasional moment here and there during the day when I'd think..."Hey, I'm PF at this moment!" And I'd savor each minute, because they were so few and far between. Now, every so often I notice I'm having a little shadow and I think "F*ck...a shadow....what a PITA!" But then, it's gone in a couple of minutes and I go right back to taking PF time for granted. :) Edited to add: My local herb store was out of kudzu the other day, so I went online and ordered from www.iherb.com I went for free standard shipping and the bottles cost $5.00 less already. I ordered it Tues and I just received it today! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Mar 10th, 2005, 10:25pm on 03/10/05 at 21:22:34, nani wrote:
I know that feeling as well....pain free days are kinda like sex...they're easy to take for granted until you're not getting any ;;D 8AM tomorrow morning will be exactly one week off Relpax and onto Kudzu for me.....have to remember to fill out the survery.... g'night all.... [smiley=snore.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Mar 10th, 2005, 11:59pm I had one night where I only got hit once...small li'l hit that went away with O2 and then slept .....then one FULL WONDERFUL NIGHT.......aaaahhhhhh ;;D where I slept all the way through the night without a cluster at all......then last night I got hit twice....about a kip 4 to 6.....hmmmm...a bit of a bummer as my hopes got up.....this cycle is the wierdest ever.....I wonder if it will ever wind down....either way I'm taking 2 pills in the am and 3 pills at night of Nature's Way and its time to buy some more....hmmmm....don't know what kind this time....but either way I think it might be helping and I don't want to stop.... G'night all....sleep well....and pain free! :-* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 11th, 2005, 7:58am Okay: Back to the regular recommended dosage, today. I got nailed last night with a Kip-6 that lasted for about forty minutes. *sigh* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 11th, 2005, 8:09am Sorry about the hits Frank. I hope it improves. I had shadows all day yesterday. And I feel them again this morning. I have been off ther Verapamil for like a week now, and am wondering if it leaving my system is what is screwing me up. On the other hand, it may be that the Kudzu and Verapamil together were doing something good for me. If the shadows continue/worsen, then I will try going back on Verapamil at a low dose at first, and see what happens. BTW - Do we have the record for longest thread yet? Not that it matters, just wondering? Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 11th, 2005, 9:17am Whatever's working for you, Casey: Stick with it!! That's why I'm going back to the recommended dosage. I know it worked, and I know it will continue to work. As for the longest thread, this one is certainly getting there, isn't it? LOL Hang in there! PFDAN's! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 11th, 2005, 9:30am Haven't had anymore kudzu in 4 days now. No hits since Monday's brain tickle. I've decided I won't push it by trying to catch up on marathon training and simply withdraw from Apr 16th marathon. Moments of clarity --- run and get hit hard, or relax and be painfree, hmmmmmmmmmm. Sorry to hear your getting hit Frank. I feel as though my test is showing that my cycle wasn't extended as I feared and that as a preventative it did what I hoped for during cycle -- and after a transition day or two I seem okay coming off of it. And the fear that Kim had yesterday that you may have to take it through your whole cycle may be true --- leaving you to be the judge of when you think your cycle is truly ending and the timing of coming off of it. Since there seems to be these wierd transition days upsetting the cycle behavior with wierd hits, goofed up timing, etcc... it is probably best to be safer than sorry --- since the there don't seem to be any substantive side effects. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 11th, 2005, 10:13am Thanks, Boomer. I don't mind taking this stuff for the duration of the cycle. The thought of it doesn't bother me in the least. :) I'm glad your cycle seems to be coming to an end. I tried going off of the kudzu for a few days, and was pain-free until the third day, so be cautious, yet optimistic. Good luck and PFDAN's! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 11th, 2005, 12:24pm The strangest thing happened to me this morning. I think the best way to describe it is a "phantom" hit. I noticed my left (cluster side) nostril running for a few minutes, than my left eye started watering and drooping...a lot. I looked in the mirror and saw a k9 face... really droopy eye with some swelling. My eyelid was twitching, too. But the strange thing...absolutely NO PAIN. Not even activity or pressure to speak of. Just like a hit would've, it lasted about 40 minutes. I drove mooshie to school and even ran a couple of errands and it didn't affect me in the least. Hmmm... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 11th, 2005, 12:53pm "I looked in the mirror and saw a k9 face" Nani, So, was it like a German shepherd, or more like a Lab face? On as serious note. That's freaky isn't it. Something is wierd with this stuff. As most of us discard most of our vanity at the entrance to the CH festival, I guess i'll take K9 face and no pain, asopposed to K9 face with M-80 eye. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 11th, 2005, 12:57pm on 03/11/05 at 12:53:45, seasonalboomer wrote:
ROTFLMAO, Scott!!! I didn't even notice that! If I had to pick a breed...maybe a pug? I agree...pain free and droopy works for me. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 11th, 2005, 4:39pm Well, it's been a full week since I stopped the Kudzu. Hasn't been a very pleasant week, but at least I think the "system is cleaned out now". Going to begin the Kudzu again tomorrow. This time, I think I'll try pulsing the doses. Instead of 2 morning, 2 noon, and 2 evening, I'll spread the 6 capsules out evenly between 7:00 AM and bedtime. We'll see. Wish me luck! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 11th, 2005, 4:43pm Good luck, Sandy. I noticed the same thing: When I take the final dose too early in the evening, I still get hit at night. If I leave it until just prior to going to bed, I don't get hit. PFDAN's. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 12th, 2005, 12:29am on 03/11/05 at 12:24:55, nani wrote:
This is something that some people using shrooms mention. Sometimes a few of the related autonomic responses remain for a while, as the cyle ends. The first thing to go is the pain....which, if we all had our choice, would be just that. If you were a shroomer....I'd advise taking a small booster dose to wipe out the remaining vestiges of the cycle if they continued. Not that I know anything about the kudzu treatment but you might want to consider upping your dose for a day or two?, if these signs continue or worsen. I know you've been holding back on that very thing but I'd be interested in hearing what your kudzu buds think. keep the faith, An interested spectator, Bobw |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by jokrs2 on Mar 12th, 2005, 12:38pm Hi everyone. I have just completed my 8th day on Planetary Formula Kudzu Recovery 750mg pill 3x/day between meals. During this time I went through complete Morphine withrawal after taking daily for the last 14 years. During the last 9 days I have not taken Imitrex. Because of the properties of the Kudzu my withrawal symptoms were not at all severe peaking at 32 - 35 hours and it has now been over 58 hours and I just have some residual sneezing and low back ache, but not bad. I had a CH hit 2 days ago while I was in full withdrawal but it never went to a 10. CH GREATLY diminished with only a slight shadow this morning. Hits are not lasing as long and I didn't have a full blown one when I woke this morning. I would like to add that I believe the Morphine was not helping my CH as is now evident, and was actually causing rebound migraine. I am so excited about the results of Kudzu I am now covered with goosebumps telling you about my experience with it. I for one will be staying with Kudzu from here on, what a Godsend. Hoping everyone else finds their answer and relief. God bless. :D Your friend, Joe |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 12th, 2005, 3:39pm and I have goosebumps reading your post Joe. God bless ya man! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 12th, 2005, 6:04pm OUTSTANDING, Joe!! WHOO-HOO!!! *shooting off Roman Candles* Fantastic!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 13th, 2005, 12:30pm Day 37 on kudzu.... observations: While I may be 98% PF all week, weekends are only about 80%. The shadows are still short lived and easy, but there are more of them. I'm not sure why, yet... I have cut way down on other prevents, but I ran out of Verapamil and found that morning to be especially difficult. I have very high BP, so that's probably why. I did increase the kudzu the day after the "phantom" hit, but I'm not sure it made much difference. Since I'm chronic and big hits never had much of a pattern, I'm not sure it makes much difference. I still did not have any pain during that "hit". And finally... the other night I took the kids out for ice cream. The place was packed, very noisy and had ceiling fans that threw strobe like shadows all over the place. Normally, these things would have been triggers. In a way, they were. While I had absolutely no pain or even activity...I suddenly became as agitated and unable to be still as if I were getting hit. All the physical and emotional responses to a CH, except for the actual HA. I had to pace outside the shop while my hubby and kids enjoyed ice cream. :( edited to add: I'm still not complaining, mind you...I wouldn't trade this for anything. Ooops...and another observation I forgot to add before: Kudzu has not helped with my inability to sleep like normal people. I still suffer from insomnia and get overwhelmingly sleepy in the middle of the day. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Mar 13th, 2005, 12:48pm Nani my husband gets migraines and he always seems to get them at weekends. He has a theory that because you have more of a set regime thourgh the week, work school etc that when you interrupt that at weekends it is what triggers his migraines. Seems to make sense to me... what do you think? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 13th, 2005, 12:54pm on 03/13/05 at 12:48:38, LeLimey wrote:
That does make sense, Helen. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 13th, 2005, 2:50pm Yep, sleeping and eating get less regular during the weekend. When applicable, more alcohol consumed over the weekends. More time spent in bright light. Etc. Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 13th, 2005, 3:05pm Caffeine withdrawal a trigger among big coffee drinkers that sleep late: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1576651 not CH specific, but maybe relevant. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 13th, 2005, 9:18pm My Kudzu report, day # (no clue, it's been a month at least) Since it's been working so great for me, I decided it was time to help my wife with her "monthly"migraines. She responds incredibly well to the triptans. So she started on 3 kudzu's a day. Halfway though the wekk, without an ounce of pain she decided that it was working well enough so she stopped taking them. 24 hours later she got hit with a pretty good migraine. (as I found out before, 'dzu is great for shaodws, not for actual hits) At this point she decided to take Imitrex NS. It usually works. Not this time, it hardly touched it. She had to take a second dose later that day to reduce the intensity of the migraine. Since then. She had one more migraine. This week is over and we learned the lesson(s). Next time, she will take 'dzu for the whole episode. The second lesson (possibly, or just conjecture) is that Imitrex, or perhaps other triptans may not work as desired during kudzu treatment. I also think that there is some additive effects with the kudzu, i.e. the longer you take it, the more stable your system becomes. At some point, you reduce the dose until, you don't need it. Only time will tell. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 14th, 2005, 7:42am Fantastic, Ozzy! The news on kudzu just seems to get better and better... :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 14th, 2005, 8:27am Kutzu- round two update. On Friday I told you I was going to try the zu route again on Saturday morning, since first attempt failed miserbly. Friday night, Igot hit with a lovely k9 right before dinner, which I completely missed (and we were having steak and crab legs! :'(). Horrible night. Saturday morning, heavy, heavy shadows and sheer exhaustion. Took first zu (1 cap) at 7:00 am, and spread them out, one cap every three hours (6 total for the day). No major hits on Saturday, just all day long shadows and tiredness (lack of sleep, I'm sure). Sunday morning dawned - gorgeous weather - gorgeous day. Some baby shadows here and there but absolutely nothing happened. Went shopping with hubby to "fun places" like Home Depot and Lowe's (oh joy). Had lovely dinner last night and sat down for a nice evening. At 8:40 got CH - about a level 5, lasting until 9:20. Not bad. Then, for the rest of the night had very very sharp pains in the tri-whatever it is nerves (i can't spell it and I sure as heck can't pronounce it). These were not like my typical CH - no droopy eye, no runny nose, just these God awful shooting, stabbing pains in my head from top of scalp all over right side down into right side of neck. One "attack" would come on and last about 20 to 30 minutes, and then back off for maybe an hour until the next one. I was up half the night with them. What is this?????l Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Sticking with the zu, though. Not gonna give up without a good fight. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 14th, 2005, 9:20am Sandy, when I first started the kudzu, I was getting some "icepick" pains, but they were very shortlived. I used to get them now and then before kudzu as well, but they increased my first few days on kudzu. I don't know if your's are the same, since they last much longer. [smiley=huh.gif] Gosh...I hope you feel lots better very soon. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 14th, 2005, 10:27am A full week after stopping taking Kudzu root extract and I feel as though my cycle has indeed finished. A PF weekend which included running in warm temperatures and red wine (that's not bragging --- that's my way of taking a big stick and poking the beast to see if he's really in hibernation or simply taking a short breather.) My summary of the experience. All indications are that it worked and I think anyone who is either not having success with other preventatives, or is tired of the side effects from their present med regime should give it a try. There is very little to lose, it would seem --- and the potential of a great gain and improvement of quality of life. If and when my Fall cycle shows signs of coming I will start immediately with the Kudzu again and evaluate the efficacy again at that time. Many thanks to all keeping all this info flowing and PF days to everyone. Floridian, you're quite a CH citizen. Please feel free to contact me regarding my experience if you have questions. Scott |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 14th, 2005, 10:45am on 03/14/05 at 08:27:39, Sandy_C wrote:
Way to go Sandy. Whether its with Kudzu or something else, fight the beast. I hope it gets better for you. I have had some bouts with sharp shooting pains on my cluster side since taking the Kudzu. They ususally are very short lived, and quite frustrating. Stick with it and let us know how it turns out. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in KudzuScott, Post by ozzy on Mar 14th, 2005, 10:58am Sandy, that is similar to what I felt the first day. It waned with time to PF Scott, Congratulations! Way to kick the beast's ass!! Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Mar 14th, 2005, 11:10am cool stuff people, keep it comin'.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 14th, 2005, 11:14am That's great, Scott! I'm so happy for you! ;;D Don't go away...stick around and encourage others!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 14th, 2005, 12:00pm Wonderful, Scott!! I've been taking two kudzu and one half of my two-a-day multi-vitamin as soon as I awaken. Then, around 3-4 in the afternoon, I take the second dose of both. Then, just prior to sleep, I take the third dose of kudzu. This has kept me pain-free, so far. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Mar 14th, 2005, 11:42pm Here's my update on the Kudzu......I think I have been on it straight at differing levels for about 2 1/2 to 3 weeks....I'm not sure....Remember I was geting hit 3 big ones a night after getting off the Maxalt which was giving me rebound hits all day and night.....ayayayeee!!! Soooooo.....I got the Kudzu....it didn't do much at first....but as I increased the dosage to 2 pills in the am (600mgs)...Nature's Way.....2 at noonish and then 3 pills at night right before bedtime.....I had a FULL peaceful nights sleep last night....HALLELUJAH!!!!! I take magnesium sterate or something like that at night along with 3 mgs of melatonin.....Hope this keeps up and I'll start to ween off my Zonegran.....after awhile of course..... Love you all, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 14th, 2005, 11:57pm on 03/14/05 at 23:42:55, godsjoy777 wrote:
Lay off the magnesium and melatonin. Oh. And the Zonegran. You can always take them again later. Beta testing is hard work. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Mar 15th, 2005, 5:55am Well after a ropey old start when I was getting extremely dizzy I have now had a full week of taking kudzu at 6 tabs of Natures Way a day. I take them one at a time four times a day and two together last thing at night and that has solved the dizziness problem. It has also helped with not getting hit at night so thats been great! I have had one night time hit this week but that was after I was woken by my son anyway and it was the classic about an hour (ish) after going back to bed myself. So far... alot more shadows than normal but only three hits in the entire week all of which have been much more subdued than normal and all of which have been considerably shorter. I'm wondering if, like everyone else the shadows are hits with the oomph kicked out of them? I think its probably the case. I'm definitely delighted with my experience so far and I'm eager to see how I will be reporting back NEXT Tuesday.. if having it build up in your system improves the status in week two or whatever? This is now Week 27 of my cycle so I am really really hoping this stuff finally knocks it on the head. At least if it doesn't it is giving me a bit more of my life back and that is priceless. Other than the dizzyness I haven't noticed any other side effects unless you can attribute my tiredness to it? I have found I've felt alot more tired this week.. and I've slept more! That's not a whinge though ;) Thanks Floridian et al. This has made a huge difference to me and (being greedy) I'm still hoping for more! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 15th, 2005, 8:21am Good morning - and I mean that literally - it is a GOOD morning! I actually had a good night's sleep last night. It's amazing how much better and stronger you feel if you just can get a little sleep. Yesterday was pretty good - no hits or shadows (maybe a baby one or two) all day. At my usual CH time (8:30 pm or so), felt one coming on and just chilled out to see what it was going to do. Not much - only a k2 or 3 and lasted only 15 minutes! After that, a few icepicks in my head. The day before, the icepicks were awful all night long. Great improvement. I am taking ONLY the kudzu, one 613 mg every three hours - absolutely nothing else but water water water (I've got three bathrooms in my house and I'm on VERY friendly terms with the commodes), not even during hits. The icepicks are annoying though. Do you think I could maybe take one Aleve in the evenings or could this cause rebounds. Remember, during my first go-round with kudzu I was taking extra strength Excedrin for the picks and got terrible rebounds. Don't want to experience that again! Anyway, today will be 4th day of round two on kudzu. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 15th, 2005, 9:15am Sandy, that is WONDERFUL!! Congratulations. I would recommend taking the kudzu just before your evening attack, or if you get hit while sleeping, take it just before bedtime. I take my first dose upon awakening, (5:30 a.m.) the second in the evening (around 5 or 6), and the third dose just prior to bedtime. (10:30-11:00) Very best wishes and PFDAN's! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 15th, 2005, 9:30am For those of you who've been around a lot longer than I. Is this, as one poster on another string put it, "giddiness" over kudzu, or are you hearing something that is pretty special here? As we evaluate those that are seeing results, do the factors that contribute to positive results mirror those who see success using the clusterbusters routine? If so, are those clear enough for us to begin building a set of kudzu suggestions that can improve results? ----- |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 15th, 2005, 11:48am on 03/14/05 at 23:57:18, Mr. Happy wrote:
Actually....I never stopped my prevents early on and am still weaning off them. I didn't get into this to beta test, I got in it to get relief. Also added magnesium at the same time as kudzu. Helen and Sandy...glad you guys finally got some relief. :) Edited to add: ...and Karen, too! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by jokrs2 on Mar 15th, 2005, 4:49pm Hi everyone! The Kudzu is definitely working!! ;;D It's not perfect, but I am having just shadows the last 2 days after increasing my dosage to 2 pills of Planetary Formulas Kudzu Recovery blend 3x daily. Have been taking it for 11 days now. Am supplementing with a good multivitamin with b complex and chromium and taking 6mg of melatonin to aid with sleep. It is a great alternative to what I was taking which was Morphine Sulfate, Imitrex, and Avapro as a preventative. I want to thank everyone who helped make the information about Kudzu possible. My world is getting better and that is priceless to me and my family. :) God bless, Joe |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 15th, 2005, 5:50pm Outstanding, Joe!! Congratulations! I hope it just gets better and better. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 16th, 2005, 8:19am Day 4 (yesterday) report - not so good. The day started out wonderful. Everything went great all day - just some small shadows. I followed your advise, Nani, and took my evening dose at 7:30, about an hour before my usual hit time of 8:30. At 8:30 sharp, here comes the CH and it went to a k9 level. Only lasted about 30 minutes, but was really awful. It finally subsided to heavy shadows and some icepicks. At 10:00 I got hit with a k4 (took another dose of zu as soon as it began), which lasted about 15 minutes, and then I went to bed. About midnight hit with a k3 lasting 15 minutes. After that, I was able to go to sleep and slept pretty well. This morning I have fairly heavy shadows and a few picks here and there. We'll see how day 5 goes. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 16th, 2005, 9:58am Sandy I don't think it's all bad from what you're describing. It seems the intensity and duration are diminishing. As has been adviced before with regards to CH and any treatment, regularity is key. Regular intervals for meals, regular bed time. All with consistency. For sleeping that's where the melatonin helps the most. I have reduced the amount of kudzu to 1 pill 3x a day. We'll see how it goes. Haven't had more than mild, extremely mild shadows. I still think that there is a an additive and regulating effect in all this. There must be. I don't know if takes the shrooms, followed by a maintenance dose as soon as the effects wear off in combination of melatonin or any permutation of all or some of those. But ideally our goal should be to ramp down the amount of supplemnts and/or drugs at some point so that the body can take care of itself. Basically we should use medicine, conventional or alternative to help the body regulate itself. So how do we do all this. Trial and error. We are bound to make a mistake and find a solution. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Mar 16th, 2005, 11:48am hey my cycle is over~! good luck to everyone else Sandy it sounds like its working for you. I had the same experience the third day of kudzu. Got hit real bad but very quick, like 20 minutes. I think youll be getting relief soon. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 16th, 2005, 12:06pm That's great, shiraj! Don't go away. Stick around and encourage others. :) Hang in there, Sandy ...maybe some change is better than no change. PF vibes and prayers to you! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeeS on Mar 16th, 2005, 12:35pm Just wanted to pop in here to say well done to everyone for experimenting with this, and congratulations to those who have had such good success. Well done too to Jonathan for identifying the potential for yet another alternative measure that seems to work extremely well. Shame that there maybe adverse effects when combining kudzu alongside the psilocybin therapy, but I know which route I shall travell should the shrooms become ineffective. Keep up the good work all, and may it bring you the positive results you deserve. -Lee |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Mar 16th, 2005, 2:00pm Yeah.....I had another full night's sleep....let's see....I think that is 2 or 3 now in a row.... with no cluster....Yesterday was shadowy all day long....but I am better today....KEEPING ON THE KUDZU for awhile longer.....just to be safe......I am like Nani....who knows about the study right now....I am staying taking some meletonin for a bit....Haven't had mush sleep in 6 months...its high time I got some....and the magnesium....I might start to slack off on that too soon.... Congrats to you all for trying this stuff and getting off of as much of the pharmaceuticals as you can....They seem to be the bigger problem..... Blessings, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 16th, 2005, 11:24pm Day 40 on the 'zu day 5 off lithium completely. It's still working pretty darn good. I continue to take 360 mgs verap (I tried cutting down to 240, but my BP went up) and 300 mgs of Neurontin. On Sat, I took another 300 mg of Neurontin to knock a shadow out, which it did. Now I just wait to take it during a shadow that lasts longer than 20 mins. Still getting occasional shadows during the week and more on weekends, but overall I am very satisfied with how all this is turning out. :) Continued good luck wishes to all... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 17th, 2005, 1:30am To confirm earlier speculation..... Undertaken for strictly scientific purposes, an experiment was conducted under strict laboratory conditions, testing what effects, if any, kudzu consumption may have upon the actions of psilocybin. Lab rat consumed 1226mg of Kudzu as prepared by nature's Way Products, Inc. of Springville, Utah, 3 times per day for a period of two days. Following a 4 hour time lapse after the last kudzu treatment, and standard preparation for psilocybin treatment (empty stomach), 1.5g of dried psilocybin mushrooms were consumed by the same lab rat. Outcome......absolutely no hallucinogenic effects were observed by the test subject. [editor's note: unfortunately had no effect] Observation: Although the sample size is small (1), the test subject was very experienced in determinating effects of psilocybin. It is this lab rat's opinion that kudzu, as speculated previously, does indeed block the effects of psilocybin. Therefore a suitable and yet to be determined kudzu detox period would have to be observed prior to beginning a psilocybin treatment. carry on.... ;;D Bobw |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by jokrs2 on Mar 17th, 2005, 2:09am Hi Bob (Pink Floyd) Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Pink Floyd and mushrooms, peyote, mescaline, mda or LSD & a bit of bud to mellow the going up....ah those were the days 8). I am using the Kudzu right now with good success. Got off Morph. & Trex. I'm hoping that the medicine testers can isolate the actual chemical that helps us in mushrooms, and create a legal med so that I don't have to risk going to jail by picking or getting caught with psilocyben. We have tons of it in Washington State. I helped pick and categorize 25+ varieties that grow here back in the 70's and the information was used to help write a book on identification and dose. I have not done any street drugs for 10 years this July 2nd. I am a stay at home dad with a 12 yr old being home schooled, so I cannot take the risk. Just for my own curiosity, are people actually enjoying the tripping and do any say that they have no problem doing this in front of their kids? Since I'm chronic I feel like I'd be ingesting shrooms constantly....... :-/ Best wishes & PFD&N's, Joe |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lab_Rat on Mar 17th, 2005, 2:36am Quote:
Yeah, those goddamn 5-HT2 receptor antagonists like kudzu are always getting in the way of a good high. >:([smiley=wtf.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 17th, 2005, 6:28am on 03/17/05 at 01:30:19, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Wow. So it seems it is the 5-HT2 blocking properties that make kudzu effective. And this gives some support to the idea that a dose of psilocybin works by the short term stimulation/long term down-regulation of the same. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:20am Day 5 report - Pretty good day yesterday until 5:30 pm. Started getting heavy shadows and small hit, just stuck with ice water and it was gone in a flash. Ate dinner, and took 2 zu at 8:00 in preparation for my usual 8:30 hit. Right on time, CH - but only about a k5 lasting about 20 minutes. Great! Got more low level hits (more than shadows) the rest of the evening, one coming on about 30 minutes after the previous one ended. Took last 2 zu at 10:30 and went to bed. Had two more hits during the night, enough to make me get up and walk around, again only lasting for a few minutes. I seem to be getting more hits than my normal cycle, but they are less intense and shorter. We'll see how day 6 goes. Hanging in there! Thanks for your support. Luv to all :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by JJA on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:37am Wow, I wonder if kudzu could end a bad (or good) trip or if it has to be pretreated. To me this suggests that kudzu is a powerful 5-ht2 antagonist. I believe this makes it similar to the atypical antipsychotics[Abilify (aripiprazole), Clozaril (Clozapine), Risperdal (risperidone), Seroquel (Quetiapine)] Quote:
Any known effect of kudzu on dopamine receptors? You better start filing for intellectual property rights floridian, you could be in for a big payday...Floridian Pharmaceuticals Inc. [smiley=laugh.gif] Jesse |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:38am Question Bobw... If kudzu blocked the hallucinogenic effect of psilocybin, does that mean it would automatically block any therapeutic effects? I ask because it seems that it's not neccesary to take enough to get the hallucinigenic effect in order to be therapeutic. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 17th, 2005, 10:01am on 03/17/05 at 08:37:55, JJA wrote:
Yeah, I was thinking it might be like olanzapine, which is consistent with your list of meds that end in -pine. At first, I wasn't sure if it was the serotonin, or the calcium-channel effects, or something else. But if kudzu blocks the hallucinogenic effects of psilocybin, there is a strong effect on the sertonin receptors. It also strongly suggests that kudzu will interfere with the cluster-busting effects of psilocybin. In my opinion, the chance that kudzu blocks only the hallucinogenic effects but not the cluster busting effects is small. It would be great if a combo led to less mental side effects and higher effectiveness. It could happen that way, but that would require a very intricate interaction, I am not holding my breath on that possibility. No patents here - I want this out in the public domain (as "prior art" - which this long thread clearly establishes) so that it stays innexpensive and is more widely available... even if I have to take a pass on buckets of money. In the spirit of full disclosure, if people click on the amazon.com or vitacost links on the med-owl site, I get a small percent of their purchase as a referral fee. Since starting that affiliate marketing thing, I have made enough to pay half of the website hosting fees for this month (and the month is only half over!). So the universe is coming into balance. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 17th, 2005, 12:57pm on 03/17/05 at 08:38:57, nani wrote:
First, thanks Jesse and Floridian... Yes it is getting very interesting. I had (and still do) have hopes that these two treatments could become companion treatments and help those people that both treatments fall a little short of complete/quick success. Finding out kudzu's effects on the dopamine receptors will provide additional helpful information in this regard. Nani, My guess is that this blockage would stop all "clusterbusting" effects of psilocybin. Both by ways of available scientific information we have and by means of my own experience. There is a distinct reaction that occurs for some of us where it "feels" as if more is being done than just the hallucinogenic effects during a treatment. Besides the normal hallucinogenic effects some of us encounter, there are certain signs we feel are evidence that the cluster mechanism itself is being changed. A feeling where all pressure and pain seems to actually drain away. Although not in cycle, the kudzu actually produced a low level headache that was concentrated along the trigeminal nerve. The psilocybin never touched this pain. Although it is true that for many people, taking enough psilocybin to produce a noticeable "trip" is not needed to be effective in breaking a cycle, the fact remains that although you may not experience any hallucinogenic effects, the same mechanisms are still taking place. The same receptor activity is taking place, just not to an extent that you notice it. An analogy would be the old tree in the forest question. If no one hears it fall...did it fall? Of course it fell, you just didn't hear it fall. It appears, that kudzu blocks all the 5HT activity (at least in the subset(s) that are involved in clusters) of the psilocybin although its too early to tell for sure and 1 test does not make for any absolutes. So, to answer your question..LOL...it appears that it WILL block the therapeutic effects of the psilocybin, even for those people that only need very low doses of psilocybin. Whether it (kudzu) would halt these effects if taken after psilocybin is injested, as Jesse wondered, is a good question and an important one that needs to be answered at some point. My guess is that it would not. My hope is that it would not. If it doesn't, kudzu just might be something people can begin taking after only one psilocybin treatment to help bring about a faster end to the cycle. It may even "lock-in" the changes made by that one treatment. The problem is, it would need to be tested and by people IN a cycle. If it stops the therapeutic effects, it would slow down the process and the person would again have to detox, this time from kudzu, to get back to the psilocybin effectiveness. Even that wouldn't give us all the answers or anything definative. It could be that that person just wasn't going to be helped by psilocybin and the kudzu wasn't responsible. OTOH, some people only need one psilocybin treatment. Would the person switching to kudzu after one treatment have broken the cycle without the kudzu? Still a long way to go. Lots of questions and the answers will take time. In the mean time, people are being helped. The answers will help refine treatments and help more people. Bobw |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 18th, 2005, 12:23am on 03/15/05 at 11:48:58, nani wrote:
Tuff darts. You're part of the test crowd. on 03/17/05 at 12:57:08, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Beta testing is hard work. Praise them with great praise. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 18th, 2005, 12:28am on 03/18/05 at 00:23:31, Mr. Happy wrote:
[smiley=tongue2.gif] ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 18th, 2005, 1:00am on 03/18/05 at 00:23:31, Mr. Happy wrote:
I was part of that Beta crowd about 25 years ago. Bought a top'a'da'line (that's Italian for expensive) Beta Camera that took two people to carry...and a Beta Player/Recorder system. Now have a camera, player and about 150 Beta tapes of great events and of my family that I can't watch because I can't get my player repaired. D a m n VHS. Who woulda thunk it. Next thing ya know they'll be replacing VHS with discs or something. ;-( Bobw |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 18th, 2005, 7:08am Quote:
In case ya ever wonder if it's worth while to pay someone to transfer your tapes to disc, I've been doing mine myself. Play the tape and capture it on the computer. Edit. Transcode it to DVD. Burn it. A 2 hour VHS tape takes about 10-12 hours to move to DVD! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by catlind on Mar 18th, 2005, 8:02am on 03/18/05 at 07:08:57, Bob P wrote:
Egads, this funky little machine I have that's called a DVR/VHS recorder does it in the time it takes to play the movie, I pop in the vhs on the vhs side and blank disc on the DVD side and in 1.5-2.5 hours I have a DVD ;) Going to do the VHS tapes from the NY convention with Dr. Bigal and Lori Choyce speaking if I can ever find the cassette thingy for the video recorder. So far the kudzu has made no change at all with my head, I can't claim success or failure though because I haven't taken it regularly enough to really give any useful data. Wish it would have worked for the hot flashes though. Cat |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 18th, 2005, 8:23am Day 6 report - Ok - things seem to be improving. Good day yesterday - nothing at all during the day. Got my usual 8:30 pm hit, mild and short, with another hit around 10:30. Went to bed at 11:00. Woke up about 2:00 am with a runny right nostril and watery right eye, but no HA. Interesting??? Nose is still a bit drippy, but I sure can sure live with that. Actually got a pretty good night's sleep. Let's see what today (day 7) brings. :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 18th, 2005, 8:41am on 03/18/05 at 08:02:47, catlind wrote:
Hot flashes and some of the heat/pain of clusters are linked to the same neurotransmitter, CGRP. It can be reduced by keishi-bukuryo-gan, a japanese herb combo that includes cinnamon, peony, tree peony, poria mushroom and peach seed. Quote:
Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by catlind on Mar 18th, 2005, 9:20am on 03/18/05 at 08:41:57, floridian wrote:
Ok, help me understand this a bit...they did a fully hysterectomy (including ovaries) to 'fix' my headaches. Is the attenuation of the CGRP then good or bad? I'd hate to think after all this time they might actually have been on to something without knowing it... I don't quite understand the whole CGRP relationship, but from everything I've read so far it certainly has some promise for treating headaches. There's more alphabet soup in this stuff than in Campbells. Cat |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 18th, 2005, 10:14am on 03/17/05 at 12:57:08, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Bob, That is exactly my theory as I mentioned in my previous post. There are some cases where the psilocybin treatment for chronics works only for a while, then a further dose is needed. In some cases, a chronics have obtained excellent results with minimal psilocybin doses every day for a week with PF time afterwards When the CH countering effects of psilocybin start wearing off, I would be inclined to think, since the 5-HT receptors are , uhm, receptive, Kudzu may be more effective in prolonging the PF time. I also have the feeling that kudzu may have some residual additive effects or like floridian especulates, down-regulating effects. Thst would indeed be fantastic. At some point you stop taking all forms of drugs. Supplements or pharmaceuticals, or "alternative.." As a further point. The half life of kudzu seems to be relatively short. As I reported earlier, when kudzu was taken in conjuction with Imitrex (by my wife). Imitrex did not work. Four hours later a further dose of Imitrex, worked as it had in the past. Lots to think about. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 18th, 2005, 10:35am on 03/18/05 at 09:20:17, catlind wrote:
In the lab experiment, they ovarectimized the mice or rats because that makes hot flashes worse - without estrogen, the CGRP gets out of whack (as it does in menopause). Giving the lab animals either estrogen or the herb formula restored the CGRP levels. Not 100% sure, but as I understand it, in hot flashes, CGRP is abnormally low most of the time, then spikes with the hot flashes... it is a regulation problem. So a CGRP inhibitor might abort a hot flash (or cluster or migraine), while something that increases CGRP might prevent those symptoms if it led to normal levels and no sudden fluctuations. After ovarectomy or menopause, things might eventually settle back into balance. Both testosterone and testosterone blocking drugs have been used to treat clusters. So it is possible that estrogenic and anti-estrogenic treatments could help with clusters if they reduce the fluctuations of CGRP and other messengers. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Mar 18th, 2005, 5:28pm OK Y'all....Its Friday and my brain is tired :P Update....I am surely in uncharted territory....Just as I thought things were getting better with 2-3 nights PAIN FREE.....I got hit the last 2 nights like before....3 X per night....sigh....Thank God for the O2.... I do know that the office has been sooooo hectic that I haven't been drinking the water I have needed to and the mid day Kudzu gets pushed back to evening and I might have even skipped it once.....aaaarrrggghs! Trying again to stay more regular with it and the water.....water,water,water.....I wonder if this is what it feels like to be chronic.......a couple of Pain free days then wham! I've been shadowy all day too..... So....I am also going through "the change"....What is that chinese herb?.....or did someone say the Kudzu should help with the hot flashes too....? Feelin' like a mess....soooooo tired....but happy to be among such a great group....Hope to meet some of y'all in Dallas this Summer.....It will be good for my husband to meet some of you too and their supporters too... Blessings, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sundancer on Mar 19th, 2005, 11:43am My CH are epi. and started 30 years ago, triggers are heat, exercise and alcohol. Usually come in July during hot and humid weather, skipped last year...and hit this yr. in Feb. Prednisone has worked for 20 years, but my dr. won't let me take it after a weird side effect during the last cluster attack. A week ago started on Neurontin, 100 mg. 3X pd., disalcid (salsalate) 750 mg. 3X pd, and O2 which I've used in the past to abort. Tues. of this week I started taking Kudzu (Solaray) 150 mg. 3X pd. Since prednisone got rid of the HA, I don't know what normal CH pattern is for me. But for the last four nights it's been like this.....Go to bed sleep for one hr. hit with HA, use O2, pain for 10-15 min. kip 3-4, then sleep 45 minutes, hit again...etc. etc. all night long. Usually before I start the pred. I'll have kip 9-10 for a hr. which wakes me. I've never experienced all night long, off and on like this. During the day, icepick pains, shadows and some ear pain. Called the dr. yesterday and she said to increase the neurontin to 300 mg. at night. I've tried various other meds. verap. which shut my liver down, and can't take trex due to a heart prob. So folks, what do you think? I saw a post from Sandy where she talks about nearly the same symptoms and someone suggested Kudzu might be changing the CH. Should I increase the Kudzu? It's getting difficult to think during the day, I'm' exhausted....but thank god having but a few short kip 8's. Any comments would be appreciated. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 19th, 2005, 12:15pm Sundancer I started on Kudzu last Saturday, 3/13. My usual pattern was to have one big K8-9 hit every evening lasting for 45 minutes to an hour, with more during the night. After starting the zu, the pattern changed to getting low k level hits during the day with shadows and picks, my usual 8:30 pm hit and still some at night. But, the 8:30 hits were low k3-4 lasting only about 15 minutes. These were followed up with more hits every 30 to 45 minutes after the last one ended, going on into the night. For the last three days, I've been playing with the dosage and timing of the zu. I was taking 1 Nature's Way 613 mg capsule every four hours all day long. I stopped taking the morning dose, took 1 at 2:00 pm, 1 at 4:00 pm, 2 at 8:00 pm (half hour before my usual hit time), and 2 more right before bed. I now have no daytime hits or shadows. I still get my 8:30 hit but it is still low k3-4 with no follow up hits. I've had one very tiny hit during the night, just enough to wake me up. Drink some ice water and go back to sleep. Things are definitely improving for me. Hang in there! I think your body has to build up some zu in it before you actually see improvement. At first, things seem to be worse, but it gets better - at least it is for me. Wishing you PFDAN Sandy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:26pm Sandy, You may want to move your evening dose of kudzu to 7:30pm to give it more time to get into your blood stream. With luck that will kill the 8:30 hit entirely. From another thread with a kudzu/trex experiment (I'm too lazy to find it) there seems to be about a four hour life for the kudzu's effectiveness so you wouldn't want to make the dose much earlier than that. It's interesting that the 'zu doesn't change the timing of the attacks. I've had plenty of medications that moved them around. Another piece of the puzzle about how it works. I hope that this helps to make you completely pain free, Paul |
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Title: My experience so far with Kudzu Post by hzzz on Mar 19th, 2005, 3:43pm I started taking Kudzu 8 days ago. I took two pills of the Nature's Way at 6am, 3pm and 9pm. No hits, but lots of shadows the first 4 days. Day 5 I had one middle of the road attack. Day 6 no attacks and then last night one monster that may be the first one ever in which I've ever been in so much pain that I've almost thrown up and/or passed out. I layed over the toilet for over 30 minutes before I went and grabbed my Imitrex. Pain lasted another 30 minutes or so, but it got back to bearable. Today, just some shadows. I think I might try taking the 2nd dosage later in the day like others have suggested and then the last dose right a bedtime. I also wonder if I shouldn't try an extra pill at bedtime instead of just two. Overall, I am still very happy with the Kudzu. Cycle started about 3 weeks ago (usually last 5-8weeks) and I was getting three hits a day, so two in 8 days is a huge improvement. I will definitly stay on the Kudzu unless something horrible happens. The only other things I am taking are 9 mg of Melatonin at bedtime and Imitrex for attacks. Not sure if I've really seen any improvement with the Melatonin. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 19th, 2005, 5:08pm Glad to hear you're getting some relief, Hzzz, though sorry to hear about the intense attack that slipped through. The one thing about CH, is that no single thing works for everyone. I tried melatonin last cycle, and all it did was make me feel like I'd been hit by a bus, the next morning. I was still having my two visits each night from the beastie, so I quit messing with it. I've been taking the kudzu with my multivitamin upon awakening, then again in late afternoon/early evening, and then taking the last dose just prior to sleep. Being faithful with this dose and schedule has kept me pain-free for about two weeks, now. (aside from some very mild hits, and the occasional feeling of pressure) Last night, I told my wife that I was feeling "clustery." She laughed and asked what that meant, and I said that it felt like I was on the verge of an attack, but the attack itself wouldn't manifest. I felt pressure in my neck, and sort of a "gathering pressure" around my head on the right side, but fortunately, it dissipated. Hang in there. I hope you don't get hit anymore. PFDAN's. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by cynthy on Mar 19th, 2005, 11:18pm Day three for me on the kudzu, And have not hit a kip 10 in 2 days !!! I also take the imitrex tabs, no way I could work without it,, at least 6 hours pf,, has anyone else tried the kudzu with imitrex ? I have not taken any imitrex today (the weekend and no work) just the kudzu and have not had a kip 10 all day !!! i have been chronic for about 7 years , and have been on too many medications, with no relief (except prednisone) Is there such a thing as taking too much kudzu? I have the solaray and have taken 8 capsules since 3:00 yesterday morning (i work graveyard) so it is not quite 24 hours. Just want to say, even though its been years since i have posted this board has been my lifeline.. Thank-you all for being here.. cindy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by cynthy on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:09am Guess i spoke to soon, woke at 2am with a kip 5-7, 02 helped and went back to sleep until 4am when the beast reared its ugly head and got hit with a 10, wasn't about to sleep after that one, I was reading thru the past posts, and maybe instead of taking the solaray 165 mgs, two tabs 3 or 4 times daily, should try the natures way at 613 mg, will let you all know, pfd to all cindy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by hzzz on Mar 20th, 2005, 7:45pm Hasn't been a good day for me. Two large hits. I am upping the Kudzu to 3 pills three times daily and seeing what happens. Imitrex doesn't seem to do its normal thing with already taking the Kudzu. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by cynthy on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:03pm This day ranks right up there with one of the worst, am so tired, tried to sleep but got hit almost everyhour or so with kip 10's,, not sure what to do now,, will try the imitrex maybe will sleep then. was too tired to go out for the natures way kudzu but still took the solaray, happy for all those that have had success with this, I will still try but right now am just too tired. cindy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:05pm on 03/20/05 at 20:03:35, cynthy wrote:
Beta Testing is hard work. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:07pm Really. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Mar 21st, 2005, 2:24am This is day 25 on the Kudzu for me. I increased the dosage to 2 capsules, 3 x's a day, on March 6th. I originally was only taking 3 a day. Excluding three or four healthy shadows, I have not had my nightly CH visits. The shadows came at the same time of night that I usually awake with a CH. I did increase the Melatonin after the 1st bad shadow, but that proved hazardous. The Melatonin seemed to increase the pain level of the shadows. I have since discontinued the Melatonin altogether. I can live with the shadows....it seems they are gone before I really wake up. I take my 1st dose about 11 a.m.....2nd dose around 6 p.m.....and the 3rd right before bed. Seems to be working very well for me.... Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 21st, 2005, 8:24am I'm never going to post good news again, like things are improving. Seems every time I do, the beast says "Oh yeah, take this" and I get nailed. Saturday was a set back day for me. My 8:30 pm hit came as usual, but reached a k9 level, lasting about an hour,with another k7 hit coming about 30 minutes after the first one ended. Heavy shadows all night long - very little sleep. l What sleep I did get was on the couch so as not to keep my husband awake. Sunday was better, although I was sooooo tired. Tried taking a nap in the afternoon, but the minute I laid my head down started feeling the pressure and icepicks so had to stay upright. Also, did a little yardwork, raking leaves and had to stop. Seems just that little exercise started the CH. At 6:30 pm, while preparing a really nice dinner, CH started. I decided "screw it", and went for the trex so that I could at least sit down and eat with my hubby. Trex worked fine. Got another k5 hit at 9:30 but was able to ease it down with one Aleve. Slept fairly well last night with some shadows and picks but no hits. I'll still keep trying the Kudzu, but when I've got something important that I've got to be able to do (like eat), I'm going to go for the trex. I'm now in my 5th week and I'm really getting p----d off at this, as well as dragging my a$$ around because I'm so tired. It's discouraging. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Major on Mar 21st, 2005, 10:55am My husband is now onto his third bottle - getting to be on first name terms with the local health food store guy! Tried to taper last week - first day some tolerable shadows, second day more shadows, third day evening hit. It wasn't as bad as those pre-zu, didn't need the 02, but definately up there in intensity. Started back on the kudzu, and next day was happily again back to PF. Life is good. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by john_d on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:09pm hey folks, Quick question- Anybody experiencing any dizziness or lightheadness related to using Kudzu? Thanks, John |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Major on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:19pm Yes - my husband had some dizziness at the beginning, and occassionally now. It wasn't too severe though. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:24pm If you're experiencing dizziness, you should check your blood pressure. Spacing the doses may help, also. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by cj on Mar 21st, 2005, 8:57pm IWent today and picked up the Kudzu at a natural food store. What should this really look like? I've seen the capsules on web sites. They sold it only in bulk and it looks like white chunks of chalk. This man told me that this is the purest form of Kudzu. I really have no idea if this is true or not. He took his first dose already this evening. In a glass of warm water. I read that you should take 750 mg a day. We can only take dose of 1tsp that should equal 1000mg a day. He took it all at once. I also got B and C complex dietary supplement. Hope this all sounds right. We have never purchased this before. Just how quick does this work if it does? hours, days? help [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 21st, 2005, 10:52pm on 03/21/05 at 20:57:15, cj wrote:
It sounds like kudzu starch, which is used in cooking. From a post earlier in this thread, kudzu starch is washed and many of the medicinal properties are washed out. A supplement is your best bet. For some it has made a difference in 24 hours, others are still experimenting and getting varied results. Good luck and keep us posted. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 22nd, 2005, 9:33am Flo, ozzy, somebody....This question came up on another thread. Any possible interactions between kudzu and prednisone? I know nothing about the 'roids, since I never have (or never will) use them. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 22nd, 2005, 11:33am Update: Going on two weeks pain-free, now. Using nothing but Planetary Formulas kudzu and a multivitamin. Who's a happy boy? ME!! ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:20pm Judging from the past weeks cranial activity, looks like I'm going to be able to give the zu a real life trial under fire! Luckily I ordered a couple of bottles last week so they should be here any day. Is the routine to take the max dose on the bottle but spread it out over the day? Incidently, tried the other alternative therapy on Sunday but it hasn't slowed the upward ramping. I'll keep the research committee posted on my beta. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:40pm :( Sorry to hear that Bob. Keeping my fingers crossed that it works right away!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by jokrs2 on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:17pm Way to go Frank ;;D I am taking the same thing and am on my 8th straight day myself. WOW!! [smiley=laugh.gif] Another happy boy........ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:18pm Bob, first of all, sorry to hear that you're getting hit. The thing that has worked for me is to be very disciplined about when I take my doses. Planetary Formulas, 750mg capsules, 2 capsules/dose, three times a day. First dose: As soon as I wake up in the morning, with one of my two-a-day multi-vitamins. Second dose: When I get home in the evening. (Usually around 5-6 p.m., in conjunction with the second half of my multi-vitamin) Final dose: Just before going to bed at night, around 11 p.m. I hope this works for you, pal. Hang tough. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:33pm Quote:
Thanks Frank and Nani. Been at it, on and off, for 34 years and it ain't killed me yet. Whether I take them or not, I'm gonna bleed my insurance for every medication I can get and then go into the mail order business! I figure I'll sell them to the Canukians below their own prices and really mess with thier heads. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Flash on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:44pm on 03/22/05 at 12:20:59, Bob P wrote:
And this is uh... Tuesday. So I guess that'll be that then! *shrug* BobP - how about you just focus on one of these treatments and do it properly. That way we might at least gather some useable data. A sensible approach would be to pick only one of the following options then stick with it: A) Go with this Kudzu thing and follow the guidelines that these pioneers have established that appear to bring the best results. But don't go mixing it with shrooms because they are only likely to fuck each other up. OR B) Do this level 2 shroom thing once every 7 days with nothing other than O2 in between times. OR C) Do the shroom sip thing method which is similar to the Kudzu in that it involves dosing 2-3x per day (but with a very small dose typciallt 0.5g). OR D) 'The Magic Bullet'. Yes there is one and it really does cure CH permanently. Just take a real gun, put it either in your mouth, or under your chin and pull the trigger. But please just pick one and stick with it. PS It HAS to be loaded with a live round. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:54pm Quote:
O crap! You mean I did it wrong, again! Flasher - So far I have had zero, nada, no medications of any kind. I grabbed a small dose out of the freezer and just chewed it up and swallowed. This was Sunday. A slightly larger fungi popsicle will meet it's demise tonight. I have determined, after exstensive testing, that this is the correct way to do it because it fails to work better this way than the other ways I've tried! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:36pm on 03/22/05 at 13:44:06, Flash wrote:
Man, that's not even remotely funny. What is the matter with you? >:( [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by guesst on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:51pm on 03/22/05 at 13:44:06, Flash wrote:
Damn, that is a little overboard. As much as Bob P has pissed me off over the years, I would still NEVER EVER suggest that to some one with ch, you know damn well how tempting it can be, that was just a bit too strong of a comment. Talk like that does not help any of us. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:53pm Quote:
No problem Frank. Flash and I have a love / hate relationship; I love making him look like an idiot and he hates me for it. ;;D Quote:
Looks like my work here is done! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:53pm on 03/22/05 at 14:36:21, Frank_W wrote:
Scotch sense of dramatic irony.....? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:12pm on 03/22/05 at 13:44:06, Flash wrote:
So, if he tries it again tonight and it fails him yet one more time - will it still be unusable data? Just so I get this straight.....only the success stories are considered usable data? Hmm...interesting math. Yeah, yeah, I know 'but Margi, he's doing it wrong. Shut UP Margi.' Alrighty then. :-X In other words, absolutely no need to respond, I already can predict your canned response. oh and by the way - your "cure", Flash. Tiny bit over the edge, Craig. Dirty pool. |
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Title: Prednisone and Kudzu Post by floridian on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:54pm I don't know of any interactions with kudzu and corticosteroids. There are some interactions between soy isoflavones and corticosteroid production - soy isoflavones in high dose may increase prednisone as it blocks the enzyme that breaks down prednisone and cortisone. I would think that if you are taking steroids, you would not need kudzu and might want to avoid it due to possible interactions. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Flash on Mar 23rd, 2005, 4:43am on 03/22/05 at 14:36:21, Frank_W wrote:
Only having 10 weeks pain in 12 years (instead of 24 months pain) has resulted in a total loss of emphathy. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Flash on Mar 23rd, 2005, 5:08am on 03/22/05 at 13:54:22, Bob P wrote:
Several dozen people have been down this path and pretty much tried and tested every permutation of dose and dosing interval, so it might be worth taking our input on board. There are proven 2 techniques and it's likely that either one OR the other will work: A) Take 1.5g dried cubensis ONCE every 7 days until the episode terminates. Most people require 2-3 doses... incurring 2 weeks of unmedicated pain. Some people (like me get) relief after a single dose. OR B) Take between 0.25 and 0.5g dried cubensis first thing in the morning, and last thing at night. Some people also take an in-between dose during the day. Do this for 1-2 weeks (depending on how well things go), then take 1 week off and see how that goes. With both methods the time off is as impotant as the dosing. Things take a while to settle down - nobody knows why. Hammering the condition with large doses spaced closely together is not recommended and tends to be counter productive. In your case I'd recommend method B), one reason being that you don't really like tripping, and also because it tends to incurr less attacks than the wider spaced larger doses do. The good news is that once someone has got their optimum dosing regime figured out it seems to work for them on an on-going basis. Keep a diary of your daily kip score totals to get some idea where you're at. That's my advice. But if you're going to be a test pilot, whether with shrooms or kudzu, then give it a good proper go... then when they both fail we'll denounce you as a lying sack of shit and let that be the end of it. <--- *joke* BTW. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Flash on Mar 23rd, 2005, 5:12am on 03/22/05 at 14:53:47, seasonalboomer wrote:
:) well spotted! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 23rd, 2005, 7:49am on 03/22/05 at 13:54:22, Bob P wrote:
Bob -- I'm very interested in knowing the age of that particular batch and what potency it retained relative to its potency at the time it was stored. I'm presuming you dehydrated it completely before placing it in the freezer? Did you weigh it out before consuming? What description would you say best suits the effects this time -- i.e. Level 1 dose, Level 2, etc. Just a suggestion -- it might be better to start a new thread to detail the results (or lack thereof) of this test rather than continue in this particular thread. A couple more questions if you don't mind -- 1) If I recall correctly, you were one for whom a session of vigorous exercise tends to stop an attack fairly rapidly. Is this still the case? 2) If I recall correctly, you are also one for whom cafergot has always worked. Will you be able to obtain a supply of that should both the mushrooms and kudzu prove unsatisfactory? I've heard it is becoming increasingly difficult to get ahold of in many parts of the US. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Flash on Mar 23rd, 2005, 9:19am Pinky is your email address still the same? I sent you an email a couple of weeks back. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2005, 9:45am I received my 2 jars of zu yesterday in the mail. So: fungi zu O2 & vasso-constrictors in that order. Let the games begin! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:47pm Very best wishes, Bob. Sorry to hear that you're getting slammed. Hopefully, the kudzu will help... Hang in there, pal. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:56pm Frank, No slams yet. Maybe some less than gentle nudges. Who knows. Maybe they won't get any worse than this. Normally I'd be getting 3 K10s a day by now. Maybe an upside to getting old and gnarley. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 23rd, 2005, 1:14pm I hear ya'. In the eight/nine years that I've had CH, this is the first mild cycle I've had. In past years, I would awaken one night with a real whopper, and then for the next 6-8 weeks, everyday, getting hit hard, 4-5 times each day/night. This year, for whatever reason, I've had several mini-hits, and nothing above a single Kip-7. Not that I'm complaining! LOL! :-X |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeeS on Mar 23rd, 2005, 1:18pm on 03/23/05 at 12:56:47, Bob P wrote:
Or maybe them frozen fungi? ;;D Sorry, couldn't resist :-X -Lee |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2005, 2:30pm Hey, could be Lee. Note that so far I dosed Sun and Tues and the Mon and Wed morning hits were mild. So you kudzu crew. I got the SolRay which has like 165mg zu and 150mg zu extract. Label says 2 tabs a day. Is that what you been using? Do you go any higher than that and if so, how long do you try the recommended dose before upping? Just want to be ready in case Plan A should not work well. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sundancer on Mar 23rd, 2005, 2:58pm I know you didn't ask me however just putting in my two cents worth.. starting taking zu 8 days ago the Solaray brand, started out taking two a day, then three a day, now I'm taking one in the morning before I eat, one before dinner and two 30 minutes before bed. The first five nights when taking zu I was ready to throw in the towel. The last three nights since taking two zu's before bed and adding melatonin I've been PF at night, had a few shadows during the day but I'm not complaining. I'm afraid to cheer too loudly, don't want to wake up the angry beast but, something seems to be working. Best of luck to you. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sundancer on Mar 23rd, 2005, 3:14pm Forgot to mention....added 1 magnesium tab three times a day also. I have a feeling it's not one thing that has brought about the PF nights but the cocktail itself. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 23rd, 2005, 3:49pm I'm so glad you're finally getting some relief, sundancer. :) I added magnesium at the same time as kudzu also. Hope you have continued success! Bob...I am taking 4, 750mg tabs a day. 2 in the morning (days are worst for me) one in the afternoon and one at bedtime. According to the bottle I can take up to 2 more tabs a day. It seems like you can take over 2500 mgs a day. Most folks have had the most success by taking their biggest dose before their worst "hit" time. Sort of like the lithium "pulsing" method. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by jokrs2 on Mar 23rd, 2005, 6:20pm ALL RIGHT Sundancer!! ;;D Oh, what a relief it is..... Bob. I am taking the same product as Nani, only I am taking 2 750mg pills 3x daily for a total of 4500mg/day with out any side effects and it is keeping me k3 or below with mostly just shadow. 9 days without a severe hit and I am a chronic. BTW anyone know where I can get (legal shroom spores to create mycelium)? Joe Always wanted to be a farmer ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 23rd, 2005, 6:32pm Reminder If you've been 'zuing for more than a week please fill out the first week survey. Thank you for your cooperation. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 24th, 2005, 11:59am Another discovery: Yesterday, half-bleary-eyed and in a hurry to get out the door and get to work, I forgot to take my morning dose of kudzu. I took the evening dose and the dose just prior to bedtime. At midnight, I got hit. It didn't last more than about 20 minutes, and didn't get above a Kip-6, but after nearly two weeks 100% pain-free, it was a rude shock. This further supports my theory that with kudzu, being disciplined with timing and dosages is essential to success. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 24th, 2005, 12:03pm on 03/23/05 at 14:30:55, Bob P wrote:
Bob - I am on the Solaray. I like it. I take 3 a day, one in the morning, one at about noon, and one before bed. This seems to be working well for me. I started with 2 a day, but increased as I dropped the Verapimil, and hits slightly increased. I feel that the hits are now managable. I also take a multivitamin in the morning, and a b-complex at night. What I mean I guess is that I notice daily CH hits, with definite CH characteristics, but they are very mild, and don't last terribly long. These are different from shadows, which have decreased as this somewhat regular pattern of muted hits has taken shape. I know that I am not in remission. But, I also know that things are many times better than before the kudzu. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 24th, 2005, 12:10pm Funny....it seems kudzu helps stop episodes, but only makes life a lot easier for chronics. I'm not in remission, either...but still about 98% PF. Still calling myself a chronic (albeit a very happy one), nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on Mar 24th, 2005, 2:54pm ok all, Here is my question. I have always been one to get hot as hell and bad sweats with my CH. The hotter I get the harder I will get hit. Since being on the kudzu, I seem to be getting the sweats more oftern. The massive hit / pain that usually accompanes it, does not always come, but I did not know if anyone else notices this. Is this just my bodies reathion tot he added starch, any ideas? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 24th, 2005, 2:59pm I get "phantom" hits, Tia. My body will have all the autonomic responses that I would have with a hit, with very little or no pain. I wonder if it's the same kind of thing? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sundancer on Mar 24th, 2005, 3:27pm After 9 days on zu, I too get phantom hits which I immediately think oh dear here it comes...but the HA doesn't materialize. Don't get any of the other symptoms you describe, sweating hot, however getting hot, or sweating a lot will trigger my HAs. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 24th, 2005, 3:57pm This cycle, I haven't had any symptom, other than pain. I haven't had the hanging eyelid, "melting" face, the sweats, or anything like that. I don't know how much is attributable to the kudzu and how much is because this has been a comparatively mild cycle... I also wonder if the kudzu would be as effective as it is, if I were having the full-on rock'n'roll cycle that I usually get. In any case, the kudzu is working and I'm a happy camper. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on Mar 24th, 2005, 4:10pm on 03/24/05 at 15:57:07, Frank_W wrote:
The kudzu is giving me some relief. I keep trying to figure out my dosage and tiems that will work the best. I am so happy for you Frank. And everyone else that is finding relief. PFDaN, Blessed Be -Tia |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Groove on Mar 25th, 2005, 12:10pm I started taking the zu yesterday. At this point I haven't felt any benefits (obviously), but I can already say that one of the GREAT benefits will be an end to my fighting with the damn pharmacist over how much trex I'm taking (assuming the zu actually DOES work). To be continued in the survey.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Mar 25th, 2005, 12:19pm That's one of the joys of clusters Groove. I didn't want to hassle the insurance over the triptans so I asked my doc for cafergot. He wrote a script for 50 tabs, 2 refills and then the "not more than 10/week" statement on the dosing. Well my insurance only covers 1 months supply per prescription so they cut it back to 40 tabs Then the O2 dude comes by and wants to leave me 2 little E tanks for a whole week. I made him up it to 4 tanks. Then he pulls out 2 nose canulas. Told him to keep them since I had a couple of non-rebreather masks from last time. It souldn't be so hard to get the right stuff! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 25th, 2005, 12:51pm Think positive, Groove!! I'm hoping you have swift and positive results! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Mar 25th, 2005, 1:36pm As I have said it before, and Frank recently mentioned as well, the importance of timing and consistency with the Kudzu can not be over emphasized. I forgot to take my dose at noon, and had heavy shodows all afternoon. The shadows soon resolved when I took a my dose. This also leads me to another point. This is not a "cure" it at most keeps the beast at bay (for chronics at least). I will be intersted to see what happens with episodics after they taper off (I suggest tapering off and even suffering through afew hits to truly see if it ended the episode) Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 26th, 2005, 5:43pm on 03/25/05 at 13:36:33, ozzy wrote:
Yup. I have really good days and not too good days. Still much better than before. :) The other day was kind of bad and my husband mentioned that I was looking like "the old days, before kudzu." Observation: I'm not a big drinker, but like to drink when I go out. My husband and I were out last night and I had absolutely no desire to have a drink. It just didn't sound good. I take the Planetary Formula Kudzu Recovery, which is a blend formulated for alcohol recovery. Hmmm... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 27th, 2005, 8:21pm I agree with the "keeping the beast aat bay" assessment. My cycle is not broken, but I am finding considerable relief. i would say that Kudzu is a great prevent, better than any other I have tried. I still get hit, but mostly lightly and for shoet periods. Like Frank, I am realizing that timing is everything. If I forget to take a dose, I get hit or get shadows. As for alcohol, I have been drinking a little bit more, 2 pints on St. Patty's day, a couple since. But, now I usually don't feel too terrible of side effects from it. When I feel the shadows, or get a few light hits, I definately stay away from the beer and wine as I don't want to tempt fate. Love the zu, Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 28th, 2005, 8:42am Week 7... I forgot my evening dose last night and got hit at 10:30 PM. This is the first hit with pain in almost 2 months. Only lasted about 20 minutes but went up to a 7. :( I have no O2...ice didn't help, either. I wont be forgetting again.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Mar 28th, 2005, 8:44am You've got that right about the drinking! I had a couple of light beers on Saturday, with no major hits, just some small shadows. So, on Sunday, thought it would be OK to have a couple more - WRONG! Sunday night was a real killer. Felt almost like I was back to square one. But, I will fight on! (alas, without a beer) [smiley=beer.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 28th, 2005, 9:04am on 03/28/05 at 08:42:37, nani wrote:
Yeah.... Nothing like a Kip-7 to drive home a grim reminder of what we're doing and why. Sorry you got slammed, Nani. [smiley=hug.gif] I'm going to continue taking the kudzu for another week or so, and then begin coming off of it to see where I stand, as far as this cycle is concerned. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 28th, 2005, 9:54am also sorry to hear about the hit. good luck frank, coming off. I believe that if your cycle is up, it is up and that the kudzu will not extend it. At least that was my experience. breathe deep and think good thoughts. scott |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on Mar 28th, 2005, 11:43am on 03/28/05 at 08:42:37, nani wrote:
Yep I learned that lesson myself. Dont forget to take it. I now have a second bottle at work and one at home so that I dont have to worry if I forget to throw it in my purse. Sorry hun. I have noticed that the bigger hits I am getting the trex is not helping as much. Doubt it has anything to do with the kuzdu through. I always have this problem when my HA ramp up. Nothing helps them until they lesson on thier own. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 28th, 2005, 1:15pm Tia, the trex might be ineffective with the kudzu. Ozzy's wife had that effect when she tried it for migraines (a few pages back). She found the trex worked if it was at least 4 hours after kudzu. Probably why it makes 'shrooms ineffective. (Pinky posted about it here somewhere.) It affects the same receptors in the brain. Thanks for the wishes, everyone. :) hugs, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on Mar 28th, 2005, 2:13pm I really dont want to think about choseing between the two. I dont go for 4 hours between doses of kudzu because I dont take 2 tabs at the same time. I'm gonna keep trying for now. I cant do without trex atm. So if I had to chose right now I would drop the kudzu, but on the other hand the kudzu is helping some of the lighter Ch.... Damn why cant it be easy. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Mar 28th, 2005, 8:47pm AAAAAWWWW....I sure understand, Nani.....I have forgotten or gotten too busy and messed up on my kudzu doses and bam!!!!!.....But it seems that I get hit after a couple of pain free nights....then a couple of hits a night....then pain free again for a couple to 3 nights....but I sure don't like missing my doses of Kudzu....OR magnesium....OR meletonin.....the perfect balance right now it seems..... I ran out of the Zu this weekend with only one pill this am.....boy did I sun at lunch to the health food store to get another bottle....guess we aught to start growing it....ya think???? Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Mar 28th, 2005, 8:51pm Grow some? Oh gawd... Not five minutes down the road from my house, there's a whole forest that's been overtaken by this stuff! It hangs down from the tops of the trees and covers EVERYTHING! Didja' ever see, "Invasion Of The Body Snatchers"? That's what this stuff reminds me of... *shudder* [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 30th, 2005, 10:06pm Reminder If you've been 'zuing for more than a week please fill out the first week survey. Thank you for your cooperation. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 30th, 2005, 11:14pm Hasn't this thread died yet...man Oh, wait, wrong forum. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by BlueMeanie on Mar 30th, 2005, 11:34pm on 03/30/05 at 23:14:00, clarence wrote:
You'd think it was the CURE or something. ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Mar 31st, 2005, 12:06am Well took the information to the Dr. she was very open and said it was worth the try. So I am off the Verap. and tonight started the Kudzu. Then kind I have said to take 60mg!!! I am also trying the theory about Indocine and CPH. Got an increase in my Liters of O2. My Dr. was loving the wealth of info. I was able to provide. It was great. Well I will keep you posted. Having a ruff night of it tonight but it is only the first dose. But got a trigger tonight it was cheep hair spray used at the nursing home it about knocked me over. PF wishes to all. Kim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by BlueMeanie on Mar 31st, 2005, 12:26am Good luck Kim. I hope it works for ya. That hair spray can do wonders for CH's. I HATE aromas. PFDAN |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 31st, 2005, 12:46am Crossing my fingers for you, Kim... :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 31st, 2005, 8:26am on 03/31/05 at 00:06:42, Kim Y. wrote:
Kim, I just noticed this. Most of us are taking more than 3000 mgs a day. Start with a low dose and increase as needed. I don't think 60mgs will do much. Then again...it might for you. Keep us posted. This is all still being tested. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Mar 31st, 2005, 10:34am The bottle does say take 60mg three times a day so its 180mg to start with. Last night I just read the bottle wrong just took one dose. Today with the official start. Thanks |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Mar 31st, 2005, 11:00pm Kim, Out of curiosity, what kind is it? Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Mar 31st, 2005, 11:23pm Casey, It is Kudzu Recovery. Is this a good one? [smiley=huh.gif] Just started last night so still have a whole bottle to go. :-[ Kim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Mar 31st, 2005, 11:27pm on 03/31/05 at 23:23:17, Kim Y. wrote:
Planetary Formulas Kudzu Recovery? That's the one I take, but it's 750 mgs and says to take 2 tablets 3 times a day. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 31st, 2005, 11:55pm I still vehemently object to the fact that all participants are NOT taking the same brand at the same recommended dose. For the record. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 1st, 2005, 1:23am Ok it is 750mg the brain isn't working so well. especially not tonight. Can't even type. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 1st, 2005, 8:34am Kim, Planetary Formulas recommended dosage is: TWO tablets, (750mg ea.) three times a day, putting you at 2250mg/day. Good luck, and I hope you get some relief. I've been 100% pain-free for over two weeks, so I took my last dose yesterday morning, and now I'm playing the waiting game with the beastie. If he shows up, back on the kudzu I go. If he doesn't, this will be the shortest cycle ever, for me. *crossing my fingers* |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Apr 3rd, 2005, 1:28am Other than a couple light shadows, the Kudzu is working for me. Been on it since Feb 24th. Nature's Way 613mg. I haven't missed a dose.....but I did have a light shadow when I didn't take it at the same time as usual. All in all....has been great for me. Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 3rd, 2005, 11:42am That's great news, Jean!! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 5th, 2005, 8:13am Update: I've been OFF of the kudzu for five days now, and I'm still pain-free. In the eight years that I've had CH, this has been the mildest, shortest, most pain-free, and tolerable cycle, EVER. I'm tentatively hopeful that I am out of cycle, now. I want to thank Floridian and Nani once again. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Thank you. Thank you! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 5th, 2005, 8:34am That's great news, Frank!! I'm so happy for you. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Apr 5th, 2005, 11:01am Hey Jeepster.... Glad you're doing good, sweetie j |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 5th, 2005, 11:25am Thank you, Jean!! :-* You too!! Thanks, Nani. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 6th, 2005, 1:57pm Well last night was awful not really sure what my next step would be. This was about the usual a kip 8-10 anywhere from 4 days to one week. Last night was a Kip 6-7. The rest during the time prior to were 4-5 shadows a day with a range of Kip 2-4. Been on Kudzu a week. Plantary formula 750 mg tab two, three times a day. What is the next step? I don't know where to go from here. Any advise sure could use it. Thanks, Kim PF wishes to all others |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 6th, 2005, 2:00pm :( Sorry, Kim. It has taken some people longer than others to get relief. Did you get your oxygen issues dealt with? I really don't know what to say. You could choose to stop now, or try a while longer. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. PF wishes, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 6th, 2005, 2:07pm I am hopeless... I will cont. to try for a little longer it can't hurt. The O2 issue well got a place that will supply everything but now my insurance wants a good reason given for me to have the O2. So my Dr. is helping fight this issue and I am just waiting. I still appreciate all you have done Nani and Floridian. At least a majority continue to get relief and thats all that counts. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 6th, 2005, 2:11pm NEVER, ever be hopeless, sweetie. There's always hope. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 6th, 2005, 2:16pm :( I am trying to stay positive just a minor set back that is all. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on Apr 6th, 2005, 11:15pm Prayers for you Kim. And way to go Frank. I am really happy for you. Nothing new to report here really. Kudzu still working as a good prevent, though my breakthrough hits have increased a little in frequency, but a lot in intensity. Maybe I will up my dose. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by LeLimey on Apr 7th, 2005, 3:56am As an update from me, I am stil getting hit but not nearly as often or as hard. I am really pleased with its efficacy for me.. whilst I haven't had the out and out success some people have had reducing the hits and the severity of them has a HUGE impact on my morale and its finally given me some hope again that I can beat this thing... it was wearing VERY thin (now in week 30 of my cycle) Thank you again Flo and Nani... I don't think I'll ever get tired of saying that! You really have put a smile back on my face.. see?! ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by sundancer on Apr 7th, 2005, 4:00pm Taking kudzu and neurontin, been PF for 20 days. It was after 9 days on neurontin and 5 on kudzu the the HA stopped. Has anyone tapered off of kudzu before they think their cycle might be over? I am usually hit for 8 weeks and didn't know whether I needed to continue thru the expected length of the cycle or not. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 7th, 2005, 4:28pm Howdy, Sundancer. I went off the kudzu a couple of times, just to ascertain where I was in the cycle. I did it after being on the kudzu for about two weeks, to see if it acted similar to prednisone. Um... That was a mistake. LOL I missed a dose on a couple of occasions, and paid for it with a cluster headache. Mild, but they were still hits. After being 100% pain-free for two weeks, with no "twinges," or near-hits, I abruptly quit taking the kudzu and had no adverse reaction at all. Good luck and PFDAN's. -Frank |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 7th, 2005, 4:28pm I came off it abruptly and was successful. My cycle should have lasted longer but it was shortened by the kudzu. I then decided to come off kudzu after I was painfree for a few days with no shadows lingering. If you still feel like the beast is sleeping lightly you may want to take your time. I think Frank can speak to his experience as well -- he's posted his process on this thrad further back. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 8th, 2005, 12:33pm Week 9: I am happy to report that I have had 2, yes 2, completely PF days. No "phantom" hits or shadows either. :D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 8th, 2005, 1:21pm Wonderful, Nani!! May it continue indefinitely!! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 8th, 2005, 3:41pm [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=thumb.gif] [smiley=thumb.gif] Congratulations Nani that is wonderful news. I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Congrats for you as well Frank. I am so glad that you both have had such great success. You really do deserve it. ;;D Kim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 8th, 2005, 4:04pm Thank you, Kim. Coming out of cycle makes me feel like Lazarus, or something... I hope you gain some relief soon, as well. Hang in there! [smiley=hug.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 8th, 2005, 6:20pm Thanks Frank and Kim. I know what you mean about feeling like Lazarus, Frank....it's been a looong time for me. Kim...I'm still keeping everything crossed that it works as well for you! hugs, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 8th, 2005, 6:51pm Thanks Nani and Frank I'll keep plugging away as I always do. :-/ Kim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by toolong on Apr 9th, 2005, 8:20am Been doing the zu now for 3 days short of a month.Hits are down 80% with a few shadows hanging around late in the day.02 usage is down also.I was taking 02 every night,now only 2-3 times a week.I am the worlds #1 skeptic and never thought that the Kudzu would really work,but it seems to be for me.Haven't tried withdrawing from the other preventives Dr. has prescribed,but that will be next.Thanks you CH.com and all those who contributed.PF days and nights to all. :)David |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 9th, 2005, 9:49am David [smiley=thumb.gif] [smiley=thumb.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] This is wonderful news I will keep my fingers crossed that you will be 100% PF very soon. Kim ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 9th, 2005, 10:57am Outstanding, David!! I hope that 80% goes to 100% very soon. Keep us posted on your progress, as you come off of the prescription medications, if that's what you choose to do. Very best wishes and PFDAN's, -Frank |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Apr 9th, 2005, 2:05pm Well......my report is a mixed bag.......Been on the Zu now about 2 months I guess......I take it 3 X per day....sometimes I miss the noon dose but usually get it down later in the day when I remember like about 4 to 6PM....then right before bedtime.....I also take magnesium and some melatonin......This is one week shy of 7 months long for me......BUT.....The hits have seemed to drop off.....some....I get 3 or 4 pain free nights and days....YIPPEE!!!!!! but then WHAP!!!!!!!! Like last night I got awakened 4 times to pretty hard hits....THABK GOD....again and again for the O2....My husband had to go get the new tank out of the car in the middle of the night.....He is sooooooo great.....It just doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason.....again....Oh well....I am happy for the nights I get to sleep.... Love y'all, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 10th, 2005, 1:19am :'(I am trying............. ::)Oh forget it just feeling sorry for myself tonight.. Don't even now what I am doing right now. Keeping the mind busy I guess just had to take an Imitrex an now feel all doppy. Ok now I am rambling sorry. Bye |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 10th, 2005, 10:43am :-/Sorry for that post. :-[ Going to do an experiment with the Kudzu today. I am not going to take it at all and see how bad I get hit. Then tomorrow will get back on and compare. Maybe it is helping and I just don't realize it. Who knows. Maybe this is the only relief I will get. Am a little nervous but have survived so I will again. Kim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 10th, 2005, 5:46pm Well, that's really the only way to find out what's going on, Kim. I'm glad the kudzu seems to be helping. Let us know how your experiment goes. My best to you, -Frank |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 11th, 2005, 9:47am Congrats Frank. I was very curious to see waht would happen to episodics. Now I know. I have been on Kudzu for a while 2-3 months. I have found that timing is important (Karen, that means you, don't forget to take it) I also had my first PF trip. I travel quite a bit for work and I usually get hit after I arrive at my destination or during flight. Change in cabin pressure, the dryness, lack of sleep, comfort, etc. I just got back from Alaska. From the East Coast that's quite a haul, but experienced no pain whatsoever. Melatonin is a must for these trips, keeps my body clock regulated. I drank, stayed up late, worked a lot (maybe in that order) and yet experienced PF time. But if I skip a dose, shadows creep up, and then I have to double up on the dose to go back to PF. I think in my case I won't just quit to see what happens just yet. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 11th, 2005, 10:37am Outstanding, Ozzy! Basically, it sounds like you hit every trigger you could, and still came out pain-free. That is AWESOME!!! Congratulations! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 11th, 2005, 10:41am That's great ozzy! I still shadow a little most days, but have had a few PF days, too. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 12th, 2005, 11:51am Well experiment done. Not really seeing much difference on or off of Kudzu. I have been having Kip5-6 the last few evenings off of the Kudzu but I am also dealing with weather. Have been lucky only one time needed to use Imitrex. Give it a week and then I will know more... Still waiting on the insurance company to approve O2 tank at 12-15 L. I'll probably be done with my cycle by then if it ever ends that is. Glad for all who are having success with Kudzu... PF wishes. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 12th, 2005, 12:05pm I'm sorry, Kim.... :'( Thanks for trying. [smiley=hug.gif] Pain free wishes (and I hope you get your O2 soon) nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Kim Y. on Apr 12th, 2005, 1:20pm ;)Thanks for all the advise though and who is to say that it might not help next cycle. If this one ends that is. Its ok I am a tough cookie even if I do some whining. I don't give into defeat easy. Sorry just went on a 3 mile run and feel like I am on a runners high and loving it at the moment. Kim |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Apr 12th, 2005, 8:33pm Congrats Ozzy!!!!! Don't worry....my husband now sends an instant message and e-mail every day to my work computer to remind me to take my Kudzu.....what a gem of a guy! Kim, My insurance only lets the O2 cost go towards the medical deductable which takes forever to get to....so who cares.....Just go for it....The rental on a tank is only something like $8.00 per month and refills are $12.00 per tank......The supliments are more expensive than that and at least I know the )2 is going to abort my attack....I went ahead and bought a tank and rent a second one for refills.....It's well worth it Kim..... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Apr 13th, 2005, 5:25pm Hello to all. ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D I think my cycle has ended! I'm the one who doesn't like to post good news because, like Murphy's law, every time I did, I would get nailed the next day with a killer HA. I started the zu during the first week of this cycle (began on 2/17), with very mixed results. Shorter duration, less intense, but many many more HA during the days. This was nor working. Stopped the zu and everything else for a week, which was really Godawful, to "cleanse the system", so to speak. Then went back on again in the hopes that the zu would work for me like it has for so many of you. Again, mixed results - still had shorter, less intense HA, but still had more during the day. This time, though, I stuck with it, and over time, the HA became more "scheduled" again, so that I could pretty much know when I would get hit. I also stopped having hits during the night, so was able to get some sleep, and during the day, had some small hits at work but no biggies (except for one day when my poor employer was witness to a full blown k9). I must admit, I did dip into the trex for the biggies. I don't know that kudzu really helped my cycle, but I don't think it made it any worse, once I got going on a regular routine. I also don't know that it has shortened my cycle. My first cycle was very long (almost 4 months), the second was very short (just about 3-4 weeks), and this cycle was 7 weeks as of today. The last 7 days I have had NO HA!!! ;;D ;;D ;;D To those of you that are finding relief from zu - KEEP IT UP. To those of you that aren't sure that you're finiding relief from zu - KEEP IT UP. It has helped me, not as much as some of the rest of you, but definitely helped. But for now - I'm PF!!! and I hope to stay that way! You've all been so helpful to me. I honestly don't think I could have gotten through this cycle without being able to read your posts, your successes, your failures, and your support messages. I thank you all. Don't worry, I still plan on keeping track of you guys and giving my two cents worth whether you like it or not. Love to all Sandy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Boyce on Apr 14th, 2005, 5:26am So as to avoid cross-thread posting....I'm going to copy my post from my "Newbie from Indiana" thread in the Getting to Know Ya subject header into this post here....Kudzu certainly worked for to keep the beast away.....however, did it break my cycle? results are inconclusive :-/ [quote author=Boyce link=board=knowya;num=1106581527;start=25#41 date=04/14/05 at 05:15:38]HI all..... Wondering where I went? ;;D I went to Hawaii, about a full week after my cycle ended, and tested my alcohol trigger with a week full of Luaus, beers and MaiTais [smiley=me&mb.gif] well....my cycle ended after a few weeks on Kudzu.... Now I am a victim of too much beta testing.... I have three possible reasons for my cycle ending: 1. - Kudzu....4 weeks or so of it and the cycle is gone 2. - Massage....friend of my wife's who is a massage therapist, was giving me weekly massages, concentrating on the head and neck. 3. - Time....This was a 12 week cycle for me, which is longer that usual, tho not unheard of. next cycle, I'll have to be more selective in my approach, as hard as that is to do....whatever gets rid of the beast for the moment is what I'll do....just like always... PFDAN's to all!!![/quote] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Apr 14th, 2005, 2:28pm Floridian, Quote:
I was re-reading the first posts in this thread. The original article says a 5HT-1 agonist. It doesn't really specify 1A. Any other info been found detailing which 5HT-1 subtype it affects? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 15th, 2005, 4:27pm I'm starting my 11th week on the 'zu. Have been having an "odd" headache the last 4 nights. The only way I can think to describe it is a "reverse" CH. Always on my CH side, always at 10:30 PM. It starts in my neck, by the base of my head. The moves up rapidly (through my jaw and behind my ear) to my eye. The exact opposite of a normal hit. It ramps into a k5. Lasts about 30 minutes. Last night I increased my 9PM dose to 2 tablets. I still got "hit" but it was muted. Still lasted 30 minutes. Hmmmm http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage22/16.gif So now I'm taking 5- 750 mgs a day. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 15th, 2005, 5:48pm Damn... Nani, I dearly hope it continues to work for you. [smiley=hug.gif] Hang in there. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lori on Apr 16th, 2005, 10:34pm I understand the possible dangers of mixing kudzu with verap and triptans but how about with other stuff alot of cher's take? Topomax, lithium, etc? I take lamictal and how do I know what activities or things this affects and is there possible interactions with lamictal and kudzu? I ordered kudzu but must take lamictal for my bipolar disorder. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 16th, 2005, 10:43pm Lori...we just don't know at this point. This is still so new. I can tell you that I was on lithium and Neurontin when I started kudzu. I was able to taper off the lithium after about 6 weeks. And I've cut my Neurontin from 1800mgs a day to 300. Perhaps you could print out Floridian's and ozzy's medical info on it and discuss it with your dr or pharmacist. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Apr 18th, 2005, 10:40am Just an update. I quit taking the kudzu as I could not see that it was doing anything for me. I was using Solaray brand. Started with 3 caps/day, wnet to 4/day and eventually 6/day. Nada. Felt no difference on or off it. What is making a difference for me is the 9mg melatonin before bed. Still getting hit but at 1/2 strength and duration. Everything is a 5-10 minute Kip 1 now. Easily handled with O2. Been on it for 3 days. Will probably start a thread on it after I've used it for a while longer. BTW - Marc was on Solaray @ 15/day and nothing also. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 18th, 2005, 11:18am Sorry, Bob and Marc. :( If you were on it for 7 days, will you both fill out Flo's survey? EVERYONE who has tried it for one week or more: Please fill out the survey. Thanks and PF wishes to all, nani edited to add: Bob, maybe you did it wrong? ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Apr 18th, 2005, 11:46am Quote:
Posibility. Funny thing is that the fungi treatment is thought to be effective in part because of the "indole" ring structure (I think). Melatonin is also an indole. Could be the legal alternative maybe. Smoe day I'll get this stuff right! ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Apr 18th, 2005, 12:33pm Bob, How did it go with the Elavil? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Apr 18th, 2005, 4:54pm Elavil - nada! Never went over 30mg/day which is really low. My doc just doesn't understand that us clusterheads do everything big. I'm using 9mg melatonin at night and that is making the attacks really light. Where the night attacks had me poping cafergot and sucking O2 for 20+ minutes to knock them down, with the mel the O2 stops it in 5-7 minutes. Still have the cafergot but not using it like before. So: Fungi small frequent dose = the cluster attacks continued to get stronger. Kudzu = first week attacks got lighter (of course this may be a result of the fungi the week before). Ramped up on kudzu but it the attacks got more frequent/strong. Melatonin = mellowed them out to mild attacks, 3xday. Only on day 3 of this though. Trex = gave me my worst day, 7 attacks! Never had that many before. Trex sucks! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Alien Space Babe on Apr 19th, 2005, 11:00pm Hi all, I just heard from Lizzie2. Apparently there can be some complications from kudzu use. She's been using kudzu for about a week. Last night she had extensive bleeding .... they had to do the sinus surgery again this afternoon. The docs said the inside of her nose is mush, and that kudzu is probably the culprit because it is a vasodilator. So, this post has 2 purposes: 1. be careful with kudzu if you're using aspirin or any other blood thinner 2. vibes for Lizzie2 (this is also posted on the general board) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 20th, 2005, 12:13am This is terrible. I'm already sending vibes and prayers. :( What I find pretty troubling right now is that Carrie talked to her neuro about using kudzu. He actually read up on it at Flo's site and gave it the OK. Granted, he is not her ENT doc, but I assume he was aware of the surgery. It just reaffirms my sense that not even drs know what all potential risks and side effects of kudzu (or any alternative treatment) really are. Let's be careful, informed and use lots of common sense, folks. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 20th, 2005, 1:16pm I found this drug interaction site today. It has kudzu and other herbs and supplements on it. Just add all the drugs you take and it gives you any potential interaction info. Interestingly, it did not say there were any problems with kudzu and verap. It said the usual caution with verap and alcohol and verap and grapefruit juice. http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Interaction/ChooseDrugs/1,4109,,00.html |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Sandy_C on Apr 20th, 2005, 4:45pm Nani What a great site - I've bookmarked it for future reference. Haven't had much chance to really delve into it, but it looks like it will be valuable to just about anyone who has to take medications of any sort. Gonna run a scenario with all the "stuff" my husband takes for his thises and thats. I'm truly sorry to hear about your "reverse" HA. Sending my thoughts your way - keep the faith! Sandy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 20th, 2005, 4:58pm on 04/19/05 at 23:00:42, Alien Space Babe wrote:
Mush?!! Are you kidding me, KUDZU made the inside of her nose MUSH!!!!! That is such an irresponsible statement. So....., none of her other medications could have been the culprit? or... none of the interactions of them with kudzu? Just kudzu, eh? I am a strong believer in talking things over with your Doc, before taking any meds or supplements. Particularly if you are taking other medications. Don't just start taking it. Flash made an excellent point on a different thread, "detox" before you take something new, that may interact. I hope Carrie feels better, heals soon. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 20th, 2005, 5:18pm You can read what I wrote over on the general board about it, but basically it was mush in that, they could not identify a single blood vessel that was leaking. It was oozing out of just about every blood vessel they could see, so they were cauterizing what they could. This is a month and a half out of surgery, which is less than .01% of having a bleed like I had at this point, and nothing has changed except the addition of Kudzu. I should never have taken it, and now I can't ever. I had just about every nurse, doctor, pharmacist, etc looking up info on it, and they feel the vasodilator properties can be dangerous for people with any sort of potential for a bleed. Not enough known and no warnings. The hematologist was pretty annoyed that I had taken it at all. Anyways...you can read what I wrote on the general board. It isn't just because I had surgery recently. I never would have bled if I hadn't taken that. And I've been off almost all of my other meds for awhile now. I would just be more careful...for anyone that even takes a baby aspirin a day. There are more risks than we'll ever know until this happens to more people, I guess. JMHO after spending the last 2 days in bloody hell. Carrie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 20th, 2005, 6:29pm Carrie, I hope you don't mind, but I'm copying and pasting your crisis info from the General board here. I think it's important to have all that info in this thread. Feel better soon, hun! From Lizzie2's post: Yeah big problems. The ENT nurse practitioner wants me to write an article on what I went through because of how dangerous it was. Keep in mind, my sinus surgery was March 8. My ENT attending told me that he has only had like 3 patients out of 3000 have a bleed this far out after surgery. I worked in the ER on Monday night from 3-11. I laid down after that, and at around 12:30, I felt what I thought was just sinus drainage. I got up and began having a massive hemorrhage. I went through an entire thing of tissues, 3 wash cloths, washed the sink out 4 times from all the blood everywhere. I called my best friend to come over from the ER to help me get there. I got to the ER and once taken back to a room, the bleed got even worse. Huge clots were coming out. I was choking and coughing up huge clots even. I went through an entire package (big pack!) of 4x4's and filled a bin with them saturated with blood and the clots. At one point, a nurse in the ER rolled up a gauze pad and put it in the left side of my nose. All the bleeding kept going through it and down my throat, too. The resident came in awhile after that and said he had to see, so he handed me some gauze to hold under my nose, and he pulled it out...telling me it was going to be okay the entire time as I was gagging on all the bleeding and clots. Blood was going everywhere. So an ENT resident came down. He went ahead and tried suctioning out some clots to see where the bleed was coming from. Let me tell you how that's not a fun experience. Finally he got it more or less controlled with some dissolvable packing, and I was admitted. It dripped most all day yesterday, but not bad. I was taken to the OR in the early evening. Apparently the surgery was quick. They couldn't find a single burst vessel...apparently there was oozing everywhere, so they cauterized several places. They kept me overnight last night because of the timing of the surgery, etc. I had a little more bleeding last night. I've had nurses, pharmacists, doctors, etc in on the search for info about Kudzu and bleeding. It isn't just a matter that I had surgery recently, because it was over a month and a half ago. Turns out, although it won't show up in any clotting time studies, this stuff can make you bleed like crazy. The vasodilation properties combined with someone who may be susceptible make it a pretty high bleed risk. The docs were adamant that I not take it again (which sucked because it was actually helping a little), and then they said they really hope more people will be more careful because even if you're on a baby aspirin, a bleed could be a big risk. Thank goodness it wasn't intracranial...cuz that would've been the end. I know most of you feel pretty adamant that it's safe, but just remember that herbs are drugs without FDA approval. The hematologist was angry that I had taken it. I heard him saying that he has arguments with the alt med practice about prescribing herbs for treatment because of this sort of thing. There's no warning out there that it can cause that sort of bleeding problem. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 21st, 2005, 11:46am So. I'm going to re-state what I said. Don't take any meicine, herbal, FDA approved, over, under the counter, etc without consulting with your doctor(s) as the case may be. If you have many medications that you're on, it's probably not wise to "experiment" with herbal medication(s) Listen to your body. There are exceptions to every rule. The fact that it works for so many of us, doesn't mean it will work for all. Everyone that hasn't tried Kudzu yet, and is considering it, read everything. Make an informed decision. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 21st, 2005, 12:29pm And just to reiterate... I'm one of the few who actually DID consult with my doctor before starting Kudzu. He read all about it in my neuro appt before saying that he thought it was okay to try. Bad things happen, and as I've said before...herbs are just medications without FDA labels. They have side effects, interactions, precautions, and can kill you in certain situations...just like regular drugs can. Just because they are "all natural" does NOT make them safe. And yes, I asked my doctor. And I'm on hardly any medication at all right now. You just never know. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 21st, 2005, 1:08pm Okay, so now that we're building some data, can anyone with a little more in-depth knowledge of common treatment (pharma's) begin to build a warning sheet? It's not as though the physician community is going to write one for us. Examples: - If you are taking any of the following drugs, ________, it may be best to either postpone taking kudzu, or detox from these meds before you begin your kudzu trial. - If you are a hemophiliac, don't take kudzu. - If you are taking blood-thinning medications, it would be advised that you don't take kudzu - If you have abnormal blood pressure, kudzu may not be recommended. Anyone disagree or want to add to this and make it more accurate and complete. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 21st, 2005, 1:17pm Sandy and Frank, thanks for the wishes. :) Scott: I'm not sure abnormal BP is an issue as much as low BP. It may actually be helpful for high BP. Also, pregnant and nursing women shouldn't use it because of the phyto-estrogens. Beyond that, I don't know. I guess this is the peril of beta testing....we just don't know. I do not plan on stopping it anytime soon. Even with my shadows and occasional "odd" hit, it's given me my life back. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:12pm -Blood thinning medications...to elaborate...include aspirin (yes, even the baby ones), NSAIDS of any type, and corticosteroids. There are a variety of meds that act as blood thinners without actually being labelled as such. The heavy hitters are coumadin and some others, but believe it or not...during my whole ordeal, I was still given sub-cutaneous heparin injections because they said that would have absolutely no effect on what had happened with the bleed. Plus due to the fact that I was having surgery and have a past history of DVTs, I have to get the heparin shots. -Another risk is recent (I can't figure how recent...would have thought I'd have been okay) surgery or future surgery. ALL herbal medications need to be stopped 2 weeks to one month prior to surgery, depending on the surgery type, your doctor's advisement, and your own medical history. Even vitamins/supplements have to be stopped before surgery. It's some serious stuff...Nobody wants to bleed out on the table. And in the case of recent surgery...you don't want to bleed out before you ever GET to the table. Can't tell ya how recent...that one will be up for grabs. Carrie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:50pm Carrue, I disagree, once more. ALL NSAIDS are blood thinners? Tylenol is not. Ibuprofen is not. Naproxen is not. Some of them may interact with warfarin and even those studies are inconclusive. Amazing, they made stop taking kudzu because of it's blood thinning properties, and they gave you subcutaneous blood thinning medication. Powerful one at that. Funny fact I found. Aspirin's fever reducing effect works through the hypothalamus by ...get this...vasodilation... Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:58pm Pardon me, Ozzy... I had meant to write something aside about tylenol, but then I got distracted by reading info on the hematology site here. Tylenol is the only OTC med that surgery allows patients to take here due to risk of bleeding. I was not allowed to take ibuprofin, toradol, naproxyn, or any other NSAID other than tylenol. Heparin has a different MOA which would not cause an actual bleeding disorder like that which I had. All of the nurses and doctors were telling me that just is showing the potency of the Kudzu and other meds. I've been shot up full of heparin lots of times and never had any massive hemorrhages from it. But again, I don't have the energy right now to look it all up because I still feel like shit. Taking a nap now. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Margi on Apr 21st, 2005, 3:11pm I always thought heparin was an anti-clotting med, as opposed to a thinning med. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 21st, 2005, 3:28pm Margi, actually, it's the same thing. http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2490 Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on Apr 21st, 2005, 3:44pm Carrie, Which brand were you using? Solaray? Natures Way? Was it "pure" or a blend with other herbals? i'm not trying to weasel Kudzu out of being the factor in your episode but all info is better than none. Outside of your physicians I would find it hard to believe another doctor in the country is going to know this info and if we can compile it, at least someone can have it. Scott |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 21st, 2005, 5:23pm Scott, Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I really did fall asleep almost immediately after my last post. Despite whatever arguments there are for and against Kudzu, I still feel pretty horrible from the entire incident. So anyways...what I take is not a blend. It's the nature's way Kudzu root. I believe those are the 613mg capsules? I took two capsules twice a day. Now I need to stay awake long enough to take a 2 hour exam online and I will probably go play in the pharmacology section of our online databases here at school. Just an FYI about heparin...some of you may recall the pictures of what my stomach looked like back in January once I got out of the hospital. That was my major prophylactic for getting more clots. At one point, there was blood oozing from each of the heparin sites...even ones older than 24 hours. I asked the nurse if she should check a PTT (clotting time test for heparin), and she said that it doesn't affect clotting enough to change that value. It would be an entirely different story if you were on a heparin IV drip. I'll fill out Floridian's survey later because I did take it for longer than a week, and it really was helping both my migraine and cluster...so it's a shame I ran into that mess. This morning, my neuro put me on doxepin, which is another tricyclic antidepressant. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by dougchunyo on Apr 22nd, 2005, 7:53am Overreactions, positive or negative can be a very bad thing. I tried the kudzu in lieu of shrooms because of the long growing time for shrooms. It worked very well for me, my cycle has ended a little sooner than would have been expected without the zu. So I should follow the advice of one person who had a very bad experience and not do it again? I think not. Doctors in our society are held in an awe that is not deserved. Lizzie2's reaction may have little to do with zu regardless of what her dr says. I doubt the medical professionals really know what the cause was. But the zu being the only thing they can think of to blame, the blame is placed there. Association does not equal causation. For example, the zu that she was taking could easily have had a potentiating effect on something else she was on. Meaning the zu could have multiplied the effect of a blood thinner or other med she was taking causing her bleed. I don't know, but I'd bet the doctors either. Just as it would be wrong to say that zu is the wonder drug for CH based on my experience, so also is it equally wrong to say that zu is extremely dangerous because one person had a bad experience. To quote a very good friend of mine who is a doctor, "most people will get better or worse in spite of everything we do for them." Care should be exercised by anyone putting anything into their bodies and equal care should be exercised when talking about any effects. I certainly hope she does not write any article about what happened unless she also includes information from the dozens who have taken the zu with no ill effects. I also hope she gets better and finds relief for her CH, just (in her case) that probably won't be zu. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Frank_W on Apr 22nd, 2005, 8:57am Well stated, Doug. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by JJA on Apr 22nd, 2005, 8:59am on 04/21/05 at 14:12:45, Lizzie2 wrote:
I'm confused. Were you getting heparin shots between the surgery and the "nose bleed"? Were you taking heparin and kudzu at the same time? Jesse |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:10am Doug, Thank you. My point exactly (though, mine wasn't that clear). Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:22am Ozzy, What bothers me most about the things you have said is that you act like it is complete BS that the Kudzu could have done that to me, and that it is still perfectly safe, despite it all. Granted I am one person. And Wendy has spoken of 2 others who have had complications in the UK, although we do not know the nature of the incidents. Just because one person had a reaction and nobody else did, does not mean we should write that off as insignificant. I was lucky the bleed was where it happened to occur instead of internal, or I wouldn't be alive right now. Of course I don't advocate that everyone should stop Kudzu. However, they really need to look at things more carefully. I don't know what made me more susceptible to that bleed. I was taking less verapamil than almost anyone else here at the time, and the only triptan I take is Amerge...and I dont' even take it once a day, let alone several times a day as some do. The fact that I don't know what made me more susceptible, and there is no hard evidence of side effects from certain medications is what scares and frightens me. Yes they labeled Kudzu as the inciting incident. Why would they not? All evidence pointed to that. They had the bottle; they did all kinds of research; they know my past medical history and current medications. They went into the surgery to do some exploring to find out what, exactly, may have caused the bleeding, and what they saw lead them to discover that it was not the result of something "normal" - but rather something I had added. Otherwise my body wouldn't have reacted that way. Just about a week before that incident, I went to the ENT (had no bleeding for the past 2 weeks), and he said everything looked well on the way to healing and perfectly healthy. That's a far cry from how he wound up having to describe it once I was brought into the OR. JJA, to answer you question. I was given sub-cutaneous heparin once I was admitted to the hospital. I was off Kudzu already. Any explanation I make here isn't going to make much sense without going into a long drawn out pharmacological post. However, sub-cu heparin is a prevention for blood clots, and does not thin the blood to the point where that type of bleeding would have occurred. Besides the fact that I received 3 sub-cu doses...one on Tuesday morning after being admitted, one Tuesday night after my surgery, and one Wednesday morning before being discharged. I took that several hours after the hemorrhage occurred. Ah well....as I said in my initial post...the majority will push on that Kudzu is perfectly safe and that there is no need to worry about things like that. I'm glad it's your own life in your own hands and not mine. That's all I can say about that. At this point, it's starting to piss me off. It's like, "Who gives a shit what you went through is related to our wonderful treatment?" You don't want to believe or see that because of the fact that it works so well for you. If you have to admit that these kinds of things can happen, then you have to admit that maybe it isn't as safe as was originally thought ... which is a scary thing for people who are trusting it completely. I'm not saying we shouldn't use it. But I truly think that even more needs to be done to find out the exact mechanisms and reasons behind why certain people will bleed. To my knowledge, I had no predisposing factors. My surgery was so long ago that it should not have been an issue. Think what you will. As I said, it's your life in your own hands and your choices to make. Just don't berate me for the choices I made. Had you been there and seen that blood, it probably would have scared you, too. Carrie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:01am Carrie, Maybe it sounds like I won't can't believe the kudzu to be the sole culprit. And I still believe the kudzu is not the sole culprit. If you recall, I was the one that suggested to you to check with your doctor(s) before starting on the kudzu. I am sure that before your operation somebody should've asked you to disclose all your medications (including herbal). With all that said, it was the hospital and doctors negligence not to have caught the "mistake" early. You may also recall, that I am a strong advocate of quitting everything before adding a new variable of treatment. It's just part of the scientific method. You are not saying explicitly that kudzu is bad. Every medication has adverse reactions. I have yet to find something that doesn't have adverse reactions. I am sorry it happened to you. You have gone through a lot and continue to go through a lot. I am not sorry to say that kudzu has worked for a great number of us, without nasty side effects. I am not sorry to continue saying, check with your doctor(s) before taking new medication I am not sorry to continue saying, to check effectiveness, just try one treatment at a time. Every person is an individual (redundant, I know), individual treatment(s) are warranted. Do what works for you. Thank you for sharing your (bad) experience. It will be helpful. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by E-Double on Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:29am on 04/22/05 at 11:01:18, ozzy wrote:
I follow this thread so very carefully along with others on alternative treatments, however I have not tried any yet. My first cycle ever experience meds and though I have been close to wanting to come off I personally can't yet......to the point: There are so many variables that do need to be taken into consideration and in an ideal situation quitting everything would be key but what if someone can not and the research leans towards it being acceptable to use. As far as scientific method goes you can also consider treatment and withdrawl procedures to see if adding something to the cocktail was the variable that made the difference. If you add it and it works you may withdraw it to see if you go back to baseline.....It is not always the most ethical thing to do whether it be in medical science or behavioral science but it will show an effect. Completely valid points on both sides. I've always been a person to take a chance with my well being yet with this stuff..meds different herbs and cocktails I am still in my infancy thus I am hesitant. I applaud all of you! It is however extremely beneficial to know these possible outcomes as much it is important for us to know not to mix triptans. I have had a well known doctor earlier in my cycle tell me it was ok.....despite what I read. I take many of your words over doctors (it seems many know more than docs).... For better for worse! Good luck all and be careful with anything we do. E |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by godsjoy777 on Apr 22nd, 2005, 1:40pm All very interesting....Because of these posts I have decided to go off the Zu ( temperarily of course) just for a few days while I get an endodontic surgical proceedure done....I have a retreat on a root canal, plus the Dr is going to do a slight incision to go into the top of the old root and shove the old pin out so she can fill it with all new material.....anyway.....because it involves surgery and possible bleeding, I have decided to just be off the Zu for 3 days prior to the surgery....I didn't think to discuss it with the Endodontist.....Hopeing for pain free nights and days-I still have my O2 and fully intend to get back on it when it is over if the clusters come back.....I've just passed my 7th month mark and going into the 8th month of this cycle....uncharted territory for me.... Hope to meet some of you crazy clusterheads this summer.....maybe I'll be out of cycle by then....(by the grace of God). Blessings, Karen |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Zephrah on Apr 22nd, 2005, 5:32pm :) hey everyone, I know i'm new and i'm a supporter, not a direct sufferer. ALL drugs have some adverse effects and ALL drugs are bad for some people, legal or not, herbal or not. This is just one more example. The doctors will always blame whatever variable would make them not responsible for the situation that was caused. If you hadn't taken the Kudzu, your doctor might be the one held responsible for what happened. But they probably would have found something else to blame it on like some strenuous activity, stress or anything else. i'm not saying that everyone should take it, the kudzu could have been a contributing factor. Its all at your own risk. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Zephrah on Apr 22nd, 2005, 6:12pm Oh yeah, sorry Lizzy I forgot, you had stated in an earlier post that your neurologist read a little about Kudzu and told you that you could start taking it. I don't know how to paste it. Sorry. Anyway, if ANY medical professional told you it was okay to take it and they think that was the cause of your bleed, that should be the responsible person. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ivanov on Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:22pm Since I am taking naproxen for my arthritis and fibro this whole bleeding issue with kudzu has gotten me scared shitless. Lizzie after going over your kudzu survey I saw that you were taking the antibiotic Levaquin. One of the rare side effects of this drug is bleeding and is even contraindicated with the use of Coumadin because of this possibility. I do not know if this was the factor that but you through this terrible ordeal but I think it should be investigated. Dan |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 23rd, 2005, 1:25am on 04/22/05 at 18:12:45, Zephrah wrote:
Thanks for remembering that. :) Yes I did ask my neuro about it. However, even though he read through a lot of the info - including Floridian's site - he told me that when he said okay to try it, that it was not without risks that we may not even know about yet. I don't blame my neuro for what happened. I really don't blame anyone. I just want everyone to make sure they are safe. That means discussing it with your doctor. Make sure your doctors know all medications - OTC, prescribed, herbal, and otherwise that you may be taking. And even then, if the doctor says it is okay, it is best to inform yourself as best as possible to make sure you feel comfortable with the choices you've made. I am still not sure what is the exact root (no pun intended by saying root!) cause of my bleed, but maybe it was a combination of things. I do know that Kudzu played at least a part in it. I got off as many meds as I was physically able before starting the Kudzu, but I wish I had known more. I'm really going to spend some time looking into things because I don't want to give up on Kudzu as a great treatment for both migraine and CH despite what happened to me. Lizzie2/Carrie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 23rd, 2005, 1:30am on 04/22/05 at 22:22:23, ivanov wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out, Dan. Every clue is another piece to the puzzle for me. I will look into levaquin and its side effects. Perhaps even a very rare side effect of bleeding with levaquin, when combined with Kudzu and a low dose of verapamil may have been what triggered the problem. When they said "Mush" inside my nose, it was really beyond a normal nose bleed triggered by something that causes a bleeding problem. The oozing was coming from so many places which is why they looked to the Kudzu. I don't believe it is a fault of human error as to why I bled like that. I believe my body just had a bad reaction. I do believe that the Kudzu played a role, although maybe not a solo role. It may have been in conjunction with some other things, but it still makes me feel that I need to warn others and also be more cautious myself. Take care, Carrie/Lizzie2 :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 23rd, 2005, 1:37am on 04/22/05 at 13:40:15, godsjoy777 wrote:
Hi Karen, An important thing to learn from this (which I actually HAD done) is to be sure you inform any physician/dentist/etc that you see of any and all medications you take - including vitamins, herbs, over the counter meds, street drugs included! I would recommend calling your endodontist and discussing the fact that you take an herbal med. Prior to most surgeries, the surgeon wants herbs to be stopped 2 weeks to 1 month prior to surgery - no matter what it is. However it depends on that particular surgeon's opinion. Prior to the bleed earlier this week, I was pretty concerned that I'd have to stop the Kudzu on May 1 in preparation for my bilateral knee surgery on June 1 because the Kudzu was actually helping me. I was afraid of how I would get through a month without the benefits that Kudzu had brought to me. However, it is very important to follow the rules for which meds to stop at what point when having surgery. They don't want to have anyone dying on the table! I even have to stop vitamin supplements (like Magnesium and multivitamins) at least a little bit before surgery. The day of my real sinus surgery (March 8), I was told I could only take verapamil and nexium. I wasn't even supposed to take my anti-seizure med, which made me a little nervous! Anesthesia is very particular about it, however. So...after this long-winded post, please just give your endodontist a call and let him or her know about your Kudzu use and find out when they want you to stop it prior to surgery. It is always best to err on the side of caution. And what do you have to lose from a phone call? Please be careful, Lizzie2/Carrie :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 23rd, 2005, 2:00am In two parts... on 04/22/05 at 11:01:18, ozzy wrote:
Continued below.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on Apr 23rd, 2005, 2:00am Continued to Ozzy from above... All I want is for people to be more careful. Yes, check with your doc. Yes, try to get off all other meds. But sometimes even that is not enough. I thought I was doing everything right. Kudzu alone is probably not the sole reason for what they found when they took me back to the OR, but I do believe it was definitely a contributing factor. I really need to look into more things before I can make a definitive statement. The main point was to share my story and hopefully at least show people the extreme caution we need to take when trying anything new - herbal, prescription or otherwise. Nothing is without risks, as you have also so stated. I don't think we are in total disagreement here. I will always keep Kudzu in mind as a potential excellent treatment for those with CH...especially those not helped by more traditional treatments. I just think that we need to address the good and the bad. I'm sorry if it came across that all I was stating was the bad. It's been a rough week, and I was scared for my life when I had that bleed. The results from the surgery were very disturbing to me, and of course they made me worry not only for myself, but also for others who are trying Kudzu and may have other issues going on. It will take ages before we really know all we need to know about Kudzu or any medication (herbal or otherwise), but I DO think it is important to share both good and bad experiences. If I get far enough away from the surgeries, I may try to add it back at a very low dose for awhile and then just see what happens with some very careful monitoring. I hope we can just let sleeping dogs lie at this point and recognize that we've both made valid points. My intention is not to destroy the idea that people should try Kudzu, but simply that they should be more informed than even a "go ahead" from the doc because sometimes even that is not enough! I don't blame my doc, anyone here, or myself for what happened. Things happen, and I still believe in accidents or bad reactions with no really great explanations. Take care, Carrie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Apr 27th, 2005, 9:41am Interesting observations: 1. I have bottles of Nature's Way and Nature's Plus. The latter does not seem to be as potent as the former (even on gassy side effects, Nature's Way is "way" more potent. 2. I've been with a cold the last few days. I took a decongestant for the stuffiness/runny nose. Well I took the decongestant 3 times. Results? For some reason, it seemed to interfere with the kudzu and I got hit. I stopped the decongestant and I'm back to pain free (took two days to be PF again) So keep it in mind. I think floridian wrote a long while ago about how the decongestants mess with the hypothalamous. 3.I should be in the middle of miserable allergy season. People around me, have it. Not me so far. May be a side effect of kudzu (not a far stretch, someone reported before that the other alternative treatment prevented allergies for them, being that both alternatives seem to work on the same receptors, it is not far fetched). ....BTW, I know the differebce between an allergy reaction to pollen and a the common cold. If you don't....look it up. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Apr 27th, 2005, 11:22am I started taking Kudzu (Nature's Way 613mg) Feb 24th . I have not taken any triptan meds since sometime in early February. I was having CH's right up to the 24th of Feb, but fought the battle without the triptan's, cause I wanted to try the Kudzu. I read everything Floridian post's. ( This is my choice...and not meant to mean that everyone should ) I take to heart the cautions of mixing Triptan's...and/or other meds. I started back taking the Melatonin when I started the Kudzu, but realized real quick that the Melatonin was something I could no longer tolerate. I had taken Melatonin since April of 2004...in December of 2004, the Melatonin stopped working for me. A couple of times since Dec, I tried going back on the Melatonin...to no avail. On April 5th, I had a Kip 8. Before that I had a few shadows and some hits.....but nothing that the Kudzu couldn't handle. I have shadowed maybe twice since the 5th. I have taken the Kudzu faithfully....and at the same time each day. However, twice in the last 5 days, I have intentionally waited and put off taking the Kudzu at my regular times to see if it would have any effect on me. This is something I could not do when I started the Kudzu. If I was a couple hours late taking it, I would shadow. Happy to report that taking only 1 dose in 12 hours has been successful. I no longer have the shadows (knock on wood), and I personally think I could taper down on the Kudzu and be ok. Not sure if I'll do that just yet though. I do keep a diary....and one thing noted...since taking the Kudzu, all the hits I had were Kip 10's. No 2's or 3's but 10's. (this excludes the April 5th hit) I was able to make it thru the Kip 10's with cold compresses...and they only lasted 10 to 15 minutes. I do take a multivitamin, B-50 Complex, and CoQ10 each day. All in all, the Kudzu has been a god-send to me. Of course, I said the same thing about the Melatonin...but it did give me many months of PF time before it quit working. Fingers crossed....I hope the Kudzu keeps on workin' for me. I think I was in a virtual cycle....with no beginning or end. For the first time in a year....I am able to lie down in a bed to sleep. PF vibes, Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 27th, 2005, 2:18pm That's good news, Jean. :) I'm not going to tempt fate and go off it anytime soon. Ozzy...interesting. I've been taking antihistimines (Claritin) lately and haven't noticed any problems with kudzu effectiveness. I missed a dose of 'zu the other day (actually- I took it 2 hours late) and suffered with a hit and heavy shadows that evening. I've become a total wuss now and could kick myself in the ass when I forget. Pluggin' away, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on Apr 28th, 2005, 10:50pm on 04/27/05 at 14:18:07, nani wrote:
Unless you're taking Claritin-D (D for decongestant), you won't run into what Oz's talking about. It's the Pseudoephedrine that would be the kicker. Quote:
Tsk tsk. That's like diabetics forgetting their insulin, or a cop forgetting his gun. Bad form. Keep it up, and in your next life you'll come back as a rock. Is it time for a new recruitment drive? More fresh blood for the beta tests? The other alt therapy threads seem to have a bit of a bite to them lately, but alas.........that's what happens when cousins marry. More sacrificial virgins. RJ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Apr 29th, 2005, 9:20am RJ, I know that decongestants and antihistimines are different, but since they are often taken together, I thought I'd bring up my experience. As far as new testers....yes...we need a few more...but I'm no longer recruiting. I no longer get the bonus money from the kudzu manufacturers... ;) No, really, folks should try it....if and when they fully inform themselves. It's working for a lot of us, didn't work for a couple of us and may have been dangerous for 3 of us. Know the potential risks and weigh them against your suffering. Just my [smiley=twocents.gif] |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on May 2nd, 2005, 4:36pm More experiments.... I tried skipping my morning dose of 'Zu. Not a good idea. Got hit last night (this morning) at 3:00 am and then again at 6:00 am. Learned my lesson. I had some remaining shadows afterwards and decided to "kill" them with my backup abortive...Red Bull. It worked nicely. BTW, O2 didn't even touch it. Hopefully I'll be back to PF again soon. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Smartin on May 3rd, 2005, 2:04pm Hey folks, I started my episode on April 17th when during a flight back to Phoenix from Indy, I had a bloody mary and it triggered an kip 5. The first one after 13 months pf. I discovered y'all in Jan 04 at the end of my last episode and went on Verap. (For 30 years, I thought I had "sinus headaches!!" according to my uniformed and thoughtless docs.) Now I thought that I had found the cure when I went through my usual episode time pf. Now this surprise visit from the monster. I posted in January that I was grateful for the advise I got from this site and that I was cured. I think someone posted back to say..."don't let your guard down. the beast can strike again at any time." I didn't believe them. Doc and I have upped the verap to 240 and I have a limited supply of Zomig. The O2 is stuck in referral at my insurance company...(I sent my tank back in Feb when the usual episode did not materialize...foolish me!!!) though I should get it today or tomorrow. I didn't want to use up all of my Zomig so early in the month and so on Sunday I thought I could ride out an HA. It was a doozie...10 and knocked my sox off...I burned the dinner I was cooking; hollered at the dog; hollered at the neighbor's kid; ignored my partner for two hours; and pretty much decided that I was gonna die this time. Sunday night I started on Melatonin and last night only had a fairly tolerable k5. Today I started on ZU. My cycles usually last for 2 to 3 months and build in intensity and frequency for the first month until Im getting 3 or 4 a day then they start to taper down the last month. I've been reading a lot here about ZU and hope that it works for me. I have notified my doc of my decision to try ZU and she asked that I come in for a check-up next week just to see how Im doing. (More on my doc some other time...it's been a real trial.) I will continue to watch the posts to see how people determine if they have reached the end of their cycle and stop taking the ZU. Thanks all for your input, care, concern and encouragement. Although I don't post much, I just need to say..."You're my heros!" ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by seasonalboomer on May 3rd, 2005, 2:37pm Hey Smartin' Welcome to Zu-land. Good luck. Remember a couple of things over the next couple of days. Not many went pain-free overnight. Most had some type of strange altering of their cycle in some manner before they saw the best results. And the best results were not gained without discipline of making sure you take on schedule and appropriate dose. Not to mention trying to get good night sleep and avoid the same things you would if you were in cycle (which you still are, but you just hopefully won't be feeling the hits). Here's hoping you can have some success on the Zu. After you have completed 7 days, please don't forget to post your test results on the test thread. And, give that dog an extra pet on the head for putting up with you through a kip 10 (as for the neighbor kid -- he/she probably deserved it) ;) ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Tiannia on May 3rd, 2005, 5:27pm OK here is what is happeneing with me. AFter I ran out of Kudzu, I will make sure that NEVER happens again. (Thank you Jean and Frank you war angels an Earth.) I am currently taking 2 613 Natures Way 3 times a day. I have learned that I need to take them at the same time everyday or I will get hit. But for the most part I can say that I am 85% PF. After almost a two Years of this, I am extactic. I am still getting hit I know. I will get the sweats and feel the preassure around my eye but I dont get the pain with it. My husband does not understand why if I am not getting the pain am I up at midnight walking around outside. It is habit, I still am waking up with the HA and go outside because it helps to cool me off. I think that my body is trained still. I am not up as long as I used to be, but still. I am getting HA that I have to fight about 1-2 every day or two. But this is great. They are normally not high kip, so no biggie. The few that do knock me up side my head... well I do still have trex, but it is not as effective to abourt now witht he kudzu. So I only use it as a last resort. The guy at GNC... well he is ordering 4 bottles for me every month and I have it set up to get them the 1st week of each month. I have 6 bottles under my bathroom counter right now. ;;D PF Wishes everyone. -Tia |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on May 4th, 2005, 6:48pm Requested info on Kudzu......max dose, LD 50, side effects, yeda yeda yeda..... So much for getting an intelligent response from the suppliers. We're _So_ on our own. RJ ==================================== Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:59:51 -0600 [01:59:51 PM PDT] From: Info-Internet Customer Service <info@NaturesWay.com> To: "Randy Jones via Naturesway.com" <Randy@kudzubusters.com> Subject: RE: General E-mail comments/questions via naturesway.com Headers: Show All Headers Thank you for sharing this with us but all we can give you is what is on the label. We are not a research company and would only have what is currently understood is the use for Kudzu. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by BlueMeanie on May 4th, 2005, 7:01pm on 05/04/05 at 18:48:27, Mr. Happy wrote:
Just curious, what is Kudzu used for ? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Mr. Happy on May 4th, 2005, 10:09pm on 05/04/05 at 19:01:33, BlueMeanie wrote:
CH. Was this a trick question? Planetary Formulas didn't want to be left out of the $64,000 question, either: ================================ Thank you for contacting Planetary Formulas. Unfortunately, we don't run clinical tests on our products, and therefore, I am unable to provide any specific tests as to high dosages, etc.. There doesn't appear to be any adverse reactions when taking appropriately and responsible. I think that your research sounds very interesting, and I have passed the information along to our product development department. Some common information sites might help with your research would be: http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/herbaldrugs/101640.shtml http://www.holisticonline.com/Herbal-Med/_Herbs/h329.htm Thanks again for your inquiry. I wish that I could be more helpful.> Best in health. > > John Taussig > Customer Service Research Rep > Planetary Formulas |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on May 5th, 2005, 1:08am Bob, Actually, it says it's for alcohol dependency. I know it's used for several things though. Tia, So glad you got the Kudzu problem solved, sweetie! Kinda strange....how we have to take it pretty much the same time every day [smiley=huh.gif] PF vibes, Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on May 5th, 2005, 10:02am Jean, As far as, the having to take it at the same time every day. To me that would indicate that the half life of kudzu is in the 4-6 hours range. This also corresponds with what my wife experienced with Kudzu and Imitrex. Taking trex 30 mins after kudzu, had no effect on her migraine. Taking trex 4 hours later, worked. Usually the trex works the first time (She was using trex instead of amerge, because she ran out) I have also been taking it for a while (3 months I think) and can now pretty much space it out whithin certain windows during the day. MEaning, I take kudzu 3 times a day at 7am, 12pm, 10pm (+ or - 2 hours). By looking at it, I basically load up in the morning and then I'm good for the day. If I skip the noon one. I'm in trouble. If I skip the morning one. I'm in trouble. I haven't tried skipping the nightime one. Maybe I'll try that tonight, or tomorrow, since I don't work Saturday...I'll think about that one. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 8th, 2005, 11:45am Hey, Mr Happy...write those company's back and tell them we'll be their "research" for free kudzu... ;;D Just goes to show you, though...we're really on our own here. Proceed with caution... ...as an aside, I had a margarita last night...no ill effects, either CH or possible "antabuse" type reactions. Next time, I'll have 2. ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on May 8th, 2005, 11:56am on 05/08/05 at 11:45:39, nani wrote:
LOL if it acted like antabuse, you better not be drinking...the drug antabuse, that is. You can't drink on that med, or it will have some pretty bad reactions. That's why, when they give it to recovering alcoholics, they have to make sure they won't even use cough syrup with any alcohol in it. Just a drop of alcohol on that med can cause some pretty nasty effects. However, I do get curious how many people taking Kudzu here have also found it to be helpful with any other addictions/cravings - such as alcohol, smoking, etc. Just a passing thought. :) Lizzie :) edited to modify my post after further posting more info on Antabuse.... ::) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 8th, 2005, 12:00pm DEAD?!? Shoot, had I known that... :( Someone here said that kudzu was herbal "antabuse"...can't remember who... Whew... As far as my addictions...can't say I smoke less or eat less chocolate. :-[ Of course, I haven't tried to quit or cut down, either. edited to add: Carrie good luck on your LAST final, tomorrow!! WhooHoo..... :D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on May 8th, 2005, 12:08pm Thanks for the good luck on the final!! I've been studying like crazy (last night and will pick up again today) because my grade in that class sucks. Hopefully I'll do well on the final!! I may have over-exaggerated with the use of the term "dead" - in my next post, I'll post the drug info for Antabuse - I still wouldn't risk mixing antabuse with alcohol, given the reactions that can ensue!! At any rate, I have no idea if Kudzu is like herbal antabuse. From what my thinking is, Kudzu has the potential to reduce cravings but not make you actually sick to the point of near death if you drink while on it! I dunno that much about it, though! Cont'd in the next post because the drug info took up too much space... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on May 8th, 2005, 12:17pm Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on May 8th, 2005, 12:20pm There's more info, but it is all too long to post, and in general not needed in this thread unless someone really is thinking Kudzu is just like antabuse and then translates that if it is okay to drink in Kudzu, it's okay to drink on antabuse, which is not at all the case - but I think you get my point! :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by don on May 8th, 2005, 12:47pm Quote:
Not likely. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Jonny on May 8th, 2005, 2:22pm on 05/08/05 at 11:56:48, Lizzie2 wrote:
Just HOW do they do that? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Lizzie2 on May 8th, 2005, 2:30pm on 05/08/05 at 14:22:38, Jonny wrote:
Well...like any direction/medical info/etc - there's no way to be sure people will actually listen and follow directions. If they fear for their lives, they might be a little more apt to, but even then...the power of addiction is pretty strong biologically. So, for one, the person has to WANT to do this treatment - if they don't want to from the start, it's not worth trying or risking the person's well being. And in the end, there is no way to ensure that a person won't take something with alcohol...just like there's no way to be sure someone on an MAOI won't go take something that can send them into hypertensive crisis/seritonin syndrome. And that's why we have ER's.... Don't sign me up! Lizzie |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by don on May 8th, 2005, 5:50pm Quote:
A little over dramatic. If someone consumes alcohol while using antabuse they will become violently ill long before they reach the blood alcohol content that would result in death. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by clarence on May 9th, 2005, 7:49am Sorry I've been out of it for a while. I finished classes, and started working for a guy who does home renovations. I basically move dirt. I also built a flagstone patio. But that is neither here nor there. I have been meaning to post this for a while, but have been so freakin busy. I have been off Kudzu for about 3 weeks now. I decided to go off of it after I lost my Emergency Room virginity (for CH related stuff anyway). I was sitting at home and was having difficulty breathing. I had had the same type of difficulty periodically for the past few weeks, rather randomly, but this particular night it was especially hard to breathe, and my chest felt really tight. I called the consultation nurse, who asked me a series of questions (like, was I choking), and then told me I need to go to the ER, either in a cab or in an ambulance. Well, I wasn't all that worried until then. So, I ended up walking to the ER. The triage nurse said it was a really good thing that I came in. This freaked me out even more. I was in the ER and having a really hard time breathing. I got there at 9pm, they called me into a room at midnight. To make a long story shorter, at 4 am nobody had even walked into my room, so I left. Still having a hard time breathing. They did an EEG, and blood work. But I don't know what the results were. I figured 7 hours in the ER was enough for me, and that the next time I came to the ER i would have to be dying. Anyway, I decided to get off of all of my meds, as I thought that something I was taking could have caused it. I suspected Kudzu, because when I was on Verapimil I had similar, though less dramatic, effects. So I have been off of it for about 3 weeks, and am breathing much better now. But, the downside is that I am getting hit daily now. Not too intense, but still crippling. I will probably start taking it again, to experiment with the effects. Also, the fact that going off kudzu did not break my cycle, as it has for some other, further highlights my fear that I am changing to chronic. I am not really worrying about it for now, but, I would be surprised at this point if my "cycle" ended. Hope y'all are doing well. Casey |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by PaulL on May 9th, 2005, 9:46am but this particular night it was especially hard to breathe, and my chest felt really tight. You better call the ER back immediately and find out what they learned. You could have heart trouble or even have had a heart attack. Good luck and sorry about the return of the CHs. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on May 9th, 2005, 10:07am Quote:
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Jonny on May 9th, 2005, 4:20pm on 05/09/05 at 10:07:50, Bob P wrote:
[smiley=headbanger.gif] ....LMAO ;;D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on May 9th, 2005, 4:59pm Yeah. Like who was I fooling! Must be that damn addictive clusterhead personality. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Jonny on May 9th, 2005, 6:38pm on 05/09/05 at 16:59:47, Bob P wrote:
Point takin ;) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on May 10th, 2005, 9:29am Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway...... No thread highjacking Back to our regularly scheduled Kudzu updates. I reported earlier that Kudzu is keeping my allergies at bay. Well it seems that with the chest cold I had, my body was working overtime fighting off germs and allergens. The kudzu power for allergies is only borderline. I don't have full blown allergies like ALL the past years, only itchy eyes once or twice a week and sneezing now and then. Not perfect, but not bad either. Still PF. Oh and BTW, no problem drinking once in a while. I even had red wine a couple of weeks ago. No probs. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 10th, 2005, 9:34am I'm so glad you're still PF oz! I'm still 98 - 99% PF...an occasional shadow or "mini" hit. I got hit yesterday while sitting with a friend. Never got above a k4...but was quick and sharp. Best part...it was over in about 3 minutes. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 16th, 2005, 12:47pm Allergy season. I sneezed one of those head snapping, almost wet my pants sneeze...a big trigger for me. It triggered a 3 minute k7. Fortunately the 7 part only lasted about 45 seconds. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by wetdogtwo on May 21st, 2005, 11:21am I just read an article about kudzu and alcohol. Basically, they found it effective in cutting down on binge drinking. One of the theories is that it increases bloodflow to the brain, which may satisfy your alcohol craving more immediately. Just a theory. Anyhow, the study showed that kudzu ingesters averaged 1.5 fewer drinks a night than non. Here's one of the articles on the study: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/05.19/09-kudzu.html Point is, it is not going to kill you if you take kudzu while drinking. In fact, you're probably going to be better off. By the way, I read (a day late) that there is anecdotal evidence that kudzu can interact with psychedelic mushrooms. I can say as for last night, it does seem to be true. I'm a week into my cluster and have been using mushrooms (usually as a prophylactic, but I've found it effective as an abortive in very small doses). Last night, it aborted an oncoming poopstorm of a headache. I also just started taking kudzu yesterday; after the mushrooms, I took my second dose of kudzu. Two hours later, I woke up with my head banging up against a solid 8. This morning I read on Med-Owl the following: Anecdotal evidence suggests that kudzu can block the effects of psilocybin; one person reports that taking a normal dose of kudzu for a week completely blocked the psychological and physical effects of 1.5 grams of psilocybin mushrooms. Those interested in the Clusterbuster approach should consider the strong possibility that kudzu will interfere with that therapeutic approach. Truth be told, I probably still would have done both had I read this. If it said, "the following clinical studies show that your brain will explode if you take both..." that would have been different. Still, I should have done more research before diving in. But now I know that - for me - mushrooms won't help me as an abortive while I am on kudzu. So to echo what I've read on this thread - do your homework, listen to your body, know that herbal remedies can have interactions with other treatments. My fingers are crossed for the kudzu! Thanks to everyone for sharing their info and experiences. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 22nd, 2005, 11:55am UPDATE: I have a new trigger. Heat. The last few days have been very hot here. Leave the car parked with the sunshade on and it's only about 140 degrees when I get back in it. Both Friday and yesterday, I got back in the car and within 5 minutes (before the A/C can cool anything) I was hit. Still relatively easy hits (not over a k4) still pretty short...Friday's was 30 minutes, yesterday's was about 20 minutes. I've had the same triggers for decades...heat was never one of them. Hmmmm..... http://bestsmileys.com/thinking/4.gif |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on May 23rd, 2005, 9:54am And thank you WDT (WedDogTwo) for your input. It is very valuable to have information from someone that tried both therapies simultaneously. Update. Still chugging along, but I guess I found an impossible combination (like Nani) for kudzu to counteract. Heat+Exercise+Beer+2-minute-nap=CH Not a bad one Kip5 or so but CH nonetheless. Had to just wait it out. Then again, I guess I need to try it again, and see if it happens the same way. Might have been the day only. Won't know for sure until I try it a few times. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 29th, 2005, 11:22am UPDATE: I've had about 5 bad days in a row. Mostly shadowing, but longer and harder than previously. I'm going to play with my doses and timing to see if it helps. By last night I was feeling a little discouraged, but I'm not giving up. If memory serves me right (mostly it doesn't serve me at all, LOL) this time of year was a cycle time when I was episodic. So, I'm not altogether surprised by the increase in activity. Even as a chronic, I'd have more severe "episodes". Hanging in... and I'll keep updating. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on May 31st, 2005, 2:13pm Nani, have you tried to "bunch up" the doses at all? Meaning, during times of day when you are most likely to get hit, take Kudzu a couple of hours before and after. Also I don't remember if you take Melatonin with it (too lazy to look it up). Finally, have you tried using things like Red Bull (for the Taurine, Caffeine and B6) as an abortive? Sometimes that helps me get through period s of higher activity... Ozzy PS. Since you are taking allergy medication, it could be possible that the histamine blocking effects are making your CHs weird..who knows.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on May 31st, 2005, 11:40pm Thanks, ozzy. I've also wondered about the allergy meds. I'm not taking them everyday now, just on days when they're really bad. I've adjusted the kudzu dosing a bit and had some improvement. I now take 2 kudzu at 10 AM with my other prevents, 2 more at 2 PM, and 2 at 8 PM. That seems to hold the shadows down to pretty manageable levels. I haven't had a hit in a couple of days, so that's good. I use caffeine (coffee or a Pepsi) for shadows and it works. I'm still not getting hit at night, so I don't think melatonin is neccesary. During bad "cycles", I do get hit at night and use it. I already take a B-50 complex, can I use an additional B6 to abort? I have no O2 right now, so it would be nice to have another option. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Jun 7th, 2005, 11:01am Nani, Sorry it took so long to respond. As the melatonin goes, since it, regulates the body clock, it could be beneficial for daytime hits as well. Melatonin is kinda funny. Some people do well with 3 mg (myself included) others do best with 9 mg (gave me more hits and vivid nightmares. Others prefer extended release (may help those who get hit primarily at night) Other do well on 0.3 mg. Much like every cluster med, you need to find the dose that works best for you. As for aborting with Red Bull, I think Floridian has something in his Med-Owl page about the components and quantities. Me? For those breakthrough hits, it's just convenient to go the convenience (pun intended) store and pick a one or two cans of RedBull. As a matter of fact, my wife found out that Red Bull works for her migraines.....incredibly fast and completely!!! Hey maybe I have meegraines...LOL Ozzy Needless to say, I am NOT a doctor, everything I have said is solely my opinion, based on my personal research and experience PS. The last statement was not intended for you Nani, just my CYA |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 7th, 2005, 11:17am Thanks, Ozzy...I'll get some Red Bull to keep around the house. ( I think I remember reading something about taurine in Red Bull on Flo's site) I was told once that melatonin can be a trigger for chronics, so I keep it at 3mg. I'm still doing pretty well, the adjustments have helped a lot. I think I'll add melatonin tonight just as an experiment. PF wishes to all, nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by javi_spain on Jun 13th, 2005, 5:14pm Hey Nani How are you doing with the zu+melatonin combination? You mentioned in your last post that you had made some adjustments that had helped a lot, could you please let us know what you did? upped the dose? changed the frequency of dosing? You also mentioned that this is the time of the year where you would usually suffer more sever attacks, I hope such time is passed soon. PF wishes Javier |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Jun 13th, 2005, 5:27pm Kudzu field in May: http://www.kdlltd.com/vig/kudzus.jpg Same Kudzu field this weekend: http://www.kdlltd.com/vig/kudzuJunet.jpg Click below for full size: www.kdlltd.com/vig/kudzuJune.jpg It's like a carpet. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by wetdogtwo on Jun 13th, 2005, 7:28pm Vig, So basically, while kudzu helps cluster headaches, it causes its own different kind of headache. Yikes! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 14th, 2005, 1:17am on 06/13/05 at 17:14:24, javi_spain wrote:
Hi Javier, I used 3 mgs of melatonin for 4 nights and didn't notice any difference in CH activity. The adjustments I made to kudzu were in timing. I am currently taking 2 kudzu tablets at 10 AM, 2 at 2 PM and 2 at 8 PM. I'm back to about 98% PF time. I am still taking verapamil (again, for blood pressure issues, not CH) and have stopped taking Neurontin altogether. So, I'm back to being VERY satisfied with this treatment. :D ~nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Jun 15th, 2005, 1:26am I'm in the middle of my 5th week....total pain free. Haven't had the slightest hint of a CH or even a shadow. Been on the Kudzu since Feb 24th. Still taking it, even tho I'm pf. Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 15th, 2005, 4:32am That's great news, Jean. :) I had a 100% PF day yesterday. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by vig on Jun 15th, 2005, 9:20am on 06/15/05 at 01:26:01, TxBasslady wrote:
fanFrigginTastic Jean! |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 16th, 2005, 9:24am Yesterday was another 100% PF day. :) |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Jun 17th, 2005, 10:29am Jean, Fantastic news!!! I have to say that for the past 4 or is it 5 months, I have gained my life back with Kudzu. PF 95% time. I have a normal life, sometimes gassy ;;D Kudzu is powerful (in many different ways!!) Have fun folks. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Redd715 on Jun 17th, 2005, 10:36am Thats freaking AWSOME!!!!!!!!! I'm so happy for all who have found relief from the Zu. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 17th, 2005, 4:53pm Thanks, Pegg. :) Yesterday was PF, too. That makes 3 in a row. Today has been PF so far also. If I get through today it will break my previous completely PF record since I became chronic in 2000. 98% PF was great....100% is incredible. I'm doing a very tiny, non-jinxing happy dance. :D |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 22nd, 2005, 10:27am After 6 glorious PF days, I attempted to wean off kudzu. Mistake. I got through day 7 with only a very minor 20 minute shadow. Day 8... a very emotional day (long story...another dog) and had shadows for a total of probably 4 hours. They hung around at about a k4. Back on the full amount of kudzu again.... :-[ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by TxBasslady on Jun 28th, 2005, 1:36am Totally PF..!!!! ;;D Still taking the Kudzu....haven't got the gutz to taper off. This is the most PF time I've had since March '04. See y'all in Dallas.... ;) Jean |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Jun 28th, 2005, 10:34am Nani, I too decided to experiment with tapering off. Just skipped the lunch dose to see what happens. I was OK until about 5 pm, when the shadows came in fully loaded. Today I'm back on regular scheduled doses. It may not have been the best time to taper. Just got back from Alaska and even though the Melatonin is great to adjust to time-zone changes, I still struggled with 4-5 hours of sleep at night. (BTW, same thing over in Alaska, hard to sleep when it is so light out after midnight, even with melatonin and curtains closed...) Anyway, in a couple of weeks I'll try again and see what happens. Jean, Congratulations!. I'm PF as well. I just want to be med free, yeah even 'Zu Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jun 28th, 2005, 2:11pm Jean...that's terrific!!! :) Ozzy, I'm still not back to 98% yet. Back on 6 kudzu a day for the last week, I'm still only at about 75% PF. :( Not complaining, exactly, just tired... and I'm getting tired of the bucket o' pills I have to take everyday. I'm under a lot of stress lately so I'm not ready to stop long enough to try another alternative...YET. Pluggin' away.... |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by E-Double on Jun 28th, 2005, 3:41pm So nice to hear(read ;)) about you all!!!! Nani, I'm sure things will work out but for now know that life is still much better than before hand ..right??? Many hugs to all you pioneers!!! Eric |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Jun 30th, 2005, 8:54am Well, it happened...the daily shadows continued everyday until last night I got hit at midnight. Funny, when you have a preventative that works, you tend to forget what real pain feels like.....damn it sucks! LOL I guess that is an understatement! The purity of the pain is unmistakeable. It's clear-pure-shiny pain... Well, time to go to a regular dose (instead or half a dose or less) BTW, the Imitrex was in my hand, tears rolling down my eye... then I put it away. Needless to say I didn't get hit again last night. Today, it's only shadows, and those I can deal with.. So the lesson for me is....no tapering (yet) Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by birdman on Jun 30th, 2005, 9:37am I finally finished reading this thread from the start. Took me four days of cheating at work to do it. Anyway, I cannot express the hapiness I have for those of you who have found relief. It is well deserved. I am a verap doser so I think I need to be careful with the BP and pulse. Probably wiat till I taper off the verap as I am episodic. Just wanted to say hurrah for everyone and a very big thank you to Floridian. I feel like I have found a new religion. I guess that makes Floridian L Ron Hubbard. |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jul 5th, 2005, 1:35am Well...12 days now, back on 6 tablets a day. The CH activity has been erratic. One PF day, a few easy days and a few rough ones. I got hit twice today. Both at about a k7, fortunately not very long lasting (about 20 minutes each). My nose didn't get runny or stuffed and my eye wasn't very droopy either. I think it may be time to get some O2 again. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by ozzy on Jul 15th, 2005, 2:24pm Nani, Don't despair. Sometimes when you unbalance the system, things get erratic, the key is to keep working thru. By now you should be back on track with Kudzu, but once you get back from the convention Enjoy the convention. Ozzy |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Jul 21st, 2005, 7:24pm Kudzu never again helped me as much as it did before I totally screwed it up. :'( Regretfully, I'm moving on to another alternative treatment plan. I've had a short visit to PF land, and dammit, I wanna go back. I feel like I'm letting someone down, but then I realize...I let me down. Chronics, if you find a kudzu regime that works, keep it up. I suppose it's possible that it would of have stopped working for me after a while, most meds do. I will update on my other treatment soon, on another thread, of course. I continue to fully support this treatment and will help others to try it in any way I can. And rest assured, I'm not throwing away any left over 'zu. PF wishes, nani :-[ |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Bob P on Jul 22nd, 2005, 10:08am Just some ramblings for the 5ht brains. This thread starts with Zu as a ht1 agonist and ht2 antagonist. Not actually being 5HT, I would surmise that zu is not metabolized by reuptake. So how would a tri-cyclic (reuptake inhibitor) effect zu? Would it be a + - type action? + would be that reuptake inhibition would increase 5HT-1 to act in conjunction with the ht-1 agonist properties of zu? - would be the increase of 5HT-2 which would fight the ht-2 antagonist properties of zu? Whatcha think? |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by nani on Aug 11th, 2005, 3:24pm It appears that kudzu failing a chronic sufferer after an attempted taper is not unique to me. I've just heard from someone else that has had this experience. So...chronics...if it's working for you, you may not want to risk a taper. :( Sorry for the bad news. ~nani |
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Title: Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu Post by Shiraj on Aug 14th, 2005, 3:01pm Well I dont think kudzu works for me anymore. :( I just got through another cycle that was only 6 months since the last one. Ive never gotten one in the summer before. I think the kudzu worked the last time but maybe just delayed it? The cycle was very weak compared to my normal and only lasted 2 weeks. This time i took the same amount of kudzu and nothing happened. Does anyone know if maybe a tolerance develops or what? Im going back to the CB.. |
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