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(Message started by: MichaelEaston on Dec 28th, 2004, 5:06pm)
Title: Chinese Medicine
Post by MichaelEaston on Dec 28th, 2004, 5:06pm
Hi all. I was here a couple months ago when I first got my cluster headaches, but I have forgotten my username so I needed to re-register.

Anyway, I am in the 8th (I think) week of my second cluster headache and my mother wants me to check out Chinese Medicine since western medicine (with the exception of Zomig and Neurontin) have not seemed to work.

This would include a deep painful massage in order to unblock energy and different organic substances that are put together and drank as tea.

I personally do not have any faith in this treatment but my mother seems to be pushing for it, being that she has adult friends who have found relief from other serious ailments and injuries.

Has anyone tried this treatment? What do you think of it?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Dec 28th, 2004, 5:36pm
Hi ...I've never tried it for CH, but hey...can't hurt right? I personally would probably try just about anything to see if it might work. I would be waty of claims that it can "cure" anything.  just my  [smiley=twocents.gif] Good luck...let us know
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Kris_in_SJ on Dec 28th, 2004, 8:24pm
I'd never say never try it, but deep tissue massage is unlikely to help CH (my daughter is a medical massage therapist).  The tea might help if it is made from a certain type of mushroom that is illegal in the U.S. at the moment.  However, I've heard those Chinese herbalists can work wonders.  

Unless your mom is paying for it all though, do a little more research.  You could end up spending a fortune for very little, if any, relief.

Here's hoping for the best!

Kris  
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Dec 28th, 2004, 9:22pm
Michael,
you write "... since western medicine (with the exception of Zomig and Neurontin) have not seemed to work."
The last time I looked both Zomig and Neurontin were part of western medicine, so it's not too far fetched that you have been helped by it.
Did you try any of many "western" treatments, like oxygen, verapamil, topamax, lithium, imitrex, dekapote, ....., for all of which there are many success reports on this message board.

Your mother probably is looking for a "cure" for CH, something that western medicine cannot provide, in the same way there is no "cure" for a leg lost in an accident. But, albeit there is no cure for CH, modern medication can to a large extent ameliorate its devastating effects.

The alternative of "a deep painful massage in order to unblock energy" does not appeal to me. Where is this elusive "energy" or "chi" blocked?  How can we be sure, that when it is unblocked, it doesn't just escape to outer space? What are theoretical foundations that CH has to do anything with the lack of some mysterious, unquantifiable "energy"?

A year ago I wrote a post about the merits of this Chinese mumbo jumbo:

Why Do I Not Believe In Chinese Medicine (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=medsarchive2003;action=display;num=1036479389)

and I still stick to that opinion.


nani,
you say "...can't hurt right?"  Did the "deep painful massage" escape to you?  ;;D
As a clusterhead you know how much untreated cluster attacks hurt. Going untreated for a few weeks, for some unproven mystic treatment instead, does hurt quite a bit IMHO.

PFNADs,
Ueli, a strong believer in better living through pharmaceutical products                 [smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by MichaelEaston on Dec 28th, 2004, 10:37pm
I have tried many medications but my mother and the doctors want me to avoid to avoid the heavier stuff since I am so young.

Is there anyone out there that has actually tried it?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by floridian on Dec 29th, 2004, 1:37pm
I have been to an acupuncturist (2 actually) in the past two months for non-CH conditions.  The first guy, 3 treatments - no effects.  One needle in each foot, one needle in each wrist, no change in anything I was going for (anxiety/high blood pressure).

So I switched to someone that a friend recomended. First session had the endorphins flowing - they did a treatment called removing aggressive energy that involved 10 or so needles in the back, parallel to the spine.  I was incredibly relaxed to the point of being groggy (it was equivalent to 4 beers, which for me is quite a bit).  After a few more treatments, some exercise and lifestyle changes, my blood pressure is 122/84 and anxiety is back to normal.

Skepticism like Ueli expresses can be good, but I think he is a bit dogmatic. There are thousands of studies that provided evidence that acupuncture is more than placebo:

1)  Contrary to what Ueli wrote in his essay, the meridians and acupuncture points can be measured using electrical conductivity/resistance of the skin. They are also associated anatomically with a high density of particular types of nerves.   (see abstracts below)  Another recent study from the Mayo Clinic found very high correspondence between a map  of tender points reported by a group of fibromyalgia patients and the traditional map of acupuncture points - they concluded that it was not a random correlation.  

2)  Researchers led by Gerhard Litscher at the University of Graz have shown (using a double blind experiment with laser acupuncture) that stimulating acupoints that the chinese associate with vision lead to changes in the visual cortex of the brain that can be seen on a fMRI scan.  No such changes in the brain were seen with stimulation of other acupoints, or sham stimulation of non-acupoints.
www.litscher.info/Publikationen.html  (auf Deutsch)

3) You mention teas (the pharmaceutical side of Chinese Medicine) - I personally think that would be more likely to have an effect on clusters than acupressure or acupuncture.  Regardless of what anyone thinks of the idea of chi, there are compounds in the chinese pharmacopia that alter serotonin, block CGRP,  reduce nitric oxide release, turn down inflammation, etc etc - these are all involved in cluster headache, although whether or not they help with clusters is an open question.  

I don't see at as an either/or situation - clusters are painful and it is worth seeing a neurologist or other specialist who knows these headaches (most MDs and acupuncture physicians know little or nothing about them, although they may know a great deal about general health). Oxygen is a generally effective medicine that has few side effects.  Melatonin before bed is helpful for many episodics, but doesn't help chronics - not sure what effects it has on a younger person.  

If you do go the acupuncture/acupressure route, print this article and take it to the person who does your treatments: http://tinyurl.com/3u67j  One focus of this article was on using acupuncture to improve the adrenal function (ie boost cortisone production in the body). It is a case study, and it hard to make conclusions based on one person, but maybe it will be helpful.


(continued)
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by floridian on Dec 29th, 2004, 1:38pm
(continued from previous post)


Quote:
Brain Res. 2004 Jun 25;1012(1-2):154-9.      

   Human acupuncture points mapped in rats are associated with excitable muscle/skin-nerve complexes with enriched nerve endings.

   Li AH, Zhang JM, Xie YK.

   As part of our ongoing investigation into the neurological mechanisms of acupuncture, we have tried to correlate the distribution of afferent nerve endings with acupuncture points (AP) in the rat hind limbs. In vivo extracellular microfilament recordings of Aalpha/Abeta/Adelta fibers were taken from peripheral nerves to search for units with nerve endings or receptive fields (RF) in the skin or the muscles. The location of the RFs for each identified unit was marked on scaled diagrams of the hind limb. Noxious antidromic stimulation-induced Evans blue extravasation was used to map the RFs of C-fibers in the skin or muscles. Results indicate that, for both A- and C-fibers, the distribution of RFs was closely associated with the APs. In the skin, the RFs concentrate either at the sites of APs or along the orbit of meridian channels. Similarly, the majority of sarcous sensory receptors are located at the APs in the muscle. Results from our studies strongly suggest that APs in humans may be excitable muscle/skin-nerve complexes with high density of nerve endings.
----
Tohoku J Exp Med. 1998 Sep;186(1):19-25.      

   Transient decrease in skin resistance response and level at the deh-chi stage caused by manual acupuncture.

   Liao TJ, Urata S, Nishikawa H.

   Deh-chi is described as a kind of soreness, numbness, or heavy swelling in deep tissues during manual acupuncture. This finding is important in acupuncture therapy, although the mechanism of this phenomenon remains unclear. Skin resistance response (SRR) and skin resistance level (SRL) are expressed as a component of alternating current and direct current changes in electrodermal activity (EDA) respectively. In the present study, we recorded SRR and SRL, skin blood flow and perspiration simultaneously in an attempt to determine the relationship between skin sympathetic nerve activity and EDA at the deh-chi stage. We found that SRR, SRL and skin blood flow decrease, and that perspiration increases transiently at the deh-chi stage. Our findings indicate that manual acupuncture causes an increase in vasomotor and sudomotor activities, a decrease in skin blood flow, and increased perspiration. These SRR and SRL recordings may be taken as an indicator of deh-chi.
-----

Am J Chin Med. 1998;26(1):19-27.      

   Topography of low skin resistance points (LSRP) in rats.

   Chiou SY, Chao CK, Yang YW.

   Based on the electrical properties of the skin, a method employing the unijunction transistor (UJT) relaxation oscillator for detecting low skin resistance points (LSRP) was developed in this study. By means of this instrumentation, the topography of the LSRP in Wistar rats was developed. All the LSRP in the rats were found to be bilaterally and symmetrically distributed except those points located on the dorsal midline (i.e., governor vessel, GV) and the ventral midline (i.e., conception vessel, CV). The resistances of the LSRP on these two major vessels, including 14 CV points and 17 GV points of six rats were experimentally determined to be in the ranges of 179.4 +/- 41.2 K omega and 152.5 +/- 32.2 K omega, respectively. The resistances of the GV points were found in general to be lower than those of the CV points. Most non-LSRP, on the other hand, exhibited resistances of greater than 420 K omega. It is noted that the resistances of most LSRP increased yet still retained a separate identity within thirty minutes after the death of the animals, but the low resistance properties of some LSRP gradually disappeared thereafter and could not be detected by the relaxation oscillator.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Dec 29th, 2004, 3:19pm

Quote:
Did the "deep painful massage" escape to you?


No... painful massage can also lead to pain relief. You know, I'm for anything that makes any ailment feel better, Ueli. And frankly, you shouldn't knock something until you've tried it. I have gotten relief from a number of other issues with "alternative" medicine, including Chinese medicine.

Just curious...are you gettin' a kick back from the drug companies?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Dec 29th, 2004, 9:21pm

Quote:
you shouldn't knock something until you've tried it


Why not? Why would I go where many others have gone before and have only failed.

Dont knock it till you've tried it is a ridiculous statement to make when treating CH.

I've never tried Bonji stones but I already know that is pointless, so I wouldn't bother to try it.


Quote:
Just curious...are you gettin' a kick back from the drug companies?


The old bat doen't need to. He's Bill Gate's uncle-in-law.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Dec 29th, 2004, 9:26pm
don, don, don....I stated to be wary of "cure" claims, but that doesn't mean it might not make him feel better in other ways. I get all tense and agitated and depressed along with CH...I would try anything to make myself feel better in any way.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by E-Double on Dec 29th, 2004, 9:35pm
Does "Happy Ending" after the massage constitute Chinese Medicine? ;)
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Dec 29th, 2004, 9:36pm
Try Bonji stones and get back to me.


Quote:
Does "Happy Ending" after the massage constitute Chinese Medicine?


ROFLMMFAO. Does in my book.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by MichaelEaston on Dec 29th, 2004, 9:56pm
I've tried Accupuncture...no relief at all...homeopathy...no relief at all...chiropracter....no relief at all..and to the "deep massage guy" once and I didn't get any relief, and I felt like it was a waste of time.

Personally I think I could be going down another path rather than than all of these alternative doctors who haven't helped me.

My family is just looking for an answer but they are looking the wrong way.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by E-Double on Dec 29th, 2004, 10:05pm
At least they are trying dude.....Support goes a long way!!

The massage could possibly help alleviate the tension you might get from thrashing around.....

And the happy ending just helps life in general [smiley=laugh.gif]

good luck brother!!

E.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Dec 29th, 2004, 10:11pm
Ummm eric....


Quote:
she has adult friends who have found relief from other serious ailments and injuries.



Quote:
want me to avoid to avoid the heavier stuff since I am so young
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by E-Double on Dec 29th, 2004, 10:25pm
Define adult.........

Come on Nani....Don't try to change the topic and skew my comment. ;)...
If this lad is that young his mom would not be pushing "happy endings" to begin with........

I am far from deviant....perverse and sometimes inappropriate but not a freak [smiley=laugh.gif]

Seriously.........

How old are ya Michael?

I wish you well and if you are at least 18 then enjoy....
If not..."Happy Ending" means a smile and the end of a fairy tale as in "Happily Ever After"

Eric
(A man who's name is followed by Alphabet soup and who wants to keep all of his credentials therefore will not be making anymore silly comments for fear of a liable suit)
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Dec 29th, 2004, 10:40pm
...just wanted to bring it to your attention, hun... :)
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by karma on Dec 30th, 2004, 6:26am
Michael,
You have unwittingly entered into the treatments methods that have polarized many.
There are many that rely completely on standard meds. and there are many that rely on non-traditional methods. One of the things to remember is that there is NO cure for CH we can only treat the symptoms.
Give oxygen a serious look. This is a great way to limit the amount of triptans used.
Give the mushroom treatment a serious look. If your mom is looking for alternatives to" western meds" then this may interest her and more importantly you.
I tried the Triptan route and while I never say never, it will be way down on the list of things I will try in the future.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by MichaelEaston on Dec 30th, 2004, 11:59am
I am 15 years old.

Oxygen worked at first, but then it stopped working.

As for preventatives:
I have done Prendisone/Verapamil, then Amerge/Amitriptyline and other medicines to lower serotonin...The first treatment helped more than the second...then we went to homeopathy/accupuncture/chiropracter/ and even as far as these crazy european healers who claim to have seen ghosts.

Now we have found a new doctor who supposedly is one of the premier CH doctors in New England, who wants me to take Synthroid and now Verapamil, except at a higher dose than before (I now take 480mg a day..the first time it was much lower) I believe this treatment has helped the most although it has barely helped at all.

I'm sick and tired of all these "doctors" who claim to be miracle workers but can't do a thing for me. I know there are more medications out there from just looking at the survey.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Dec 30th, 2004, 12:08pm
Lithium works pretty well along with the verapamil. I haven't heard of Synthroid. I'm sorry you're suffering with this so young, sweetie. My first episode was at age 16. Does your mom know you are looking at this site? Maybe she should have a look as well. There is no cure, but it can be treated and make your life a little more livable. Pain free wishes to you, hun.  [smiley=hug.gif]
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by E-Double on Dec 30th, 2004, 12:27pm
Ok my young friend........

Disregard my wise-guy remarks!!!

Bring your folks to this website and or.......
http://www.headachedrugs.com/archives/preventivemeds.html

http://www.jefferson.edu/headache/home/index.cfm

http://www.headachecare.com/cluster.htm

http://www.future-drugs.com/doi/abs/10.1586/14737175.2.3.295?prevSearch=authorsfield%3A%28Rozen%2CTD%29

http://www.chhelp.org/

Plenty of other sites and info out there....

I wish you plenty of luck in your battle and the truest support!!!

Best to you and hang in there!

Eric
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Jan 2nd, 2005, 2:06am

on 12/29/04 at 15:19:36, nani wrote:
Just curious...are you gettin' a kick back from the drug companies?
That's the typical replay of someone who gets medical "knowledge" form weekly women's magazines, insults instead of sensible arguments.

Floridian, I don't remember to have mentioned teas, but without a doubt, the ancient Chinese pharmaceutics have a lot of useful stuff. But I think it would be about time to investigate them with modern chemical methods, to clean them up of archaic superstitions, like the Chinese version of Viagra, that is responsible for the near extinction of Rhinos and Chinese Tigers.

Nobody has even attempted rebut my reasoning why nature should have wasted millions of years in developing an intricate system of meridians and mystical chi, that all the time was of no use, until a few hundreds years ago some crafty needle artist learned to make it into money.

(One fact about acupuncture that, IMHO is especially disturbing, is that several schools with very different approaches exist. Also, the inability of one acupuncturist to pass on his needle points to 'cure' CH (or anything else for that matter) to a colleague, indicates to me that any results claimed are purely fortuitous, cure of a psychosomatic disease or simply an effect of the natural healing abilities of the body.)


Quote:
the meridians and acupuncture points can be measured using electrical conductivity/resistance of the skin.
I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by

Quote:
The resistances of the LSRP on these two major vessels, including 14 CV points and 17 GV points of six rats were experimentally determined to be in the ranges of 179.4 ± 41.2 KOhm and 152.5 ± 32.2 KOhm, respectively.
Someone who measures a skin resistance to 4 digits accuracy (0.05%) and then gives an error margin of 23% (this time only with a 3 digit accuracy) does IMHO only prove that he has not the slightest idea of interpreting measuring data, he only tries to make an impession with his 'exact' results. Therefore, his results are nothing but useless.    

The link given to 'Gerhard Litscher at the University of Graz' only shows that he is an assiduous publicist, but does not give any indication of the quality of his ~50 publications. A peer review on his researches would be more helpful.


Quote:
If you do go the acupuncture/acupressure route, print this article and take it to the person who does your treatments: http://tinyurl.com/3u67j
How should I trust a doctor of osteopathy (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html) who "cured" ONE CH? patient, and who's web site contains gems like

Quote:
Cluster headaches are often seen in conventional medicine.
...the headaches commonly begin in the 3rd or 4th decade of life.
Some of the abortive therapies include ..., non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, .., and corticosteroids
Results: The patient was able to discontinue all her medications and experienced a cluster headache-free interval of 8 months. The headaches recur sporadically, but respond to treatment with acupuncture and rofecoxib (sic!).
Conclusions: Acupuncture can be used to provide sustained relief from cluster headaches and to stimulate adrenal cortisol to aid in discontinuing corticosteroids.
I've heard of "a cluster headache-free interval of 8 months" occurring spontaneously.  ::)  ::)  ::)


So, I'm still waiting for someone to counter my arguments, of the improbability of evolution developing meridians and chi, instead of hear-say "evidence" (or plain insults) as a proof.

PFNADs, Ueli                 [smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Jan 2nd, 2005, 12:32pm

Quote:
That's the typical replay of someone who gets medical "knowledge" form weekly women's magazines


Hmmm.... that's quite an assumption you're making. Just so you know I have no interest in verbally sparring with a long winded know it all. One thing I have found to be extremely important in life...having an open mind. It's a good thing others have felt this way throughout history...your argument might still be based on whether leeches are the best CH treatment or not.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by floridian on Jan 3rd, 2005, 10:25am

Quote:
Floridian, I don't remember to have mentioned teas, but without a doubt, the ancient Chinese pharmaceutics have a lot of useful stuff. But I think it would be about time to investigate them with modern chemical methods, to clean them up of archaic superstitions, like the Chinese version of Viagra, that is responsible for the near extinction of Rhinos and Chinese Tigers.


Your right - you didn't mention the teas,  the original poster mentioned them.  I agree that it should be investigated with modern methods, and there are thousands of articles in the research on topics like the various biochemical effects of ginseng (the original Chinese viagra) or the immunomodulating effects of Astragalus polysacharides. The science is not always complete, and doesn't always make it to the practicioner (as is true of western medicine), but it isn't always placebo.  I agree that demand for animal parts has had a negative effect on some species, and that is poor stewarship on par with the extinction of the whales, which began hundreds of years ago as human populations and technological ability accelerated.


Quote:
Nobody has even attempted rebut my reasoning why nature should have wasted millions of years in developing an intricate system of meridians and mystical chi, that all the time was of no use, until a few hundreds years ago some crafty needle artist learned to make it into money.


In fact, people have been pressing on sore spots instinctively since the begining of man.  Evolution did create mechanisms like referred pain, where the pain appears in an area that is not injured.  Evolution can lead to intricately beautiful mechanisms, but it is blind. Of what evolutionary significance is the the appendix, or vestigal toes?  

Even if we pretend that we have discovered everything there is to know about the anatomy of nerves, that does not explain why a person wets themselves if they are sleeping and their hand is put into warm water.  You can dismiss that as a reflex, but giving that behavior a name doesn't explain it, or its signficance to human evolution.  The behavior of the whole cannot be explained by summing its parts, and I contend that acupuncture makes use of reflexes which are as real as the wet spot on Bubba's pajamas.



Quote:
(One fact about acupuncture that, IMHO is especially disturbing, is that several schools with very different approaches exist. Also, the inability of one acupuncturist to pass on his needle points to 'cure' CH (or anything else for that matter) to a colleague, indicates to me that any results claimed are purely fortuitous, cure of a psychosomatic disease or simply an effect of the natural healing abilities of the body.)


Does it disturb you that CH is treated with migraine medicines, blood pressure medicines, nerve blocks and ablations, anti-epilepsy medicines, atypical antipsychotic medicines and plain oxygen?  One could make the case that such an inconsistent approach indicates that western medicine is disorganized and clueless. Or it could mean that the body is quite complex and there is more than one way to treat a given condition.  

While I agree that the relevance of acupuncture to CH is unproven, it is largely uninvestigated.  I would also disagree with your claim that knowledge of specific effects of acupuncture points cannot be passed on to others.  Stimulation of one particular point on the wrist has repeatedly been shown to reduce post-operative nausea - there is a large body of scientific evidence for a 'reflex' between the P6 acupuncture point and the nausea centers of the nervous system.  A portion of this evidence is in the continuation of this post:
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by floridian on Jan 3rd, 2005, 10:26am

"REVIEWERS' CONCLUSIONS: This systematic review supports the use of P6 acupoint stimulation in patients without antiemetic prophylaxis. Compared with antiemetic prophylaxis, P6 acupoint stimulation seems to reduce the risk of nausea but not vomiting." Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2004;(3):CD003281.

"Pe 6 stimulation has also been shown to be an effective antiemetic for symptoms associated with pregnancy and chemotherapy."  Schmerz. 1997 Feb 25;11(1):9-12.  [Acupuncture in anesthesia or analgesic-induced nausea and vomiting]

"In the [acupuncture] treatment group, the incidence of vomiting was significantly less (22% for the K-D2 group and 26% for the P6 group) than in the control group (56.7%) at 24 h after surgery (P < 0.001)."  Anesth Analg. 2002 Oct;95(4):1103-7.  Capsicum plaster at the korean hand acupuncture point reduces postoperative nausea and vomiting after abdominal hysterectomy.  

"CONCLUSION: In children, P6 acupoint injections are as effective as droperidol in controlling early postoperative nausea and vomiting."  Anesthesiology. 2002 Aug;97(2):359-66.      P6 acupoint injections are as effective as droperidol in controlling early postoperative nausea and vomiting in children.

"Acupuncture appeared to ameliorate postoperative nausea and vomiting and might be useful elsewhere"
Clin Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2004 Nov;2(11):957-67.          Complementary and alternative medicine in gastroenterology: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

"The efficacy of P6 acupuncture for PONV prevention is similar to commonly used pharmacotherapies. Its appropriate role in prevention and treatment of PONV requires further study. "  Anesthesiology. 2002 Feb;96(2):300-5.  Electroacupuncture prophylaxis of postoperative nausea and vomiting following pediatric tonsillectomy with or without adenoidectomy.

"A significant difference was found in the number of patients who vomited and the total number of the emetic episodes when comparing the two treatment groups with the placebo group (p < 0.0001)."  Anaesthesia. 2001 Oct;56(10):927-32.  Acupuncture versus ondansetron in the prevention of postoperative vomiting. A study of children undergoing dental surgery.

"CONCLUSION: Preoperative insertion of intradermal needles reduces postoperative pain, the analgesic requirement, and opioid-related side effects after both upper and lower abdominal surgery. Acupuncture analgesia also reduces the activation of the sympathoadrenal system that normally accompanies surgery."  Anesthesiology. 2001 Aug;95(2):349-56. Preoperative intradermal acupuncture reduces postoperative pain, nausea and vomiting, analgesic requirement, and sympathoadrenal responses.


"This systematic review showed that nonpharmacologic techniques [acupuncture, electroacupuncture, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, acupoint stimulation, and acupressure.] were equivalent to commonly used antiemetic drugs in preventing vomiting after surgery. Nonpharmacologic techniques were more effective than placebo in preventing nausea and vomiting within 6 h of surgery in adults, but there was no benefit in children."   Anesth Analg. 1999 Jun;88(6):1362-9.   The use of nonpharmacologic techniques to prevent postoperative nausea and vomiting: a meta-analysis.

"CONCLUSION: In patients undergoing brief gynaecological surgery, placebo effect of acupressure decreased nausea after 24 h but vomiting and need of rescue antiemetics was reduced only by acupressure with the correct P6 point stimulation."   Acta Anaesthesiol     Effect and placebo effect of acupressure (P6) on nausea and vomiting after outpatient gynaecological surgery.

"In the laser stimulation group, the incidence of vomiting was significantly lower (25%) than that in the [double-blind] placebo group (85%)"   Br J Anaesth. 1998 Oct;81(4):529-32.   Laser stimulation of acupuncture point P6 reduces postoperative vomiting in children undergoing strabismus surgery.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Jan 4th, 2005, 1:27am
Foreword for Nani: Do not read this post. It contains some long winded arguments, and therefore, it's not suitable for folks with such an open mind that most of the brains fell out. Keep your picking on me to the general board, and leave this board to people who can develop trains of thought that are longer than what can be written on a lapel button.


Floridian, I don't agree with your argumentation on evolution:

Quote:
Evolution can lead to intricately beautiful mechanisms, but it is blind. Of what evolutionary significance is the appendix, or vestigal toes?
Evolution is branching out and adapting to needs of a new niche in the environment. Quite a bit of evolutional history is repeated during development a foetus. As an example, in the early stages the human foetus has 5 slits on each side of the head, reminiscent of the gills of fishes. The first vertebrate animals had 5 digits on each extremity, for this reason or that, probably by pure chance. This number of fingers/toes has been retained by all vertebrate up to now. For some animals, like the horse, it was advantageous to walk/run on a single toe, so this one increased in size while the other 4 shriveled to insignificance. On one time during evolution the precursor of our appendix had some useful function too, the same as the coccyx. So, vestigal toes, appendix and coccyx are not a dead-end of evolution taking a wrong turn, but the remains of features no longer useful. It hurts like hell if you slip on ice and knock you coccyx. But the evolutionary pressure is not strong enough to eliminate this useless appendage completely (especially as there is hardly any ice in the African savanna). Same for vestigal toes and appendix, not enough evolutionary pressure.

Our nerve system is such a complex contraption that it can not be modelled by all the computers in the world together. Therefore, it's not surprising that it is not debugged completely. As an example, it can only identify one source of pain at a time, the nearest one to the brain (hence the advice 'to clench one's teeth' and not be a wimp). Our visual system, that serves us well for every day situations, can be fooled by craftily designed optical illusions. I put the Bubba effect in the same corner as optical illusions, something with just not enough pressure to warrant a special evolutionary effort.

Now, the system of meridians and chi is comparable to the complexity of our blood circulation system. And yet, there was no benefit from it until someone, after millions of years of development, discovered chi and found a way of its manipulation. The very nature of chi escapes me. It's akin to the 'soul', either you believe in it, if indoctrination could get a foothold, or you relegate it to the realm of the unenlightened dark ages.


Quote:
Does it disturb you that CH is treated with migraine medicines, blood pressure medicines, nerve blocks and ablations, anti-epilepsy medicines, atypical antipsychotic medicines and plain oxygen?
No. As we can't treat (yet) the cause of CH, we must rely on fighting the symptoms. We can try to break the feedback loop by constricting the vessels with Imitrex or oxygen; we prevent the vessels from expanding with verapamil. Anti-epilepsy and antipsychotic medicines try to limit the rapid fluctuations of the many neurotransmitters that get active during a cluster attack. But the different schools of acupuncture are more like the differences between Roman Catholics and Calvinists.

But that said, I don't want to deter anybody from trying acupuncture. I merely give a warning that they might waste time with an unproven method, suffering needless pain while delaying proven remedies.


PFNADs, Ueli                 [smiley=smokin.gif]


(Nani, STFU, you're playing in a much inferior league)
 
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Jan 4th, 2005, 7:02am
For Ueli.

Then start a new thread. The author of this one in 15 for Christs sake.

Your highly intellectual dialogue with Floridian probably wont help him much.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by cray on Jan 4th, 2005, 7:43am
Well said Don. If i were michael,s family reading those stats ireckon i,d go east also.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Jan 4th, 2005, 11:14am
For Don.

Thanks, good advice from the master of hijacking.  :o
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Jan 4th, 2005, 11:38am
Hmmm...didn't we get this thread back on track once before by pointing out the age of the poster? I think it's our job to write to the reader...and actually answer the questions posed. A simple..."I would" or "I wouldn't" with a brief explanation would suffice.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Jan 4th, 2005, 11:58am

Quote:
Thanks, good advice from the master of hijacking


Yeah I'm pretty good at that but not from a 15 year old kid looking for help.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Jan 4th, 2005, 9:26pm
STFU Nani and Don, you canting hypocrites!

But before you do, Don, teach me how look into the future, how to know that a poster is going to reveal his age a day later and what it will be.

All I did was to point out some inconsistencies in the original post and issue a warning against jumping on the "alternative" bandwagon.

Then came Nani who gave the thread a vicious twist. As she is obviously not able to follow an argument longer than two sentences, she resorted to insulting me, blaming me of corruption.

About 20 posts later, when the thread had long ago gone astray, I answered some of Floridian's question, something some dumbasses apparently couldn't follow.

Duh...
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Jan 4th, 2005, 9:50pm
Your a real happy old fella arent you?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Jan 4th, 2005, 10:57pm
Sending vibes and positive energy....
I think I'll light a candle and swing a crystal over it chanting for inner peace for you...
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Kevin_M on Jan 4th, 2005, 11:26pm

on 12/30/04 at 11:59:49, MichaelEaston wrote:
and now Verapamil, except at a higher dose than before (I now take 480mg a day..the first time it was much lower) I believe this treatment has helped the most although it has barely helped at all.


Michael,

I've been through similar preventatives with the same result as you, none.  Then... the verapil, 360mg then to 480mg, no significant difference.  Ok, nothing to lose, 600mg verapamil.  BINGO.  Big difference, for the first time.  
 The last eight episodes of "other experiments" in eight years, with the O2 and trex always ready and used many multiple times daily each; I thought that is how it is always been and going to be
  It could happen, there's that possibility out there.  Last episode, I was ready to say verapamil didn't work for me when the nine month cycle ended on it's own, the whole time unrelenting.  This cycle, it's different now, for the first time.  This is just an example.



Kevin M
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Mr. Happy on Jan 4th, 2005, 11:27pm
Asian Medicine, not Chinese Medicine, Asian Medicine. Get with the politically correct program, folks.

Nay vote here on accupuncture. Was referred to a "teacher" of the art. Three months, and $800 later, I was no better, even tho it was only supposed to take 4 weeks and $100.
My "Chi" problem was supposed to be located at C1-C2. The neurosurgeon whittled some bone out of the way on C4-C5, and did a nerve decompression on the elbow. Good to go.
Not to hard deciding who was right.

Costly lesson. Ain't discussing filthy chiro's,
RJ
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by calebgg on Jan 5th, 2005, 8:08am
I tried accupuncture in 1999 - it was for my second bout of CH. At that point, the doctor I was going to had never heard of CH. So, I thought "How about accupuncture" since he couldn't come up with any meds. I went. Since I had to schedule appointments, it obviously could not be of use during an attack. However, I do feel like the once weekly experiment was relaxing, and helped relieve stress. The headaches stopped coming everyday, and eventually ended. I do not know (or feel) that there was a direct connection. I feel like I simply happened to start the accupuncture at the time that my episode was winding down. That said, it was relaxing and I did enjoy it.
--calebgg
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by iJun G4 on Jan 7th, 2005, 11:27pm
I spend less time here by virtue of Chinese Medicine (acupuncture & Chinese herbs) compared to many of the guys who hang around this site on a permanent basis.

It's the same for anyone who has success Chinese Medicine; there's not much reason to have to come back here to voice their opinion.  

I always find it odd that acupuncture in particular is rejected--even by those who are influential in the CH community--despite the undeniable fact that it does work for at least some people.  

Most people who try acupuncture and don't see total improvement within 24 hrs assume acupuncture doesn't work.  Since when are Western doctors and treatments 100% effective?  If we used *that* standard, there are certainly all sorts of doctors (both GP and the so-called HA specialists) who misdiagnose CH as wrong types of HA, and even with a correct CH diagnosis, they prescribe drugs that are either mostly or totally ineffective.  Are all docs quacks because of this?  Are all medications useless just because some don't work?  

Can you say "over-generalization error"?

I use both Western and Chinese Medicine, btw.  Imitrex and oxygen are fine for aborting.  But it's clearly only the Chinese Medicine which manages to reduce the frequency and severity of the attacks within a cycle, and also manages to prolong the HA-free period between cycles.  That's a fundamental improvement.

If Western medical knowledge is so great that the understanding of CH is superior to Chinese Medicine, then why the heck hasn't any drug company found a perfect, synthesized cure for CH already?  

What about shroom therapy, which seems much more effective compared to synthesized drugs for preventative.  Besides the fact that they happen to be illegal now, shroom therapy seems awfully similar to Chinese herbal medicine in methodology.  Come to think of it, why are natural remedies so marginalized and kept illegal?  Could it be because drug companies only want to sell what's made in the lab, and nothing natural could possibly be superior to a man-made drug with all of its ill side-effects?

Even the effectiveness of many Western drugs and treatments are only empirical test data of things that happened to work, and researchers can then make a best-guess at what the underlying mechanism could be.  

Being an ancient form of medicine, Chinese Medicine doesn't pretend it can explain its effectiveness in modern scientific terms.  But at least it is surprisingly consistent within its own terminology at a level which far surpasses the constant guessing game found in Western medicine.  In the end--who cares, as long as it works!

Those of you out there who reject Chinese Medicine without really trying it or just happened to find an acupuncturist with insufficient knowledge or technique (never happens with docs, neuros, and pharmacists, right?) do not have the right to say universally that Chinese Medicine does not work for CH, because there are clearly people out there like me who have found this to be highly effective.  You have to do your homework and find a good acupuncturist, just like finding a good neuro.  You have to find the right words to communicate so the acunpuncturist can lead you to an effective treatment, just like with any doctor.  But the simplistic and closed-minded blanket negative statements about Chinese Medicine does a huge, huge disservice to the community of CH sufferers who might otherwise likely find a highly effective treatment for themselves.  

Anyway, I'm logging out after this; my cycles are cake compared to what they were before I started acupuncture.  I don't have much need to hang around here any more.  Seems obvious to me that acupuncture and shrooms are just about the only ways to fundamentally improve the CH condition, to the point where the word "cure" might even be applicable in the long-run.  Acupuncture is no magic mushroom, but it is legal.  You owe it to yourself to find a way to make acupuncture work for you.  It's no harder than finding a good neuro.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by BobG on Jan 8th, 2005, 1:21am

on 01/07/05 at 23:27:25, iJun G4 wrote:
I spend less time here by virtue of Chinese Medicine (acupuncture & Chinese herbs) compared to many of the guys who hang around this site on a permanent basis.
Hang around? What the fuck do you mean by that? It sounds as if you inferring that the "guys" are just a bunch of losers with nothing better to do. The ones that are here regularly are here for a reason. A big reason. To help others that are suffering. They are not here to spout off about some fuckin’ Chinaman sticking needles in them and then claiming it will cure clusters.

It's the same for anyone who has success Chinese Medicine; there's not much reason to have to come back here to voice their opinion.  
If there is no reason to come here and voice an opinion then why the fuck are you here running your big mouth?

If Western medical knowledge is so great that the understanding of CH is superior to Chinese Medicine, then why the heck hasn't any drug company found a perfect, synthesized cure for CH already?  One word, money.
It's the way the capitalist system works, dumb ass. Do the Chinese miracle workers give away their services for free?

Anyway, I'm logging out after this; I don't have much need to hang around here any more.  

And we don't have any need for you to hang around here any more.
Now please do as you said you would.........and LOG OUT! as$hole.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Jan 8th, 2005, 9:49pm

Quote:
Anyway, I'm logging out after this; my cycles are cake compared to what they were before I started acupuncture.


Didn't know sinus headaches came in cyles. HMMM.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Kevin_M on Jan 8th, 2005, 10:57pm

on 01/07/05 at 23:27:25, iJun G4 wrote:
It's the same for anyone who has success Chinese Medicine;
I always find it odd that acupuncture in particular is rejected--
--despite the undeniable fact that it does work for at least some people.
I was looking for some facts with statistics in your post concerning this, but they seem to be not here.  So far, its seems to be just the same two or three people making testaments, or perhaps simply plying their practice.


Quote:
even with a correct CH diagnosis, they prescribe drugs that are either mostly or totally ineffective.
 Let me explain this gem with your own words

Quote:
Can you say "over-generalization error"?



Quote:
I use both Western and Chinese Medicine, btw.  Imitrex and oxygen are fine for aborting.
 I see.  So picking and choosing what works from Western medicine is ok when the going gets rough.  And I'm sure it was your acupunturist who introduced you to oxygen too, huh?




Quote:
Being an ancient form of medicine, Chinese Medicine doesn't pretend it can explain its effectiveness in modern scientific terms.  But at least it is surprisingly consistent within its own terminology at a level which far surpasses the constant guessing game found in Western medicine.
I guess this explains the Imitrex use? 



Quote:
the simplistic and closed-minded blanket negative statements about Chinese Medicine...

I see a close-minded blanket of negative statements about Western medicine.



Quote:
anyway, I'm logging out after this;

I see this statement is as true as the rest of your post.  Still here.   ;;D



Kevin M
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Jan 9th, 2005, 1:42am
This iJun guy is so eloquent in defending this ancient "art", that he surely could explain (with the same good "reasons" and "evidence" ) why we still should stick to a flat earth view (at least 10000 years old) and discard modern devices, from the astrolabe to satellite navigation, because they rely on erroneous foundations.  

Here's an old outpouring of the same guy, from a time when he hadn't yet tried acupuncture:

on 06/17/03 at 10:49:50, ijunG4 wrote:
...First of all, acupuncture depends heavily on the correct knowledge of which "points" to use for a particular ailment.  If the acupuncturist has the wrong knowledge or assumptions about treating CH, this will not work.  

Second of all, even if the correct points are known to the acupuncturist, it does not mean that the needles will be successfully applied to the exact location needed.  It's not like these points are marked with a big "X" on our bodies, and the points will vary from individual to individual.  So the execution of the knowledge is important also.
...
If you try acupuncture and it does not work the first time, don't write off acupuncture itself; perhaps let the acupuncturist know, or try a different acupuncturist. ...
In a nutshell: Acupuncture is a cut and try method. If you don't get the desired results within a few weeks try another needle artist, until one trial of the favored treatment coincides with the natural end of a CH cycle, then shout SUCCESS!
Sorry, but I rather rely in proven, western treatments. Otherwise I would be trying the 70th acupuncturist, and would have suffered in the 6 years I'm chronic about 6570 Kip#10's. Thanks to western medications the number of #10's in 6 years was ... drum roll ... zero.

BTW, did you notice that iJun's post is in the true spirit of a snake oil pedlar: Lots of hints and hidden accusations towards the opposition, without any proofs, as usual. Lots of unsubstantiated claims for his side, and of course making out of one (fortuitous) result a statistic of 100% success. ::)


BTW2, iJun, on 07/01/03 (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=medsarchive2003;action=display;num=1056987314;start=13#13), you wrote an equally frenetic praise on cranio sacral therapy. Did this give you the same good results as acupuncture?
Ueli                 [smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by vig on Jan 10th, 2005, 11:51am
pretty good detective work there Ueli.
danke
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by CC2004 on Jan 10th, 2005, 4:34pm
what about poor young Michael - does anyone know???
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Kevin_M on Jan 10th, 2005, 7:35pm
[quote author=iJun G4 link=board=meds;num=1104271237;start=25#37 date=01/07/05 at 23:27:25]


deleted, misdirected
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Jan 10th, 2005, 7:54pm
No...Michael is the 15 year old who asked the original question. I have a feeling he won't be back.  :'(

Would you come back if this was the response to your first question?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Jan 10th, 2005, 8:20pm
You dont suppose the egocentric intellectual jousting scared him off do you?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Jan 10th, 2005, 8:29pm
You think?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Kevin_M on Jan 10th, 2005, 11:42pm

on 01/10/05 at 19:54:40, nani wrote:
No...Michael is the 15 year old who asked the original question. I have a feeling he won't be back.  :'(

Would you come back if this was the response to your first question?



thank you Nani, Don.      

deleted misdirected post.


Kevin M
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by nani on Jan 10th, 2005, 11:58pm
Thanks, kevin...but your post was not the problem with this thread.  
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by BobG on Jan 11th, 2005, 1:15am
Michael, if you're reading this please let us know.

We are interested in what you have to say.

Please.
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by CC2004 on Jan 11th, 2005, 5:54am
I sent him a PM earlier, will let you know if I hear anything
CC
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Jan 17th, 2005, 12:38am
Though I have never had a deep tissue, shiatsu massage for CH, I have had shiatsu for other energy/medical problems.  I found that the deep tissue massage did unblock bad energies and the practitioner can ask you questions about what it is that you are feeling and that can tell what to focus on.  I found that the deep tissue massage was a small amount painful, but greatly increases the bloodflow and felt like I was getting oxygen around my body much more efficiently.

Tonight I had an electro-crystal therapy sesion for my clusters.  The crystals are slightly electrified and they were placed on my head.  When the person did the initial tests and diagnostics on me, he said that he noticed the spike in energy over my CH side of the head.  He said it was a dramatic reading compared to other people that do not have CH.  After he did his reading, he placed 2 electrified crystals on my head for 30 mins.  I do feel a little more balanced and alert, however I have not gone to bed yet.  I'm sure that when I go to bed, just 30 to 60 minutes after I fall asleep, I will wake up in pain.
Or at least thats how my negative mind thinks.
I plan on having an acupuncture session this week and I will let you know how it effected me if at all.
PF wishes to all.
BMonee
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by vig on Jan 17th, 2005, 8:47am
"Tonight I had an electro-crystal therapy sesion for my clusters."

ok, I wanna hear how THAT went and I hope it didn't cost too much.
good luck
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by don on Jan 17th, 2005, 1:21pm

Quote:
When the person did the initial tests and diagnostics on me, he said that he noticed the spike in energy over my CH side of the head.


Had you told him before hand which side was affected?
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Ueli on Jan 17th, 2005, 10:35pm
BMonee,
Next time you should ask for Boji stones. The Boji stones are purified by astral light and then is activated by terrestrial essences. They are a container of balanced energy and thaumaturgic (= capable of performing miracles) power. Maybe, next time you bring a pair of them with you. When they are electrified in addition, their miraculous healing power will be potentized tremendously and cause such a big bolt of energy that all fuses will blow in the vicinity and the cluster demon is exorcized right back to hell, where he belongs to.

BTW, you can get a pair of Boji Stones at ebay, for a few $$ only.

I hope the unblocked bad energies leave your body and do not cause another health problem

Ueli                 [smiley=yikes.gif]
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by Marc on Jan 18th, 2005, 12:35am
Sorry Ueli, but I must take exception to your Boji stone advice.

It is well known that they must first be dipped in Emu oil and applied while wearing a TFH and vibrating glasses. For maximum effect, flatulent Peruvian butterfly's should be utilized with a non re-breather mask.

Respectfully,
Marc
Title: Re: Chinese Medicine
Post by floridian on Jan 18th, 2005, 12:18pm
Yo, MoneeMan,

you need calcium/magnesium crystals.  Each crystal unit is perfectly balanced in terms of the electric charge. Taking them internally breaks up the crystals, but they reconstitute within the body where they are needed.  They neutralize the harmful ferro-magnetic forces from Iron, Manganese, etc that can cause neurological disease.

So take a calcium/magnesium supplement.


Quote:
Med Hypotheses. 2004;63(5):793-809.      

   Elevated levels of ferrimagnetic metals in foodchains supporting the Guam cluster of neurodegeneration: do metal nucleated crystal contaminents evoke magnetic fields that initiate the progressive pathogenesis of neurodegeneration?

   Purdey M.

   High Barn Farm, Elworthy, Taunton, Somerset TA4 3PX, UK. tsepurdey@aol.com

   Elevated levels of aluminium (Al), strontium (Sr), barium (Ba), iron (Fe), manganese (Mn) cations - combined with deficiencies of magnesium (Mg)/calcium (Ca) - have been observed in the foodchains that traditionally support the Chamorro populations affected by high incidence clusters of Alzheimer (AD), Parkinson-like (PD), motor neurone diseases and multiple sclerosis on the island of Guam. Soils drawn from the cluster region demonstrated an excessive fivefold increase in 'magnetic susceptibility' readings in relation to soils from disease free adjoining regions. A multifactorial aetiological hypothesis is proposed that pivots upon the combined exposure to high levels of natural/industrial sources of ferrimagnetic/ferroelectric compounds incorporating Al, Fe, Mn, Sr, Ba (e.g., via yam/seafood consumption or exposure to world war 2 (WW2) munitions) and to low levels of Mg/Ca in all S. Pacific locations where these clusters of neurodegenerative disease have simultaneously erupted. Once gut/blood brain barrier permeability is impaired, the increased uptake of Al, Fe, Sr, Ba, or Mn into the Mg/Ca depleted brain leads to rogue metal substitutions at the Mg/Ca vacated binding domains on various enzyme/proteoglycan groups, causing a broad ranging disruption in Mg/Ca dependent systems - such as the glutamine synthetase which prevents the accumulation of neurotoxic glutamate. The rogue metals chelate sulphate, disrupting sulphated-proteoglycan mediated inhibition of crystal proliferation, as well as its regulation of the Fibroblast growth factor receptor complex which disturbs the molecular conformation of those receptors and their regulation of transphosphorylation between intracellular kinase domains; ultimately collapsing proteoglycan mediated cell-cell signalling pathways which maintain the growth and structural integrity of the neuronal networks. The depression of Mg/Ca dependent systems in conjunction with the progressive ferrimagnetisation of the CNS due to an overload of rogue ferroelectric/ferrimagnetic metal contaminants, enables 'seeding' of metal-protein crystalline arrays that can proliferate in the proteoglycan depleted brain. The resulting magnetic field emissions initiate a free radical mediated progressive pathogenesis of neurodegeneration. The co-clustering of these various types of disease in select geographical pockets around the world suggests that all of these conditions share a common early life exposure to ferromagnetic metal nucleating agents in their multifactorial aetiology. Factors such as individual genetics, the species of metal involved, etc., dictate which specific class of disease will emerge as a delayed neurotoxic response to these environmental insults.


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