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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2004 >> Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next stop
        
(Message started by: mynm156 on Dec 21^st, 2004, 6:36pm)

Title: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next stop
Post by mynm156 on Dec 21^st, 2004, 6:36pm

Damn!

I am just about ready to SCREAM! However, I will ask anyway. Has anyone tried acupuncture? How about pain clinics? I asked what that might involve and I was told combination of manipulation, acupuncture and pain meds. Sounds like crap to me.

mynm156

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by nani on Dec 21^st, 2004, 6:38pm

Accupuncture didn't do a damn thing for the CH, don't know about a pain clinic. Can ya get a different neuro? It does not appear that you are satisfied with this one.

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by don on Dec 21^st, 2004, 7:50pm

Acupuncture?

Find a new neuro.

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by pubgirl on Dec 21^st, 2004, 8:19pm

Don't know what yours are like over there, but here pain clinics specialise in the treatment of pain with variously increasing strength of painkillers (useless for CH) and "Pain management techniques" such as hynotherapy, psychotherapy and TENs machines, acupuncture etc.

Don't mean to be a cynic, but ours know diddly squat about what causes and relieves the pain of CH, and fail to understand that the level of pain we suffer is bugger all to do with "how we deal with it", it is the worst fucking pain they'll ever come across

I'll shut up now, but you get the ghist of what I think about how useful pain clinics are for CH

and don't even get me started on acupuncture :-X

Wendy

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by Filbert on Dec 21^st, 2004, 8:24pm

mynm
You're right and everybody else who has responded to your post is right as well. It's like a broken pencil-pointless!

Filbert.

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by vig on Dec 21^st, 2004, 8:47pm

gotta agree.... that would be a crap.

what's after that? a pyramid?

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by bobbio56 on Dec 21^st, 2004, 10:28pm

Tried acupunture. The guy was a little prick, and I was on pins and needles the whole time..

Seriously, did try for 5 sessions. When I quit he thought I was lying about getting no relief. Apparently I broke his undefeated string. Or he was going to miss my insurance.

Good neuro only !!! PFD

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by heprat on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 8:56am

My neuro sent me to a pain management clinic as well. It boiled down to nothing more than a second opinion. The doc basically said...well seems like the topomax isn't working lets try verapamil. Wow...that was $40 well spent....could have done that with the neuro over the phone. ::)
I think if I had bad back pain or leg pain I'd go back. I'm beginning to think these doctors haven't a clue and just throw everything in the book at it until it goes away...then they take credit for it.
"So...last time the 600 ml of monkey piss 4 times a day seemed to end the cycle...lets try that again but throw in some rhino dung tablets at night to see if that helps with your night attacks".
Personnally I doubt the acupunture would work for me...I think the success is partly mental an if you don't believe it won't work no matter what.

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by floridian on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 10:34am

Here's the only research I am aware of. Acupuncture improved enkephalin levels (a natural painkiller) but didn't stop or reduce the headaches:

Quote:

Headache. 1989 Sep;29(8):494-7.

Low CSF met-enkephalin levels in cluster headache are elevated by acupuncture.

Hardebo JE, Ekman R, Eriksson M.

Significantly lower met-enkephalin levels were found in CSF from cluster headache sufferers as compared to age-matched healthy volunteers, whereas it was not possible to demonstrate any clear-cut difference for beta-endorphin. CSF opioid levels may rise following manual or electroacupuncture. It was studied whether traditional Chinese (manual) acupuncture affected CSF levels of met-enkephalin or beta-endorphin in these patients, and to what extent this treatment would be beneficial for the headache. A significant rise in lumbar CSF met-enkephalin levels was found, whereas no clear change in beta-endorphin levels was obtained. The treatment was, however, of little value in preventing the headache.

One of the problems with 'acupuncture' is that it isn't one thing. Imagine if all surgery were clumped together as 'surgery.' The first 10 surgical procedures on clusterheads fail, so people conclude that surgery is useless. Until a new surgical procedure is found that does help.

In the past few months I've been doing acupuncture for hypertension/anxiety/psoriasis. The first person I went to was worthless - three sessions and I felt nothing. I switched, and with the new person, saw results immediately. The first session had a 3 or 4 beer effect on me - the endorphins were flowing.

Most people here haven't had results with acupuncture. That's a fact. I wouldn't reccommend acupuncture as a main approach to cluster headaches. If insurance covers it and you are trying other things, then why not?

One criticism of acupuncture as practiced in the US - it is usually based on once-weekly sessions. In China, acupuncture for many conditions is every day, or 3-4 days per week. Given the acute nature of clusters, it makes more sense to give acupuncture every day. How many doctors administer a preventive or abortive once per week?? How many people take antibiotics for an infection once per week?

Here's a case study on using acupuncture for clusters. It is only one person treated 'sucessfully' and given the unpredictable nature of clusters, the improvement could be coincidence. One interesting thing about this approach is that after trying something that didn't work, they switched to acupuncture points to stimulate the production of cortisone, allowing the patient to reduce prednisone meds. Other acupuncture research has shown that some points can increase somatostatin production or change metabolic activity of the hypothalamus. Maybe someday that will be refined into a treatment that is proven.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol14_1/case1.html

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by Bill-G on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 2:28pm

on 12/21/04 at 18:36:14, mynm156 wrote:

Crap is a nice word for what it sounds like. I'm new to this but have found pain meds to be totally useless. I do go to 3 phy therapy sessions/week that help alot with the secondary headaches and persistant light sensitivity on my ch side. They don't do anything to prevent the ch or reduce intensity.

I have a rule for doctors. The initial visit is treated like they are applying for my business. If its an assembly line operation I'm gone. The doctor should be willing to listen and then ask pointed questions that demonstrate knowlege and a desire to understand what I am going through. My former GP, after hearing that 2 percocets and 4 advil chewed didn't work asked if I had tried Excedrin..ACK! The new gp knew what clusters were, asked what my symtoms were and who I was seeing for them. Fortunatly I have a good (new) neuro who immediaty started me on O2, Verapamil and an abortive med. The Verapamil dosage is being tweaked now and if the abortive either fails or gets to slow in response there is a second battle plan already in place. Got sent for an EKG,MRI and complete physical to establish a baseline and make sure the meds would be safe for me. Doing alot better now :)
That said, many here have suggested a new neurologist might be a good idea. I could't agree more!
It never hurts to get a second opinion, especialy if the first doesn't work or at least inspire a reasonable level of confidence.
[smiley=twocents.gif]

Hope you find relief

Take care
Bill

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by CC2004 on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 2:40pm

acupuncture >:( NEVER AGAIN!!! It was a last resort as tuff old bird that I am I hat needles. They were some of the most hideous experiences of my life. The chinaman I went to had never had a failure with headaches and migraine, he started in the usual places, anyway after a dozen or so goes he's sticking my temple and right into my eye socket - now that is a pain right up there! I had permanently bloodshot and black eyes, it was NASTY NASTY NASTY and didnt f***'n work!!!
Believe it or not, I seem to be having success with water water water (and magnesium) - 7 weeks into cycle began water and had 4 attack free days, then got hit 2 nights, but last night PF and Im feeling really good today (maybe the mag is kicking in) - anyway, hey, maybe its not the water or mag but you should try ANYTHING but acupuncture

stay strong
PFDANs
CC

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by CC2004 on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 2:41pm

PS - tell your neuro to get acupuncture! ;;D

CC

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by mynm156 on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 4:23pm

on 12/22/04 at 14:41:30, CC2004 wrote:

PS - tell your neuro to get acupuncture! ;;D

CC

YES !!! I LOVE IT!!!!!

MYNM156

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by EvertBoer on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 6:19pm

Before I found my current doctor (who also suffers from CH), I went to pain clinics, accu-pressure, electrical stimulation, steroid shots right in the head, etc. When I mentioned to my Neuro who I had been to, he started talking about quacks. He pretty much explained that some of those alternative methods might work for regular migraines, but as far as he was concerned, only drugs (Imitirex, etc.) and oxygen worked for CH's.

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by Isaac on Dec 28^th, 2004, 3:13am

My experience with acupuncture has been more positive than most of the posts here. For me, I usually see the acupuncturist when I think a cycle is starting. There are times when it seems to help - I usually go 2-3 times per cycle. Of course, there's no way to know for sure - it could have been my cycle ending on its own.

Two things I liked in particular about it - I've got plenty of medication for CHs, but I'd rather not have to take them. No medication involved. Second, is that I definitely would leave treatments with a sense of calm - I thought that the treatments helped me sleep better, which, obviously, can be really important for a cluster sufferer.

I certainly don't think it's anywhere close to a guarantee, but I know some people who it's helped for - my neurologist, who also sees plenty of people for CHs says that acupuncture has worked for some of his patients.

I think it's worth trying. Also, like a doctor, you should be happy with the acupuncturist you're seeing. If you don't like the office, or the way you're treated, don't go back. I would also be suspicious of any practitioner who guarantees a cure - for me it's been helpful, but, obviously, you can tell from this board that it hasn't done anything for some.

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by unsolved1 on Dec 28^th, 2004, 5:14am

Get a new neuro !!

Unsolved < Been there, done that >

Title: Re: Neuro says Acupuncture and Pain Clinic next st
Post by Karla on Dec 28^th, 2004, 5:10pm

I tried acupujncuture and it did nothing for me. However, I went to a ha/pain clinic and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. The dr confirmed I had tried all the meds possible that are out there and then recomended the duragesic patch. It stopped my ch in 4 days. I have been on it for a couple of years and have a quality of life back and am looking at gooing off of disability and back to work. I think it is worth a try. I tried biofeedback, magnets, and some other things prettty far out there I thought it was only fair that i try that also. Please keep in mind that morphine and demeral do nothing for my ch but the patch does. So sometimes when you are out of options narcotics can work.