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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2004 >> Yeah, I know it isn't legal
        
(Message started by: carolynp on Jul 13^th, 2004, 12:47am)

Title: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by carolynp on Jul 13^th, 2004, 12:47am

Yeah, I know it isn't legal. And I understand if the mods need to delete this message. But I really need to know. PM me if you want.

What does Marijuana do for your pain? Worse, better, just put it off? Does it ever make a shadow less? Or delay the attack? Does it kill the beast?

My hubby is the sufferer. And he is asking the question. I just want him to have pfdan. I just want our lives back.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Flash on Jul 13^th, 2004, 7:07am

on 07/13/04 at 00:47:10, carolynp wrote:

For most people, including myself it makes the attacks more frequent and more painful. While not as much of a trigger as alcohol, the results are still pretty negative.

If you are serious about getting your lives back, and not prepared to break the law to do so, then visit here:

http://www.clusterbusters.com/

It's what you are looking for.

Flash

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by ExPat_jac on Jul 13^th, 2004, 8:26am

strange...now for me...

At times, yes, you are correct, it makes the attack longer and more painful....

But at other times.........

And herein lies the catch,,,,,

There are times (and over the years I've found) *types* or grades that KEEP ME FROM HURTING!!!!!

I've been bale to go for almost a month on end WITHOUT my head hurting ONCE when I smoke the right humm...well, I guess you'd say
"type".

So, over th years, I've been off and on about it....

There have been times in my life I've said "F^&K it" and smoked...and at times this has helped...

Other times, I've said it is not worth the effort to find smoke that didn't make them worse before I found something that made it better....

Damn...what a demon we live with huh?

I can't drink...that triggers them....

Can't risk gettin high....sometimes that triggers them, plus it's illegal....

And I HATE taking other stuff trying to make the pain go away........

:(

Jac

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by thomas on Jul 13^th, 2004, 8:29am

on 07/13/04 at 00:47:10, carolynp wrote:

Marijuana will make the pain FAR WORSE for most people. Not a good idea at all, unless you like to have ch while you are too messed up to deal with/abort the damn thing.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 10:39am

Not an issue for me! It neither triggers them nor helps them with me. Being "too messed up" to deal with a CH is also not a serious issue. Why would being more relaxed be negative, as long as it is not the weed triggering the CH? Pot does not really live up to the demonized reputation it has been given by the Government or W.R. Hurst.

And yes... quality matters! If you experiment, find good green, not brown and moldy. Avoid musty smelling stuff. Poor quality pot contains mold and THIS would be a more likely trigger.

Also... smoking it might not be the answer. Find a good recipe and cook it into butter to use in baking cookies or brownies. The drawback with this is the delayed effect. Smoking yields an almost instant effect while eating requires a couple of hours, although it is much easier on the lungs and you won't smell like a criminal.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 10:48am

Oh, yeah... keep it frozen to avoid mold and preserve the THC.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by thomas on Jul 13^th, 2004, 11:00am

on 07/13/04 at 10:39:03, Abaris wrote:

Seeing as how I only smoke "killer shit" all it takes is one or two drags to be totally fucked up.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 11:05am

Tollerance is my problem, not the quality of the herb. I have been fortunate in the 'KGB' availability area.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by floridian on Jul 13^th, 2004, 11:06am

Great if it works for you, Abaris, but an overwhelming number of people here report that it makes things worse. Individual reactions vary, so a few people might benefit, but most who have tried this route regret it. Mold could also make things worse, but there is some evidence that THC and its natural analog Anandamide are good to avoid in cycle. In the abstract below, Anandamide and related compounds increased CGRP release (emphasis is mine). CGRP goes up in when vascular headaches occur, and CGRP inhibitors are currently being investigated for blocking clusters and migraines.

Quote:

Br J Pharmacol. 2004 Apr;141(7):1118-30. Epub 2004 Mar 08.

Modulation of trigeminal sensory neuron activity by the dual cannabinoid-vanilloid agonists anandamide, N-arachidonoyl-dopamine and arachidonyl-2-chloroethylamide.

Price TJ, Patwardhan A, Akopian AN, Hargreaves KM, Flores CM.

Department of Pharmacology, The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, USA.

1. Peripheral cannabinoids have been shown to suppress nociceptive neurotransmission in a number of behavioral and neurophysiological studies. It is not known, however, whether cannabinoids exert this action through direct interactions with nociceptors in the periphery and/or if other processes are involved. To gain a better understanding of the direct actions of cannabinoid-vanilloid agonists on sensory neurons, we examined the effects of these compounds on trigeminal ganglion (TG) neurons in vitro. 2. AEA (EC(50)=11.0 microM), NADA (EC(50)=857 nM) and arachidonyl-2-chloroethylamide ACEA (EC(50)=14.0 microM) each evoked calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) release from TG neurons. The TRPV1 antagonists iodo-resiniferatoxin (I-RTX) and capsazepine (CPZ) each obtunded AEA-, NADA-, ACEA- and capsaicin (CAP)-evoked CGRP release with individually equivalent IC(50)'s for each of the compounds (I-RTX IC(50) range=2.6-4.0 nM; CPZ IC(50) range=523-1140 microM). 3. The pro-inflammatory mediator prostaglandin E(2) significantly increased the maximal effect of AEA-evoked CGRP release without altering the EC(50). AEA, ACEA and CAP stimulated cAMP accumulation in TG neurons in a calcium- and TRPV1-dependent fashion. Moreover, the protein kinase inhibitor staurosporine significantly inhibited AEA- and CAP-evoked CGRP release. 4. The pungency of AEA, NADA, ACEA and CAP in the rat eye-wipe assay was also assessed. Interestingly, when applied intraocularly, NADA or CAP each produced nocifensive responses, while AEA or ACEA did not. 5. Finally, the potential inhibitory effects of these cannabinoids on TG nociceptors were evaluated. Neither AEA nor ACEA decreased CAP-evoked CGRP release. Furthermore, neither of the cannabinoid receptor type 1 antagonists SR141716A nor AM251 had any impact on either basal or CAP-evoked CGRP release. AEA also did not inhibit 50 mM K(+)-evoked CGRP release and did not influence bradykinin-stimulated inositol phosphate accumulation. 6. We conclude that the major action of AEA, NADA and ACEA on TG neurons is excitatory, while, of these, only NADA is pungent. These findings are discussed in relation to our current understanding of interactions between the cannabinoid and vanilloid systems and nociceptive processing in the periphery.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 11:19am

As I stated... for me it has no effect on CH either way. It does however allow me to cope easier. It allows me to relax and stay focused during a CH. I must also state that I have a seriously high tollerance for pain. Always have. This combined with a little THC can keep me in control when my head feels like it is cracking apart.

For the past 8 months I have been aborting by drinking Red Bull. This is working so well that weed isn't used except for recreational purposes, and I like my recreation. I just hope the RB hold it's effectivness as I feel like I have a life again.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 11:58am

One other aspect we have not discussed is the lack of control in any testing. Marijuana varies greatly from species to species. So much so that even if studies are done with one control species it probably would not corrolate with marijuana bought on the street.

Difference in species is only the beginning. Curing processes can precipitate mold growth therefore altering the chemical composition. Smuggling techniques can also effect the grass. Weed that has been brought into the country in a fuel tank would not be desirable, for example.

Storage is another variable. If stored wrong it can mold (or increase it's mold content) and chemicals in the grass can degrade while others get concentrated.

What I am saying is just because one person may find relief by smoking, it would be foolish to think that the same results would be yielded by someone else without the exact marijuana to run a controlled test.

Now let's talk about brain chemistry. I am by no means any type of expert here, but I do have common sense. It tells me that brain chemistry itself varies from one person to the next.

Too many variables. These barriers could be limited if this were to be legalized and studied without the stigma of criminality. In it's current position marijuana is a crapshoot. But when you are banging your head against the wall wishing for death, gambling a little probably isn't all that bad.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Prense on Jul 13^th, 2004, 12:26pm

Abaris,

What are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

Chris

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 1:01pm

Chris,

Trying to provide my experiences along with common sense. BTW... I didn't start it.

Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing? And isn't that the point of a site like this? I don't have an agenda... if that is what you are getting at.

In any case I am not here to question anyone's reasons for what they write or why. If you don't like or understand what I babble about... don't read it. The way I see it we are all suffering enough without any fingerpointing needed to add to our misery.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Prense on Jul 13^th, 2004, 2:20pm

on 07/13/04 at 13:01:52, Abaris wrote:

There's no reason to get defensive. I was just curious at what you were trying to get across. I know you did not start the thread and the conversation about such topics in no way bothers me.

The only finger pointing is perceived... Sorry you took it in such a way.

Regards!

Chris

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Abaris on Jul 13^th, 2004, 3:08pm

Hey, I am new here... just getting my feet wet. I don't want to offend anyone. After nosing around this message board for the past couple of days I see that things can be brutal and I got defensive. When I get excited things come out of me in spurts (no pun intended) and that is the way it ended up here.

I was just corresponding in this thread and when I went back I realized that what I wrote could easily be misconstrued. So I decided to clearify. My personal choices should not used as an example to be followed. Good God would THAT be a mistake. But I am willing to be honest about some subjects that can be taboo. I don't givashit as long as someone might benefit... even a little.

Bad Brad

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Superpain on Jul 13^th, 2004, 6:14pm

Mold? [smiley=huh.gif]

Either you don't smoke enough... You're getting it several pounds at a time... Or you're growing.

I understand your point, but....

My wife does a great job of not letting it get moldy.

A bag around here has a shorter life expectancy than a 2nd Lieutenant dropped into the middle of Nam in '69... [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by ExPat_jac on Jul 13^th, 2004, 9:51pm

>> bag around here has a shorter life expectancy than a 2nd Lieutenant dropped into the middle of Nam in '69...

Ummm...does your wife know my ex???

(Just kidding)

Wow...a tpoic like this on this board sure generates some, shall we say, sharp comments?

Look...like most of you, when I hurt (and trust me, when I have my headachs...I freakin HURT) I'm ready to resort to finding a gun, so the concept of something that may be "illegal" bothers me little...hell...if on the slighest chance it will stop the pain I'd eat cat shit......

Fact of the matter is, I was a teenager/man once in my life (oh so vary long agao.....) and like most kids experimented...and guess what...at times, and with the right wed, I DIDN'T GET HEADACHS !!!!!!!!!!

And I'm one that gets them almost every freakin day....you know the ones...the ones that make you dance, curse, beat you head aginst the wall...so I know for a fact that at least for ME some varities DO WORK. Period. No ands, ifs, or buts.

Problem is, it's a crap shoot....because some varities alos trigger them or make it worse....

Like most, I did find the higher the quality, the less chance of it triggering a session...but, spending time in states like Texas ment that...often quality was low (mexican dirt weed ya know) thus there were times I just said the heck with it....

Now, while we are talking about things illegal...something I did find that worked EVERY TIME...was acid...

Problem is...who on earth can live life tripping all day??? Not me (god knows in my younger years I tried :) )

But I an honest enough to speak openly here and say that yes, there has been the time in my life when it just got so bad, the pain so unbearable that I would just disappear, drop a few hits and have a day off so to speak from the nightmare.....

Hey...what works works...

Understand, I would be the last person to say go out and do the same thing.....

Face it friends, we are all here for th same reason...I am new, having just found y'all...go out to the intro board and read my introduction to find out a little about me...I'm an ex-pat living currently in a third world country (ok, sorry I do not mean to offend Indonesians that may be reading this...understand I LOVE your country or would not be here) and as such am having a hell of a time dealing because I can not speak the language yet, the doctors here do not know what I am talking about, and the medicen that normal helps here I can't get here...plus it's hot as hell...and heat tends to make mine worse...

Oh well, thats my ramble for the day....guys lets go easy on each other here...we all are suffering, last things we need is to feel that this place will make us feel worse...if the topic offends you...go to another thread....

(if thine eyes offend thee.....)

In my case, there have been times I'm been tempted to pluck my freakin BRAIN out :)

Oh well...have a pain fre days folks!

Jac

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by carolynp on Jul 13^th, 2004, 11:41pm

Thanks for your opinions and experiences. That is what we were looking for. After the clusters this weekend we are just about ready to try anything.

And I completely understand the gun statement. After coming home one day and finding dh on the floor next to where the guns were, they were immediately removed from the house.

Thanks for the clusterbuster site. I will look into it some more.

I know that everyone here is suffering in many ways. Pain is just one of them. So on that note: Here's to a suffering free day.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Flash on Jul 14^th, 2004, 8:20am

on 07/13/04 at 21:51:01, ExPat_jac wrote:

Now, while we are talking about things illegal...something I did find that worked EVERY TIME...was acid...

Jac - not sure if you are aware, but MANY of us are currently using hallucinogenic substances to treat ourselves. Magic mushrooms are the hallucinogen of choice, and some people experience a remission of up to 2 years after a single dose.

Goto www.clusterbusters.com for more info.

This treatment is now being taken seriously, and trials are organised at a top US medical school.

Please give more details on the effects of acid on your CH. Several of us have experience of using LSD to treat CH, and any feedback would be much appreciated. We have several surveys running, and it would be useful if you could complete these.

BTW, did you post something similar to this in the guest book of this site about 6 years ago?

Flash

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by babycakes on Jul 14^th, 2004, 12:17pm

I smoke often...and it has never helped the attacks. It gives slight comfort when I'm in mild to no pain....but doesn't help the major pains at all.
Plus...I believe it speeds the heart rate...so blood moves faster.
May not be a good idea.

The slight comfort is really just how the pot helps distract my mind while in pain...but doesn't help the pain go away.

Good Luck, though.
Brian

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by ExPat_jac on Jul 15^th, 2004, 6:02am

Flash.....

You wrote [

Please give more details on the effects of acid on your CH. Several of us have experience of using LSD to treat CH, and any feedback would be much appreciated. We have several surveys running, and it would be useful if you could complete these.

BTW, did you post something similar to this in the guest book of this site about 6 years ago? ]

First, to answer the second part, I didn't, I just found the board a few days ago...and have JUST found Clusterbusters, and have been furiously reading all the info on the subject to catch me up on it....

I also answered a few of the surveys...for yes, I experience could help....

Problem is...not for me, but thats a LONG story....but maybe my info can help the rest so let me give you the quick run down...

Oh...and thanks for being open minded enough for me to be able to speak openly and not feel like everyone will think I'm some sort of druggie :)

Ok...so my my "details" as y ou put it :)

First, I am chronic, have always suffered for as long as I can remember...since I was about 9 years old...I remember once at 9 having a headach so bad I was just screaming. Numerious doctors my parents took me to could find nothing, so they figured it was just for attenion of some such and eventually just started to ignoring it when I told them I had a headach, so I just learned to live with them...see..I never knew that there was a thing called "cluster headachs" till I was in my mid-twenty when a nurolgist finally made that diagnosis.

He tried Inderal and other things, nothing worked, so I just said the heck with it and just lived with them.

When I was 19 yrs. old, I had my first acid experience. By this time, I had realized that alcohol made my headachs worse, so I never drank...and still don't...but this stuff was amazing..for once in my life I felt almost "normal" (if you could call an acid trip "normal")

I still did not connect the fact that afterwards I went a long time without a headach....

So...over time as I grew up, whenever I had the oppertunity, I would trip....

In my earily thrirtys I took a job in Rome, Italy, and was faced with finding medication I could deal with...by this time, I was pretty much a fioricet junky, having found it helped....

First thing I had to do was find the Italian equivilant for it....and found something close...but still suffered massive headachs for my first 6 months or so there...

(sorry for making this long, but this is leading somewhere)

Not being like most ex-pats or most americans, I started hanging out with the street kids and not living in the little "american village" that the other americans were living at.....

One day. one of the kids gave (rather sold me...at $50.00 a pop no less...but what the heck, I was making *good* money while there) a hit of blotter....

My god...it was like nothing I had ever had in the states....

Not the point of this story.....

For the rest of my time there....I didn't have a headach....

Being hardheaded as I was, I STILL did not make the connection....

But, in a way, I guess my body did, and I found myself "self medicating" with acid...much as I self medicate with coffee today (I'm a coffee junkie, always have been).

Over time, I started making the connection....but not fully...and would NEVER voice it...heck, everyone would think I was some sort of acid head if I tried to say I was doing cid to cut down on headachs!

After Rome, upon returning to the states, I found myself searching out the same level I had reached with that one hit...and started doiikng greater and greater doeses...tilll I finally realize it was not going to happen...and now pretty much don't do it any more...

Or rather, don't seek it out like I did at one time...

But I did research...I wanted o first find, was I killing myself droppping as much acid as I was, and in my research, low and behold, I find that the reason it was even first systhizized (*please* forgive my spelling...I switch languages/countries so much most of the time now I don't even know where I am any more) was because he was looking into headach cures :)

Anyway.....basicly it's this way....

From *my* experience, and from the way I react to things....i.e. the way I find myself automaticly self medicating with the things my body needs or things that help, such as coffee...I had kind of gotten the idea that maybe LSD had, in some way, the ability to help me....

But....

{see next p[ost..they said this was too long....}

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by ExPat_jac on Jul 15^th, 2004, 6:03am

Laws being what there were....and the general nature of haluingentic agents being what *they* are, I never really had any hope that this would be a viable method to stop my headachs...

Then....oh dear god..then I found this forum the other day....

I started reading everything I could here...tons of material...hundreds of forum postings....I quickly found the clusterbusters.com site....read it all....

My god???? Is this possible....could *small* doeses during say every three or four month intervals work?????

I'm settign right now, with my head hurting so bad I could scream.....and you're trying to tell me this may work????

Well, I know for a fact that ACID had *some* effect...just never really took it to heart....but when I trip...my sinus' run....I get a lot of the same bdy effects...but never ONCE in all my trips, no matter HOW hot I got (and acid tended to raise my body temp so strangly during the times I was doing a lot of acid, my apartment's AC was always turned down to like -15 or something...) I never had a headach......

Look...I want to discuss this more with you....

It's too late for me...long story`(no guys, don't worry, I'm not going to kill myself or anything stupid....it's just....well...a long story) ....but...dear god....if theres a way to stop this cycle....stop this pain...

Yes....how serious is the research being done on this?

Is it like the stupid medical MJ bullshit thats taking YEARS and never really getting anywhere and being used more as a political pawn?

Tell me...is the REAL research being done to REALLY allow the use of hallucinogenic substances to treat this?

Would medical science in the US (or anywhere for that matter) ever allow this?

You know, just the idea that theres hope helps.....

Anyway...my head hurts, I'm going home....

Drop me a note Flash....

ExPat_Jac

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by TBO2 on Jul 22^nd, 2004, 5:21pm

As someone with much too extensive experience with both clusters and drugs, I can say that, at least for me, certain illegal drugs such as cocaine, amphetamines, and caffeine do have pain-relieving properties for clusterheadaches. Perhaps it is because they are all inherently vaso-constrictive.

Marijuana, conversly, is a vasodilator, as is alcohol. While it may be beneficial to keep one's stress level down to reduce headaches, I don't think marijuana has any other intrinsic value to clusterheads; it may even increase the number of headaches. (but everyone is different and I am not a doctor)

- Ted

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by TBO2 on Jul 22^nd, 2004, 5:38pm

I HAVE had cluster headaches while tripping. It hurts no more or no less than while sober. It is an all-encompassing agony that tears at every conscious second, high or not. Though it has been some time since I've used LDS, muchrooms, or mescaline (peyote,) I recall no effect on the severity or frequency of my headaches.
However, since I am of chronic type, perhaps it would be more effective at breaking or delaying cycles for those of episodic type?
While it did not affect my headaches, if current research suggests differently, it may be worth a shot. If nothing else it sure is fun ;-)

Regards,
Ted

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by IndianaJohn on Jul 22^nd, 2004, 6:04pm

Never helped or hurt.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by tommyD on Jul 22^nd, 2004, 6:12pm

Quote:

Ted -

The shroom treatment doesn’t work for everyone, and there is less success for chronics. And even those using the treatment successfully sometimes report attacks during or right after the trip.

It is very common for those using the shroom treatment to have odd, unpredictable and sometimes severe attacks in the days after a dose, followed by a fading away of the cluster cycle. Chronics sometimes have to take a long series of doses to suppress the beast.

Reports of failures with the shrooms- or other indole ring hallucinogens - are important to the reserarch into the treament - more so than reports of success. Could you give us some more details on your experience with cluster attacks while tripping?

Did the attacks seem connected to taking the drug, i.e. hitting at a certain time after taking the drug? Was there any kind of disruption to your cluster schedule, attacks at odd times, skipped attacks at the usual time? Any shifts in the location of the attack?

And of course the same old question the ClustrerBusters always ask: Were you taking any conventional meds before/during/after the trip?

Anything you can recall would be helpful. And Thanks for the frank report.

-tommyD

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Redrum on Jul 23^rd, 2004, 12:27pm

For me...the ganja doesn't do anything to relieve the pain during an attack. In fact I somtetimes feel like it make things worse by slowing down my perception of time. However, I get a lot of benifit smoking after a headache. It helps me calm down and relax after spending 20-60 minutes banging my head on the floor.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by nutty2chat2003 on Jul 25^th, 2004, 9:42am

My hubby is a toker. I've tried smoking one time as an abortive and it was horrible. Strong smells tend to intensify attacts for me (wether they be good smells or not). Last night I had Bath & Body works lotion on my hands and it was terrible. So anyway, the point. The smell of the dope makes things worse for me.

As far as the relaxing effect, I need to be in control for the pacing. That is one thing that is a must. From experience with some other prescribed meds, if I can't pace, I can't deal. If I'm too tired to pace, or I'm falling over and running into things like walls, I'm worse. For me, relax is not an option unless it kills the headache.

But as others have said, if it works for you, you have my blessing.

About the cat poop, does that work? Has anyone tried it? :P

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by Ramona on Aug 23^rd, 2004, 1:40am

As for me, if anything helps ease the pain of a CH, legal or not ,I would do it!! If you are really a CH suffer you know you would do anything for some relief

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by gore2424 on Aug 24^th, 2004, 12:25am

A couple of tokes and O2 at 8 for 15 minutes takes the edge off for me everytime.

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by shani01 on Aug 25^th, 2004, 2:42pm

Hi there...Don't get me wrong, I am totally for trying anything, I have and probably will again when my episode hits next time (I think I'm nearing my end this time ;;D ::)).

My question is this...have you considered O2? It really does work. Also, where in the country do you live? I ask because if you are any where near the border, south or north, drugs are much easier to get.

Hope your hubby is doing better. I'm the sufferer and I feel horrible for my hubby. He feels totally helpless in this situation. Good luck to both of you and keep on visiting this site. It will save both of your sanity.

Shani

Title: Re: Yeah, I know it isn't legal
Post by eileen on Aug 26^th, 2004, 1:23pm

Sorry to hear about the pain but I can tell you try to get shrooms. I swear they work. This is my first time trying this and so far so good. It is still early but I have never felt better and I should be in a cycle right now. It only takes a little bit but I am a believer.