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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2004 >> from Andrew - DXM use & CH
        
(Message started by: Peppermint on Jun 24^th, 2004, 1:39am)

Title: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Peppermint on Jun 24^th, 2004, 1:39am

Hi.
I'm not in the habit of posting for other people, but since this friend is having problems getting errors posting, and asked nicely :), I'm doing a favor and posting for him.

Name: Andrew, a long time CH'er.
Email: gothremix@yahoo.com

Could you pass it on for me kid and my name and
e-mail? I'm not sure if its there server or mine. It
was in regards to DXM use and clusterheadaches but I
don't really care where it shows up.

DXM

I've dosed pretty high on this stuff, reaching the 3rd
plateau more than a few times but haven't explored it
much for the use of clusterheadaches to a great
degree. However as is always the case when you need
acid and shrooms the stock dries up so I've attempted
it during a cycle but only in low doses. My reason is
that it's not the kind of trip I want to be on and get
a CH attack! So all I have swallowed is enough for a
1st plateau level when I've felt an attack to be
coming, the demon starting to rush. And it has worked
to abort that one attack but that only and had no
effects on the cycle at all as does shrooms and lsd
which has never failed for me. Although I do feel
safer ingesting a tiny amount on Tussin in place of
those heart slammin needles, Imitrex and it gives me
that edge that I can still take a neeedle if I ever
have to(hopefully never again.)
The pain levels were also only about a 4-5 on the
scale of one to 10 at the time as well so I do not
know what it's like against a full on attack. It was
interesting how it worked though. Instead of the spine
tingle I feel with Imitrex and the sort of "release"
from pain I feel almost as if the headache is being
"disolved" or maybe "evaporated." Very hard to find
the right words to describe pain and relief but thats
the best I can describe it.
So all I can really say in favour of it is that it
might be worth trying a small amount, such as two
table spoons to see if it works for anybody else. But
to stop the cycle I'll stick to the two basics b/c I
have no desire to robotrip with a ch. That could have
psychotic potential if it failed in my opinion.

=====Andrew

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 24^th, 2004, 7:27am

How well do you know this guy to be part of his treatment plan ?

http://www.coricidin.org/

http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Peppermint on Jun 24^th, 2004, 9:01am

on 06/24/04 at 07:27:42, don wrote:

How well do you know this guy to be part of his treatment plan ?

http://www.coricidin.org/

http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/

Excuse me Don if I don't understand what you're asking. I didn't say I was part of anyone's treatment plan. Can you clarify?

If you mean pass on the links.. I can do that. Otherwise.. [smiley=huh.gif]

Edited to add content

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by floridian on Jun 24^th, 2004, 2:10pm

I wouldn't expect DXM to have full clusterbusting potential as it is different from other meds that act on the 5-ht2 serotonin receptors.

It might abort CH, or reduce the pain of an attack. There is some evidence that DXM is an analgesic, and that it works in several ways: 1) similar to other narcotics 2) by blocking NMDA-glutamate transmission of pain (possibly relevant to CH), and 3) as a dissociative like PCP and ketamine.

Itching is a common side effect, which is linked to histamine release when taking DXM - that could be a problem in clusters, where histamine is one of several inflammatory chemicals that are overproduced. Other frequent side effects of high doses of DXM include sweating, increased pulse, and hot or cold flashes. These are thing I already struggle with when the beast visits me, so I don't think I would risk taking a dose of DXM to abort.

The Dextromethorphan FAQ at the lyceaum mentions habit forming potential and nerve damage with heavy use.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 24^th, 2004, 4:07pm

What I am saying is that he is refering to a dangerous and much abused practice and that you could be associated with it.

The local detoxs and psyche units are being filled with young people swilling OTC cough syrups.

Do what you will.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Peppermint on Jun 24^th, 2004, 4:51pm

on 06/24/04 at 16:07:30, don wrote:

Don - I really shouldn't dignify this with a response, because I know where you are coming from and why, however, for the sake of all the people that don't:

FIRST of all... I never said he was using this, nor that I was a proponent of this type of med use. READ MY POST again.

This is as he said, something he read on a google search a few days ago and wanted to post here for some feedback, except he kept getting an 'error'.

Med advice/therapies/methods - Many people on here are warned about using certain things that over a prolonged period may do harm and/or are not useful for CH, warning on mixing meds, etc.

I have read enough to know thoroughly what is harmful, and what works, and what to look out for - posting for feedback doesn't mean that one is purporting a certain method.

As for treatments, you can lead a horse to water but if the damn horse is dying of thirst and instead decides to roll in it, you better damn well let him do what he pleases.

I hope your cycle is gone or winding down - PF to ya Don.

Edited for spelling & to add content

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jun 24^th, 2004, 8:01pm

I guess I'll respond although it is with reservations, for assorted reasons.

This is not a treatment option that I would recommend. First of all it's not something I have researched very much so I can't recommend it.
DXM does have some potential problems that don't exist with psilocybin IMHO. It appears though that Andrew fully understands this.
Others may not and I'm not about to write up another 40 page FAQ on DXM, at least not this year. ;-(

That said, there have been 3 reports to me about people having some varied success with DXM. Again, I haven't even brought it up and am not sure I should have this time. I'll have to check my better judgement later, I guess. One mentioned eating a couple of Sucrets.
(anyone remember the Everyone Loves Raymond episode where Mom locks up the Sucrets?? :D)

As to it's abuse....yes it is a problem. A big problem for some people. OTOH, 400,000 people die each year from obesity related problems. If you abuse twinkies...they'll kill ya.
Oxycontin is being abused, but that doesn't mean that it isn't helping millions of people resume productive lives, safely.

Name a food, a drug or an activity that isn't abused.

Just like with anything else, it's best to discuss the good and the bad so people don't just take a little info and hurt themselves by not knowing the entire picture.

Can't do that though without actually discussing the subject. I guess thats why I responded.

All I can add is this. Andrew, if psilocybin has been so successful for you, with no bad side effects, there are ways of making sure you don't have to rely upon buying unknown substances from unknown people, as I'm sure, you are aware. Knowing that, why you would begin experimenting with something else may not be wise IMHO.

PF

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 24^th, 2004, 9:43pm

Quote:

Don - I really shouldn't dignify this with a response

Then you shouldn't have.

Quote:

because I know where you are coming from and why,

That is one fucking huge assumption.

Quote:

If you abuse twinkies

I would never abuse a twinkie. I like twinkies.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Superpain on Jun 25^th, 2004, 4:16am

Dxm is a far cry from shrooms...
And I'm saying that from a pro shroom view...
None of the research, statistics or testimonials of DXM have convinced me of anything except it's very dangerous. Which it has been for years. That shit's not new... It just takes a certain number of people to die before anyone hears about it.

Never heard of anyone dyin on shrooms.... [smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 25^th, 2004, 5:00am

Quote:

It just takes a certain number of people to die before anyone hears about it

Check the stats, the numbers are there. Dont check them on some "Goth" site though.

Another case of suggesting dangerous practices when there are plenty of safe affective treatments available.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Superpain on Jun 25^th, 2004, 5:07am

No, I know they are there. They just have to be HIGH before anyone hears about it.

I knew kids 15 yrs ago getting high off that shit.

Just like GHB... Took YEARS, like 10 yrs before any storys came out about it. Shitloads of people have been fucked up by that shit before and after media recognization.

"Goth"?

Are you talking about erowid?
I don't know why you'd call that goth if that's what you're talking about, but it's the only connection that came to mind.
And actually, that's a pretty good resource for otherwise hard to find info on alot of stuff.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 25^th, 2004, 5:19am

No it wasn't Erowid. In fact I pulled the following from Erowid.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=5903

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Superpain on Jun 25^th, 2004, 5:24am

Yeah, lots of good info there.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Flash on Jun 25^th, 2004, 12:39pm

OK folks... heh heh. I know a little about this.

DXM is closely related to DMT. DMT is produced in the body by the pineal gland alongside serotonin and melatonin. Both serontonin and melatonin are also manufactured as pharmaceutical grade drugs for medical use. DMT (di-methly-triptamine) on the other hand is possibly the most powerful hallucinogen known to man...

The drug Imitrex (sumatriptan) was BASED on DMT. That's gospel - just ask someone in research at Glaxo like I did.

DXM is very similar to both DMT and Imitrex and is used as a cough suppresant in place of codiene - ironically because codiene had abuse potential. DXM is non-addictive, and even possibly counter addictive. Physically it's almost certainly better for you than Imitrex. So dismount the high horse. It's also legal.

DXM not surprisingly accoriding to our anecdotal sources does pretty much the same thing as Imitrex in that it aborts individual headaches.

Until recently I thought that DMT may be the real key to CH. The DXM feedback I have recently received makes me think that DMT would also do little more that abort individual headaches although that has still to be verified in every way shape and form.

Psilocybin and LSD which are structurally not dissimilar to all of the above are able to prevent and abort entire CH episodes.

So that's the scoop on DXM. If this dude prefers using it to Imitrex that hey it's probably much safer anyway.

Flash

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by floridian on Jun 25^th, 2004, 2:25pm

While most of the lit indicates that DXM is active on sigma, pcp and nmda nerve receptors, there is some evidence that it acts on the serotonin system (but much less info on this than the sigma, pcp and nmda).

Here's an article that suggests that DXM antagonizes nitric oxide and increases 5-ht2 activity (its not an agonist, but seems to indirectly increase it).

Quote:

Life Sci. 1999;64(26):2463-70.
Nitric oxide synthase inhibitors enhance 5-HT2 receptor-mediated behavior, the head-twitch response in mice.

Kim HS, Son YR, Kim SH.

College of Pharmacy, Chungbuk National University, Cheongju, Korea. hskim@trut.chungbuk.ac.kr

The purpose of this study was to characterize behavioral interactions between nitric oxide synthase (NOS) inhibitors and serotonergic 5-HT2 receptors. In the present study, NOS inhibitors, N(G)-nitro-L-arginine, N(G)-nitro-L-arginine methylester, N(G)-monomethyl-L-arginine, 7-nitroindazole, trifluoperazine and NO scavenger, methylene blue markedly enhanced 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT)-induced selective serotonergic behavior, the head twitch response (HTR), in mice. However NO generators, sodium nitroprusside, 3-morpholinosydnonimine and S-nitroso-N-acetylpenicillamine as well as NO precursor, L-arginine markedly inhibited 5-HT induced HTR in mice. In the previous study, it was demonstrated that the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonists markedly enhanced 5-HT-induced selective serotonergic behavior, HTR, whereas NMDA itself inhibited 5-HT-induced HTR in mice. In the present study, it was demonstrated that the inhibition by a NMDA receptor agonist, NMDA of 5-HT-induced HTR was reversed by the treatment with NOS inhibitors, N(G)-nitro-L-arginine and N(G)-nitro-L-arginine methylester. The suppressive action by a NO generator, S-nitroso-N-acetylpenicillamine of 5-HT-induced HTR was also reversed by the treatment with NMDA receptor antagonists, MK-801 and dextromethorphan. These results have shown that the NO system is located down stream of NMDA receptors involved in modulation of 5-HT2-mediated HTR. Therefore, the enhanced effects of NOS inhibitors on 5-HT-induced HTR support experimental evidence for the NO/5-HT2 as well as NMDA/5-HT2 receptor interactions indicating that NO plays an important role in the glutamatergic modulation of the serotonergic function at the 5-HT2 receptor.

This one suggests that DXM is anti-5ht1 (anti triptan),

Quote:

Neuropharmacology. 2000 Sep;39(12):2302-8.
Inhibition of the 5-HT(1A) receptor-mediated inwardly rectifying K(+) current by dextromethorphan in rat dorsal raphe neurones.

Ishibashi H, Kuwano K, Takahama K.

Department of Hygienic Chemistry, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kumamoto University, 5-1 Oe-Honmachi, 862-0973, Kumamoto, Japan.

The effect of dextromethorphan (DM) on the inwardly rectifying K(+) currents mediated by 5-HT(1A) receptors in acutely dissociated dorsal raphe (DR) neurones of rats was studied using nystatin-perforated patch and conventional whole-cell patch recording configurations under voltage-clamp conditions. DM rapidly and reversibly inhibited the K(+) currents induced by 10(-7) M 5-HT in a concentration-dependent manner with a half-maximum inhibitory concentration of 1.43 x 10(-5) M. The inhibitory effect of DM was neither voltage- nor use-dependent. DM caused a suppression of the maximum response of the 5-HT concentration-response curve, thus suggesting a non-competitive type of inhibition. In neurones perfused intracellularly with a pipette-solution containing the nonhydrolyzable GTP analog GTPgammaS, 5-HT activated K(+) currents in an irreversible manner. DM suppressed the current irreversibly activated by intracellular GTPgammaS even in the absence of the agonist. DM also inhibited the inwardly rectifying K(+) currents regulated by alpha(2)-adrenoceptors in freshly isolated rat locus coeruleus neurones. These results suggest that DM may inhibit the G-protein coupled inwardly rectifying K(+) channels, but not the neurotransmitter receptors, in the central nervous system.

Still, lots of side effects that I am prone to (Erowid adds panic attack to the list). To each their own.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 26^th, 2004, 12:46am

Quote:

So dismount the high horse

I'll tell ya what pal. When you have treated 1/100 as many kids as I have in the detoxs and theraputic communities whose brains have become slush do to OTC medications and your bath tub brews, then you can have something valid to say to me.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by Flash on Jun 26^th, 2004, 7:29am

on 06/26/04 at 00:46:26, don wrote:

The nurses at ER say the same thing about motorcycling.

AA councilors says the same thing about drinking.

Oncologists say the same thing about smoking.

The police say the same thing about speeding.

And then there's drugs...

Strangely enough, like millions of others, I've done my fair share of all the above, and escaped completely unscathed. If you took all the people that had been mutilated by waste disposal units and sent them to the same plastic surgeon, then no doubt he'd be anti waste disposal.

Title: Re: from Andrew - DXM use & CH
Post by don on Jun 26^th, 2004, 8:36am

Quote:

And they are all correct. Lets create and add another dangerous practice to the list. Make sense?

The goal of treatment should be harm reduction.