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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2004 >> Red Bull works
        
(Message started by: frisbee on Jun 13^th, 2004, 1:35pm)

Title: Red Bull works
Post by frisbee on Jun 13^th, 2004, 1:35pm

Hey all

New member. Same ol story. CH since early 20's (I'm in 40s now). After failures on vasoconsrtictors, lithium, found oxygen worked.

Anyway, I read a post about slamming a couple Red Bulls to avert CH. I tried it--walla, it worked. Nice to have an alternative to oxygen when away from home.

Anyone else give it a go?

Cheers,
Kirt

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Jun 13^th, 2004, 8:18pm

Can't hurt. I've got a cycle that's trying to start. If I can't stop it, I'll be drinking a can or two.

Quote:

Ingredients: carbonated water, sucrose, glucose, sodium citrate, taurine, glucuronolactone, caffeine, inositol, niacin, D-pantothenol, pyridoxine HCL, vitamin B12, artificial flavours, colors

Nutrition Facts: Serving Size: 8.3 fl. oz Servings per Container: 1 Amount per serving: Calories: 110 Total Fat: 0g Sodium: 200mg Protein: 0g Total Carbohydrates: 28g Sugars: 27g

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 13^th, 2004, 9:10pm

Mmmmm. Taurine. Delicious.

I am in a cycle, thus will pick up a half-dozen or so bottles next time I am out. Cannot hurt.

Thx!
Wrox

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by pubgirl on Jun 13^th, 2004, 9:15pm

?? the caffeine in it doing it??

Cafergot + loads of anecdotal stuff here about blasting attacks away with strong coffee

Wendy

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Lizzie2 on Jun 13^th, 2004, 9:18pm

I didn't think Red Bull had caffeine. Does it? Interesting theory, though!

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by frisbee on Jun 13^th, 2004, 9:45pm

Yeah it's got caffeine. And taurine is kinda interesting

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?PageType=article&ID=1971

I don't know. Don't drink coffee really, but I should try as an experiment. Supplemental taurine? Sounds weird, cause I sure ain't no vegan. ;)

My initial excitement about Red Bull this a.m. is a bit tempered now. The Wicked Witch returned with a vengence while I was swimming at the local pool. I tried to push it, since I often can chase it away with very vigorous exercise (my 4th grade students learn to just stroll up to me doing push-ups on the floor and ask if the can go to the bathroom). Just see4md to make it worse this time.

Anyway, by the time I got home O2 didn't do much, neither did more Red Bull or exercise. Faded off after a couple hours but would not leave me until I ran up a half-mile hill that is always my last resort.

OTOH, my pattern this week has been every two hours in the morning and then nothing till the wee hours. But it bothers me that no abortive would work--was Red Bull the culprit or was my luck just gone. I had the fantasy that I would get through a cycle with all successful abortives (now that I had 3!), but was reminded quickly and for way too long what this cluster crap is all about. Oh well, I usually only have to live through a half dozen full-blown headaches per cycle if I have O2.

Be interested in what happens for others.

And, did the coffee posts mention anything about rebounds? I guess I should just search...

Cheers,
Kirt

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Superpain on Jun 14^th, 2004, 3:06am

I prefer Mt Dew AMP....
I never tried it as an abortive, but it does have plenty of taurine and I'll keep it in mind.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Gator on Jun 14^th, 2004, 1:18pm

After reading the link, the skeptic in me is thinking this is another of those "Snake Oil" type cure-alls or more likely, a "doctor" trying to sell his books. Taurine may have a place in the body's chemical make up, but the article made it sound like the end all be all. Just in time to get to the ad at the bottom of the article selling dietary aids.

Good for what ails ya:

1. hypertension
2. gallbladder function
3. immune suppression
4. visual problems
5. eye disease
6. cirrhosis
7. liver failure
8. depression
9. male infertility
10. a supplement for newborns and new mothers.
11. cardiovascular problems
12. possibly epilepsy? - .it's main use is, well let me quote : "...its main use has been to help treat epilepsy and other excitable brain states, where it functions as a mild sedative."

Hmmm, in one place it's main use is in the treatment of epilepsy and farther down it lists one of the things it is good for is "possibly epilepsy.

That coupled with the statement that the article is just an exerpt from the "doctor's" cookbook (© Elson M. Haas M.D. (Excerpted from A Cookbook for All Seasons, Celestial Arts) ), makes me cautious of blindly jumping on the bandwagon.

On the other hand are four fingers and a thumb ;;D no, really on the other hand it would cost me a total of $3, + or - some change, to test it for myself. If it works, it beats the hell out of $26 for a Zomig NS.

Gator

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by fivepointnine on Jun 14^th, 2004, 5:08pm

Hey there
I think you may have read my write up. I have tried redbull several times, and it has worked like magic for me every time. I wish it worked the same for eveyone. The only things that have ever helped me have been Imitrex nasal spray and o2( I have had very little contact with much else) now it seems as though the Imitrex has petered out and is no longer effective. My neuro did suggest Lithium and i was very uneasy about taking it, kinda scary to me. Any other suggestions would help out bunches.
Thanx
Erik Rissner

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Jun 14^th, 2004, 5:36pm

Quote:

Most vitamins, minerals, and cofactors are essential for a lot of things in the body. But your right, Gator, its a bit naive to assume that simply taking these will solve all those conditions. I am especially sceptical when someone is profting by pushing said supplement.

I found the Red Bull ingredients, but it didn't say how much of each ingredient is present. Others here have reported that a B supplement has helped them - and there are a variety of B vitamins in RB. Inositol is another interesting molecule - clusterheads have messed up inositol metabolism, and lithium and verapamil both profoundly alter the inositol cycle. (Inositol is so friggin complex that I am not close to understanding it after spending a few weeks on it)

It could be something as simple as the sugar - by analogy, we know oxygen helps abort, and oxygen is low in the estimated 80% of clusterheads with apnea that get hit at night. We also know that for many cluster heads, lipolysis and energy transfer drops way low at night - maybe a boost of sugar from slamming a RB switches on the metabolism.

Or maybe its the cold. Hard to tell.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by FZfan on Jun 14^th, 2004, 6:23pm

interesting thread. I don't know about it's effectiveness on clusters as I am currently in remission, but I do know that red bull with jagermeister works great for attitude adjusting. ;;D

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by frisbee on Jun 14^th, 2004, 7:37pm

> That coupled with the statement that the article is just an exerpt from the "doctor's" cookbook (© Elson M. Haas M.D. (Excerpted from A Cookbook for All Seasons, Celestial Arts) ), makes me cautious of blindly jumping on the bandwagon.<

God yeah, the web site was kinda pathetic. There are better pages on taurine--I just did a quick search and posted the url as a point of interest, since I had barely heard of taurine before.

I don't think there is any bandwagon to jump on for any reasonable person. Just interesting, maybe tarine has something to do with it. Maybe nothing. Maybe it's just sugar/caffeine. Maybe something about the coctail mix.

But hey, its pretty cool to have some non-medical alternative, even if my personal jury is still out on whether it works w/o rebound for me.

Cheers,
Kirt

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by forgetfulnot on Jun 15^th, 2004, 1:18pm

I had never heard of it either, here is another link with quite a bit of information.............

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/taurine3-2.html

Lee

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by frisbee on Jun 17^th, 2004, 12:10pm

Update

Had a job interview and of course, a headache starts on halfway thru. After I get two red bulls for the ride home (30 minutes to O2). No magic this time.

Cheers,
Kirt

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Gator on Jun 17^th, 2004, 2:39pm

on 06/17/04 at 12:10:02, frisbee wrote:

Update

Had a job interview and of course, a headache starts on halfway thru. After I get two red bulls for the ride home (30 minutes to O2). No magic this time.

Cheers,
Kirt

That's the way it goes, sometimes. Sorry it didn't work for you this time.

Gator

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by BlueMeanie on Jun 17^th, 2004, 7:30pm

on 06/14/04 at 17:08:20, fivepointnine wrote:

I have tried redbull several times, and it has worked like magic for me every time. I wish it worked the same for eveyone. Any other suggestions would help out bunches. Thanx

I hate to sound like the smartass that I am. :-/

If RedBull works everytime, why do you need any other meds ?

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by 9erfan on Jun 18^th, 2004, 12:33pm

Red Bull plus 2 Excedrins is what I use to get over a shroom hangover. It makes me feel 100% better the day after dosing.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Abaris on Aug 31^st, 2004, 2:08pm

I have a case of Red Bull in the fridge right now. It works about 90% of the time for me. I slam one of the foul bastards at the first sign of a shadow. If I wait too long it's effect and relief are reduced. I have found that the diet Bull works as well. BTW... Red Bull is the ONLY thing that I take aside from pot. The pot is for relaxation and has no effect on CH for me aside from keeping me from headbangin' on the floor.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Aug 31^st, 2004, 2:34pm

Did some more digging - taurine changes a variety of ion channels: calcium, potassium, and sodium. Not sure that it is 'calcium channel blocker' per se - its more complicated, but it does change the calcium flow.

Quote:

Adv Exp Med Biol. 1998;442:121-8.

Cardiac actions of taurine as a modulator of the ion channels.

Satoh H.

Department of Pharmacology, Nara Medical University, Japan.

During ischemia, hypoxia and cardiac failure, the heart undergoes several adverse changes, including a reduction in taurine (2-aminoethanesulfonic acid). Oral administration of taurine under these disease conditions would be expected to act like a mild cardiac glycoside. Taurine would exert improvement in the accumulation of [Na]i and the loss of alpha-amino acids. Nonetheless, when intracellular taurine content is raised, there would be the benefit of increased Ca2+ release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum and increased Ca2+ sensitivity of the contractile proteins, as well as possible changes in the action potential associated with the actions of taurine on ion channels. In fact, intracellular application of taurine produces the opposite actions to extracellularly administration of the amino acid. From our previous experiments, the electrophysiological actions of taurine on cardiac muscle cells include the following. (a) Prolongation of action potential duration (APD) at high [Ca]i and shortening of APD at low [Ca]i. In multicellular preparations, however, taurine did not always prevent [Ca]o-induced effects. (b) Stimulation of spontaneous activity at low intracellular and extracellular Ca2+ concentrations ([Ca]i and [Ca]o), and vice versa. (c) Inhibition of the L-type Ca2+ current (ICa(L)) at high [Ca]i, and vice versa. (d) Enhancement of the T-type Ca2+ current (ICa(T)). (e) Inhibition of fast Na+ current (INa). (f) Enhancement of TTX-insensitive slow Na+ current. (g) Inhibition of delayed rectifier K+ current (IKrec) at high [Ca]i, and vice versa. (h) Enhancement of the transient outward current (Ito). (i) Inhibition of the ATP-sensitive K+ current (IK(ATP)). Since taurine acts on so many ion channels and transporters, it is clearly non-specific. Although it is very difficult to understand the diversity of taurine's actions, it is possible that taurine can exert its potent cardioprotective actions under the conditions of low [Ca]i, as well as Ca2+ overload. Thus, although taurine-induced modulation of ion channels located on the cardiac cell membrane is complex, the multiple effects may combine to yield useful therapeutic results.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Tom K on Sep 2^nd, 2004, 12:04am

I tried the Bull. It worked, mostly. Left me with a shadow that wasn't that bad, probably a K1 or K2. I'm going to give AMP a try. It tastes way better...next thing you know, I'll be chewin the foil! [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by farmboy on Sep 5^th, 2004, 7:22am

ok what is red bull?

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by FZfan on Sep 5^th, 2004, 10:16am

red bull is basically a caffiene drink, tastes somewhat like mountain dew.

it is also my favorite mixer with jagermeister.

around here, 1/2 can red bull (ice cold) + shot or two of jagermeister = jager bomb.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Sep 6^th, 2004, 9:37pm

Taurine reduces the effects of Substance P, which is one of the bad actors that causes heat and pain during a cluster attack. It doesn't block the full spectrum of CGRP/Substance P injections, but it may be useful in turning down the pain.

Quote:

Pain. 1990 Jul;42(1):93-101.

Interactions between substance P, calcitonin gene-related peptide, taurine and excitatory amino acids in the spinal cord.

Smullin DH, Skilling SR, Larson AA.

Department of Veterinary Biology, University of Minnesota, St. Paul 55108.

Using in vivo microdialysis in the dorsal spinal cord of the rat, we have previously observed increases in glutamate and aspartate during exposure to a noxious stimulus. The present investigation was designed to determine whether these increases may be mediated by substance P. Infusion of 1 mM of substance P in the dialysis fluid increased the concentrations of glutamate and aspartate, similar to the response seen during noxious stimulation. In addition, substance P also increased the concentrations of the inhibitory amino acids glycine and taurine. Calcitonin gene-related peptide, previously shown to enhance substance P-induced biting and scratching behavior, produced no effect on amino acid release by itself but potentiated the apparent release of taurine by substance P. To assess the importance of substance P-induced amino acid release in sensory processing, we examined the influence of taurine and of excitatory amino acid antagonists on the biting and scratching behavior produced by excitatory amino acids and substance P. Taurine selectively inhibited only substance P-induced biting and scratching while excitatory amino acid antagonists inhibited only excitatory amino acid-induced behavior. To further explore the ability of taurine to inhibit the substance P-induced behavior, 3 tests of nociception were then used. Pretreatment with taurine inhibited the nociceptive-related writhing behavior produced by an intraperitoneal injection of acetic acid in mice but failed to alter the latency of response in the hot plate or tail flick assay.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

The corporate website for Red Bull indicates that a can contains 1000 mg of Taurine and 600 mg of glucuronolactone - more than just a pinch. Will check on the gluco-fluco-urono-lactono and find out more about it in the next few days.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Giovanni on Sep 7^th, 2004, 3:30am

Where do you buy this stuff?

[smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by FZfan on Sep 7^th, 2004, 7:51am

It's unbelievably expensive. In this area it's available at gas station/quick marts, grocery stores, the usual places. Sam's sells it for nearly $30 a case, and these are small cans.

Far overpriced, imho.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Woobie on Sep 8^th, 2004, 12:27pm

http://www.coffeeforless.com/images/uploads/redbull.gif

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Woobie on Sep 8^th, 2004, 12:29pm

on 09/07/04 at 07:51:58, FZfan wrote:

If it works............... who cares??

it's better than the IMITREX prices.

Next time Ramon goes into cycle.. we're gonna try it.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by FZfan on Sep 8^th, 2004, 12:44pm

I guess that's true, but if comparing to imitrex prices, the amount of relief would also need to be compared. I will be amazed if Ramon gets the same amount of relief from Red Bull as he does from imitrex. But, the only way to find out is to try.

Nothing is overpriced if it provides relief and one can afford the price. If one can't afford the price, though, then there's still a problem.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Sep 8^th, 2004, 1:29pm

I bought a 4 pack at Target a while back - I think the cost was around $1.25 or $1.50 each - more than a soda in a store, about the same as a soda or coffee in a restaurant.

Taurine can be bought for about 15 cents per 1000 mg on the net - maybe cheaper, I just grabbed the first price I found for a widely distributed brand that I recognized.

Glucuronolactone is not as widely available, and when it is, is usually mixed with creatine and other body building supplements - and it isn't cheap.

Sodium citrate is also cheap - and magnesium citrate might be better - less sodium/more magnesium might have a beneficial effect, and having a citrate buffer to stabilize blood pH might account for some of the Red Bull effect.

The B vitamins come out to a few cents total.

A do it yourself blend of most of the active ingredients would cost maybe 30 to 50 cents.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by trisha on Sep 9^th, 2004, 6:07pm

Do you take it when it comes or b4? I am in a cycle and am getting them nightly. I am so afraid, angry etc of the pain.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Sep 10^th, 2004, 9:33am

on 09/05/04 at 10:16:35, FZfan wrote:

around here, 1/2 can red bull (ice cold) + shot or two of jagermeister = jager bomb.

Be careful drinking those. I mean it. A lot of bars won't even sell them any more. You are mixing a stimulant (Red Bull) with a depressant (jager). Not very good for the body.

If you insist on drinking them, just be careful.

Pat

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Sep 10^th, 2004, 9:45am

Quote:

Do you take it when it comes or b4?

Most people here that have reported an effect have drunk one as soon as a headache hits, though it might also prevent - at this point, it is just anecdotal, so it is hard to say if/how it works.

Quote:

Be careful drinking those. I mean it. A lot of bars won't even sell them any more. You are mixing a stimulant (Red Bull) with a depressant (jager). Not very good for the body.

I agree. Mixing anything with a high dose of alcohol has risks. (Tylenol and alcohol together can really screw up the liver.) Many bars serve coffee to people that have been drinking (stimulant after depressant) - but the other ingredients in Red Bull may have different properties.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by FZfan on Sep 10^th, 2004, 1:03pm

on 09/10/04 at 09:33:03, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:

Yeah, I've received a few notes from other board members warning me of the dangers of red bull + alcohol. Thanks to all for the information.

Of course, alcohol by itself can be dangerous also. Like most things, moderation is the key.

For the past few months I have had 3 or 4 jager bombs every friday night (the only night I drink each week) along with a few beers. I haven't noticed any ill effects, but I understand that doesn't mean there aren't any. Guess I'll quit drinking jager bombs.

Too bad, it was quite a pleasant buzz. Oh well, there's other buzzes out there.

Geez, next thing you know you'll be telling me cigarettes are bad for you. ;;D

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Jaime on Sep 12^th, 2004, 9:01am

Out of desperation, I gave the Red Bull a try last night and got relief within 10 minutes. I was able to sleep for almost 6 hours before the beast woke me up. Drank another Red Bull about 7 minutes ago. I can feel the knot behind my eye starting to loosen up. It appears that Red Bull is working for me, for now.

It would be interesting to find out if it is the caffeine, the taurine, the B vitamins, or some combo that brings the relief. That is a clinincal study I could sign up for - free Red Bull. *grin* C'mon researchers, write THAT grant. ;)

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Jaime on Sep 14^th, 2004, 6:32am

Well, like everything else I've tried - Red Bull worked for a day or two, and then stopped working. That seems to be a pattern for me, as though the beast adapts, and damn quickly.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 14^th, 2004, 8:14am

Yow! This stuff is EXPENSIVE.

Saw this post lingering out here. Was at the grocery store the other day and saw Red Bull. Picked up one of the smallish-cans... then looked at the price... $1.75 a can!

And some folk say you need to slam two of them! And it might not work?!

Well, for science I will give it a shot next episode, but honestly my Trex copay is far far cheaper.

Anyone try injecting Red Bull? Just like Trex, you probably need far less if taken via needle. (do not even consider replying to that)

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Baritone on Sep 15^th, 2004, 3:42am

Funny, I hadn't tried Red Bull because I have identified so many food type triggers and assumed some of them might be there but I have been taking Taurine for some time with an Altovis and lots of coffee in the morning and my days tended to be relatively headache free. I ran out of the Taurine a week ago and have been geting more headaches during the day again. Perhaps there is something to it. I'm on Verapamilm, Prednisone, Feverfew and Melatonin to try and break this series, currently in it's 8th week. and I'm desperate to try anything that could help. My last series stayed 9 months and only ended after a week in intensive care for a bacterial infection where I had a Demerol shot every three hours. I'm using lots of triptans for the 4 to 8 attacks I get each day and get the best relief with Imitrex injections that I am now alternatng with Lidocaine injections. I get a Demerol shot twice a week but their effectiveness now seems to be waining as well.
Btw, if anyone is interested, I have identified and compiled a rather lengthy food trigger list that might be of use to others. I would be more than happy to post it. It has certainly changed my way of cooking and eating.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 15^th, 2004, 7:50am

Baritone...
Are you saying you have been on Pred going on 8 weeks? Or that you are on another short Pred taper?

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by floridian on Sep 15^th, 2004, 9:19am

Baritone,

I would be careful about stacking too many meds. Nobody knows what the interaction between verapamil and taurine is, for example. Maybe the combo is more effective and less toxic, or maybe its less effective and more toxic. I recently posted a thread titled "Verapamil + Erythromycin = Heart Attack ??" - erythromycin increases the risk of a heart attack if taken with verapamil. Because both taurine and verap have major effects on calcium and other ions, there is a real possibility of overdoing things. I wouldn't hesitate to drink a red bull myself, but I have short, well defined episodes (2 months/year) and only take melatonin/magnesium/B vitamins as a preventive.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by clavers on Sep 15^th, 2004, 11:09am

I have had CH for 20 years, been chronic for 6 years. I have tried everything. This morning I slammed two red bulls and by god they worked! I hope that they continue to be effective.

Title: Re: Red Bull works
Post by Baritone on Sep 16^th, 2004, 1:09am

I'll be darned! I too slammed two Red Bulls at the hard beginning of an episode this evening. After 20 minutes of hot shower on the head time, it took a 9 (K scale) to about a 3 and that was all but gone within 20 minutes more. Guess there may be something to it. It was even better to get out of the shower and put my unused Imitrex injection up for another time. I'll keep trying this.

To Rock Lobster; I'm on my third Pred. taper with no positive results so far.

To Floridian; I understand what you are saying about mixing too many drugs but it's very hard not to do any and everything when you're having an average of 5 episodes (K-scale 9's to 10's) per 24 hours. I'm going to drop the Verapamil since it hasn't seemed to help for a number of years. Thanks to all for your help and sharing your discoveries and knowledge. Keep it coming!

Praying for PFDAN for all.