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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2004 >> Shroom Question >
        
(Message started by: UN_SOLVED on Jun 7^th, 2004, 5:34pm)

Title: Shroom Question >
Post by UN_SOLVED on Jun 7^th, 2004, 5:34pm

Doctors at MHNI say that shrooms 'are the same as' DHE. (true or not, I dunno for sure ... i'm no chemist) I'll take their word for it. Anyhows...Repeated use of DHE IV infusions can / will cause a raise in blood pressure and a constriction in blood vessels which can lead to pain in the legs, knees, ankles, and feet (also a whitening of the fingers and toes). Maximum dosage for IV therapy is 6 mg per week.

My question (finally): Would / could repeated use of shrooms (3+ X a week) cause the same effects as I mentioned above ?

Unsolved

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by eyes_afire on Jun 7^th, 2004, 6:24pm

Hi Unsolved,

They are not the same. Everytime the 'science guys' try to 'build a better mushroom', they 'fuck up' (meaning they don't get it quite right).

Some recreational users on the Shroomery message board take large/many doses and don't experience the pain/whitening in extremeties that you mention. If you are more curious about that, maybe check at that MB as many here haven't taken that much shrooms (and I can't see how dosing that frequently would even be necessary... or advisable).

--- Steve

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by 9erfan on Jun 7^th, 2004, 7:19pm

Unsolved,

Those using shrooms for the treatment of cluster headaches are strongly advised NOT to use them more frequently than once every 5 days. Not because of the side effects, but because they just won't work.
I don't understand the chemistry of it, but if Pinkfloyd or Flash or Pinksharkman sees this thread one of them will be able to answer it.

Virginia

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by miapet on Jun 7^th, 2004, 9:32pm

Michael,
D suffers from high b/p, that's one of the major reasons we did not use standard pharmacy. We believe his b/p problems are directly related to his use of pharmcy in the 1980s (for CH).
You do not dose that many times per week. In fact, closer than 5 days is not advised, as there hasn't been enough time, and it's a waste of time and medication.
D has dosed a total of 2 times . . .1 dose, wait 2 weeks, 2nd dose. He is still p/f.
I check his b/p daily and, while we are still dealing with his b/p issues, it has not 'raised' since dosing.
We selected this form of treatment as it appears to have the least side-effects and the best results.
I hope this helps a little.
mia

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by mynm156 on Jun 7^th, 2004, 10:53pm

As I understand it your body quickly builds up a tolerance to them and it may require more each time. Though I AM NOT POSITIVE ABOUT THIS SO PUT T HE GUNS DOWN BOYS IF I AM WRONG...

hahahahaha

MYNM156

[smiley=hurl.gif]

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jun 8^th, 2004, 12:59am

on 06/07/04 at 17:34:37, UN_SOLVED wrote:

Doctors at MHNI say that shrooms 'are the same as' DHE.

Maximum dosage for IV therapy is 6 mg per week.

My question (finally): Would / could repeated use of shrooms (3+ X a week) cause the same effects as I mentioned above ?

Unsolved

Psilocybin is not the same as DHE. How many people here have had their cycles broken with 2 shots of DHE?
They are not chemically the same.

I was using DHE shots for years and was using them when I detoxed for the shrooms.
Using one and then the other, you would notice BIG differences in both the side effects and the results.

Doses of psilocybin will slightly raise the BP for a short period of time. I don't have the figures but we have discussed this quite a few times. A couple people that were worried about it stayed on verapamil just to be safe because they had very high BP to begin with or would have been too high if they detoxed from Verapamil. Results have varied a bit, "with vs. without" Verapamil, but I think that enough people have had success while still on verapamil that if it was a question, I'd suggest trying it while still on it and hope you still had success.

I still believe that a person has less of a physical reaction (side effects) with psilocybin than with DHE or Imitrex shots.

"Standard" treatment with psilocybin is two doses, with 5 days between each dose. Each dose is an average of 1 or 2 grams of mushrooms, which contain only MICROGRAMS of psilocybin. Most of the shroom is "filler" basically, just like most pills.

So, when you compare grams of one thing to grams of another, it's more a matter of what makes up that gram than the weight itself.

People do not build up a tolerance to shrooms like they do narcotics. Number one, if you take them too often they are non-effective. Not that you've built up a tolerance and you need more, its that the receptors they attach to, are closed off and the psilocybin, for the most part, will be expelled, unused so to speak.
If you took 2 grams on monday.....you could probably take 5 grams on tuesday night without much effect.
This is why psilocybin is considered counter-addictive. This is why it's being used to break people of other addictions.

If this were the case, people that have been doing them recreationally, once a week for years, would now be eating them by the pound. Just isn't happening. Those people for the most part are still using 4 to 6 grams, years later.

Some people have tried using very small doses, several times a week. They mix up some tea and just take a sip when they feel an attack coming on. The sip will abort an attack but does not have the lasting effect in most cases or enough of a whallop to break the cycle. This method is most often used by people that are having a difficult time detoxing from imitrex. Instead of a shot, they take a sip of tea with the same results. The time between these sips of tea is then spread out each time until they can take a larger dose. Large enough to have a long lasting effect. A few people have ended up breaking their cycle just by this sipping method and never needed the larger dose, but it isn't the norm. We also don't uet have a lot of data collected from the "sippers" because most people would rather take 2 or 3 "regular" doses and be done with it, and go back to sipping their Budweisser.

My guess is that these small doses would not raise your BP any more than one Victoria's Secret commercial.

The data on micrograms of psilocybin per gram of mushrooms can be found on the Erowid site. It is slightly different depending upon the strain of mushroom and the size of the mushroom. Little ones are about as potent as the large ones in most cases.

Hope this helps
PF

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by UN_SOLVED on Jun 8^th, 2004, 10:38am

Thanks everyone for your input.

Special thanks to Bob

Unsolved

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by Flash on Jun 8^th, 2004, 12:00pm

DHE is a variatrion on ergotamine. Ergotamine is an alkaloid of a fungis called ergot that grows on grain. Ergot is NOT a mushroom.

Eating grain infected with ergot causes hallucinations and loss of blood supply to the extremities due to vascular constriction. These effects may lead to gangrene.

Scientists seeking a migraine treatment investigated ergot derived compounds in the hope that the vascular constriction effects would help abort attacks. Many migraine drugs operate on this basis (although by different routes) imitrex, beta-blockers, and O2. Ergotamine was the first.

Ergotamine the first alkaloid sythesised from Ergot and more or less encapsulated the vascular constriction effect without the hallucinations. Careful regulation of the dose prevents nasty side effects like gangrene or cardiac arrest.

More scientists including Albert Hoffmann later went on to investigate ergotamine. They extracted the nucleus of the ergotamine molecule and this was lysergic acid di-ethyl-amide (LSD). LSD turned out to be active at doses that were a fraction of the ergotamine dose, but although there was a very slight vascular constriction effect, the main action of LSD was to cause hallucinations. LSD is not in the same league as ergotamine when it comes to vascular constriction - not even close.

LSD proved to be extremely effective against migraine but the side effects were a little extreme also. To get around this LSD was modified into methysergide (Sansert etc) which lacked most of the trippy side effects and wasn't nearly as effective against migraine.

Psilocybin is not hugely similar to any of the ergot alkaloids other than it shares a basic indole ring structure as do most hallucinogens and also serotonin. Psilocybin is chemically a much simpler structure that has far more in common with serotonin and DMT that LSD or ergotamine.

It is likely that psilocybin, and LSD are effective against vascular headaches due to sharing some basic similarities with DMT, although LSD is a far more complex structure. DMT is a neurotransmitter that is naturally produced in the pineal gland alongside serotonin and melatonin. BTW melatonin is similar to the drug neurontin. The secretions of the pineal gland are controlled by the hypothalamus.

In my opinion the key to CH may be DMT, or some combination of serotonin, melatonin, and DMT. Despite being produced within the human body, DMT is a first order hallucinogenic and one of the most psychoactive substances on this planet. It makes LSD look like caffiene in the fuck with your head stakes!

You heard it here first.

So in summary - no... taking mushrooms will not cause your leg to drop off.

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by UN_SOLVED on Jun 8^th, 2004, 1:11pm

Thanks Flash ... you guys know it all !

Unsolved

Title: Re: Shroom Question >
Post by ozzman on Jun 9^th, 2004, 8:56am

Since I had no clue, what DMT was, I looked around, and found the following, even beat Floridian to it...ha!

Quote:

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1998 Nov;61(3):323-30. Related Articles, Links

Agonist properties of N,N-dimethyltryptamine at serotonin 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors.

Smith RL, Canton H, Barrett RJ, Sanders-Bush E.

Department of Pharmacology, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Nashville, TN 37232-6600, USA.

Extensive behavioral and biochemical evidence suggests an agonist role at the 5-HT2A receptor, and perhaps the 5-HT2C receptor, in the mechanism of action of hallucinogenic drugs. However the published in vitro pharmacological properties of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), an hallucinogenic tryptamine analog, are not consistent with this hypothesis. We, therefore, undertook an extensive investigation into the properties of DMT at 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors. In fibroblasts transfected with the 5-HT2A receptor or the 5-HT2C receptor, DMT activated the major intracellular signaling pathway (phosphoinositide hydrolysis) to an extent comparable to that produced by serotonin. Because drug efficacy changes with receptor density and cellular microenvironment, we also examined the properties of DMT in native preparations using a behavioral and biochemical approach. Rats were trained to discriminate an antagonist ketanserin from an agonist 1-(2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodophenyl)-2-aminopropane (DOI) in a two-lever choice paradigm. Pharmacological studies showed that responding on the DOI and ketanserin lever reflected agonist and antagonist activity at 5-HT2A receptors, and hence, was a suitable model for evaluating the in vivo functional properties of DMT. Like other 5-HT2A receptor agonists, DMT substituted fully for DOI. Intact choroid plexus was used to evaluate the agonist properties at endogenous 5-HT2C receptors; DMT was a partial agonist at 5-HT2C receptors in this native preparation. Thus, we conclude that DMT behaves as an agonist at both 5-HT2A and 5-HT2A receptors. One difference was evident in that the 5-HT2C, but not the 5-HT2A, receptor showed a profound desensitization to DMT over time. This difference is interesting in light of the recent report that the hallucinogenic activity of DMT does not tolerate in humans and suggests the 5-HT2C receptor plays a less prominent role in the action of DMT.

PMID: 9768567 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Now, what does it all mean? I won't attempt to interpret my interpretation, need someone more intelligent or versed in the subject. Ask me a Physics, Computer, or Aviation Visual Guidance question, and you're in my court...

Ozzy