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(Message started by: Superpain on Mar 28th, 2004, 10:34pm)
Title: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 28th, 2004, 10:34pm
I'm at my wit's end. If someone told me to eat dog poop to get relief, I'd try it...

Anyway, I got melatonin, and i thought I saw something about magnesium somewere, so I got some of that too, along with a multi vitamin.

I couldn't remember which thread the melatonin was suggested in,,, What is the effective dose for us clusterheads?
And was the magnesium also suggested or is that a waste of time?
thanks.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 28th, 2004, 10:41pm
At one point, 9-21 mg of melatonin was recommended to me.  I know that T_H_B gets by on a small dose, but I can't remember what it is.  Maybe PM him if he doesn't respond to this thread?  The dose really varies for a variety of people.  For another person, I think it works best at 15 and doesn't work at 13 or 17.  (At least I think that's what he told me...)

My doc put me on magnesium, 250mg twice a day.  I don't remember if it is for NDPH or CH or both, though.

I'm considering trying the melatonin again...
Considering going to the ER myself....can't take much more of this.


[[[[[superpain]]]]]
Keep on fighting!

Lizzie
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by floridian on Mar 28th, 2004, 10:50pm
Magnesium may help if your body reserve of magnesium is low.  About 40% of people tested showed some improvement.  This study was about using IV magnesium (not a D.I.Y. project), but tablets should work as well,  just takes longer to kick in.  Chelated magnesium (citrate, aspartate, orotate, etc) is better tolerated by many - magnesium oxide can cause a loose bowel, and magnesium sulfate is a well known laxative.

Magnesium acts as a cofactor for many enzymes, so a deficiency can affect many metabolic processes. Magnesium also acts as a calcium channel blocker.  


Quote:
1: Headache. 1995 Nov-Dec;35(10):597-600.      

   Intravenous magnesium sulfate relieves cluster headaches in patients with low serum ionized magnesium levels.

   Mauskop A, Altura BT, Cracco RQ, Altura BM.

   Department of Neurology, State University of New York, Health Science Center at Brooklyn, USA.

   Patients with cluster headaches have been reported to have low serum ionized magnesium levels. We examined the possibility that patients with cluster headaches and low ionized magnesium levels may respond to an intravenous infusion of magnesium sulfate. Thirty-eight infusions of magnesium sulfate were given to 22 patients with cluster headaches. The mean ionized magnesium level prior to 23 infusions which provided relief for at least 2 days and enabled the patient to skip two or more attacks, was 0.521 +/- 0.016 mmol/L; this value was 0.561 +/- 0.016 prior to 15 infusions which were ineffective. These latter 15 infusions were preceded by higher total magnesium levels. The ionized magnesium level prior to the 23 effective infusions was below 0.54 mmol/L in 19 patients. Five of the 15 ineffective infusions were accompanied by basal ionized magnesium levels below 0.54 mmol/L. In 76% of the infusions, there was a correlation between a response and an ionized magnesium level below 0.54 mmol/L. Nine patients (41%) obtained clinically meaningful improvement. Spontaneous remissions and a placebo effect might have accounted for some of the improvement. However, this should have applied equally to all patients, regardless of the ionized magnesium level. Measurements of ionized magnesium may prove useful in elucidating the pathogenesis of cluster headache and in identifying patients who may benefit from treatment with magnesium.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 28th, 2004, 11:05pm
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Pegase on Mar 29th, 2004, 12:03am
Do you need a script to buy melatonin??? And what does it do exactly...

Like to know...


Pegase
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 29th, 2004, 12:11am
Hello Pegase,

Not sure how it works in Canada, exactly, but if it is the same as in the US, you don't need a script for it.  Melatonin is actually a hormone made in the body.  It helps to regulate sleep.  I'm sure that someone could give you a more scientific explanation than that.  However, sometimes the body doesn't produce enough through its own source, so taken it in pill form does help.  In general, for many people it helps to sleep through the night without as many nocturnal CH attacks.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong!!

Lizzie
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 29th, 2004, 12:24am
That's what I'm hoping for!
You're right on the hormone part and it is OTC...
I started off taking 9mg... 3x the reccomended dosage on the bottle, but we'll see if that's enough. I need uninterrupted sleep real, real bad, right now! Or I'm gonna lose my mind and have an emotional breakdown. :(
I've been getting hit too hard, too often, too long. I'd give anything for 12hrs of uninterrupted sleep!
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by PittsburghJoe on Mar 29th, 2004, 12:35am
Super, I'm right there with ya. I got some melatonin yesterday and took 3mg before bed, woke with a HA about an hour later. I took 9mg tonight, drifted off for a bit, but woke back up (on my own, not the beast). I've taken to sleeping with a cannula and my O2 concentrator set at 5lpm, hoping that helps stave off an attack. I've been taking magnesium and B-complex along with my depakote too, hoping that will help. I only have one Imitrex tablet left, plus Frova samples my PCP gave me, but my insurance won't refill my imitrex.

I know not to mix triptans, so I'm holding off on trying the Frova till it's been 24 hours since my last trex... or at least until 9am today... hope the beast stays away that long. I've handled a couple mid-level attacks today with O2... straight from the cylinder since I don't have a non-rebreather.

I'm hoping like hell I can get squeezed in at the neuro, since my PCP doesn't seem too concerned about giving me what I need. He insists the depakote needs more time to work, this after 3 weeks of taking it.

Anyhow, rant mode is off, I'm just frustrated.

Sending PF sleep vibes your way, Super.

Joe
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 29th, 2004, 12:40am
Joe,

It's true about the depakote.  Can take 6 weeks or more before it kicks in.  However, with CH we can't really wait that long!!!  Good that you're trying the O2 and melatonin.  Have you/your doc considered a steroid taper to give you some relief until the depakote starts working?  Sometimes they do that when someone starts a new preventive that might take awhile to get started.

I'm in a fix at the moment as well because I ran out of Amerge and the insurance company won't pay for more.  I have to call tomorrow to see if my doctor's office actually sent an override letter.  In the meantime, on Friday night he called in stadol for me.  Just used it again, and it has dulled the pain for a little bit.

I'm getting exhausted from all the attacks and high levels of pain.  This week has been absolutely awful..worse than usual..that's why I've been considering going to the ER.  Don't know if I will though because I tend to be against going to the ER for my headaches...  I'll see how it is tomorrow..

Hang in there, and I sure hope we all get some relief soon!!!

Hugz,
Lizzie
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by PittsburghJoe on Mar 29th, 2004, 1:03am
Lizzie,

I'm at the tail end of my second prednisone taper. Other than making me feel bloated and sore the last couple weeks, I don't think it helped much. I've been geting breakthrough headaches from the beginning, I'm just spacier in between them. What torques me off more than anything is that my PCP won't hear of me getting imitrex in anything but pill form, and when I finally got an O2 prescription, it was for a concentrator with a max of 5lpm and a cannula. Hell, the e-tank I got as a backup is about empty as we speak, and I've been using it without the regulator, just taking hits from the valve. That's why I'm hoping to get in VERY soon with the neuro. I have calls to make first thing in the morning.

I'm avoiding the ER, cause all they've ever done is shoot me with demerol, put me on a cannula for a half hour, then send me on my way.

Good vibes right back to you, Lizzie!

Joe
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Bob_Johnson on Mar 29th, 2004, 3:52am
Here is a site for magnesium info (from an old message of mine): "WWW.HEADACHEPAINFREE.COM   The content of this site has been expanded since I first posted it. It now covers several types of headache and a more general coverage of medications. It remains, to my knowledge, the best single source of information on the use of magnesium for headache--both for prevention and as a  treatment during an active cycle.

Magnesium as a preventive treatment for CH is the main value of this site. It appears that magnesium has been used in Europe for some years for this purpose and I've posted one medical report about using IV magnesium to abort headaches which would not repond to the usual medications. [With thanks to Shawna @ 6/22/00.]"
---
Melatonin: Several reports using it to prevent attacks were using 9mg/day at bedtime. It may take several days before you can expect to judge the value. I have not seen any new reports for nearly a year now, suggesting that this may have been a blind alley. But given the low cost and safety of melatonin, it's worth a try.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by M8895 on Mar 29th, 2004, 4:37am
I've been on Depakote too and it took too damn long to work for me.  I couldn't take the wait.  I was on it for a little over 2 months 200mg a day.  The only thing that I walked a way from with it was 20 lbs... Lil liz I'm sory to hear that you are in such bad pain.  right now :( I'm right there with you.  I've not come out of my bout at all since we have last spoken.  I'm still on Topomax 200mg a day and it isn't doing diddly squat.  I'm getting hit 5 or 6 times a night and as you know I'm Chronic and also that o2 does not work for me.  I also suck it straight from the tube.  I'm taking DHE, Toradol and Compazine IM and nothing is touching these things. Vibes to all of you and keep fighting!  I've been head banging fiercly.  On March 19th I had my first Botox treatment and so far nothing.  I also went to the Chiropractor March 20th (desperate for anything).  I got a massage the other day.  Hang in there guy's.  I say that I can't take this much more either but what the hell else can we do?  We've got to fight.  Connie
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Giovanni on Mar 29th, 2004, 8:26am
Hello,

Yes, 9mg of melatonin one hour before planned bedtime plus some B-Complex 50's a couple time during the day ended my last cycle by one month. Good luck.

John
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 29th, 2004, 2:31pm
FUCKEN A! Melatonin RULES!

I ran out of O2 last night and had to suffer a pretty good one just after I laid down, for about an hour. The melatonin seemed like it wanted to help at 9mg, but couldn't quite do it, so I uped it to 18mg.
I still had headaches... I even kinda remember moaning and sort of "yelping" at one point. I remember my head and neck being rather uncomfortable, and I still even have a slight headache today... But it's noon here, and I just got up from about 10 hrs of sleeping without having to get up and dance! Like I said, it was sort of restless here and there, and my head definitely hurt, but I was able to sleep through it.
Thanks everybody!
That's about as close to a silver bullet as I've found for the night time!
And you can get it at the grocery store!

I just can't believe the little simple things that help so much! All these years of suffering! When I lived in Missouri, where I had a good portion of my cycles, my next door neighbor had a huge welding shop stocked with plenty of O2, but I didn't know... The grocery store has always had melatonin, but I didn't know... What else don't we know!?
For all we know the cure for these things is sitting on the shelf in the paper goods isle of the local grocery store... It's crazy...


Anyone that has not tried melatonin, and can't sleep... Get your ass to the store today!
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 29th, 2004, 2:34pm

on 03/29/04 at 00:40:32, Lizzie2 wrote:
Joe,

It's true about the depakote.  Can take 6 weeks or more before it kicks in.  However, with CH we can't really wait that long!!!  Good that you're trying the O2 and melatonin.  Have you/your doc considered a steroid taper to give you some relief until the depakote starts working?  Sometimes they do that when someone starts a new preventive that might take awhile to get started.

I'm in a fix at the moment as well because I ran out of Amerge and the insurance company won't pay for more.  I have to call tomorrow to see if my doctor's office actually sent an override letter.  In the meantime, on Friday night he called in stadol for me.  Just used it again, and it has dulled the pain for a little bit.

I'm getting exhausted from all the attacks and high levels of pain.  This week has been absolutely awful..worse than usual..that's why I've been considering going to the ER.  Don't know if I will though because I tend to be against going to the ER for my headaches...  I'll see how it is tomorrow..

Hang in there, and I sure hope we all get some relief soon!!!

Hugz,
Lizzie


Have you noticed any change in frequency or severity since starting the stadol?
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2004, 2:36pm

on 03/29/04 at 14:31:46, Superpain wrote:
FUCKEN A! Melatonin RULES!

Yeah, pretty much.  ;;D
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 29th, 2004, 2:40pm
Not so much....the attacks got more severe and more frequent Saturday-Sunday.  Haven't had one yet today, but when the attacks wore off over the weekend, it had aggravated my NDPH headache to an extremely high level, so I felt like I was not getting any break.  Last night, the stadol did lessen the pain some for the first time, and I was able to sleep through the night more or less.  It definately made me really itchy and drunk feeling!  Gotta try not to use it for the next couple days, though...so I don't get into the habit of overusing it, or using my prescription up too fast!  So frustrating....

I'm glad to hear the melatonin helped you so much!!!! :)  That's excellent. :)  Keep us posted on how it continues to work.

Hugz, Lizzie :)
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 29th, 2004, 2:53pm
Yeah, Lizzie you can build up a tolerance and even a dependancy on that stuff pretty quick. I used to go through a bottle about every 4 days in cycle in the past.

Just be aware of the ha patterns, and I'd suggest stopping using it if they change. I've suspected for a while that stadol sometimes makes me have more, worse headaches. And since it doesn't really do anything except make you not care about the headache, you have to weigh the pro's and con's of using it.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 29th, 2004, 4:48pm
You're right about all that.  All it did for me last night was that I could sleep for more or less 6 hours.  But at least I didn't care about it too much!

I'm going to try not to use it today or tomorrow.  I had forgotten last night that on Friday, I'm starting a steroid taper...or at least I had better be!  Going to try to hold out till then....

Thanks for the advice about it! :)
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2004, 5:39pm
Yo! Superpain, here's my cocktail

My CH treatment

20min HOT steamy shower 1 hour before bed
3 mg of melatonin and 2 mg of time-release melatonin afterwards
Go to bed
Wake up, take 250 mg of magnesium and 20 mg of fluoxetine (prozac)
Abort with zomig as needed.  
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Luke63 on Mar 29th, 2004, 5:42pm
Never tried melatonin. And now Ihear this shit about Depakote. I've been since the 18th@250 for 5 days then 500 for 10 days then back to 250 again...and Im not really sure it's doing anything either. I think Im runnin down my cycle here in a few weeks..(knock on wood)...at least I hope I am. But...next time I'm going to try the melatonin and see.....

Good topic Super!!   Thanxxx....Luke
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by t_h_b on Mar 29th, 2004, 5:45pm
Yup, melatonin does it for me, too.  0.5mg regular release at bedtime.  Saved my life.

Pegase, I think it's available OTC in Canada now.  Here you can get it at any vitamin shop or drugstore.  It's very cheap.

Your body makes a minute quantity so I suggest starting at 0.5mg and working your way up in 0.5mg or 1mg incements.  18mg is a rather large dose, I've read about 12mg.  Even 0.5mg is a lot more than your body makes on its own.  Take too much and it an cause a headache.

And remember, just because it's OTC doesn't mean it's not a real drug.  It's a hormone and has some mighty powerful effects in your skull.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 29th, 2004, 6:38pm

on 03/29/04 at 04:37:41, M8895 wrote:
I've been on Depakote too and it took too damn long to work for me.  I couldn't take the wait.  I was on it for a little over 2 months 200mg a day.  The only thing that I walked a way from with it was 20 lbs... Lil liz I'm sory to hear that you are in such bad pain.  right now :( I'm right there with you.  I've not come out of my bout at all since we have last spoken.  I'm still on Topomax 200mg a day and it isn't doing diddly squat.  I'm getting hit 5 or 6 times a night and as you know I'm Chronic and also that o2 does not work for me.  I also suck it straight from the tube.  I'm taking DHE, Toradol and Compazine IM and nothing is touching these things. Vibes to all of you and keep fighting!  I've been head banging fiercly.  On March 19th I had my first Botox treatment and so far nothing.  I also went to the Chiropractor March 20th (desperate for anything).  I got a massage the other day.  Hang in there guy's.  I say that I can't take this much more either but what the hell else can we do?  We've got to fight.  Connie


Hey Connie...sorry I didn't respond sooner.  Got distracted by some stuff. :)  I just did want to tell you that for me, the botox took something like 8 weeks before I noticed any effect.  Long time to wait for clusters, but hey if it helps and gives you a little pain free time...even if it is way off in the distance...then maybe it's worth it!!  How come they use botox for clusters again?  I thought botox was generally used for headaches that could be associated with muscle tension?  I got my 3 courses of botox back when all I had was NDPH, but only the 1st course of it did any good.  :-/

I know they always say for the migraine meds that they could take up to 3 months to work well, but it is too long to wait when dealing with CH!!!  Next week when I go back to my doc, I'm gonna tell him that he needs to hook me up with something that's actually gonna help because playing around with these tricyclics and verapamil alone is not doing it!!

Hang in there!!!
Hugz, Lizzie :)
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 29th, 2004, 7:39pm

on 03/29/04 at 17:45:50, t_h_b wrote:
Yup, melatonin does it for me, too.  0.5mg regular release at bedtime.  Saved my life.

Pegase, I think it's available OTC in Canada now.  Here you can get it at any vitamin shop or drugstore.  It's very cheap.

Your body makes a minute quantity so I suggest starting at 0.5mg and working your way up in 0.5mg or 1mg incements.  18mg is a rather large dose, I've read about 12mg.  Even 0.5mg is a lot more than your body makes on its own.  Take too much and it an cause a headache.

And remember, just because it's OTC doesn't mean it's not a real drug.  It's a hormone and has some mighty powerful effects in your skull.


The stuff I got is 3mg per pill.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by PittsburghJoe on Mar 29th, 2004, 7:43pm
One thing about melatonin:

It's considered a supplement, and therefore isn't FDA regulated. Therefore effective dosages from brand to brand are not standard. So the effect you may get from 1g of one brand may not be the same as 1g of another brand.

Everything I've read from medical reports re clusters says 9mg, so that's what I'm trying. Hopefully tonight will go better, since I have a job interview in the morning. Fingers crossed!

Joe
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 29th, 2004, 10:48pm
Don't be skeered! Double up!

I'm no doc, but I'm skeptical that too much melatonin could do serious damage, and if you want to sleep, well... 18mg did it for me, and it's gonna do it tonight too, or at least I'm gonna try. Maybe I'll just go with 15 and see how that does me...
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Mar 30th, 2004, 12:19pm
I don't know if it was the deciding factor, but 15mg was not quite as effective. While it helped a bit, I had to get up 4 times. Back to 18 for tonight.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by t_h_b on Mar 30th, 2004, 5:55pm

on 03/29/04 at 19:39:02, Superpain wrote:
The stuff I got is 3mg per pill.


I tried taking 3mg SR with my 0.5mg several times to help with sleep.  That gave me a non-CH headache.  You can find 0.5mg or 1mg in many stores.  I got my 0.5mg at a vitamin shop.  When I first started taking melatonin I was doing 0.3mg but couldn't find any that dose when I ran out so got 0.5mg and found that it worked much better for me than the 0.3mg--fewer shadows and other disturbances at "cluster times".

The melatonin isn't a CURE--I still get hit about half the time I drink alcohol and I had a shadow the other day for no reason I could think of. A couple of weeks ago I started getting hit at work and took Imitrex, lidocaine and Neosaldina (which has caffeine & an NSAID).  

Rarely, I still feel funny at my old attack times during the day and every once in a blue moon will wake up at attack times at night.  O2 and Imitrex have taken care of all the real attacks I've had so far.  I had one shadow that 02 and Imitrex couldn't help.  Hell, that might have been my sinuses!
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by cleon on Mar 30th, 2004, 11:26pm
Sleep-Wake Cycle
Serotonin activity in the brainstem is highest while we are wide awake and absent during REM sleep, the period of sleep in which we are actively dreaming. During REM sleep, when serotonin function is close to nil, we are temporarily paralyzed, since serotonin is necessary for initiating voluntary muscle movement. This is an important "safety feature" provided by serotonin, since without it we would attempt to act out our dreams, hurting ourselves and possibly others. As we wake up in the morning, serotonin activity increases, providing us with "get-up-and-go," literally and figuratively. Since sleep and mood are both regulated by serotonin, mood problems tend to bring sleep problems with them, either insomnia or hypersomnia (oversleeping). People with low serotonin have been found to spend less time in non-REM sleep, the longest part of the normal sleep cycle. Restless leg syndrome, the annoying muscle twitches and restlessness that interfere with sleep, has also been related to low serotonin functioning.
During the night, serotonin is metabolized by the brain to create melatonin, a very important neurohormone you may have read about it. Between them they regulate the sleep-wake cycle, keeping us alert during the daylight hours and allowing us to sleep at night.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Giovanni on Mar 31st, 2004, 5:33pm
Hey Superpain,

Why not try some 5-HTP (up to 300 mg per day--available at GNC or other vitamin stores) during the day and cut back to 9mg of melatonin at night and see what happens.  You can't take 5-HTP with anti depressants--read warnings on certain drug combinations with 5-HTP.  Some B-complex 50s a couple time a day would be helpful, I believe.

John  
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by NYRenee on Apr 5th, 2004, 12:12pm
I finally broke down and purchased the melatonin, but I could only find 1mg and 3mg at the store I was at.....so I figured get the 3mg and if isn't enough then my boyfriend can up his dosage.  He tried it for 3 days in a row, took one 3mg, and had no relief, very little sleep, was restless and a matter of fact he said he felt worse than he did before.  Now it was only three days, and he had been getting over a sinus infection, so maybe it was the wrong time to take it because he was sick, wrong mg perhaps? I told him he should try it again when he's completly over the sinus infection because he only took the melatonin for 3 days and in previous posts people have mentioned you need to give it some time.

However, I'm wondering has anybody had an opposite reaction to this stuff, being restless and not at all sleepy, as he won't try it again for fear he will have another bad night and he's so sleep deprived right now and really I can't blame him.  Any thoughts?

NYRenee
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Opus on Apr 5th, 2004, 12:54pm
Renee,
  It seems everyone needs a different level to stop there CH, so far it's between .5 and 18mg, studies show that 9mg works, but for me it didn't help until I reached 15mg, He probably should get the 1 mg tabs and increase 1mg a night until they don't work as well, the degrease until they work the best. It is important to find he correct dose, then stay on that until the end of cycle, I still have bad days, and I have been getting hit every night after a week of PF time, but the CH's never get over a 5 and I am back to sleep in 15 after aborting. If the melatonin makes keeps making things worse then stop.

Opus/Paul
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by t_h_b on Apr 5th, 2004, 9:20pm
Renee, I recommend that people start with 0.5mg and work their way up because melatonin can have side effects such as you describe and I have read in a couple of places on the internet that too much might not work where less would.  It's a hormone that is produced by the body rather than a medication foreign to the body.  Our CH brains are already screwed up so it would seem prudent to be cautious about supplementing the hormones it produces.  More isn't always better.

To give melatonin a fair chance to work, he needs to try the range of doses and it makes more sense to start with the smallest dose than the largest.  Remember, the body only makes a minute amount.  It would be a shame for 18mg to do nothing and to give up when 0.5mg would control the CH.  I suspect that this has been the case with some of the people who tried the high doses and then decided it didn't work.

That being said, regardless of the reasons, melatonin hasn't worked for everyone who has tried it.  However, for the people it helps, it  works well.  Like Opus said, those I know about are on a range of doses.  It may have to do with varying absorption rates from person to person.

Also consider that if the melatonin has an effect, good or bad, it might mean that it's just a matter of hitting the right dose.

It would also be prudent for him to discuss this with his MD even though melatonin is OTC.

I am also curious if Floridian or some other super-duper research expert knows:
a. how much the body makes
b. how well it is absorbed orally and
c. how excess melatonin is eliminated.  

I'm not sure those answers are out there.  When researching in the past, I did find a company that makes a couple of different tests for melatonin levels but I haven't discussed this with my MD yet.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Apr 6th, 2004, 1:42am
I got the resltess effect at lower doses too.
3mg's makes for very restless sleep for me.
18mg did the job though! If he's not scared, just try it one night and see if it works. I didn't have to wait ANY nights for it to take effect. It was the first, best sleep I'd gotten in months. I'm on pred and verap right now, so I'm sleeping ok for the most part, and I'm not sure if it's good to take the melatonin and verap together so I've slowed down, but if it gets bad again, I'll be eating those things like M&M's. ;)

Just my experience.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by floridian on Apr 6th, 2004, 11:10am

Quote:

a. how much the body makes  
b. how well it is absorbed orally and  
c. how excess melatonin is eliminated.


a.  Not sure how much the body makes. Lots of studies showing blood levels at various times of the day or night, but couldn't find estimates of total daily production.

b. - Oral absorption is relatively low - 1% to 37% in one study, 15% in another study. Females absorbed 3x more melatonin than males in the first study.

c. - Some is absorbed by tissues and stored or consumed.   Much is eliminated in the urine - as melatonin and sulfated / oxidized melatonin.   The half life of melatonin in the body is around 40 minutes -  a 1 mg dose would be around 0.5 mg after 40 minutes, 0.25 mg after 80 minutes, 0.125 mg after  120 minutes, etc.


COFFEE decreases melatonin production! and !reduces sleep quality!!  Whodave guessed??  ;)



Quote:
Sleep Med. 2002 May;3(3):271-3.
   The effects of coffee consumption on sleep and melatonin secretion.

   Shilo L, Sabbah H, Hadari R, Kovatz S, Weinberg U, Dolev S, Dagan Y, Shenkman L.

   Department of Medicine C, Meir Hospital, Sapir Medical Center, and the Sackler School of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Kfar-Saba 44281, Israel. lotansh@ccsg.tau.ac.il

   BACKGROUND: In this study we examined the effects of caffeine on sleep quality and melatonin secretion. Melatonin is the principal hormone responsible for synchronization of sleep. Melatonin secretion is controlled by neurotransmitters that can be affected by caffeine. METHODS: In the first part of the study, six volunteers drank either decaffeinated or regular coffee in a double-blind fashion on one day, and the alternate beverage 7 days later. Sleep parameters were assessed by actigraphy. In the second part of the study, the subjects again drank either decaffeinated or regular coffee, and they then collected urine every 3h for quantitation of 6-sulphoxymelatonin (6-SMT), the main metabolite of melatonin in the urine. RESULTS: We found that drinking regular caffeinated coffee, compared to decaffeinated coffee, caused a decrease in the total amount of sleep and quality of sleep, and an increase in the length of time of sleep induction. Caffeinated coffee caused a decrease in 6-SMT excretion throughout the following night. CONCLUSIONS: The results of our study confirm the widely held belief that coffee consumption interferes with sleep quantity and quality. In addition, we found that the consumption of caffeine decreases 6-SMT excretion. Individuals who suffer from sleep abnormalities should avoid caffeinated coffee during the evening hours.


Sitting in front of a computer monitor all day can cut your melatonin production in half.  (This study was done on 'normal' people, but we already know that melatonin production is very low in clusterheads, probably due to other factors).


Quote:
Pathol Biol (Paris). 2003 Apr;51(3):143-6.
   [Video screen exposure and 6-sulfatoxymelatonin urinary excretion in women]

   Santini R, Messagier R, Claustrat B, Fillion-Robin M, Youbicier-Simo BJ.

   Institut national des sciences appliquees, batiment Louis-Pasteur, 20, avenue Albert-Einstein, 69621 Villeurbanne, France. rsantini@insa-lyon.fr

   A study in blind conditions was conducted on 13 women (mean age < 30 years). Six women worked at least four hours per day, five days a week, since more than one month, in front of a video screen constituted the exposed group. Radioimmunoassay of 6-sulfatoxymelatonin was done on urine collected during night. Results were analysed by a non parametric rank-test (Mann-Withney). It was observed an important (- 54%) and significant lower level (p < 0.01) of 6-sulfatoxymelatonin in urine of women exposed to video screen.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by t_h_b on Apr 6th, 2004, 7:41pm
Foridian, I really appreciate your input on this.  Thanks for keeping us up to date and for sniffing out an info request buried in a thread!
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Edski_1 on Apr 10th, 2004, 10:29am

on 03/29/04 at 14:31:46, Superpain wrote:
When I lived in Missouri, where I had a good portion of my cycles, my next door neighbor had a huge welding shop stocked with plenty of O2, but I didn't know...


I don't think it would be a good idea to use Welding supply Oxygen...you need Medical Grade O2 which is MUCH more pure.  The general welding O2 will have large amounts of oil and dirt and crap in it and can be VERY DANGEROUS.

O2 from an Analytical Laboratory is probably the same grade as Medical O2, but the welder's stuff is dirt in comparison.  Totally different usage, totally different QA/QC involved in packaging it.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Apr 11th, 2004, 5:04am

on 04/10/04 at 10:29:40, Edski_1 wrote:
I don't think it would be a good idea to use Welding supply Oxygen...you need Medical Grade O2 which is MUCH more pure.  The general welding O2 will have large amounts of oil and dirt and crap in it and can be VERY DANGEROUS.

O2 from an Analytical Laboratory is probably the same grade as Medical O2, but the welder's stuff is dirt in comparison.  Totally different usage, totally different QA/QC involved in packaging it.



Sorry... But that's bullshit. ;)
2 molecules of oxygen = 2 molecules of oxygen...
It's science. O2 is O2...
It's as simple as that.

Assuming you have a new welder's O2 tank to eliminate any question of preexisting contaminates, which would be highly unlikely to exist anyway, what exactly is the difference?

I guarantee there are many people here that would like to know if such a danger does exist and can be documented or proven beyond "required warnings" or preconcieved ideas about the sound of using "welders" O2.

Because it did miracles for me and I know I'm not alone. I appreciate your concern and warning, but your fears are unfounded. But if you can provide information to the contrary I'd be glad to read it. All I have now is personal experience and less headaches.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by floridian on Apr 11th, 2004, 11:44am
This info is from a scuba shop - it talks about lung problems that can occur when oil from a compressor gets into your tank, and your lungs.  I don't know how much oil is in the average welders O2 cylinder, but my guess is that it is probably more than in a medical O2 cylinder.

Oil (condensable hydrocarbon mist/vapor) and Particulate Matter -- Inhaling hydrocarbon based oils from improperly maintained oil lubricated compressors can cause a serious inflammation of the lungs, known as lipoid pneumonia. Inhaling very fine particulate matter has been associated with respiratory and cardiac problems, infections and asthma attacks. Particulates also clog inlet filters of SCUBA regulator first stages, causing poor performance and increased breathing effort. The build up of oils and particulates in a SCUBA cylinder can provide the fuel and source of ignition for combustion inside the cylinder during filling, introducing the possibility of severe contamination.

Most compressors use oil, but Fill Express uses a food-grade synthetic lubricant which eliminates many of the health and safety concerns of oil lubricated compressors. Regardless of the type of lubricant, even with various filters, it is still possible for lubrication or fine particulates to be present in the compressed gases. These contaminants can condense on storage bank walls and in gas lines. Re-introduction into the gas flow stream from build up in storage banks can then occur at a later time. Sampling procedures involve connecting a filter assembly to a fill whip at our fill station and passing a known amount of a large volume of gas through a pre-weighed filter. The total weight of material trapped is then measured.

http://www.fillexpress.com/library/pedigree.shtml#oil
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Apr 11th, 2004, 4:00pm
That's interesting.
So contamination can even happen in scuba tanks...
I'd be interested to see how different welding supply places stack up as far as contaminates...
But frankly I'm not worried about it.
I'd suck on a dead donkey dick if it killed a headache, so a little grease is nothing. ;) [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by BobG on Apr 12th, 2004, 4:57pm

on 04/11/04 at 11:44:37, floridian wrote:
This info is from a scuba shop - it talks about lung problems that can occur when oil from a compressor gets into your tank, and your lungs.  I don't know how much oil is in the average welders O2 cylinder, but my guess is that it is probably more than in a medical O2 cylinder.
At SCUBA shops the tanks are filled with air, not oxygen. But that doesn't matter here. What matters is if any oil gets into the tank. If it does the shop should be reported to health authorities for breaking a big time law and before they kill someone.
As for welding O2 compared to medical O2, if a welding supplier was selling contaminated (oil, rust, dirt, water) O2 the professional welder would immediatly know is was bad and never buy there again. Money talking here.
The truth is medical oxygen and welding oxygen comes from the same pumps/filters/compressors. Only the packaging is different. Medical tanks are inspected more often and at higher standards than welders. But start with a new tank and you won't have a problem
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Redd715 on Apr 12th, 2004, 6:54pm
...so I'm starting week 6 of this pain and the no sleep at night....I don't think I want to wait any longer to actually have a uninterupted nights sleep...my ass is dragging as it is.  For those of you who it helped to "sleep threw" or whatever...please aslo respond with how much you weigh and your effective dosage.  Wondering if that may have some logic behind the differeing effective dosages? :-/
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by HypnoticFreddy on Apr 12th, 2004, 7:33pm
Hello everybody,

I have a question regarding Melatonin.

Are the Neuros and other doctors high on Melatonin? Meaning do they precsribe it or add it as a supplement often?

I ask because from so many of you, it seems to be they should.

                                         -Freddy
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by thomas on Apr 13th, 2004, 9:05am
No, melatonin was my idea.  But my neuro went along with it, just like he does with everything I want to try. ;;D
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Superpain on Apr 13th, 2004, 3:49pm

on 04/12/04 at 18:54:11, Redd715 wrote:
...so I'm starting week 6 of this pain and the no sleep at night....I don't think I want to wait any longer to actually have a uninterupted nights sleep...my ass is dragging as it is.  For those of you who it helped to "sleep threw" or whatever...please aslo respond with how much you weigh and your effective dosage.  Wondering if that may have some logic behind the differeing effective dosages? :-/


I'm 6'5" 220lb... And 18mg worked good for me. Lower doses were either innefective, or actually made me feel agitated and restless.
Title: Re: Melatonin
Post by Giovanni on Apr 13th, 2004, 7:17pm
My son-in-law introduced me to melatonin last June (2003).  I had posted about my amazing results with 9mg ending my cycle one month early.  Since then, I have seen several post about doctors telling their CH patients to try it.

John


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