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Title: A thought about shrooms... Post by daver on Mar 23rd, 2004, 10:17am Hi all.... I am an episodic CH.com user, sorry to say, but I generally only visit this site when I'm suffering. I know I should be more diligent about giving the support that I always find here when I need it the most. Thanks to all that dedicate so much time to these boards. A bit of background....was chronic for many many years, then went episodic after (hate to say it...) quitting smoking. But the beast remaind and visits me every 6 months to remind me that he's still around. I have never really taken meds for my CHs for a couple of reasons; 1. when I was chronic I couldn't find a doctor that knew what the hell I was takling about. This led to a funny range of different scripts from pain medicine to heart medication to treat my "tension headaches' as they were initially diagnosed. 2. When I did finally get a proper diagnosis, the choice of treatments were horrendous, bad drugs with worse side effects. I've never been fond of powerfull drugs especially coupled with the thought of continued use. And this brings me to my point (yes I do have one...lol). After finding this board and hearing all the comments regarding the different therapies available, it's striking to read how negatively virtually all of them affect people. From side effects, to cost, to ease (or lack of ease) of use, and the end result always seems the same...partial temporary relief. Then along came the shroom therapy, a drug that people do recreationally. Side effects include feeling happy and giggling too much for an couple of hours. Results from many that have tried it is complete relief and a breaking of the cycle....WOW! sound too good to be true? what's the catch?...well they are an illegal substance in most countries. Unfortunately this has put a stigma around the therapy because people think they must be dangerous and carry with them the aura of drug dealers, junkies and the idea of finding yourself on the show "Cops". My guess is that most people here are NOT regular drug users so the thought of taking shrooms is a bit daunting. The strange thing is lots of people have no problem taking extremly potent medications that negatively affect them, yet are uncomfortable about ingesting a mushroom which are harmless. Damn social stigma keeping so many people in pain. Shrooms have done the trick for me so far, I stopped my last cycle in it's tracks and have been pain free months (all for about $20!) I would urge anyone to try it, it's effective, safe and I can assure you it won't lead to a 'life outside the law'. Faced with the alternatives...it was an easy choice for me Dave (sorry for the long post) |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Rock_Lobster on Mar 23rd, 2004, 10:51am If you had to put it into a nutshell, what do I buy? I follow the links on the clusterbusters site, and I find 100 different things I can pick up. Great site, but information overload. Which 2 (or 3 or 4) things must I purchase? Thanks Daver. I am all over this. Today. Point me. Rock |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:11am I guess many people have different ways to look at things. I'm episodic and have some choices. Last cluster I decided to try shrooms. Side effects included chills, shaking, paranoia, and a generally unpleasant 6 hours. Results - nada. Didn't phase the cluster attacks. Cost - probably $50 in supplies and about 10 weeks of growing and tending. Eventually went back to O2 and cafergot. Side effects - chilly fingers and toes from the cafergot. Results - knocked out every attack in minutes with nothing going above a 3 or 4. Cost - $5 copay. Also no risk of using illegal substances. Guess it's all in the way you look at things. We can all paint a picture the way we want it to appear. Point is, there are more ways than just my way or your way. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by daver on Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:44am I went about it a little differently then on the Clusterbusters.com site, only because I was getting them from a friend of a friend, etc... The fellow had shrooms, I wasn't going to be choosy about what type they were. :D Didn't have a scale either so I decided to err on the light side if any, so I picked a piece of stem (diameter of a pencil) about 3 inches long and ate it. Easy as that. I felt a little buzzed but barely noticeable. All pain gone in minutes. I dosed again 3 days later, then again 3 days after that. I noticed immediate relief, then some shadowing after a day or two, then some CHs again, but after day 6 or so they were gone. From what I understand, it's different for everyone but I didn't need a 4th dose. But don't think of it as complicated...you get the shrooms, you eat them. Easy-peasy! If you want to dose again be sure to wait 3 days. That's the extent of my experience...hope it helps, let me know how it goes. Dave |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by daver on Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:51am Bob P Absolutely right! If there is anything certain about CHs is that there is nothing certain about them. Everybody reacts to things differently, sorry to hear shrooms didn't work for you, glad to hear something else did. I'm not trying to paint any picture here....just relaying what worked for me. Bottom line is...whatever works for you. Dave |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by miapet on Mar 23rd, 2004, 2:58pm cafergot scared the (hmmm, what's a nice word??) . . .out of me . . . .and with D's cycle, the 'safe' dose isn't enough to last the week . . . watch your fingers and toes . . .and be sure to keep track of your entire vascular system . . .I think all the drugs are scarey with the potential to cause some serious harm to everyone. . .so what do we (y'all) do?? Weigh the pros and cons . . .and use what works for you . . .please be safe . . .you're all wonderful people. miapet |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by pubgirl on Mar 23rd, 2004, 3:12pm Totally great warning there miapet! Ergotamine and Cafergot need to be very closely monitored. At our last Ch presentation we were told (and at least I thought it was interesting ) that Sumatriptan was developed because they knew that there was an active ingredient in Ergotamine which helped cure vascular headaches, but Ergotamine was causing gangrene in extremities in users and was too "dirty" for consistently safe long term use. Hence they developed a designer drug from it and Imitrex/gran was born! Wendy |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2004, 4:32pm I've used cafergot for probably the past 25 years worth of clusters. I always take 2 to 3 times the allowed amount (20-30 tabs a week). Taken it for cluster bouts up to 15 weeks long. Never had a problem. I do watch my digets to make sure they aren't turning black. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 23rd, 2004, 5:29pm on 03/23/04 at 11:11:55, Bob P wrote:
Wow Bob, an unpleasant 6 hours!!! I'd have chucked the whole idea too. Wouldn't want to live though 6 more unpleasant hours!! shit!! :( on 03/23/04 at 11:11:55, Bob P wrote:
You forgot to mention the worst side effect......the clusters continue with NO hope of stopping them until THEY want to stop. Does that $5.00 copay cover all future prescriptions? One co-pay covers all the cafergot and 02 you'll ever need? Man, can I have the name of your insurance carrier? ;;D Look Bob, I know everyone paints their own picture, biased with their own pallet of colors....I also know you're hoping to try the shrooms again in the future. I hope they work this time and we'll all do whatever we can to help. There are no guarantees and none of us are trying to sell some miracle cure. Everyone should do what will give THEM the best quality of life based upon all the choices available. This is not a "my way or the highway." I've heard that a couple of times and that couldn't be further from the truth. If anyone is giving you that impression (and I guess we are or you wouldn't feel that way) then I'm sorry. I could say something like, "you can eat cafergot every day for the rest of your life for all I care," but that is not something I would say or even feel. We CARE about people with clusters and we DON"T want people to eat cafergot or anything else for that matter every day for the rest of their lives. We don't want people having their brains probed, their veins collapsing from all the shots, their vascular systems destroyed by steroids. IF this is something that will help people, we want to give them some information and THEY can make their own "educated" decisions. We don't feel that "settling" for only kips 3's and 4's and being able to control them with 02 needs to be the best people can hope for. There "might" be something out there that will make their lives better. Plain and simple. Do I need to start asking people to stop being so publicly happy when their cycles end? Why should they be any more quiet than anyone else when their cycles end? Why should they be made to feel like they're saying "my way or the highway" when they want to let people know what helped them and what might help others? Did you write anyone a letter that had an abstract published that said the same about deep brain probes? It just seems to me that you have a distorted picture of what clusterbusters is all about. Had you joined us when you got your invitation.....which was in the very FIRST set of invitations, maybe you'd have a different view. When and if you decide to try the treatment again, if we can help, just ask. I promise we'll do everything we can to make it successful. Everyone is a little different and there are many more people from which to draw upon their own circumstances, than were available when you tried it the first time. Just as some people get some relief at 240mg of verapamil, and it takes 960mg for others, it sometimes takes more than one dose of shrooms before the cycle breaks. PF |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Edski_1 on Mar 23rd, 2004, 5:54pm This issue is not unique for CH suffers. Other disease suffers sometimes are faced with tough decisions about controversial treatments that are illegal/banned where they live that the patient/family deem are their only/last/best shots... What surprises me about the whole mushroom/LSD commotion is that so many of the current meds for CH and migraines are already derived from hallucinogenic or near hallucinogenic compounds. Why is the idea of using these two such a profound departure from using ergotamine? For God's sake, ergot-ergotamine-LSD???? See the connection? I just read the other night that Albert Hoffman was looking for a cure for "headaches" when he first synthesized LSD... Certainly ANY medical treatment is going to have it's drawbacks...and we are all attuned to the fact that some people will se results with some meds and some won't. I can't say for sure, but I doubt there have been any cases of gangrene from cafergot-I was scared about that when taking cafergot, too. But I'm aware that there is a risk. The same thing can be said about any of the triptans...there is a risk they can cause some funky cardiac effects. Some people on these boards have experienced those effects. So have to agree with Pinkfloyd. There is never an easy answer, or a one-size-fits-all solution. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by FZfan on Mar 23rd, 2004, 6:01pm My take, It has been widely stated many times that there is no "magic bullet". For every treatment available, there is someone or usually several, who get no benefit at all while others get spectacular success. The example for me would be imitrex injections. They do nothing for my ch, but o2 does. How weird is that? Yet many people swear by them, and rightfully so. Some people get no benfit from o2. For me, it is a wonder drug. (well, not really a drug, but "wonder gas" just didn't sound right) In my opinion, being episodic gives one more options. Since I know, roughly, when my cycle will end, I have the option of riding it out with fewer, or even no meds. That is a much tougher option for a chronic. Having said that, I have read with great interest many of the shroom posts and have lurked a little at clusterbusters. Unless everyone is lying, which I don't believe at all, there is record of success that can't be ignored. The stigma of being illegal will be a tough one for some folks to grapple with. I understand this. Today's society has been indoctrinated to believe that illegal drugs are the absolute worse thing you could ever become involved with. The reality is, nothing could be further from the truth. Legal drugs have harmed and killed far more people than all the illegal drugs in the world combined many times over. To be honest, had I got my hands on some shrooms during my last cycle, and I did try, I'd have been at clusterbusters finishing my reading, and having some tea. If the worst that could happen is a bad trip, well, dancing with the demon makes a bad trip look like a walk in the park. But, as Dennis Miller used to say on his HBO show, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2004, 6:11pm Quote:
Just giving both sides of the picture. There isn't anywhere in my post that I say don't take shrooms. Damn, yooze guys are really touchy! Quote:
I sure get the feeling that every time I try to give the whole picture, I can expect to receive one of these kinds of responses form at least one 'buster'. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Giovanni on Mar 23rd, 2004, 6:23pm Being a former probation officer one can imagine what I went through before trying the alternative treatment. The fact is I was tired of nearly half of my life being ruined by these things and placing my family through my many mood swing with steriods, dopeymax, everything,and nothing relieving my pain except multiple doses of imitrex. I was to the point I would do or try anything that might work. I am now pain free for the first time in YEARS for this time of year. Will I stay way? I don't know. For now I am very happy and pleased with this treatment and have zero side effects. Thanks to the clusterbusters. John |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by eyes_afire on Mar 23rd, 2004, 6:53pm For some of us it's a matter of taking the path of least resistance. It's not a matter of right or wrong or controversy. When I came here, there was enuff convincing evidence to give it a try so I jumped all over the stuff (why the hell not). After dosing every 5 to 7 days for 3 months straight (around 14 or 15 rock solid doses following strict guidelines) I have drawn the following tentative conclusions about my experience: 1. On a 'per dose basis', it was the most effective treatment I've tried. This is sobered by the fact that I couldn't take larger doses to have an even greater impact on my CH (I found myself in outer space a few times) and that I couldn't take any other meds. 2. Was it a cure? No Fucking Way, but it was a very impressive treatment. It certainly helped me survive. I'm so convinced that even though I'm not currently shrooming, I still support it and will certainly consider it in the future. My only regret is that I wish it had a more lasting effect than only 5 to 7 days. 3. If I was a 3 to 4 month episodic every 2 years, based on MY experience, my desire to shroom would be greatly diminished (or non-existant)... it simply wouldn't make good logistical sense. I think that's all BobP is trying to say. As it stands right now, I'm a 6 to 13 month episodic/chronic(??) with a currently angry beast, so nothing's out of the cards. As Edski pointed out, there is much history on hallucinogens, and psilocybin pills have even been synthesized: http://www.stainblue.com/ah.html http://www.stainblue.com/ --- Steve |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by MarkV2 on Mar 23rd, 2004, 7:14pm Just to keep in mind, stigma aside, a lot of employers these days require drug testing, which may rule out this alternative for some individuals |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Bob P on Mar 23rd, 2004, 7:17pm Guess what I'm saying is that it's a treatment that doesn't work for everyone. You need to decide if you're willing to go without meds and endure attacks to get to a treatment that may or may not work. You have to weigh it against the severity of your clusters. If I can pop a tab of ergot and strap on the mask for 10 minutes, I'm ok with that. I'll try the shrooms again but more for the curiosity / science part of it than because I think it's a better treatment than what I already do. Bottom line is I just want to make sure everyone knows that it may not work for them. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by 9erfan on Mar 23rd, 2004, 7:36pm It's true, every person has to do what's right for them. I for one read about shrooms on this site for 2 years before breaking down & trying them. My hesitation was not because of the legal issues but more because of my fear of "tripping". My fears were unfounded. I have yet to have an uncomfortable or scary trip thanks to the advice I've gotten on clusterbusters. With that said, I am not pain-free yet. After my 3rd try dosing I did feel SIGNIFICANT improvement in my h/a's (I'm chronic) but unfortunately I was out of shrooms and by the time I got some more it was like starting all over again. I do have hope that this treatment will work for me. I know that everyone is different in their feelings about this drug, I can only put in my .02. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by daver on Mar 23rd, 2004, 8:15pm Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread alive! My intent was to try to share my experience with shrooms and hopefully, by discussing some of the barriers that keep people from trying them, make everyone a little more comfortable about the therapy. This isn't about 'my therapy's better than yours' but, has almost everyone has stated one way or another in their posts, it's about what works for me. The great thing about this site is the sharing of information. I owe heaps of gratitiude to everyone who contributed in the past and discussed what they felt worked and what didn't. Before I found this site a few years back I quite frankly felt there were no options available. So thanks again guys and gals....hope everyone finds their relief. dave |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flounder on Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:21pm on 03/23/04 at 19:14:51, MarkV2 wrote:
The first thing to know about mushrooms and drug tests is that psilocybin and psilocin, the primary psychoactive substances in psilocybe mushrooms, are not commonly tested for in the standard drug test. The basic drug test, currently used for nearly all corporate and sports testing programs, checks for 5 types of substances Cannabinoids (marijuana, hash) Cocaine (cocaine, crack, benzoylecognine) Amphetamines (amphetamines, methamphetamines, speed) Opiates (heroin, opium, codeine, morphine) Phencyclidine (PCP) Even the extended employment drug tests used by most companies do not test for the presence of psilocybin or psilocin or LSD. (Shroomery) Most probation drug tests don't even test for psilocybin. I am an employer and we have to test our truck drivers to comply with the DOT. I myself have a CDL and am tested periodically. DOT UA's don't test for these substances either. The ones that do are very expensive and I don't know a company that would pay to have them done. Just thought I would clear that up. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 24th, 2004, 12:38am Go ahead Bob....just keep pushing the right buttons...I'll play. Just so you know, that I know, that you know.. ;) on 03/23/04 at 19:17:39, Bob P wrote:
Do you post this public service announcement after every post regarding the use of verapamil, depakote, lithium, prednisone, 02 et. al.? Everytime someone new pops in, these are the first ones always suggested and rarely comes with a disclaimer. People just post, "try this, it worked for me, and is what many people have use with good results." I've been reading about shrooms here for years and I may have missed one, but I don't recall EVER seeing someone state that shrooms work for everyone. But, if you feel the desire to post the disclaimer, thats fine. It IS the truth, plus it saves me a lot of typing time. I appreciate you pushing this button though, it always allows for a good discussion. Push away. on 03/23/04 at 19:17:39, Bob P wrote:
You're an easy man to please. Must make for a happy life. Guess thats a good thing for all involved. Do you get a lot of ties for Christmas? I'm not sure what you're saying here though. Is it that your cycle is not severe? If so, are you saying it's not severe before or after taking the ergots and 02? You really only want to try and break the cycle for science? You wouldn't be happy to break the cycle??? (I've looked at all the smilies and just can't seem to find one that fits here...damn) Anyone else here that you think may have a cluster cycle that isn't severe enough to want to try to break the cycle? If you're ok with getting the same number of attacks, but with a lower intensity and shorter duration, that's cool. If you're ok with popping all that ergot and taking an 02 tank everywhere....thats cool. To each his own, honestly. I know you go through remission periods and if there isn't much difference in your life between remission and medicated cycles....that's cool. Maybe your insurance company would prefer you to try to break the cycle early though. I'm sure your pharmacist thinks thats cool. They "used" to love me too. on 03/23/04 at 19:17:39, Bob P wrote:
So, if you try it out of curiosity, and you happen to break the cycle, will you then go with maintenance doses to stop future cycles or will you prefer to go back into a cycle and to the ergots and 02 next time, since there is no difference? (Try to answer at least this one for me will ya. You guys never answer my questions :( ) on 03/23/04 at 19:17:39, Bob P wrote:
I'll be sure to look for this PSA on some of the other threads. It IS important that everyone knows this is the truth about ALL the treatments at this point. It'll be interesting to see it included in your next "ergots and 02" post. BTW, Bob, we aren't touchy at all. I know thats another of the buttons you like to push, but it's not true. We just want people to know that it doesn't always work for everyone but it does work for many. Any time you push a button that allows us to get out the story, all I can say is thanks. ;;D PF |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flash on Mar 24th, 2004, 6:47am whoa and I'm supposed to be the bad cop... BobP I don't have much of a problem with what you have posted. I remember that you were the first person here to take me seriously. There are just a couple of things that I'd like to clear up: First off a, could you (or anyone else) dig out your posts from the time you tried the treatment. My memory is usually pretty good, and as I recall you initially stated that either this cycle was the lamest ever or the shrooms had effected it in some way. I read the implication as the shrooms had altered things. I also recall that the attacks were less regular. The other thing I recall is that you commenced a course of predisone quite early in the episode, perhaps even during the first week. You did continue with shrooms after initiating the predisone, but subsequent to the predisone you made no mroe positive reports on the shrooms. We now believe from a good many anecdotal reports that predisone greatly impairs the shroom treatment. Predisone appears to be a common cause of failure with the treatment. The final thing is I'd like to ask you a question. In your opinion was that last episode significantly lamer than average? Do you feel that your medications were more effective than usual, or that they brought attacks under control much sooner? I ask this because we also have a lot of evidence that shrooms increase the impact of O2 and verapamil. BTW I have no beef with you commencing other treatments whilst trying the shrooms. It's your body! However I would like you to make it clear exactly how long you persisted with dosing whilst clear of other medications. Should you choose to try this treatment again, then I repeat my suggestion that you go for a preventative dose. My recollection is that your episodes are pretty much like clockwork. Take some shrooms 3 months before kick off and see if an episode materialises. Should you require to take shrooms during the episode, or decide to wait until the episode, then we have been trying out a new sipping method that keeps attacks under control between larger doses. It may even be that the sipping method is more effective - it's to early to say, but we are convinced that it has a noticable positive effect. Flash |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Rock_Lobster on Mar 24th, 2004, 8:36am Interesting, but... Spores.... Ecuador or B+, or 2 of each, or something else altogether? How long will the finished product keep? Like... dry them, then vacuum seal, then store, perhaps in a freezer. Thanks! Rock Lobstah |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by daver on Mar 24th, 2004, 9:23am Rock....sounds like you're planning to grow. I don't have any experience with that, I got mine pre-made... There are a lot of sites on the internet that describe the best ways to grow, dry and store them once they have grown. d. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flash on Mar 24th, 2004, 9:58am OK I've dug out the links to your previous experience with the shrooms Bob P: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/110390.html http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/111139.html http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/111020.html You took the shrooms on the Saturday and started Predisone on the Monday. So only 1 dose and 2 days before commencing the dread pred. That's not even into the settling down period. Back then we had no reason to suspect that Pred would interfere. Yours was the first instance we had on Pred and shrooms combined. Since then we have had several failures all with the common theme of Pred. It is also interesting to note that you continued with triptans whilst on the shrooms. Something we have always cautioned against, as they definately interfere. So all I'm asking is that when you chalk yourself up as a failure, please qualify that with... "but I also failed to follow the dosing guidlines and was using both pred and triptans during the same period". While I was unearthing these I also uncovered from roughly the same period, the following post from Pinkfloyd: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/109290.html That's one for the scrapbook. I have a sneaking suspicion that he also posted some stuff just prior to this under a pseudonym. Flash |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Bob P on Mar 24th, 2004, 10:32am Flash, Hi dude. Hope things are well over there. My last cluster was September 2001. Started while moving my daughters to San Diego. Felt what was like a sinus headache. A couple ibuprophen and I was good. Kept getting the sinus headaches the next few days before I finally admitted it was the start of a cycle. 1 week into the cycle, no meds taken, I dosed with 2+ grams of dried B+ that I had cultivated. Very well stoned for 5-6 hours. The next 24 hours had a couple more of the sinus type attacks and then they went full blown 10's. Too early to dose again. Had some triptan samples and some Medrol dosepacks (prednisone). Started a dosepack. Stopped the attacks immediately (pred works really well for me). The pack is 6 tabs first day, 5 the second, etc. By day 4 the attacks were back in full force. I continued to dose with the fungi every weekend for the next 3 weeks (4 doses total). The last 3 doses were like daver, I just chewed them up and swallowed. My cycle wasn't lamer than ordinary but it was longer than ordinary. It was the longest ever, 15 weeks. I don't blame this on the shrooms though. At the time I had 2 years worth of knowledge gained from this site and I was ready to do battle with my doctors and insurance company. I think that the frustration of knocking heads with them coupled with trying to lead OUCH at that time produced much more stress than was wise. Once I finally gave up on the verp (which has never worked for me) the topomax (which didn't work), and the triptans (which work but weren't worth hasseling the insurance over, and settled into a routine of cafergot and O2, the cycle became much more regular and manageable. Did I give the shrooms a decent trial? I don't know. I do know that the first dose was a big one and didn't stop the attacks and I wasn't about to go through attacks with no medication, so I turned to other means. Did this affect ensuing doses? I don't know. Imitrex has a hal life of 3 hours so it's pretty well gone from your system in 12 hours. Could an imitrex dose at 8PM affect a shroom dose at noon the following day? I doubt it. So, after the first 5-6 weeks of fighting doctors, insurance, taking shrooms, topomax, verap, pred, triptans, I went back to a regular routine and dealt a whole lot better. I don't doubt for one minute that shrooms have an effect of 5HT receptor sites and consequently clusters. I also don't yet buy into the 'some drugs blocking the shroom effects', especially when the half life of the drug says it should be out of your system. I also don't buy into the 'shut the door' philosphy yet. Hopefully the official trials will materialize and more concrete information will come from them. I don't intend to take a preventative dose for a few reasons. As I've gotten older, my remissions have gotten longer. Last one was 2 yr. 7 mo. long. This one should be 2 yr. 9 mo. long. That means I should get hit in Sept/Oct of this year. I always hope that each cluster will be the last and I will outgrow these things. I prefer to wait and see if that happens. If I take a dose and the cluster doesn't materialize, was it the dose or age that prevented it? I want to know. I do intend to dose at the first signs of the cluster and see what happens. If I dose at the first sign and then every couple of days after that, I should be able to get 2-4 doses in before the attacks go to full blown 10's or the shrooms work. We'll see what happens. Added: LOL. As I came back to look at my post I see your post above. Must have been composing my post at the same time your were posting yours. I think my post says all the things you felt it should say. It also asks a few questions that haven't really been answered. I think this is what bugs me the most about the shroom treatment. There is so much of the, you can't take this before treatment, this intereferes with the shrooms, shrooms shut the door, yada yada. Seems like there is always some assumed reason for the failure or some rule to dosing that isn't really explained, at least not to my satisfaction, yet it is professed as if it were scientifically proven fact. You're saying the pred interefered with subsequent doses. Why does it interfere with the doses when it has worn off to the point that the attacks have already returned? If the attacks have returned then the pred must not be effecting the 5HT sites or whatever it was effecting to stop the attacks for the first 3-4 days and if it's not effecting those sites, why does it effect the shrooms? |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flash on Mar 24th, 2004, 12:33pm Bob, Thanks for the reply - we do need this detail of data, to hazard our guess until such time as someone properly qualified undertakes to run a scientific study. We now think we know a lot more than we did 3 years ago. Here is a summary based on my personal interpretation of the shroom reports that have been compiled to date: It may take up to 7 days for the full impact of a shroom dose to materialise. In other words someone may dose at the beginning of their cycle, then feel a brief period of remission (but not always) lasting a few hours (sometimes longer). In some lucky individuals the remission may actually gain a hold at that time... however for many people they then enter a period of CH activity, often more intense than usual, sometimes of the worst intensity they have ever experienced. That part sucks. Then after a few days, usually 4-7 the attacks suddenly ramp down, although if the activity has been very intense they may leave a tender face and temple behind. At this point the painful CH symptoms may terminate. Many people require more than 1 attempt. Usually in those cases the initial remission period lasts longer, around 5-7 days, then the headaches return. This cycle tends to repeat itself around a weekly shroom dose, but fortunately the person remains PF most of the time. After a period of several weeks the remission usually hold. This is often the case with chronics. Some people experience the above, but with shorter periods of remission, meaning they are in pain for up toi 5 days each week, although the attacks do tend to start small and ramp up over the course of the week. The data here is more sketchy, but we have instances where switching to an alternative hallucinogen, or strangely even an alternative species of shroom will yield a more permanent remission. Some people get remissions that last over 2 years - even some previous chronics. Some people have yet to experience another attack. Some people only get remissions that hold for 1 month. Some people find that smaller doses work better, in some cases these doses are minute, essentially a regular sip of tea, often several times each day will maintain a largely PF or greatly improved state. Other people have better results with larger doses. Doses beyond level 3 appear to have no advantage, perhaps even a disadvantage. We have established that the minimum time between doses for the hallucinogenic effects of a dose to materialise is 3 days. However the optimum frequency and magnitude of dose has not yet been determined. We are not even close on that one. We do know that maintenance dosing, works better than reactive dosing. The best way to remain PF is to dose periodically whilst in a lengthy remission. This produces a sustained remission. The best rates of success are achieved by people that have fully detoxed from all other medication, and remain that way throughout the duration of the treatment. Fully detoxed does not necessarily relate to how long something takes to metabolise through the body. Fully detoxed means clean and has been for so long that there absolutely cannot be any residual effects. Some medications must be gently tapered, despite the fact that on paper it's out of the body within x hours. This is because the medication has altered the way the body functions creating some form of dependance. Shrooms work best on a normally functioning body, even to the extent of working better when the person is in a period of remission! In other words even CH itself interferes with the treatment! I firmly believe that in addition to eating shrooms people need to sleep for 7 hours a night, and eat, piss, shit, shower at the correct intervals... in as much as is possible. Most people have observed that eating, drinking, crapping, exercising, etc are all ways of aborting an attack if undertaken early enough. The secret of the treatment is that it appears to press the reset button. This may or may not cause a reset, but the button needs to be left alone to settle down after it's been pressed... once the beast is hit on the head, walk on tiptoe and speak in whispers, eventually it will go to sleep and stay there for a while. If it starts to wake up then hit the fucker again. Triptans do appear to interact, though no necessarily directly with the shrooms, but rather with the process of the treatment. Some people have success despite continuing use of triptans. Overall triptans appear to substantially decrease the chances of lasting remission. Ceasing triptans for 1 week, and staying away from them, sorts this out. To be continued... |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flash on Mar 24th, 2004, 12:34pm ...continued Likewise pred but the results are worse. As far as I can ascertain everyone using pred has failed to achieve any form of success, even limited success. This may even extend to someone that ceased pred a few weeks back. Verapamil seems to have less effect on the treatment, but there are rumours that it may actually lengthen episodes or send people chronic in it's own right. People off verapamil tend to terminate their cycles with less doses. It is dangerous to use methysergide in conjunction with this treatment. Ergotamine should not be taken in conjunction with the treatment, but can be used between doses. People that do so appear to substantially decrease their chances of success. Ceasing ergotamine for 1 week, and staying away from it, sorts this out. People that respond well to ergotamine, methysergide, or triptans appear to have a better chance of success. Chronics are harder to treat than episodics, but those that attain a lasting remission appear to become episodic, although it's hard to tell since most continue to perform maintenance doses. Common themes in failed attempts in no particular order are: 1) No effect from the mushrooms, may not be the correct shrooms. 2) Giving up after a single dose. 3) Running out of shrooms. 4) Ceasing treatment due to anxiety. 5) Resorting to other medications before things have had 7 days to settle. 6) Failure to properly detox. Where the treatment has genuinely failed, those that have then tried a different species of shroom, or LSD / LSA as an alternative have usually succeeded very quickly. In addition some people have experienced difficulty due to as yet not understood dosing issues. These people achieve promising results, often better than conventional treatments but fail to achieve a lasting remission. These issues probably relate to frequency and magnitude of dose. Another interesting point is that more desperate people resort to this treatment, so as a cross section of CH sufferers the shroomers are not properly representative. We have a higher incidence of bad cases. This sums up my thoughts on the treatment. One last point I like to stress is this... there are no other treatments that taken in such small quantities, so infrequently, achieve any form of remission or reduction in pain lasting longer than a few hours. Shrooms regularily ahcieve remissions or significiant reductions in pain lasting in excess of 24 hours in even the worst cases. There do appear to be a few isolated cases of total failure in fully detoxed individuals using the correct shrooms, and making sufficient attempts with reasonable doses, at a reasonable frequency, but those are very much in the minority. I am only aware on 1. The flipside is that the majority of reports, far in excess of 50% show spectacular success even in less than ideal conditions with < 4 doses. Flash |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Bob P on Mar 24th, 2004, 1:43pm Quote:
I'll trade somebody some B+ for some liberty's! Not really. The stuff I have turned purple immediately when I picked it. Should be ok. We'll give it a good shot if the cycle ever appears (till then I'll just keep pushing Floyd's buttons). PS - I don't do ties. Don't think I've worn one since my wedding, 28 years ago. I do get a lot of gag underwear for Xmas though! |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Mark C on Mar 26th, 2004, 4:27am |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by toader on Mar 30th, 2004, 10:46pm Problem is .. how do you get there from here? I don't see how one can detox off current prescription dope from current episode without falling into a pieces??? |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flash on Mar 31st, 2004, 4:01am Some people experience less headaches when they detox... |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by fubar on Mar 31st, 2004, 12:00pm on 03/30/04 at 22:46:29, toader wrote:
That's hard. I fudged a bit the first time I dosed. I was still using Imitrex to abort the really bad ones. I thought I was doing well, riding out far more of the headaches than I would normally, but I did use the Imitrex when it was too much to handle. It may explain why I got no relief from the first dose. Determined to give it a real try, I rode out 5 days of no-meds at ll. While it seemed more painful at first, it's amazing how you adjust. I can't say I was any more (or less) miserable than when I was taking all the Lithium, verapamil, Imitrex, O2, etc... When I finally dosed, I had only a couple more headaches and then it was as if I woke up from a coma. I can't explain it any other way. Bob, I too wish there was more standardized dosing and availability, but this is all we have to go on until science gives us the answers we need. It looks like science will eventually be allowed to test these theories, but I'm not willing to wait in suffering. Yeah, there's a lot of 'it might...', 'some people...', 'we think...' and other uncertainties, but I can't argue with the very real fact that it struck down the beast in my case. -Fu |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by vig on Mar 31st, 2004, 7:27pm on 03/30/04 at 22:46:29, toader wrote:
just do it! |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Roxy on Apr 1st, 2004, 12:00am on 03/30/04 at 22:46:29, toader wrote:
I'm chronic, with anywhere from 5-10 ch's a day.....depending on what kind of day it is..... ;). I've been med free for almost two months now. If I can do it.....anyone can. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Flounder on Apr 1st, 2004, 12:00am Oxygen, Oxygen, Oxygen, Shrooms! |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Roxy on Apr 1st, 2004, 12:09am on 04/01/04 at 00:00:24, Flounder wrote:
OK...I lied. Not totally med free... ;;D. Just triptans and preventative free. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by toader on Apr 1st, 2004, 4:40am this is my first cluster, now pushing into into 5 months doc says "first one is always the worst" but is concerned that my pain level is not subsiding and I may become chronic. She wants me to do trex daily, if necessary, to control the pain, but I grow weary of it all. i like the big stick idea better .... so I guess some research is in order ... thanks for your help |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by toader on Apr 1st, 2004, 5:00am so now I have a new hydroponics project. . . any preferred variety (aka bluemeanie, amazon, etc?) |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by notseinfeld on Apr 1st, 2004, 9:33am Chronic here as well and the best gift I've ever received I gave to myself: NO more meds. The prospect was somewhat harrowing I admit but after dropping the verap and triptans I had a major reduction (7 weeks and running now) and never get higher than a Kip4. Of late I've had a great reduction in frequency and with the 02 not suffering more than 5 minutes at a clip. I feel somewhat hesitant to post these results as I would hate to have contributory negligence for someone who this may not work for. I still fully intend to do the shrooms and just consider this a looooong detoxing period. Anyone ever seen the acronym BOL? Best of luck? If not, this is how schtuff is invented. So.... BOL to all you brave shroomers! |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by pinksharkmark on Apr 1st, 2004, 1:56pm on 04/01/04 at 05:00:23, toader wrote:
Make sure you are working with a strain of Psilocybe cubensis and not one of the other species. Most spore suppliers concentrate on P. cubensis, but some also offer more exotic species such as Psilocybe mexicana or Psilocybe tampanensis or Panaeolus tropicalis. These species are most definitely not for the first time grower. While all strains (varieties) of P. cubensis are suitable for the first time grower, some are more forgiving than others. Most clusterhead farmers choose to go with "Ecuador" or "B+" for their first grow. My personal recommendation is the Ecuador if you choose just one strain. It's a good idea to get two or even three different strains and grow all of them simultaneously -- avoiding the "all the eggs in one basket" approach. Most spore suppliers offer a discounted package deal if you buy more than one syringe. If you choose to go this route, I would recommend "Ecuador", "B+" and the "PF" strain, which is also called "Matias Romero" by some suppliers. The "PF" strain can sometimes be hard to find, though, so as an alternative I would suggest "Amazonian". Ecuador, B+ and PF have the advantage of being the strains that are the most "domesticated" -- that is to say they have been cultivated indoors for hundreds of generations and have adapted well to the enivronment you will be providing them. This means they are generally more resistant to contamination and will germinate quickly, colonize quickly, and fruit quickly. It is not unheard of with these strains to harvest your first flush (crop) a month after you begin the project, although six weeks is a more realistic estimate. Some of the newer strains (i.e. Malabar or Puerto Rican) are still not that far from the "wild" state and can tend to "stall" at various points in the cultivation process, leaving a first time grower uncertain whether he/she is doing something wrong. pinky |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Margi on Apr 1st, 2004, 2:06pm on 04/01/04 at 04:40:35, toader wrote:
If your doc thinks you're going chronic after only five months, she needs to educate herself more about clusters. You're not officially chronic until you've gone 12 months with no more than 2 weeks of unmedicated pain freedom. Also, if she hasn't already prescribed you oxygen, then you REALLY need to do some doctor shopping. Oxygen really is a great abortive and if you're planning to detox, it will help you keep your sanity. VERY interesting trend here, though....note the number of times it's been mentioned that there are less attacks when med free.....hmmmm......I sure can't help but think meds prolong things. My husband's cycles never used to last longer than two months and he was unmedicated for the first 14 years we were together. Last two cycles, he's gone the preventative med route (verapamil alone this time and combined with lithium last time) and first cycle was 6 months, this last one, 5.5 months. I know overuse of Imitrex can cause rebounds, but I wonder if it prolongs the cycle as well. I hate clusters. :( |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by Roxy on Apr 1st, 2004, 5:43pm on 04/01/04 at 14:06:52, Margi wrote:
I agree with all of this Margi. Since I've gone med free, my head has definately settled down. Since I'm chronic, I know my cycle isn't going to be shorter..... ;;D, but the number and intensity of the ch's has changed for the better. I just don't know whether to contribute this phenomenon to the med free state, or the shrooms. One thing I do know, is that before shrooms, 02 did not work for me. Since I've been dosing, it works like a charm. I know that the shrooms have taken many people PF, I just don't think I'm going to be one of those lucky ones. But, and this is a big but (no pun intended)....I do know that the shrooms keep me in a low cycle, and it makes the 02 work. That is more than any med has ever done for me. Maybe I'll be lucky, and they will take me PF one day...I can always hope. But until then, I'll keep dosing every few weeks to try and stay in the low cycle. |
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Title: Re: A thought about shrooms... Post by miapet on Apr 4th, 2004, 12:32pm oxygen oxygen oxygen as for cafergot/ergot/all that family . . .. even if you are checking your 'digits' . . .you also need to monitor your entire vascular system . . .and keep up with your b/p . . . add on: why is it, that nearly every post that is shroom specific has to turn into a debate/arguement/button-pushing kind of thing?? isn't this site supposed to let people be made aware of ALL CHOICES/POSSIBILITIES, and then LET THEM make their own decisions??? EVERYONE should already know that not everything works for everyone . .if it did, y'all would ALL be pain free and on the same treatement. AND . .I don't think the shroom questions should have to be pm . .. because the question is probably one that more than one person has an interest in the answer. |
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