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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2004 >> accupuncture
        
(Message started by: bamjd on Jan 7^th, 2004, 5:35pm)

Title: accupuncture
Post by bamjd on Jan 7^th, 2004, 5:35pm

:-[Has anyone had any luck with accupuncture?

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by Mark C on Jan 7^th, 2004, 6:03pm

Not really.

Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine" (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html)

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by 9erfan on Jan 7^th, 2004, 7:21pm

NOPE.

And I've tried it several times, and once for 18 weeks consistently. Did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for my head. I can't remember reading a post from anybody here that has gotten relief from it.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by HannahFroukje on Jan 7^th, 2004, 9:52pm

We tried it, but although Jos felt good with the treatment his cycle still came back. He tried it during cycle but that didn't seem like a good idea at all.

Another thing that's related to acupuncture and perhaps more effective is doing Qi Kong or Tai Chi exercises. We just met someone who does that for clusterheadache, and he has noticed a very good effect. Ofcourse you would still have to learn the exercises first for the effect to come out, and one person is no "proof" but if it interests you perhaps it's an idea.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by bamjd on Jan 8^th, 2004, 5:03pm

tanks everyone for the help, it sounds kind of iffy though.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 9^th, 2004, 12:42am

I did acupuncture 4 times before my most recent hospital stay. It didn't effect my clusters at all. It would bring my new daily persistent headache down like 4 numbers on the pain scale during treatment, but then about 2 hours later, it would shoot back up. According to the guy I go to, this is a good sign that something is happening and it will just take a lot longer. I don't know how I really feel about it. I may try it for a bit longer, but I don't know.

My neuro said that it doesn't seem like there has been any conclusive evidence that acupuncture has really been helpful for headaches, but they don't discourage it. If you tried it and found it worked...then woohoo! It just doesn't seem to work for most people. I'm not giving up on it totally yet, but so far I'm just not sure how I feel about it. Hope this helps!

~Lizzie :)

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 9^th, 2004, 6:09am

on 01/09/04 at 00:42:14, chronic_chic wrote:

According to the guy I go to, this is a good sign that something is happening and it will just take a lot longer.

My neuro said that it doesn't seem like there has been any conclusive evidence that acupuncture has really been helpful for headaches, but they don't discourage it.
~Lizzie :)

The first sentence translates to "The longer it takes the more money she'll spend on this useless procedure".

The second sentence translates to "I know it's a useless procedure but I won't discourage it because I'd get my ass sued off"

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 9^th, 2004, 8:00am

LOL Bob ;;D

To each his own...really.... :)

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by HannahFroukje on Jan 9^th, 2004, 4:57pm

on 01/09/04 at 06:09:22, BobG wrote:

The first sentence translates to "The longer it takes the more money she'll spend on this useless procedure".

This sounds a lot like you feel like all people practising something which is not-regular medicine are money hunters not interested in helping people at ALL .....

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 9^th, 2004, 5:03pm

Hannah,

I thought about that very same thing when I talked about it with my grandparents the other day. I have spent probably hundreds of thousands of dollars on neurologists now. Yea, it's come from my insurance company. But who's paying the insurance company? My family. I don't give up on my neuro even though it has been over 3 years of no relief of pain.
The acupuncturist said it may take a year. Well....if my neuro told me it may take a year, I would just say ok let's get to it. When someone from another non-western field of medicine says it may take a year we look at them like, "What are you, nuts?" It all seems funny to me how viewpoints change depending on what it is about.

~Lizz

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by Prense on Jan 9^th, 2004, 5:21pm

I don't recall seeing any type of study with accupuncture and CH. Additionally, I have seen numerous folks here post negatively (from experience) about it working on their CH...

I'll keep my money for now.

Chris

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by Prense on Jan 9^th, 2004, 5:23pm

on 01/09/04 at 17:03:55, chronic_chic wrote:

Well....if my neuro told me it may take a year, I would just say ok let's get to it.

I'd say "piss off" and move to another neuro...

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by edel on Jan 9^th, 2004, 7:54pm

My experience with acupuncture is good and bad. This week after about 3 sessions, the cluster headache turned less and after the eight session I was back to 95 percent normal. It depends on who the doctor is. :D

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by ronnieK on Jan 10^th, 2004, 11:55am

Accupuncture-- did not work for me at all.

Besides the CH pain, I also had the needle pain on my head and toe
I believe a lot of asian would choose this method, but I think accupuncture helps dealing with nerve problems, indigesting (a must!), paralized from one side of the body--i forget what this is called( must be the ancient method of accupuncture). But not clustered headaches---my opinion.

RonnieK

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by Jayne on Jan 10^th, 2004, 2:28pm

I agree with Prense
I would find a new Nuero

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 10^th, 2004, 6:49pm

all i will say in reference to finding a new neuro is that i don't just have ch. i have ch and another headache condition. it can't just be solved in one visit, and sometimes it honestly does take years to find the right combination to help it. have recently met someone at a different headache clinic who has similar headache condition who first got relief after 8 years. for this particular headache condition, sometimes sticking it out for the long haul with a neuro who really knows your condition well and can treat all the ups and downs can be a huge benefit. i was with the same one for 2 years till he moved and it has been difficult switching to a new one, but now i'm starting to get comfortable with the new one i'm seeing. that's why i say ok to a neuro who will tell me it may take a year. it's better than never which is what it may be with NDPH. but since this isn't about ch...i won't comment anymore. :)

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by Opus on Jan 10^th, 2004, 7:59pm

With acupuncture and even medications you need to believe it will work for it to work well. People living in countries where it is the norm will have better success than where it is considered experimental. Believing something will work doesn't guarantee success but it does help.

Just my 1/4 cents.

Opus/Paul

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by HannahFroukje on Jan 11^th, 2004, 3:44am

on 01/09/04 at 17:03:55, chronic_chic wrote:

Yes well, that's why I bring it up sometimes here and there. It's the same with homeopathy sometimes, you will probably remember what I wrote about that.

The funny thing is, when I give Jos (whose attacks are right on schedual and never failing him) something homeopathic and they STOP, people will say "oh, well, that's just coincidence". But when I stick a shot of imitrex in his leg, or give him a TABLET with regular medicine, and the attacks STOP, everyone will go like "jeezzzz, that's good stuff, where can I buy it".

And you know what??? The more I look into it, because of the psilocin search and all that, the more I come to the conclusion that it's very odd that pharmaceutical companies don't look into the use of LSD and related stuff any further, and spend so much time developing medicines you have to use again and again and again, like imitrex, methysergide, ergotamine. Why??? I guess it's just not just about the "unwanted hallucinating effects of LSD" but more about the money!

Does anyone wanna guess how much money they make on imitrex? And how much money they would LOOSE if more people would be treated with LSD under controlled circumstances.

Jos and I went to see an acupuncturist who wanted to help him badly (it's not hard to see when people really really want to help you). To her it was NOT about the money at all, she was kinda "hurting" for him that she couldn't do anymore for him, but they had to stop the treatment because it was just stirring it up (didn't help). But she WANTED to help. I think there's more thought about money in the regular cirquit then in the alternative cirquit! And much more earnings going around there too. Sometimes I get the idea it's not about helping people at ALL in the pharmaceutical industry.

Think about it.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 11^th, 2004, 9:25am

Hannah,

I'd have to agree once again. Although my experience with alternatives right now is limited, my acupuncturist is one who TRULY wants to help. And you are right...you can see this in a person who will spend the time with you and is very concerned. You can see it...it's not something you can pretend or make up. My dad first said of course he wants you to keep going back...more money! But then my dad talked to him on the phone,, and after that he was all about me continuing the treatments.

For me, at first with clusters they just came earlier in the day, but I was able to sleep through the night with less hits. Is that an improvement? I don't know, but it was a change.

With the NDPH...some days I would go in with a 9 headache and walk out with a 5, but then 2 hours later it would be back up to a 9. So that's why he said it would just take some time. There were changes going on, but it's a slow process.

I don't think I am able to go right now because I am on coumadin, and sometimes the needles can make you bleed. I have to stay on the coumadin until April because I got a blood clot while in the hosp.

But I like what you said about knowing when someone really cares. You really can tell and it makes a big difference... Alt therapy isn't all about the money...people assume it is just because it doesn't work for everyone and there are ambulance chasers out there just like there are lawyers. I guess it's hard to see thru the smoke.

~Lizzie :)

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by t_h_b on Jan 11^th, 2004, 9:52am

Quote:

Sometimes I get the idea it's not about helping people at ALL in the pharmaceutical industry.

I get that idea all of the time!

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by t_h_b on Jan 11^th, 2004, 10:02am

Chronic_chic, 3 years IS a long time with no pain relief. Either you have a good neurologist and your condition is extremely resistant to treatment or you need a new neurologist like the others said. Sounds like you've already decided you have a good neuro.

What new treatment did that other person's neurologist try after eight years that finally helped? Maybe the problem just went away on its on?

Lots of times when a patient has two illness and the treatment for one exacerbates the other and vice versa the doctor has a hard time balancing it out just to keep the person alive. Usually neither condition is well-treated.

I hope that you can find some combination of things that will help you with your headaches.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 12^th, 2004, 2:07pm

on 01/11/04 at 03:44:03, HannahFroukje wrote:

Sometimes I get the idea it's not about helping people at ALL in the pharmaceutical industry.
.

BINGO!

Quote:

To her it was NOT about the money at all, she was kinda "hurting" for him that she couldn't do anymore for him, but they had to stop the treatment because it was just stirring it up (didn't help). But she WANTED to help.

Yeah, right. And she gave you all your money back. Right?

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by HannahFroukje on Jan 12^th, 2004, 5:04pm

on 01/12/04 at 14:07:58, BobG wrote:

BINGO!

Yeah, right. And she gave you all your money back. Right?

Yeah, and you got your money back from every neuro in town that couldn't stop your attacks.

RIGHT?

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 12^th, 2004, 5:42pm

on 01/12/04 at 17:04:07, HannahFroukje wrote:

Yeah, and you got your money back from every neuro in town that couldn't stop your attacks.

RIGHT?

No, but I didn't go to every neuro in town. I only went to one and he did help me. There was no reason for a refund.

But, if I had no money or insurance he would not have seen me.

And he was not "hurting" for me and "wanting" to help.
What he wanted was for the bill to be paid.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 12^th, 2004, 6:11pm

I'm confused by your post Bob....

I went to one neuro...he cared a lot. I'm sure he wanted the bills paid too though! I guess the biggest difference is that my insurance paid the neuro and my pocket paid the acupuncturist. They both cared a lot, however. I won't go to a doc who seems like they don't care. I've been there and I don't feel that effective treatment is gained by seeing a professional who doesn't give a damn about their patients!

So yeah...I paid a $15 copay to my neuro and $100 to the acupuncturist...I can't go to acupuncture anymore because we can't afford it. It's too bad because I would have at least liked to follow it for a little while! Insurance seems to have the same views as most people in the US though...non-western medicine is not yet accepted as something worth paying for!

But they still both cared...

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 12^th, 2004, 6:46pm

Hannah wants to believe when the acupuncturist says she "wants" to help and was "hurting" because she couldn't help. I say it's all bullshit and theatrics and should be left on the Hollywood B-movies. Show me some solid scientific proof that acupuncture works and I will change my mind.

Hannah…are you the one that asked for a list of what worked, for at least one person, to ease the CH pain? If you are I have a list I’ll post here. They are all from this site and were copy/pasted to the list.

Please click the list below for acupuncture info

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
Ueli’s post 4-30-01 on Acupuncture from QuackWatch

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 12^th, 2004, 6:57pm

I will say this...

I spoke with my new neurologist this past hospital stay about the acupuncture. He said he doesn't discourage it, however it hasn't been shown to do much for headaches. On another headache website, some people have really posted positively about their experiences about acupuncture...but also many have said it does not work for them.

I think there are important things to look out for here...like with many things...almost anyone can get certified and trained in acupuncture. Check the background of the person. It really is a form of medicine that goes back hundreds of years, and there is a proper way to do it...the first acupuncturist I went to was one of those definate quacks you speak of. I went to her twice before I realized she was a total airhead and full of $hit. She'd be like..umm...le'ts stick 6 needles uhhhh here!

But the MD acupuncturist I went to outside of Philadelphia who was trained in China was excellent. I did notice some changes, though I didn't get relief of headaches. I only went 4 times before my hospital stay and now I have to stop due to financial issues.

I think one should watch out for any practitioner who says they can "cure headaches." There is no cure as of yet for this neurological condition. Only management.

But mainly...if someone wants to try acupuncture, I think we should allow them to do it and hope that they gain some relief from it There have been the few who have! Thinking positively never hurts like Paul posted earlier here. You just never know... I don't think I would completely blow it off, but I would just be cautious and informed.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by toader on Jan 13^th, 2004, 10:06pm

As with anything in life, deciding to see an acupuncturist all depends upon your point of view and, of course, your insurance.

I go to acupuncture treatment to help me relax and make me better able to cope with the pain. We have pretty good insurance so only I pay $15 copay per visit.
I'm also fortunate enough to be able to be treated by a family friend which really helps with the emotional healing as well.

There are more "aggressive" acupuncture techniques and locations for interrupting an active CH attack which I have tried with mixed success. This is only my first time with CH so my pool of experience is very limited.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by HannahFroukje on Jan 14^th, 2004, 6:57am

on 01/12/04 at 18:46:51, BobG wrote:

Hannah…are you the one that asked for a list of what worked, for at least one person, to ease the CH pain? If you are I have a list I’ll post here. They are all from this site and were copy/pasted to the list.

Please click the list below for acupuncture info

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
Ueli’s post 4-30-01 on Acupuncture from QuackWatch

Yes, I am. But I´m not looking for a list of "quacks" if that´s what you mean.

I am not looking for "wanting to believe" either. If something works it works, if it doesn´t work it doesn´t work, it´s that simple.

But frankly if something works for just a single person, although this same treatment might not work for others, that doesn´t make it impossible that it DID work for somebody else. This could be the case with acupuncture or with a million other things. It doesn´t always HAVE to be black or white.

If I had cluster, acupuncture wouldn´t be the first one I tried. If I would be in cycle, I would even stay far away from it, from what I´ve seen now. But I don´t think that makes acupuncture a "quack". If you do feel like that, that´s your opinion.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by floridian on Jan 14^th, 2004, 9:40am

Quote:

Show me some solid scientific proof that acupuncture works and I will change my mind.

No good evidence that acupuncture helps with clusters, but plenty of science to show that it might.

Here is a sampling of articles to show that acupuncture can increase or decrease the production of nitric oxide, depending on the needle points chosen. Nitric oxide is overproduced in clusters, and it causes blood vessels to expand and pinch nerves.

J Tradit Chin Med. 2003 Jun;23(2):127-8. Effects of warm needling at zusanli (ST 36) on NO and IL-2 levels in the middle-aged and old people.

J Neurophysiol. 2003 Aug;90(2):780-5. Epub 2003 Apr 02. Nitric oxide in the gracile nucleus mediates depressor response to acupuncture (ST36).

Am J Chin Med. 2003;31(4):581-90. Acupuncture modulates expressions of nitric oxide synthase and c-Fos in hippocampus after transient global ischemia in gerbils.

Neurosci Lett. 2003 Aug 14;347(1):5-8. Acupuncture suppresses ischemia-induced increase in c-Fos expression and apoptosis in the hippocampal CA1 region in gerbils.

Acupunct Electrother Res. 2003;28(1-2):1-10. Effect of acupuncture on nitric oxide synthase expression in cerebral cortex of streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats.

Sheng Li Xue Bao. 1999 Oct;51(5):508-14. [Effect of electroacupuncture and 7-NI on penicillin-induced epilepsy and their relation with intrahippocampal NO changes]

Acupunct Electrother Res. 2000;25(3-4):137-43. Anticonvulsion effect of acupuncture might be related to the decrease of neuronal and inducible nitric oxide synthases.

Quackwatch not withstanding, there is ample proof that acupuncture can be used effectively for many conditions. Pubmed lists 8848 articles that deal with the topic of acupuncture, including many well designed and controlled experiments. The non-specific effects of acupuncture involve analgesia and pain relief via the release of endorphins. For this, the choice of points is not that critical. Acupuncture has also been shown to affect particular organs and tissues, although this requires more skill in choosing and stimulating the points.

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 14^th, 2004, 2:54pm

Here you go Hannah. The list is to long for one message so look for more under this.

The following is NOT to be taken seriously.......
A quick search, copy and paste and we have a list of fixes for clusters.
They were all posted at this site, some more than once.
Some are serious and some are….well…you decide.
I do not endorse nor dis-dorse any of them.

a non-invasive killing of the nerves surgery
BC-Pain Relief powder
sneezes 6 times cycle will start, 6 more and it stops
try a hypnotherapist
snorts cayenne pepper
iv injections of hydrogen peroxide and mangenese
Go braless
spearmint tea
a fat peperoncini pepper seeds and all
being pregnant stops her ch
a medical student with a cure but won’t share it
Norgesic Forte
gives herself DHE shots
Feverfew
non-prescrip anti-histamine tablets stopped ch
Pot helps a lot
emu oil
Radio Frequency Lesion
RFG (Radio Frequency Generator)
Magnesium
LSA & LSD
aspirin & ibuprofen
ear plugs stop ch
go on a diet to stop ch
Drez Procedure
Tylenol and Xanax
Charge Plus 2
hypnosis and a nice bath

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 14^th, 2004, 2:55pm

More for Hannah

enzyme called Tryosinase
Duragesic Patch
histamine phosphate by IV stops clusters
Vioxx
Stereotactic Radio Frequency Rhizotomy
takes other people's percocet
gamma knife
try a colonic
High Colonic using vinegar
snort apple cider vinegar
craniofacial manipulation
take Fioricette and lay down
alcohol drink "brain wrench" stops ch
try peppermint oil on the lump on your neck
The Remyelinization Process
a "spiritual cleansing"
aspirin
narcotics
hyperventilation will cure clusters
clip corrugator muscles
accupuncture
lowering cholestrol will reduce ch
a chiropodist fixed his pelvis & cured ch
O2Zone
wears a device in his mouth to stop ch
Percodan
Oxicontin tablets
Asprin with codine
take a panadol and then fully focus on something
Elimination diet
capsaicin cream
GABA
saline injections in your fat
jacking off
2 benedryl, 2 aspirin, & coffee cures ch
morphine shots
'tissue salts'
anti-biotic shot
Stadol & other opiates
a very tight hat band
Hangovers work for me
try pouring hot water down your nostril
food additives need to be flushed out
cluster cure is mind over matter
ch is caused by depression and cured with caffine
quit consuming caffine

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 14^th, 2004, 2:56pm

Even more for Hannah

detox tea
post-heart attack meds
Atlas Ortogonist Treatment
Migranal
butorphanol spray
Advil and chiropractors
Ambrotose
wants a bone in his neck shaved
his church prayed for him and he was cured
the schroom treatment
Oragel
Atlas Orthogonal
chelation therapy
ride a bike real fast
valerian root
Blue Green Algae
magnezium
B6
pot
hycodan
pray to Jesus and quit smoking cures ch
Omega-3 in fish oil
cuts off blood to head ‘til he passes out
sphenopalatine ganglion block
Alegra
Relaxatia
sniff amonia
tilting his head back will stop ch
Sharper Image Quadra Ionic Breeze ionizer
shots of cortizone in the back
sniff Camomile
dental bite reshaping stops ch
crush and snort imitrex pills
Midol
orgasms will stop her headaches
Prozac
excersize
squirt Xylocaine up your nose
DEEP neck massage
Migra-lieve
effedrine HCL
bleu cheese under her tongue
diflucan
Nasal Irrigation
take Diazepam with a beer or 2 or 3
acupunturist taped magnets and birdseed to his ears
oxycontin & percocet
ectasy
a hard-on will keep blood from head and stop ch
ibuprofen and Red Bull
NAET(nambudripad allergy elimaination technique)
Inderal and Peritrate
her Harley's vibration stops ch
Passion Fruit
a vinagar bath
fruit juice stops ch in people with Hypoglocemia
Valium
ULTRAM 50 mg tablet mcn
takes narcotics as prevenative but is not in cycle for 3 years
Tahitian Noni Juice
Says ch is cured by Deliverance or exorcism to cast out devils
Ace Inhibitors
Phalenz
DRUGS, DRUGS!
Phallenx
Actiq lollipop
seconals
do excerises
Testosterone treatment
ginger powder
Salvia Divinorum
magnetic pillow
grape juice and gingerale
had trigeminal nerve removed
eye drops and sleeping pills
blowing a hair dryer in my ear
drink 64 oz of water a day
lidocaine shots around the eye
Boji stones
Deseril twice a day
Bath in Lavender oil
two Tylex every four hours
bag of peas
cortgard
some sort of Beta blocker
Chinese Tiao He Cleanse
`Boldo`
liquid oxygen
BE PURE from Africa
sex can provide relief, my wife thinks I'm full of crap
shake off with some OTC meds

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 14^th, 2004, 2:58pm

Hannah, want some more cures?

vibrating glasses
chew on ice
Wellbutrin
see a medicine man from some tribe
try holotropic breathwork
give access to the cosmic unconscious
LASIK
Acular eye drop steroid
Peppermint oil on your temple
cyproheptadine
Breast Reduction
hylands migraine “and boy it works good”
Oil of Evening Primrose
desoxyn
Nexium
infusion therapy
The Big “O”
my husband bought me a vibrator.
clstr-caps
migr-ease
steam still works!!
over-the-counter Italian pills Aulin
Goodys PM
Solaray-Mega B-Stress timed release supplements
room IONIZERS
tiny electrode under scalp zaps crippling headache
OPC3
subluxation
morphine pills
jaw disc surgery
injection of novicaine/cortizone in the base of my skull.
hops
Mygrex
oxygen pills
fill one of my inhalers with liquor, then snort it.
I strangle myself
12-hour Sudafed
Albuteral inhaler
Myofascial Release
A baseball cap, loaded with 3 cheapie ice lollies
Doxipin
IMHO, the winners are!
novacaine shots in the back of the head
uses a pad sander to message his head
taking a shit relieves a ch

Bet you're sorry you asked, huh?

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by chronic_chic on Jan 14^th, 2004, 3:03pm

wow bob...that's what people claimed worked? some of those made me laugh so hard i snarfed my juice. but a couple of them actually are used in treatment of ch by neuros and have been shown to be effective for some people. migranal (despite it's migraine name) is DHE in nasal spray form....can abort for some who are freakish about shots...that's why they developed it. there's a few others that have worked for some people...but a lot on your list...funny!

~lizzie

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by CJohnson on Jan 14^th, 2004, 3:27pm

Ha Ha. Subluxation. Ueli spoke often of him. Ueli was my hero....

PFDANs
-Curtis

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by BobG on Jan 14^th, 2004, 4:09pm

on 01/14/04 at 15:03:49, chronic_chic wrote:

wow bob...that's what people claimed worked?
~lizzie

Yep. All of them are from this web site. Some can be taken serious and the rest.....?? They were copy/pasted from just the first 3 years of archives. Then I figured the list was long enough and I stopped collecting them.

I also have a list of triggers about the same length.

I know what you're thinking and the answere is Yes,

I have no life. :'(

Title: Re: accupuncture
Post by HannahFroukje on Jan 17^th, 2004, 12:52am

on 01/14/04 at 14:58:08, BobG wrote:

Hannah, want some more cures?

Bet you're sorry you asked, huh?

Well, I'm still looking for the real point you were trying to make. You don't need to tell me that there are a lot of things that do not help, we know you know ... it's not like Jos is taking an aspirine and whoops his whole cycle is over [smiley=huh.gif]. We've tried enough that didn't help and searched and searched. I could have condemned mushrooms as another quack too ...

Look, if you want to make me look rediculous in my effort to be able to help people better in the future, you really need a lot of text to do so. If you want to contribute to what I was asking then give me an honest list of your own and tell me what YOU tried and what helped you if only a little. That would help better. If you don't (want to) understand the question or if you don't see a point in answering the real question that I asked (because this was not it), because you believe it is no use, you don't need so much text. There is enough explanation in the thread about what the purpose is. So if you don't see the point, blanco is fine too.