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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2003 >> Acupuncture and Diets
        
(Message started by: simplevox on Nov 18^th, 2003, 6:26pm)

Title: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by simplevox on Nov 18^th, 2003, 6:26pm

Has anyone here ever tried acupuncture to stop CH? I have gone to a new wellness doc and he seems to think that acupuncture, a diet specific to my blood type, and some supplements for vessel care can cure my CH. I have only been once and have only been on the diet and supplements for 1 1/2 weeks and I am still getting hit with CH, but I go back for another acupuncture treatment on Thursday. I am starting to lose hope, but I'm wondering if anyone else has tried this... [smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by thomas on Nov 18^th, 2003, 6:32pm

Nope, not me. :)

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by Paigelle on Nov 18^th, 2003, 6:57pm

I firmly don't believe in the diet for the blood type. Blood type has nothing to do with this. As for acupuncture, it might not take them away, but it suppose to be very relaxing.

Be careful though, alot of therapists who perform acupuncture, reflexology and so forth operate on the "you have to keep coming back system." You could be taken for quite a bit of money. Make sure he has good credentials and you can even get references.

I learned all of this working for a chiropractor! [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif][smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by Prense on Nov 18^th, 2003, 7:05pm

on 11/18/03 at 18:26:45, simplevox wrote:

I have gone to a new wellness doc and he seems to think that acupuncture, a diet specific to my blood type, and some supplements for vessel care can cure my CH.

...and there's a dude named Ali that floats around these boards claiming he can cure CH, migraines and all sorts of other shit with a simple surgery and/or pressure on certain "spots" on your head. Believe what you want...there are many of us who try tons of off the wall crap to find relief, and because of the almighty dollar, there are many who claim they can "help" you. Try wearing magnets around your head... I'm sticking with the trex. ;;D

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by pubgirl on Nov 18^th, 2003, 7:19pm

Didn't someone here put blue cheese up their nose?

IMHO, probably about as much use and definitely cheaper

Wendy

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by Prense on Nov 18^th, 2003, 8:05pm

on 11/18/03 at 19:19:47, pubgirl wrote:

Didn't someone here put blue cheese up their nose?

LMAO! Among other things I am sure... ;;D

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by BobG on Nov 19^th, 2003, 12:34am

Click on the blue below

http://www.quackwatch.org/

then scroll down to the subjects you want to know about................

Only you can decide what is good for your treatment.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by sandie99 on Nov 19^th, 2003, 4:44am

Hi there simplevox! :)

I think it's good to try several things in finding a cure for ch. I've heard that acupuncture works for migraines, but haven't heard that it would cure ch.
But hey, we're all different, so different things can work! Personally, if I could cure my ch without pills, that would be wonderful! :)

Good luck to you anyway! :D

Best wishes & PFdays,
sandie99

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by floridian on Nov 19^th, 2003, 8:43am

Diet based on blood type is on par with the 1970's theory of biorhythms (based on when a person is born, unchanged for a persons entire life- sorry if no one remembers that great theory - it faded for good reason).

It is true that there are genetic factors that could affect clusters - like the HLA marker that is associated with not being able to keep magnesium in the body. There are other HLA (human lymphocyte antigen) markers that partially predict lots of diseases. But the thousands of genes that affect response to diet are not a simple function of two genes (A/B/0 and Rh+/Rh-). There might be a partial correlation between a gene and a blood type, but there is no proof that blood type is a good predictor of body type/diet. I would put the blood type diet in the same class as the old biorhythm theory - start with a scientific concept, keep it simple and take it far beyond the existing evidence, make money by selling a book.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by floridian on Nov 19^th, 2003, 9:47am

Quote:

... some supplements for vessel care ...

This might be useful, depending on which supplements. There are lots of foods and supplements that do affect the vascular system. Some might improve clusters, some might make it worse. There is no general agreement on this topic, and still lots to learn. Keep us posted with your experience.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by HannahFroukje on Nov 19^th, 2003, 12:00pm

Oh well, I might as well reply on this, even though I expect to be shot on the spot .... :-X

Yes , we tried acupuncture for Jos' clusters. We tried it as a preventative AND during this last cycle he has tried to continue it.

Preventative: nope, it did not prevent a new cluster. However, the start of this new cluster was only half in severity then the last cluster. For a few weeks he was having reasonably mild attacks. Then after these weeks he went back to his old pattern of 1 attack per 3 hours and straight 10's on the scale.

Because of that he even tried to have acupuncture to kill the attacks. The effect was that FIRST it got BAD, the first night after the treatment was a nightmare from HELL. Then it sort of relieved for a couple of days. Jos has tried it twice, but the first effect was so scary that he decided not to go on with that, and try to find another remedy.

The acupuncturist, who is a head-expert, sais there are cluster patients, who benefit from having treatments during attacks, even during the attack itsself [smiley=huh.gif] :-/ [smiley=huh.gif], Jos wouldn't even DARE having someone sticks a needle in his head when he's having a 10, if she wants to die she should try ... hee hee, not a CHANCE!

So ... it's 50/50 for us.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by Prense on Nov 19^th, 2003, 8:12pm

on 11/19/03 at 12:00:19, HannahFroukje wrote:

The acupuncturist, who is a head-expert, sais there are cluster patients, who benefit from having treatments during attacks, even during the attack itsself , Jos wouldn't even DARE having someone sticks a needle in his head when he's having a 10, if she wants to die she should try ... hee hee, not a CHANCE!

He better be damn good at hitting a moving target if he tried that on me with a 10...hell, even an 8! ;;D

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by pubgirl on Nov 19^th, 2003, 10:12pm

Hannah

I'm sorry I'm an awful cynic, but my immediate question to the acupuncurist would be:

"That IS good news, may I contact these people for a testimonial to the effectiveness of the treatment"

Bet the addresses of the people who had acupuncture during an attack are "ex-directory" as it were.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by HannahFroukje on Nov 20^th, 2003, 1:21am

Ehm ... yes ... perhaps

There was no question about it that she desperately wanted to help, and she tried and tried to make it better on him. We could always call her and get an appointment in her (very full) practise. So I feel as if we owe her a lot, EVEN if it didn't help, she tried so hard. From Jos' reaction she said we'd better stop the treatment because the body is just too reactive to stick needles in, for a while.

Jos had been wanting to go on at first because previously he had noticed that (when he was in the preventative treatment) when she stuck the needles in the right place he could feel the "pressure flowing out of his head" and that felt really good to him. By the way: jos is the "constructionworker" kind of guy , he's hardly the floaty philosophical type. So if he says he feels something, he feels something. Unfortunately didn't break of the attacks we had hoped for that :-[ :-[ :-[. When his body became to reactive, he realised it was no use to go on, and he grew afraid of the reactions so we stopped.

But when I come to think of it, I think the real problem is that people think they see cluster headache, while it's a migraine. And too, that people who have migraines say they've got clusterheadache. I never got the idea that she really knew WHAT it was. I had been thinking about asking her for contacts, I would like to contact those people.

Title: A few thoughts on Accupuncture
Post by floridian on Nov 20^th, 2003, 11:30am

A pubmed search for "accupuncture hypothalamus" returns 180 hits. Not all of these are relevant, but there are studies that show that:

1) accupuncture on specific points can activate the hypothalamus in PET and MR scans.
2) accupuncture can reduce Interleukins in the hypothalamus.
3) accupuncture can increase serotonin in the lateral hypothalamus.
4) accupuncture can improve the function of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis

I don't doubt the people that say that accupuncture did nothing for their headaches, or that it made their headaches worse. Just getting accupuncture is like just taking a medicine - if its not the right medicine, it could do nothing or make the problem worse. 90+ percent of 'regular' doctors don't know much about cluster headaches, and its not likely that the average accupuncturist would know more. But the idea that some particular type of accupuncture treatment could help is consistent with the medical research.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by HannahFroukje on Nov 20^th, 2003, 1:36pm

Yep, could not agree more. ;;D
Just pity that it didn't help for us, that's all.
He will be going back for treatment though after his cycle is over, he felt good with the treatment.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by simplevox on Nov 21^st, 2003, 10:05am

Well, I had the acupuncture treatment Thursday morning and also an abdomen massage. This doc seems to think that my lymph nodes in my abdomen aren't draining for some reason and that is the source of my cluster headaches. He said it would take several hours for the treatment to work. I had been suffering with about a level 4-5 shadow headache since 2:00 on Wednesday and abut 5:00 Thursday evening, the headache just melted away... just like the doc said it would. I had a pain free evening and night... until 6:00 this morning when I woke up with another CH. I took my Zomig and after an hour it went away. I have emailed the doc to tell him the headache came back... he is supposed to be sending me some more things to try. Maybe it was just a temporary fix... but I felt GREAT last night. The supplements I am taking (in case anyone is interested) are 5-Hydroxy L-Tryptophan, Vessel care (combination of Actifolate, B6, B12, trimethylglycine and choline) and SPA/DHA Complex (essential fatty acids from cold water fish).

I'll keep you posted as I journey on...

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by thomas on Nov 21^st, 2003, 10:15am

Glad you got some sleep ;;D

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by Paigelle on Nov 21^st, 2003, 12:59pm

Floridian, do you have any information about what food is best or worst for the vascular system? I would be very interested if you do.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by HannahFroukje on Nov 21^st, 2003, 2:42pm

If I may ask, for how long have you been taken this med's simplevox? Did you take'm before the acupuncture treatment or did he prescribe them?

Which regions in your abdomen did he massage? The lower area of the belly near the pelvic region? Just being curious from a student's point of view.

I'm glad you felt good at least for a while!!!

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by floridian on Nov 21^st, 2003, 4:41pm

Flavonoids (in tea, potatos, apples, onions, etc) are good for general strengthening of the blood vessels. Grape seed extract and hawthorne contain polimeric proanthocyanidins, which also strengthen the blood vessels, and have other effects. Hawthorn is used for strengthening the heart (as an adjunct in congestive heart failure) and lowering blood pressure. There are two classes of compounds in gingko - flavonoids and bilobalides. Citrus bioflavonoids are noted for improving the vascular tissues (although a few people report citrus as a trigger, and most of the bioflavinoids are actually in the pulp, not the fruit).

Am also working on a thread where the balance of 2 amino acids (lysine/arginine) may be important for identifying triggers. Arginine can be metabolized to increase nitric oxide, while lysine has the opposite effect. I saw one table that ranked common foods by this ratio, and on one end of the table were most of the common migraine triggers. Yeah, I know that clusters aren't migraines, but they are somewhat related. And the nitric oxide effect is real, as demonstrated by alcohol and nitroglycerin being reliable triggers, along with elevated NO being measured during CH attacks.

There are also several articles that show that clusterheads have high levels of antibodies to the epstein-bar virus, and lysine partially supresses epstein-bar and herpes type viruses, while arginine seems to encourage them. So maybe its a food->Nitric Oxide->CH mechanism, or food->virus->inflammation->CH mechanism, or both, or neither. Only time will tell.

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by HannahFroukje on Nov 22^nd, 2003, 3:32am

(please those of you who do not like homeopathy, skip this one ;;D).

I've been reading your posts with interest Floridian. I wish I had all the access to those research stuff you're coming up with, I would like to have a peek and get some background info from it for my own study. Are you peeling all this stuff from the internet? You must have quite a background in it too.

Just my two cents on theories here. I will mention names but be utterly utterly careful to use them on yourself, do NOT go into homeopathics without any knowledge of it, you could easily make things worse if you pick the wrong one, you all got sensitive bodies you know!

When I was trying to find certain remedies that would help Jos in his cycle, the BEST working remedies were all mineral remedies like ... where it didn't even matter so much which one I took. I've mentioned before that the effect was only temporary, sometimes astonishing but not always without side effects too. Like he would have no attacks, but a splitting headache instead of it. Or the attacks would stop and he would get a migraine with vomiting instead. Sometimes the attacks would just stop. This all with MINERAL remedies like I said. Second group was herbal remedies but these were also each and every time herbals that had a lot of minerals in'em. Third group was a direct shot, since there's a lot of pressure on the brain in CH, I wondered if a remedy for swellings would help and I used apis. This killed one attack (left him with a headache, but the attack melted away), but only once, I could not repeat it.

This is my riddle I have to solve, WHY do these remedies work so well, BUT so temporarily??? I have reason to believe this is the case in more CH-patients, the results on homepathy seem to be poor. I think the body is pretty much USED to a wrong mineralbalance or any other balance, and it's trying to "get back to the wrong balance" because it's used to it. So if you bring in something homeopathic, it will correct for a while, person feels okay, but the body will still think "uh oh, this is NOT good, I've got the wrong balance" and start correcting it therefore the remedy will not work again. I need to find something that will tell the body that it's not doing stuff right, I will have to look BEHIND it, but haven't found it yet. It always comes down to the hypothalamus if you ask me, there's something terribly wrong with the regulation of balances. It is so frustrating to have a few days of glorious rest and then gradually it starts again. And by now I've tried all the good ones, and am left with nothing to try anymore.

Oh, one pretty safe tip for those of you who want to try. With some people (not with Jos, but he 's a real heavy case I think) Arnica D2 helps. I think in Amerika it's called CH2 or 2CH, not sure, anyway it's a LOW potency of Arnica, any drugstore will know what you mean. Take the globules, without alcohol in 'em. Start taking it when you feel the first signs of a CH, it improves bloodflow and with some people they can kill all their attacks just by taking this simple stuff (I repeat: not with us). Be careful with trying the other stuff Apis, you could have a temporary worse case. It's cheap too.

Other remedy names are more specific, but these two work directly on either the bloodflow or the swelling of the brain. Don't take them together unless you have sorted out your own case well.

Don't shoot me if it doesn't work for you. Most will have heard of this tip before, isn't it???

Title: Re: Acupuncture and Diets
Post by BlueMeanie on Nov 23^rd, 2003, 12:58am

Never tried Acupuncture. My wife always tries to get me to go. ::)
It seams like it wouldn't work unless you knew a CH was on the way while your sitting there waiting your turn. 8)
I went to the chiropractor for 3 years. Waste of money. I tried going with & without CH. Once in awhile one would go away, probably just luck I think. :P

GOOD LUCK !

If it works (fingers crossed for you) post back.