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Title: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Oct 16th, 2003, 2:23pm Have had cluster from early childhood, and eventually accepted this as a permanent condition. Numerous drugs were experimented with, under medical supervision, in hopes of finding something that would either prevent a cluster or alleviate the pain. Nothing worked, including similar attempts during the '80's. In 2001, I visited an ENT doctor on anrelated topic, and deliberately brought up the subject, inquiring if allergies might be a cluster-trigger. His response shocked me: "Nope, but I've cured six people." He proceeded to get a vial containing what looked like rose- thorns. "These are bone spurs I've removed from people's noses. That's what causes them." He's now cured 7! Removed two spurs in July, 2001, and I've not yet had a cluster....!!!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by thomas on Oct 16th, 2003, 3:15pm Wow! How do I find out if I have one of those rose thorns stuck in my nose? x-ray? |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Oct 16th, 2003, 3:21pm on 10/16/03 at 15:15:38, thomas wrote:
Your Ear, nose and throat doctor will have access, or own, a device similar to the one my doctor used. A wand, connected to a TV and tape device was used to probe in each nostril. Since my cluster were 2 sided, he check each-- sure enough! I had a spur in each. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by floridian on Oct 16th, 2003, 3:33pm My doctor doesn't have a wand. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Ueli on Oct 16th, 2003, 5:57pm Two thoughts pop up here:
??? Ueli ??? |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Oct 17th, 2003, 10:03am on 10/16/03 at 17:57:43, Ueli wrote:
Funny you mention that; the same doctor ordered a cat-scan for the other problem, before I mentioned the clusters. When I brought it up, he re-examined the cat scan, but they didn't show up. He then probed the nostrils with the xray wand, and confirmed that the spurs were there, one in each. By the way, each cluster was one sided-- but the next could be on the other side. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Oct 17th, 2003, 11:03am on 10/16/03 at 15:15:38, thomas wrote:
Yes, they didn't show up on a cat scan; the one my doctor used actually was inserted deep into each nostril-- with anaesthetic! |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by ave on Oct 17th, 2003, 2:48pm Ueli, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the larger part of the nose made up of, NOT bone, but cartilage??? Len, any explanation why the doc could not see the spurs on a cat scan? I mean, you said he didn't but did he explain why you can see almost anything on scans, and not this? Have you ever had a remission period of this length before? How old are you now - some people get spontaneous remission when they grow mature. Erc. etc. Lots of questions, that could bear answers, I guess. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by LasVegas on Oct 17th, 2003, 5:30pm Very interesting thread. I have had reconstructive nasal surgery as a child. Went to a neuro office yesterday and was immediately reminded that my left nasal septum is deviated. Deviated septums cause congestion and other breathing (blood flow/oxygen flow) problems. Nasal congestion is my 1st warning sign of an attack. What about an MRI, will that show "bone spurs?" Gregg in Las Vegas |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by r_headache on Oct 18th, 2003, 10:39am this is a very interesting topic. I too have a deviated septum (same side as the CH). I've had x-rays, Cat scans and MRI. all they tell me is there is nothing wrong. hmmmm. I will be asking my nero about this bone spur thing next time I meet with her. If I do have one shouldn't it show up on at least one of the photos I've had done, or is it so small that it only shows up on a special x-ray shoved into my head (reminds me of total recall :).) |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Mark C on Oct 18th, 2003, 7:50pm Having just had sinus surgery last week to repair a deviated septum and scrape my sinus in MY case the two are (were) not related. Hell I woke up in recovery with a CH and had it all day and have been averaging 3 attacks a day for the last 3 weeks anyway. I have had two cats scans and numerous x-rays over the last few years which led to the decision to have the surgery in the first place....I kept a sinus infection for over a year but I have ECH for over 25 years now. I am assuming if any spurs were present the hour or so he spent in my head would have discovered them. I wish the surgery would have cured it (CH) but I had no expectation it would. I went to ENT's for 15 years, and was mis-diagnosed for 15 years too, finally one sent me to a Neuro, thank God for Imitrex! I ain't sayin what you have said does not have merit, I just offered my own recent experience. PFDAN's http://www.drfeller.com/Mark/mark.gif |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Michel_L on Oct 20th, 2003, 10:19am I found some articles on the subject. This one seems interesting http://www.vj-novak.ch/publish_2.html Migraine and Neurovascular Headaches, 1992 Pathogenesis and surgical treatment of migraine and neurovascular headaches with rhinogenic trigger Pfd's to all. Michel L Québec City |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Oct 20th, 2003, 12:34pm on 10/17/03 at 14:48:33, ave wrote:
No explanation was given, but his certainty of the cause was astounding-- as are the results! I've had remissions of as many as two years in the past, and thought I had "outgrown " the condition, only to be surprised with another cluster. I'm fairly certain this worked, and that's why I finally posted my experience here. (I'm keeping the Oxygen bottle, just in case!) PS: You're right, the nose is mostly cartilege and flesh, but it's located in front of a cavity surrounded by bone. And, I'm 61. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Oct 20th, 2003, 12:41pm on 10/18/03 at 10:39:08, r_headache wrote:
"Nothing wrong... it's all in your head" yea, I've heard that for years! I don't know if it shows up in any other method. They're not necessarily large, just enough to cause problems. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Nov 25th, 2003, 7:33pm on 10/17/03 at 14:48:33, ave wrote:
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by umali2 on Nov 25th, 2003, 10:39pm i found a link...which actually explains spurs and migraines... Quote:
http://www.smithctr.com/headaches3.htm http://www.smithctr.com/SCSC%20Newsletter.pdf (bottom of page 2) which is odd that i read about the swelling of the intranasal cavity...i'll preface you with this: i recently moved back to my home town after four years of college...i ran ouf of meds (fioricet, which took too long to kick in)...so, i cant go back to the dr. i previously went to. my cycle just started and i recently started a new job..and i dont have insurance. i decided to go to a local walk-in clinic ask for a perscription of imitrex. the doc took a look in my ears nose and mouth..and i tell him about my 10 year history of headaches...he said he was familiar with clusters and migraines...and was going to give me sinus meds..which is where i stopped him and told him i've been treated for sinus headaches before and i believe all of that treatment didnt help with my headaches. then i told him i wanted imitrex. it seemed like he was very upset that i dare defy him and his diagnosis. but, he gave me a perscription for the trex nasal spray. but he also requested that i, for lack of better description, inhale "sodium chloride irrigation" (aka salt-water) through my nose until i can taste the saltiness of the solution...then spit it out...after a confused look...he explained that my right sinus was larger than the left...(note: my CH are always right sided in a cycle, with an occasional one on the left when i'm not in a cycle) and said that enlarged sinus might be due to the weather, how i sleep, or a number of different causes. the salt water, i suppose, is intended to help make the swelling go down. He said that he is "very accurate with this kind of diagnosis of sinuses and headaches" which i thought that he might have been crazy...but, now...i'm starting to reconsider with the information on that page... and how swelling may trigger the pain in conjunction with the nasal spur. i dunno, this will definately need further investigation. and once my insurance kicks in...trips to a ENT...but, for now...i will start sucking the salthingyer solution thru my nose more regularly, as he suggested (8-10 times a day)..unlike the 4-5, i do now, which shows no sign of change. i'll come back with more info as i fill my head with this salt water solution. Jeremy (i couldnt remember my password..because i never have to enter it on my office computer so i just created this user name, incase you were wondering umali2=umali) (for those curious the salt water he perscribed was one heafty teaspoon of salt in one quart (32oz) of water..cover one nostril and suck thru the other until you taste the salt...which doesnt take much once you get the hang of slurping thru your nose...then do the other side...8-10 times a day) (sorry for such a long post) |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Nov 26th, 2003, 1:16pm Jeremy: It's the first thing I've seen in published on the topic, but absolutely rings true with what my ENT had to say on the subject, prior to removing the spurs. He left the septum in place, removed only the spurs-- and the clusters, too. I was deep into a cluster the day he did the surgery, and haven't had one since! Len Rogers |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by umali on Nov 26th, 2003, 4:41pm the only thing i'm slightly skeptical about is the "what if's"....i guess i mean...what if you are just in remission?...(knock on wood)...some people go into remission for years no signs of CH at all...then one day...they come calling. i'm not giving up on the idea of spurs...maybe its not for everyone...i dunno... i'll spend some more time over the long weekend researching what i can. jeremy |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Nov 26th, 2003, 8:14pm Jeremy: Logical-- and experienced-- question! Yes, I've had periods of remission, some as long as a year. Can I be certain that they're over? No, I guess I can't, in all honesty. On the other hand, this is the FIRST approach that wasn't "let's try this... or that" (usually) drug. The experience of the ENT appeared conclusive, his approach certain, his deeper examination, (wherein he probed deep into my nose, with anaesthetics,) confirmed his diagnosis. He showed me the evidence on the (TV) Monitor connected to his probing device, and I was convinced that he was the very first person I'd seen (in 60 years of dealing with this,) who didn't just want to experiment with the latest drug; he knew what he was talking about, and had a track record to back it up. I was (almost, but with reservations,) convinced that it was worth a try. He wasn't wanting to disconnect nerves, disfigure my body, or put me on steroids. It was a simple procedure, I was out of the (freestanding) surgical facility in 2 hours, and I've not had an episode since. I waited until now, because of the very reason you asked the question: was it just a cluster-free period, pr not? I'm now convinced he was right, and posted my experience, in hopes it would help others. (Anyone who experiences these, wants to help other sufferrers!) I hope this helps you, Jeremy; if you want, email me directly: I'll answer any questions you have, including the name of the doctor. Len Rogers rrogersjr@ft.newyorklife.com |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by ave on Nov 27th, 2003, 10:17am Getting back to a thread I followed some time ago. I have so many more questions, Len Rogers... I never had clusters till I was past 50; where were the bone spurs all that time? I always use the salt water route for sinus probs. Why has it never helped me get rid of my clusters? Since the change of life I became a victim of clusters; at the same time my mucus layer is atrophying. I have never had so little sinus trouble in my life! Yet if I am to believe you and jeremy and the scientific papers refered to, clusters may be caused by swelling in the nasal cavity. Clusterheads (I amopng them) have tried the nose plasters sportsmen use, to breathe more freely, especially at night. Does it surprise you they did not help against clusters, despite the fact that my nasal passage opens out very nicely and air can flow in unhindered? If a true and dependable cure for clusters came around the corner I'd be the first to get out the bunting. It's just that to be a good cure it would have to work for everybody. So far your doc has not convinced me. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Nov 27th, 2003, 11:27pm Have you tried Oxygen? It was my only reliable, (but not 100%) source of rellief while in a headache. (I had never heard about the salt water rinse... if it works for you, why not? As for the nose patch, I've tried them, with no relief. Len |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by jep22 on Nov 28th, 2003, 12:07am Where are the bone spurs during periods of remission. I mean they are still there - right? Why aren't they causing problems then? Jim P. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Nov 28th, 2003, 1:18am Jim: Of course, they're still there. When "conditions" develop that cause a swelling of the nasal tissues, evidently it triggers a cluster, or an attack. The doctor used the example of a knife point ever so slightly removed from your skin. Move, or swell the skin, and it will cause pain. My clusters often coincided with alllergy seasons, hence my initial question to him. Heat and high humidity, high allergy counts, etc., would be the most common things, as I recall. Len |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Lori on Nov 28th, 2003, 11:54pm This is very interesting and I'd love to think this is the answer, BUT from reading this follow info from the above link "Triggers of headaches involving septal spurs include anything that cause the intranasal cavity to swell. Hormones, environmental changes, health conditions, and allergies to food and beverages can all lead to intranasal swelling of the turbinates against a bone spur, triggering a headache. Women who suffer headaches during their menstrual cycle do so because of hormonal imbalances which lead to retention of water that causes the turbinates to become engorged and swell against a septal spur or deviation. This same mechanism can explain why women during pregnancy can get migraine headaches. Most common etiologies are those of allergies, colds, and flu that commonly lead to nasal congestion due to turbinate engorgement. This pressure against the septum can cause headaches. The location of these headaches is typically around the forehead, temples, top of the head, or can be located around the eyes, nose, and cheek regions. " This would make me wonder why I don't have clusters ALL the time. I get a cycle every 2-2 1/2 yrs but I sneeze and react to many things on a regular basis..especially my monthly..I get it monthly. :) So why don't I have my cluster HA all the time if this is true?? I would love to think it's just a bone spur causing my clusters. I fear not though. Maybe it's more true for migrainer sufferers?? I don't know. Hope this has worked for you though. |
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Title: Re: Nasal Bone Spurs Post by Len_Rogers on Nov 30th, 2003, 9:10pm Lori: Thankfully, your clusters are that far apart! The article you quoted from was VERY interesting, as most items link directly to culsters. I don't know about the migraine part, but I DO know about the cluster part. My clusters were sometimes separated by long periods, some as many as 2 or 3 years. Always, I had the lingering possibility that... they were gone because of my age, or, they were just in remission, about to pop up again, ready to ruin my life some more. Much of the article is right on point, by my judgement and experience. Unknown allergies, and therefore unknown allergens, appeared to trigger a new cluster-- not noticed by me, ("I've never been allergic to anything!") but by my new spouse. And, it rang true-- a physician from the '70's, who also was a "clusterhead", annouced to me, "changes of seasons are particularly difficult". My experience agreed. And, it's been ever so... Until my new ENT's certainty, and his nasal probes, and his showing me his "spurs in a jar". And, my lack of a cluster in a year that would certainly have triggered new clusters. Unfortunately, my doctor has never written or published anything to back up his conclusions. I wish he would... clusterheads all over the world need it... but, I think he doesn't know how domineering clusters can be. Lori, find a doctor who is willing to invest in modern equipment to further his practice. I don't know what the device is called, but it creates an immediate image on a monitor, and confirmed his diagnosis. Best of luck to you-- unfortunately, this might take some luck. Len |
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