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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2003 >> Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins?
        
(Message started by: kbbogo1 on Aug 11^th, 2003, 9:55am)

Title: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins?
Post by kbbogo1 on Aug 11^th, 2003, 9:55am

I did a search on the hypothalamus gland and thyroid with not too much results. Since many believe that the hypothalamus gland is associated with clusters, and hypothalamus gland is also associated with the thyroid - does anyone else also experience hypothyroid symptoms with an episodic cluster cycle? It seems that every time, before I get my clusters again, I experience depression, being lethargic, hair loss, no concentration, among other "hypothyroid symptoms". When I go to the doctor for this, he automatically thinks it is my thyroid causing the problem, but my blood tests come back within the normal range. (However, my metabolic rate drops dramatically, from around 1765 down to around 1350.) I told my doctor that my clusters started acting up again shortly after these symptoms began, but he apparently didn't see any relation. I would love to here from anyone on this topic - whether you, too, have these symptoms or even if you think I am off my rocker!

Thanks
Kim B

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by godsjoy on Aug 11^th, 2003, 6:36pm

I think you might have something there...I have similar symptoms right before and during my episodes....Last time the Dr. upped my synthroid as well....don't know if it is related.....but .....something to investigate I think.
Karen

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by 5-string on Aug 11^th, 2003, 6:47pm

I have a hypothyriod as well. I never that that the 2 were related.
how many other ch. people have this connection? I was diagnosed with it around the time my headaches started. about 4 years ago.
Mark

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by jminmilwaukee on Aug 12^th, 2003, 8:25am

This could be a trigger from some that kicks off a new cycle? Athough I get depressed a bit prior to an episode it is normally due to knowing it is coming. No hair loss or other symptoms you mentioned until well into the cycle (pull out my hair while banging my head with a brick!).

Again, worth looking into as it could be a symptom or a trigger for some.

Jmin

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by floridian on Aug 12^th, 2003, 9:02am

Here's one article that concludes that T3 thyroid hormone is significantly lower in a group of people with horton's headache (aka cluster headache). Does your doctor check for T3 and T4, or just T4? There has been some debate over what forms to test for and prescribe, but it may have cleared up in recent years.

Neurol Neurochir Pol. 1981 Sep-Dec;15(5-6):569-73. Related Articles, Links

[Thyrotropic and thyroid hormone (T3 and T4) content in Horton' s headache patients]

[Article in Polish]
Klimek A, owczarczyk I, Gluszcz-Zielinska A.

In 18 men with Horton's headaches the levels of the following hormones were determined in the serum: TSH, T3 and T4. The determinations were performed during disease relapse and before starting treatment. The control group included 18 blood donors. In the control group the mean TSH level was 3.97 +/- 0.88 microunits/ml, T4 level was 109.06 +/- 26.88 nmol/l, and T3 1.48 +/- 0.14 nmol/l. In the group of patients the mean values were: 2.58 +/- 2.09 microunits/ml, 97.62 +/- 21.81 nmol/l, 1.07 +/- 0.21 nmol/l respectively. The analysis of the results showed statistically significant differences in the concentrations of T3 between the compared groups. In the light of these results the authors believe that there is not sufficient support of the hypothesis on a hypothalamic pathogenesis of the disease. The causes of reduced T3 concentration in these patients are discussed.

PMID: 7342000 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by floridian on Aug 12^th, 2003, 9:10am

The involvement of the thyroid makes sense. Other biochemicals known to be disordered in CH are VIP (vasoactive intestinal protein) and prolactin. A quick browse of the literature shows that thyroid hormone affects VIP production, and VIP regulates prolactin production. There is an "axis" or feedback system between the thyroid and hypothalamus. Messing this up could be a trigger or a cause of cluster headaches.

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by kbbogo1 on Aug 12^th, 2003, 2:20pm

Hmmmm....interesting. Thanks for the info and your input. I, also, always assumed my depression was due to me knowing the ch's were coming. But my depression (more like an overall sadness) and fatigue get progressively worse - to the point of being extreme -as my clusters peak in frequency, and then it starts going away as my clusters start tapering off. But there are too many other symptoms I have that sound like they are hypothyroid. I had all the thyroid blood test done, with the exception of the thyroid antibody test. From some of the articles I have read, it sounds as though all the testing I have had is usless and that it is the thyroid antibody test I may need.
I, like many here, had been to all sorts of doctors before being diagnosed with clusters. But, I have never been to an endocrinologist - because it never occured to me until now. Maybe it is something to look into.

Kim B

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Smurf on Aug 13^th, 2003, 1:00pm

:D I am so happy to find all of you!!!! I have been a sufferer now for 19 years, and even though my husband and family try to understand, they just don't get it like you do. I've felt so alone all these years, especially when doctors tell me thngs like, "headaches can't be that bad, just take an aspirin", or "you can't have Clusters, only men get them". The fact is I suffer from both Clusters and Migraines. And there is a MAJOR difference. (Give me a migraine any day over a Cluster!)

I'm in a series right now. Last series was 2+1/2 years ago and that one lasted 7 weeks. It was about that time that my doctor did diagnose me with hypothyroid and I have been on Synthroid since. I started theorizing and researching from that point. I found out that when I'm on Lithium (which doesn't seem to do anything), it kind of cancels the Synthroid because my thyroid test results go back up around 13. But, maybe it's the clusters themselves causing this?

Also, the back of my neck kills me in an agonizing way during an attack. Putting an ice pack at the base of my neck (where the hypothalamus is, I believe) really helps (I also do 1/2 Imitrex and oxygen - my doctor will only prescribe 6 pills per week; nice when I get 2-3 headaches a day). I've been going to the Chiropractor 3x per week and wow does the base of my neck crack! Feels good. Could we be have pinched nerves/swelling to the hypothalamus??URLhttp://URL :) :D

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by 5-string on Aug 13^th, 2003, 2:41pm

Hey smurf,
I'm new to this group as well. I was diagnosed with hypothyroid when I had my first major attack 4 years ago. The synthroid however,did not prevent them from returning,so I assumed they were not related. 11 months later I was diagnosed as having cluster headaches.That's all I was told,was given some vicoprofen, and that was that. I'm wondering if increasing synthroid dosage before they start would curb them...? being 4 weeks into one with no sign of exiting right now,hell,I'm game.
Is this going to kill me? feedback?
Mark

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by floridian on Aug 13^th, 2003, 5:55pm

Mark,

yes, it is potentially dangerous to up your thyroid med without doing some research and talking to a qualified doctor ... probably not the average overworked general practitioner.

Other thoughts: synthroid is only T4. Most doctors assume everyone can convert T4 (non-active) into the T3 hormone (which is active). The article I referenced earlier said that the significant difference in horton headache sufferers was a low T3 level. Maybe the metabolic weak link is the de-iodination of T4 to T3. Boosting the synthroid dose would not solve the problem if this is true. Selenium is essential for the conversion of T4 to T3; maybe a moderate supplement of selenium will help. (Too little is bad, but too much causes the loss of hair, impotence, and insanity. The term "loco weed" was originally applied to fodder in the arid Southwest that accumulated so much selenium that it poisoned the horses and made them crazy).

Or, Maybe there is enough thyroid hormone, but it is not being utilized properly by the cells across the body. This is what happens in type II diabetes (and other analogous diseases) - insulin is produced, but the various cells do not have enough receptors to catch the insulin and activate the cell the way the insulin should.

Keep exploring, but don't play around with your regimen. When dealing with a serious disease like hypothyroidism, diabetes, or asthma, do talk to your doctor, and only change one thing at a time. Otherwise, you don't know what is pushing your body in which direction, and can cause serious problems.

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by 5-string on Aug 14^th, 2003, 9:14am

floridian,
Thank you for the advise,thats my typical"more must be better"thinking.you have givin us alot of info to research.
I'm so greatful I found y'all.
Mark.

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Smurf on Aug 14^th, 2003, 12:18pm

:o Mark,
I have to agree with Floridian. Even though it's hard to find an understanding physician on the CH issue, it's best to consult one before self-medicating.

What is Vicoprofin? How does it work for you?

It also sounds like you need to research a new doctor. Ask about Oxygen treatments. I'm tryng to find one in my area who actually suffers the "disease". I'm tired of a lack-lustre response from the putzs I've seen so far. Hang in there! I've been in Attack Session mode for three weeks now. I pray for all of us while I'm sucking on the O2.

P.S. Even though I have a hypothyroid - I never had any symptoms that I could tell. It was found out merely by a thorough blood test. ???

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by 5-string on Aug 14^th, 2003, 1:40pm

vicoprofin is a muscle relaxer. I did'nt put it together until I took it.
it's vicodin(nartocic) and ibuprofin. I personally need to stay away from that kind of thing being "sober" and all. so I can't risk endulging in that kind of stuff.
I do have an appt. w/ a neuroligist. so maybe she can do something. though its not until sept.6. hopefully this cycle will be gone by then. I feel like printing this whole sight to show her. I think I'll just highlight some of it for her.
I feel your pain.harharhar. hang in there,
Mark

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Smurf on Aug 14^th, 2003, 1:50pm

Let us know how your dr. visit goes. Best of luck. :D

I was on Stadol for attacks, and my dr. all but accused me of being a drug addict, but frankly, I did not like the buzzed feeling from that at all. It worked, but boy did it wipe me out. :'(

Title: More Interesting Research
Post by floridian on Aug 15^th, 2003, 9:43am

Low thyroid hormones increase serotonin turn over in the brain stem and lower serotonin levels in brain cortex regions. Correcting low thyroid hormones increases the number of serotonin receptors in the brain cortex. From:

Thyroid hormones, serotonin and mood: of synergy and significance in the adult brain.
Bauer M, Heinz A, Whybrow PC.
University of California Los Angeles (UCLA), Neuropsychiatric Institute & Hospital, Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences, 760 Westwood Plaza, Los Angeles, CA 90024, USA. mjbauer@mednet.ucla.edu
_______________________________________________
Serotonin increases and decreases T4 to T3 conversion in different tissues.

Can J Physiol Pharmacol. 2003 Jul;81(7):747-51.ks
Serotonin effect on deiodinating activity in the rat.
Sullo A, Brizzi G, Maffulli N.
Second University of Naples, Faculty of Medicine and Surgery, Department of Experimental Medicine, Human Physiology Section, Napoli, Italy.
_______________________________________________
MDMA ("Ecstasty") is a Serotonin Mimic that increases body temperature, often with life threatening consequences.

J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2003 Apr;305(1):159-66.
Hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis and sympathetic nervous system involvement in hyperthermia induced by 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (Ecstasy).
Sprague JE, Banks ML, Cook VJ, Mills EM.
The Department of Pharmaceutical and Biomedical Sciences, The Raabe College of Pharmacy, Ohio Northern University, Ada, Ohio 45810, USA. j-sprague@onu.edu

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by BillyJ. on Aug 15^th, 2003, 11:42am

on 08/14/03 at 13:40:58, 5-string wrote:

vicoprofin is a muscle relaxer.

No its not- http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic2/vicoprofen.htm

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by 5-string on Aug 15^th, 2003, 4:57pm

:-X sorry, thanks for the correction. I always assumed that narcotic based pain meds were considered muscle relaxers. Now I know better. Sorry I missed informed you.

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by judyw on Aug 16^th, 2003, 1:18pm

Interesting thread...Never really thought of this connection...but makes some sense...I have been chronic CH since 76 having started as a child...Spent many painful episodes being told the usual...women don't get CH, must be migraine, PMS, etc...did not have thyroid dx until I brought a lump on my neck to the attention of my newest doctor in 96...Lost that to surgery, and instantly put on Synthroid...always attempting to balance the numbers, until In 2000 a chiropharmacist friend asked about the T3/T4 factors and had I considered taking Cytomel in conjunction with Synthroid...have finally gotten a good number on my blood work and feeling a little more like getting on with life...Though, the lazyboy is still my favorite chair...lol...I still get the Sr Moment mentality more when CH is in the wings...Wishing all pfdan....

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by kbbogo1 on Aug 16^th, 2003, 6:44pm

Thought this might be worth mentioning too, my clusters started shortly after the birth of my first child. (although not diagnosed for 6 years) Coincidentally, it is quite common for thyroid problems to occur in women after having a baby.

Just curious, how many women on the site starting getting clusters after having a kid?

I know your frustration, Judyw, about going thru the ringer with doctors and testing. Been there, done that! It is hard to get diagnosed when you don't fit in the "norm" of what they consider a typical clusterhead - overweight male, over 40, who drinks and smokes heavily, sometimes with a dimpled chin. No, I don't think that is me! ;D

Kim B

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Smurf on Aug 18^th, 2003, 7:59am

Kim,
I've never been pregnant.
Smurf

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Woobie on Aug 20^th, 2003, 11:46pm

THIS is VeRY interesting.

Ramon's family is CRAZY full of bad thyroids. I dont know if it's hereditary, or not. His mother just had surgery as a matter of fact.

And I KNOW that before a cycle all he wants to do is sleep... and you cannot talk to the man --he's so damned irritable.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

tina :-*

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Linda T on Aug 21^st, 2003, 7:15pm

This is very interesting indeed!

I had my first cluster episode in 1984. In 1992 the doc found a lump in my throat and I had the scan and ultrasound and determined that I had a "multi-nodular" thyroid. The largest of the nodes was biopsied. It was negative but I was put on synthroid. I was told that the synthroid would supress any further nodules from growing.

Funny thing - when my cluster hits I feel it first in my thoat just about where the lump is. The pain shoots up my face and into my temple and behind my eye. The pain is usually a kip 10 within seconds. I told my neuro this and he said it had something to do with the carotid artery (who knows).

Sometime during the 90's I stupidly decided I didn't need the synthroid anymore and I stopped taking it. In 1995 I had a four month cluster episode - after my son was born in 1197 I had a two week episode and most recently I had a 5 month episode.

Several months ago I went to the GP because I had hair loss and my hands always felt like they were falling asleep. Also, my ankles were swelling terribly. Blood work was done to determine whether it was my thyroid. THe blood work came back o.k. I did go see an endocrinologist and he wants me to get another scan and another biopsy. He says he's not sure that synthroid will do me any good at this point.

That's my thyroid story. I too tried to make a connection between the thryoid and ch but didn't come up with much either.

Maybe there is some thing to it.

Good luck. Wishing you all PFDAN always, Linda T

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by kbbogo1 on Sep 11^th, 2003, 1:31pm

Well, my thyroid test all came back within the normal range. I feel like crap and the Dr. agrees that I have all the symptoms of being hypothyroid. He went with the test results and decided to put me on Effexor - antidepressant ( I am NOT taking). Back to all the docs thinking I am a looney!!

Kim B

Title: Re: Hypothyroid Symptoms when Cluster Cycle begins
Post by Tom on Sep 12^th, 2003, 2:36pm

Thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) is released from the hypothalamus

-> to the pituitary gland, that releases thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH, , which is inhibited by the arrival of somatostatin from the hypothalamus)

-> that, as its name suggests, stimulates the thyroid gland to secrete its hormones

• thyroxine (T4)
• triiodothyronine ( T3)

There is a negative feed back between the T3 + T4 levels and the amount of the released TRH.

Thomas