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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2003 >> Red Red Wine.
        
(Message started by: JoeKen on Jun 7^th, 2003, 4:08pm)

Title: Red Red Wine.
Post by JoeKen on Jun 7^th, 2003, 4:08pm

???
This question is aimed at some of our readers from the red wine producing areas, who might have some inside knowledge of the production of wine on an industrial scale.
I have been reading a few of the postings on "Trigger Article" and it got me thinking. I have a life long history of headaches, including migraines for the last 50 years and I have recently been diagnosed by a consultant Neuro as having Cluster Headaches, but they do not appear to be the same CH as most of you guys experience. (Read the footnote! ).
I believe that it is accepted generally that CH medication is also effective for migraines, which suggests that the two have something in common, even if it isn't the intensity and frequency of the pain.
My CHs are definitely not migraine, but sometimes I am not sure whether I am having a severe migraine or a low Kip CH, or both.
I know from long experience that red wine acts as a trigger for my migraines, some more than others, and the degree of headache it generates adds a further dimension to how I judge a wine. Half a bottle of red can leave me in severe (migraine) pain for 24 hours, or with a mildly disconcerting 'fuzziness' behind the eyes, but it always leaves me with some degree of discomfort.
On a recent holiday in southern italy we got to drinking the local red wine , which came to the table in carafes, rather than bottles. Night after night we were drinking it by the litre, different wines in different restaurants, and not once did I have any feint suggestion of a headache afterwards. Which leads me to the conclusion that it is not the alcohol which triggers the headaches, but the chemicals that the industrial scale wine producers put in their brew to 'improve' it. This would also explain why the headahes caused by bottled wine do not increase in severity with their alcohol content, it seems to be random.
Can anyone throw any light on the ingredients of wine, other than alcohol, which might trigger migraines or CHs.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
JoeKen

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by cbolony on Jun 7^th, 2003, 4:47pm

Quote:

Can anyone throw any light on the ingredients of wine, other than alcohol, which might trigger migraines or CHs.

Any alcohol for me

Quote:

CH medication is also effective for migraines, which suggests that the two have something in common, even if it isn't the intensity and frequency of the pain.

joeken triptan are all Migraines meds that we use for CH
Not enough CH people for the drug makers to make money on :) :)

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by oringkid on Jun 7^th, 2003, 6:02pm

I've heard that it is tannins in red wine and other stuff that is thought to trigger migraine and other headaches as well.

I can't drink any red wine as one sip will give me a regular headache. Never drink it, so don't know what it would do to my clusters... but since all other alcohol triggers an unsheduled CH attack when I am in cycle, I would imagine red wine would to.

Try looking up tannins. Since tannins are in many things it may have to do with the concentration levels.

Sherry

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by Bob_Johnson on Jun 8^th, 2003, 8:30am

Perhaps, a little different with cluster. With most folks, alcohol does not cause a cluster cycle to begin but, once in an active period, it will trigger an attack. When the cycle has ended, we can return to using alcohol.

I found an interesting study, coming out Europe, which found that white wine did not trigger attacks but red wines did. No explanation offered but, given the enormous chemical complexity of red wines, it would be a long, long study understand the mechanism at work.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by Roxy on Jun 8^th, 2003, 11:18am

I can drink red wine (which is my absolute favorite drink), and not have it trigger an attack. But......if I have even the slightest shadow, or my head is just slightly bent, and headed in the ch direction.....I can't even look at a glass of red wine or my head will accelerate. White wine does not do this for some reason.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by ave on Jun 8^th, 2003, 1:05pm

Many red wines are "fortified" with sulfites. Even in Europe. Though there are still some growers who refuse to use additives - and keep the best, undoctored wines for their own use. That must have been what you were drinking.

In this country cheap (doctored) red wines are known as "Chateau Migraine".

Alcoghol is no t56rigger for me and neither is the colour of the wine. I do know that sweet strong alcohol (cocktails or liqueurs) will make me very sick and give me a headache. Wines and whisky's don't.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by gene on Jun 9^th, 2003, 1:36am

Red/ White/ beer any hard liquor/ saki will trigger a severe 10 when in cycle gauranteed within an hour.

Half the time when not in cycle it will trigger a bad migraine on the opposite side of my head from the clusters. When not in a cycle and get a migraine from a drink, after the headache leaves I can drink all I want with no risk of another attack. Also if I drink alot at night/ the next day I can drink risk free.
Gene

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by suzy617 on Jun 9^th, 2003, 4:15am

I dont drink wine but when in cycle I can not go near a beer. I can however drink vodka with no effects. I also noticed that if I drink alot of vodka I will skip the middle of the night CH.

suzy

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by badfly on Jun 9^th, 2003, 6:22am

Im not really a heavy drinker, and never touch white wine anyway, so I cant say if white wine is a trigger for me or not. Out of cycle I drink freely with no headaches or symtoms as a result. When in cycle however, just a sip of red wine, beer, whisky, bourban or Tequilla is garrenteed to trigger a 10 and make me wish I were a vegtable or worse.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by floridian on Jun 14^th, 2003, 9:25am

Sulfites are used more with white wines than red - the sulfite not only keeps out spoilage bacteria, it also prevents the white wine from oxidizing and turning yellow or brown. So I don't think it is the sulfites that are the main trigger. Red wine is usually more powerful than white for other reasons.

Red wine can contain large amounts of tyramine, an amino acid compound that has a strong effect on blood vessels. It raises blood pressure by causing blood vessels to contract, and when it wears off, the blood vessels expand (maybe pinching on a nerve??) People taking anti-depressant drugs called MAO inhibitors are told to stay away from things like red wine, cheese, and certain beans because the MAOI increase the action of tyramine, and it can send their blood pressure through the roof.

Maybe the red wine you drank that didn't cause a headache didn't have much tyramine. The tannins that someone mentioned are a grab bag of chemicals that vary from wine variety to variety - maybe in this case, the particular blend of tannins in that wine were a protectant. Or maybe your body was able to resist red wine this time, but the same red wine might trigger in the future when you are in a different part of a cycle - impossible to say without further information.

It seems that alcohol itself is a trigger. Any type of alcohol will increase Nitric Oxide production, and nitric oxide is probably one important trigger.

Different alcoholic products contain different amounts of ketones, esters, and other by-products that can have biological effects. Cheap distilled alcohol can have loads of these (fusel oil), which can make a headache/hangover worse.

Title: Oops - not tyramine
Post by floridian on Jun 14^th, 2003, 10:50am

Just browsed over to Pubmed and saw this abstract - oops! tyramine may not be the culprit. (yeah - I know clusters and migraines ain't the same thing, but they do share a lot of behaviors)

"Patients with migraine who believed that red wine but not alcohol in general had a headache-provoking effect on them were challenged either with red wine or with a vodka and diluent mixture of equivalent alcohol content, both consumed cold out of dark bottles to disguise colour and flavour. The red wine, which had a negligible tyramine content, provoked a typical migraine attack in 9 of 11 such patients, whereas none of the 8 challenged with vodka had an attack. Neither red wine nor vodka provoked such episodes in other migrainous subjects or controls. These findings show that red wine contains a migraine-provoking agent that is neither alcohol nor tyramine."

Lancet. 1988 Mar 12;1(8585):558-9. Related Articles, Links
Red wine as a cause of migraine. Littlewood JT, Gibb C, Glover V, Sandler M, Davies PT, Rose FC. Bernhard Baron Memorial Research Laboratories, Queen Charlotte's Hospital, London.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by JoeKen on Jun 18^th, 2003, 3:41pm

:)
Hi Floridian,
Thanks for your input. Let me add a bit more (to the general confusion: -
1)During our holiday in Italy we drank in many restaurants and, when we quickly discovered that one local wine was very pleasant and did not give either of us any problems the following day, we requested local wine (served in a carafe, no bottle, no label, no name) in all the other restaurants that we dined in. They were many, spread far and wide. It would be a remarkable coincidence for them all to be sourced from the same producer, but none of them gave even the slightest suggestion of a headache the next morning. This leads me to believe that it was the method of production, rather than the producer, that gave that result.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by JoeKen on Jun 18^th, 2003, 3:53pm

:)
Hi again Floridian,
I don't know what happened last time but I was trying to edit point 1) before adding point 2) and it got posted, so here is point 2): -
I have a long history of headaches which are triggered by alcoholic drinks. My daughter, who has a degree in Food Technogy and keeps herself informed on this subject as she teaches it at High School, advised that it was probably the additives, rather than the alcohol content itself, which triggered the headache. Knowing that Vodka affected me least of all, and as I am fond of drinking the stuff, she gave me a bottle of Organic Vodka as a birthday present.
The effect was horrendous, each time that I had a small sample drink, the resultant headaches were among the worst that I have ever had from drinking alcohol.
Assuming that organically produced Vodka, labelled as containing no additives, was what it said on the label, how do we explain the headaches? I suspect that the producer has a credibility problem, but how does anyone prove it!!
Thanks again for your input.
JoeKen.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by ijunG4 on Jun 19^th, 2003, 8:38am

Off-cycle, I can drink just about anything (in sane quantities) without serious consequences, certainly no CH.

During cycle is a different matter. My cycle was tapering off towards the end last year, so I thought it was safe to start with at least NA (non-alcoholic) beer. As many of you know, NA beer is labeled as "under 0.5%" alcohol content. Well, the NA beer (one bottle) still managed to trigger an attack that I am confident would not have otherwise happened!

I have not tried vodka yet, though.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by JoeKen on Jun 19^th, 2003, 11:08am

Hi ijung4,
I work on the basis that it is not the acohol content of alcoholic drinks that tempts the beast to come out of it's lair, it's the other things that industrial brewers put in their concoctions, and this must be even more true for de-alcoholised beer. Please try to bear that possibility in mind when assessing the impact - industrial brewing is no longer a natural process, it is a chemical industry with no obligation to declare the ingredients that go into it's products, unlike most other things that we put down our throats.
JoeKen

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by ijunG4 on Jun 20^th, 2003, 7:13am

JoeKen,

I see your point.

For the purposes of research and truly understanding the underlying causes of why alcoholic beverages seem to trigger CH (esp.when there are virtually no other common triggers), it is very important to distinguish whether it is the pure alcohol itself or the additives that are actually causing it.

From a daily, practical perspective, we might as well give up on drinking off-the-shelf alcoholic beverages if the additives are common to most brewing/distilling processes.

But, if that organic vodka was truly organic, then the additive theory does not work. Perhaps there is a common and natural by-product of producing alcohol that was specifically removed by a different process unique to the local Italian red wine, and perhaps in some vodkas.

Suzy617-
What's the exact brand of vodka that works for you? Have you tried other brands?

Jun

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by CJohnson on Jun 20^th, 2003, 7:44am

I like to wash my nitro-glycerine pills down with red wine before I take my nap, when I'm in cycle. :)
Seriously, though, here is an excerpt from, and a link to, a discussion about alcohol affecting circadean rhythm.

Alcohol and circadean rhythm:
"In animals with complex nervous systems, the basic molecular oscillator described previously is contained within thousands of individual circadian pacemaker nerve cells (i.e., neurons). Normally, circadian rhythm-generating processes are synchronized among this population of neurons by one or more mechanisms of intercellular communication. Thus, at the nerve-cell-systems level of analysis, the effects of alcohol on the circadian pacemaker could be mediated by pharmacological effects on particular neurotransmitter or neuromodulator systems that mediate intercellular communication."
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-2/126-135.htm

PFDANs
-Curtis

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by gtar_man on Jun 20^th, 2003, 2:24pm

Prof. Mike's theorum:

"The desire to engage in any behavior is inversely proportional to the probability and intensity of unwanted consequences".

You guys are pounding your toes with a hammer and debating if the size, weight and hammer manufacturer makes any difference in the pain.

Jeeeeez, Beave ...::).

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by ijunG4 on Jun 20^th, 2003, 5:31pm

Yeah, true, but wouldn't it be great if we found a way to get stone drunk without fearing an attack?
;)

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by gtar_man on Jun 20^th, 2003, 9:07pm

When you find some booze that makes it go away, we'll all become alcoholics... 8)

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by JoeKen on Jun 21^st, 2003, 3:59pm

gtar_man,
You wrote: -
"When you find some booze that makes it go away, we'll all become alcoholics..."
If you read one of my earlier posts you will see that it is possible to find the next best thing, namely red wine made locally in southern Italy, that comes in a carafe, without a name, and is served 'loose'. The whole thread of this topic is that it is not alcohol that triggers the headaches, but the crap that the industrial winemakers and brewers use to 'improve' their product.
A little earlier you wrote "You guys are pounding your toes with a hammer and debating if the size, weight and hammer manufacturer makes any difference in the pain."
Not a particular constructive or helpful comment - isn't that what this site was set up for?
I happen to enjoy good wines and beers and many other alcoholic drinks - unfortunately most of them trigger a headache, and I am sure that it is the same or even worse for many others. I thought that other people might like to try for themselves whether it was possible to get a little 'happy' on alcohol without the adverse side effects that most of us get afterwards. Why should we have to give up some of the good things in life when it may not be necessary? Unless we find out for ourselves, nobody else is going to tell us - lighten up a bit.
JoeKen.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by gtar_man on Jun 22^nd, 2003, 9:08am

Joe -
Considering the severity of CH pain, I just feel it makes little sense to play with anything that might kick it into gear. However, given the lengthy list of things that supposedly trigger vascular headaches, you can't stay away from 'em all and still participate in life. You pays yer nickle and you takes yer chances.
I was shadowing pretty heavily the other day so if I came across as ornery, I apologize.
Mike

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by JoeKen on Jun 23^rd, 2003, 2:21pm

:)
gtar_man (Mike),
No apology necessary. I don't know where it is likely to lead, if anywhere, but we CH sufferes lose enough quality of life with the pain, without the added downside of having to give up some of the finer things in life, if it is not necessary, so I thought that it may be a good idea to see if anyone has experienced the same after effects as I have.
I am particularly fond of red wine and my tolerance to it seems to vary enough for me to keep drinking the stuff. I am not a 'classic' CH sufferer, my headaches usually peek about KIP 7 or 8 , but the can go on for 36 hours and I can get them 2 or 3 times a week when in cycle. A Consultant Neuro has diagnosed them as CH and I know that they are very different from my usual migraines, but they are not the usual CH, judging by what I read on this board.
I am convinced beyond doubt that it is not the alcohol in the alcoholic drink that causes the problem, but the garbage that the industrial distillers, winemakers and brewers put in the concoctions to 'improve' them.
Because there is no legislation in the UK, Europe or anywhere else that I am aware of that makes it necessary for the ingredients to be listed on the label, unlike virtually every other foodstuff, we could literally be pouring anything down our throats. The only thing that this 'shit' improves is their profits but I suspect that a lot of us are paying the price in a very painful way. As an example I know that 'Aspartane', aka 'Phenylalanine', an artificial sweetener that is put in non-alcoholic and low calorie drinks (for which the ingredients must be listed) in the UK and Europe, but which I believe has been banned in the USA, definitely triggers my CH at a KIP scale directly proportional to the quantity consumed.
I wanted to see if anyone else has any thoughts on this subject.
PFDANs.
JoeKen.

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by ijunG4 on Jun 24^th, 2003, 12:00pm

Joe and Mike,

Glad to see you're getting along now; I agree with both of you actually.

Just because we have CH doesn't mean we have to sacrifice any more of our normal lives than we have to, including enjoying good wine.

OTOH, if we do find a way to safely consume alcohol, then getting drunk now and then, if not becoming an outright alcoholic, is fairly reasonable with our condition. I'm not promoting alcoholism, but I'm sure many alcoholics drink with less problems in their lives than CH.

As for the artificial sweeteners, I have no idea. I thought aspartame was still around, although I stick to the natural stuff myself so I really don't have a clue.

iJunG4

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by cathy on Jun 24^th, 2003, 2:16pm

What a pleasant and polite thread, informative and interesting....

The only thing I can add is Red Wine gives me horrendous headaches....but I can drink anything else with no effects....Im a supporter not a sufferer....

Wes cannot drink anything in or out of cycle EXCEPT vodka...vodka will not give him a CH.... ???

Cathy

Title: Re: Red Red Wine.
Post by ijunG4 on Jun 24^th, 2003, 2:49pm

Thanks Cathy!

Could you possibly share the exact BRAND of vodka?

Joe got supposedly organic vodka but didn't work. It seems some vodka is OK but not others. I'd like to try vodka myself, but I'd rather know what a proven brand is (at least for someone) if I'm running the risk of shelling out good money for a possible self-induced attack!

I'll go out and buy some as soon as you let me know.

iJunG5
(not alcoholic but curious)