Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2003 >> Salvia and Shrooms
        
(Message started by: chrismo on May 20th, 2003, 5:20pm)
Title: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by chrismo on May 20th, 2003, 5:20pm
There is a new drug among the young crowd these days. It is called Salvia... no not saliva ;D. It is a pretty intense hallucinogen with similar, but greater effects than shrooms. I have seen posts here about shrooms being used to treat cluster headaces. I don't exactly know the specifics.
    Salvia is smoked like marijuana through pipes, bongs, etc. but normally not smoked through joints. It is currently legal in California! Though I don't know how long that will last. Following is a link that contains tons of information about salvia

http://www.sagewisdom.org

and the FAQ:
http://www.sagewisdom.org
   
Anyway what I am trying to get at is if anyone knows if there are any similarities between salvia and shrooms and their effects on cluster headaches.
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by jonny on May 20th, 2003, 6:57pm

on 05/20/03 at 17:20:57, chrismo wrote:
 I have seen posts here about shrooms being used to treat cluster headaces. I don't exactly know the specifics, just that Jonny seems to be the emperor of that relm 8)...


Lets get one thing straight, I have never done shrooms for CH, I have never told anyone to do shrooms for CH.

I will never tell anyone NOT to try shrooms for CH.

Where do you get that I know anything about shrooms ?, please get your facts straight before you put my name in your post!!!

.............................................jonny
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by chrismo on May 20th, 2003, 8:58pm
Oh shit jonny i am sorri i got the names ALL confused! I ment to put the name tommyD.. Tommy/Jonny shit gets messed up. I fixed the original post. sorry about that.
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by tommyD on May 21st, 2003, 6:05am
Chrismo -

I'm not the Emperor of much of anything, LOL.

Off the top of my head, I don't think salvia will do much good for clusters

The hallucinogens that work to stop clusters include an indole ring as part of their molecular structure. These include LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, LSA, and a few others. This class of chemicals does not include all hallucinogens.  And my memory is poor usually, and real bad when I haven't had enough coffee in the morning, l but I don't think salvia is one of them, (nor is Ecstasy).

And here is a warning from ther folks at Erowid about salvia:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia_info3.shtml

Anyway, Flash, pinksharkmark and pinkfloyd are the gurus of the "shroom treatment," and Ueli is the "Emperor Of All Things Pharmacological." I'm hoping one of them will show up with better information.

By the way, Jonny is the Emperor of Oxygen, King of the General Message Board, and the Marquis of Metalwork. Ask him to show you his bollard.  ;)

-tommyD
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by jonny on May 21st, 2003, 2:03pm

on 05/21/03 at 06:05:08, tommyD wrote:
By the way, Jonny is the Emperor of Oxygen, King of the General Message Board, and the Marquis of Metalwork. Ask him to show you his bollard.  ;)


LMMFAO...Tommy ;D

No harm done Chrismo, Thanks for clearing it up.

.................................jonny
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 21st, 2003, 3:46pm
Ok, I don't know much about mushroom therapy, but I sure am an expert in Salvia divinorum, to be correct. I even posted about it a few months ago.

I have not tried Salvia while having a CH. What I do know is that Salvia is very powerful, but the effect only lasts for less than 2 or 3 minutes. If a fresh 10X extract is smoked. Generally one pipe hit, then a lot can happen.

It was/is by Maztec Indians in Mexico who chew, snuff or smoke the leaves or extracts. It's usage....to put you in a trance.

Know I have tried LSD, shrooms, but this is truly different.

I have actually been able to go out of my body and see it below me. If you stare at an object after smoking, you will all understand what it does. It is legal and can be ordered on-line with no hassle. I believe www.maztecgarden.com has a good deal. 1 gram for $28. Anyways, I know this isn't terribly relevant but I thought I'd give it a pitch. The erowid site is very informative too.

                Fred
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 21st, 2003, 3:51pm
Ok sorry, I really should preview my post before posting it. I see I made a few "grammatical" and "spelling" errors.

Also, the website is www.mazatecgarden.com


                       -Fred
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by jonny on May 21st, 2003, 4:29pm
You might mean well Freddy but the folks here dont take kindly to any selling going on on this board unless the profits are going to OUCH.

People her dont like snakeoil sales men, not that I am saying you are one. Im just letting you know before someone takes you as a snake and blasts you.

................................jonny
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by paragate on May 21st, 2003, 6:48pm
I think I can shed some light on this.  Bear with me, I'm new to this site and this is my first post.  I'm a clusterhead, going on twenty years now, just getting to the point of trying alternatives to the FDA approves "treatments."  (Though I will note that over decades of regular psychedelic use I never once had a CH; they started during a "hiatus" from those things, and have been with me ever since.)

On Salvia:  It is not seratonergic, so probably won't cut cycles at all.  Last August it was finally, after years of intense research, discovered that Salvinorin A, the active ingredient in Salvia, has an affinity for the kappa opioid receptor.  Nobody knows yet how this works or why this makes it such a powerful entheogen, but it is clearly not seratonergic.  Indeed, that much has been known for years.

Thus, beyond the fact that it is not an indole psychedelic, it it simply not going to act as either an agonist or antagonist for the 5-HTP2 receptors, which is what it looks like works for LSD, psilocin and possibly other seratonergic psychedelics.

That said, it is possible that a proper dose of Salvinorin A could provide symptomatic relief.  This is, BTW, still a perfectly legal substance, though the DEA opines that it might come under the Analogue Act (the DEA's analysis is full of holes and misinformation).  I think, having not yet tried it myself, the trick would be to obtain a reliable, standardized smokeable form with a known level of Salvinorin A per mg of smoking material.  It comes on very fast (within 30 seconds), and only lasts a couple minutes at peak, but if by interacting with the k-opioid receptor it works as some kind of dissociative, it could provide symptomatic relief from an acute episode.

This is pure conjecture on my part, though I just went into a CH cycle and will be trying this today or tomorrow but only for relief of an acute episode.  I will be trying a seratonergic agent in a day or two to see if I can break the cycle.

I'll report back when I have some anecdotal data to provide.  Lastly, the sagewisdom site in the first post is not only the best place for the latest info on Salvia and Salvinorin A, but also what I consider to be one of the best sources for the substance.

I'm not going to drift but will be searching these boards to see what sorts of seratonergic agents people have tried, other than psilocin and LSD, that have worked.  Esp. interested in DPT and 5-MeO-DMT.

I'm so glad I stumbled onto this space.  Thank you all for being here.
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by Margi on May 21st, 2003, 6:57pm
Holy CRAP   :o  Now THERE's a first post for ya!  Awesome job!

Welcome to the family, Paragate.  We can really use someone like you around here.  I'm sure PinkSharkMark and Flash will be in contact with you soon - they are our resident gurus on this subject and both of them speak very intelligently (as do you) on the subject.

Sorry to hear you're back in cycle. You sound very knowledgeable about this, but that Salvia sounds so tricky for dosing.  And scary.  Thank you for explaining how it works (and probably won't work for clusters).

What "agent" are you going to try?  Keep us posted on your progess.  Please be careful with your experimenting.  

p.s.  i forgot to include TommyD in the guru list.  He definately belongs there, too.  Sorry Tommy.
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by Ueli on May 21st, 2003, 8:12pm
CH is not something that is in your "head".
Otherwise you could try to get to the 4th dimension, by using any old hallucinogen, flip some stuff over and return cured from CH.
The fact that psilocybin and LSD can bring prolonged relieve from CH even at sub-hallucinogenic doses indicates that the trip is a mere side effect, enjoyed by some and others would gladly do without it.

The 'aromatic organic' compounds are characterized by one or more benzene rings, 6 carbon atoms in a hexagonal pattern with 3 double bonds.
Serotonin, and all the compounds active for CH (ergot and it derivatives, the triptans, psilocybin/psilobin and LSD), all have an indole ring, with 4 C atoms and a N-H group.
It looks like the indole ring is essential for an effect on clusters.

From what I've seen from chrismo's link the active compound of salvia has 3 (linked) benzene rings, but no indole ring. Therefore, salvia is probably not useful against clusters.

PFNADs
Ueli
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 21st, 2003, 8:49pm
I need not defend my views on Salvia. It is not my intention to provide info and feedback, but just some commentary

In all honesty it just can't be good for a CH. I just indulged and I fell over and dropped my toothbrush.

I say no more about this because Imitrex injection has been my saving grace.

But......we all like euphoric and perhaps pyschadelic remedies, otherwise you may be lying.


                     - "really hypnoticFreddy"
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by jonny on May 21st, 2003, 8:51pm

on 05/21/03 at 18:48:25, paragate wrote:
I think I can shed some light on this.  Bear with me, I'm new to this site and this is my first post.  I'm a clusterhead, going on twenty years now, just getting to the point of trying alternatives to the FDA approves "treatments."  (Though I will note that over decades of regular psychedelic use I never once had a CH; they started during a "hiatus" from those things, and have been with me ever since.)

On Salvia:  It is not seratonergic, so probably won't cut cycles at all.  Last August it was finally, after years of intense research, discovered that Salvinorin A, the active ingredient in Salvia, has an affinity for the kappa opioid receptor.  Nobody knows yet how this works or why this makes it such a powerful entheogen, but it is clearly not seratonergic.  Indeed, that much has been known for years.

Thus, beyond the fact that it is not an indole psychedelic, it it simply not going to act as either an agonist or antagonist for the 5-HTP2 receptors, which is what it looks like works for LSD, psilocin and possibly other seratonergic psychedelics.

That said, it is possible that a proper dose of Salvinorin A could provide symptomatic relief.  This is, BTW, still a perfectly legal substance, though the DEA opines that it might come under the Analogue Act (the DEA's analysis is full of holes and misinformation).  I think, having not yet tried it myself, the trick would be to obtain a reliable, standardized smokeable form with a known level of Salvinorin A per mg of smoking material.  It comes on very fast (within 30 seconds), and only lasts a couple minutes at peak, but if by interacting with the k-opioid receptor it works as some kind of dissociative, it could provide symptomatic relief from an acute episode.

This is pure conjecture on my part, though I just went into a CH cycle and will be trying this today or tomorrow but only for relief of an acute episode.  I will be trying a seratonergic agent in a day or two to see if I can break the cycle.

I'll report back when I have some anecdotal data to provide.  Lastly, the sagewisdom site in the first post is not only the best place for the latest info on Salvia and Salvinorin A, but also what I consider to be one of the best sources for the substance.

I'm not going to drift but will be searching these boards to see what sorts of seratonergic agents people have tried, other than psilocin and LSD, that have worked.  Esp. interested in DPT and 5-MeO-DMT.

I'm so glad I stumbled onto this space.  Thank you all for being here.


Plese do keep us informed.

......................................jonny
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by chrismo on May 21st, 2003, 9:23pm
Holy Crap Paragate... I think I am getting a cluster headache from reading all the info you put in your first post! just kidding, thanks a lot for the reply. In fact its great to see so may replies from so many, out of just plain curiosity on my part!

Paragate - I'm anxious to see what happens with your experimenting.
Title: Re: Salvia and Shrooms
Post by paragate on May 22nd, 2003, 4:45pm
Thanks for the welcome.  I need to emend my post to clarify one thing -- when I said I haven't tried it (Salvia) yet, I meant to deal with a clusterfuck.  I've done it perhaps a hundred times over the past few years.

I agree that it's lack of an indole ring is yet another indication that it cannot stop or prevent a cycle.  But it's the affinity for the k-opioid receptor that has me intrigued about whether it can provide relief during an acute episode.  There was for a considerable time a lot of conjecture that Salvinorin A's psychedelic effect was due to it being a dissociative.  They work by basically shutting down much of your sensory inputs, including pain.  Ketamine is the best known of this class, and Leary made heavy use of it in the last months of his earthly trip, at least in part to deal with the pain in a different way than morphine and nitrous did.  The known dissociatives, however, are active at other receptor sites, so the jury is still out exactly how Salvinorin A works.  No less an authority than Shulgin admitted to me recently that he's utterly puzzled by this molecule.

Yet I know from experience that at the right dosage, you lose all sense of body with Salvinorin A.  That's why I'm speculating that it might help provide symptomatic relief that is somewhat more targeted than vasoconstrictors (which clearly work well, at least with me), or traditional pain killers, which unless you have access to injectable forms, won't do much to relieve anything until you've been rolling on the floor screaming for an hour or so.

That said, it certainly doesn't in my mind have any potential at all of getting to the root of the problem.  Moreover, inhaling vaporized Salvinorin A (or smoking Salvia leaves) is extremly short-acting.  The tinctures out there, which are taken sublingually, last longer -- around 30-60 minutes at peak.   Problem with them, at least for me, is they are alcohol based, and alcohol is for me a wicked cluster trigger when I'm in cycle.  Ott had success with using DMSO as the carrier for sublingual administration, and with DMSO you can get more of the good stuff into each ml.  But I'm not exactly keen to be squirting DMSO into my mouth.  (He also used acetone, which is the best solvent for Salvinorin A, but which also might tell you a bit about how hard core Ott could be.)

Anyway, 'nuff said.  I'm going to check out what else is here to be mined on the various boards.


Clusterheadaches.com Message Board » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.