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Title: most headaches are caused by nerve interference in Post by subluxationskill on Mar 13th, 2003, 12:08am Hello all, in your upper neck area is located the brainstem. it controls almost all of your internal function. Lots of headaches are a result of your top bone called the atlas being locked out of postion and interfering with your brainstem area. Go check out www.uppercervical.org. This may help end your quest for health. if you have anymore questions about this you can email me at subluxationskill@hotmail.com I practice this procedure and see miraculous things happen everyday. Good luck in health Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by tanner on Mar 13th, 2003, 12:41am gee drew, what might you do for a living? ever had a cluster? i'm gonna guess no. i am not trying to be nasty but you already got away with saying " subluxations" twice on this very real forum, made up of people with a very real (and definable) condition who are by and large very sick of people (especially wannabe docs) offering "AS SEEN ON TV REMEDIES" to a problem that they dont have a clue about and have no intention of looking into in a pure research environment. if you wish to prove me wrong why don't you join us at the upcomiming convention and offer some FREE treatment to substantiate your claim! i am sorry that i don't know you personally, but i have been bent and twisted in every which way and it has not a f##k##G thing to do with why we are here!!!!!! tim |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 13th, 2003, 12:55am Tim, I am sorry that you went to a chiropractor that did not help you. First of all I would like to know hwy you are so angry? How many medical doctors have you been to that did not help you? And how many people have I seen tonight who have postings about all the doctors they ahve tried which have not helped. I am mystified by your anomosity towards me and perhaps my profession. Their is more than one way to look at human function and disease and more than one way to try to correct health problems. Just because you have been raised in a medical society and that is the norm does not mean it is right or it is the only way to approach a problem. In fact i myself would say that the medical establishment has done a pretty poor job of being the gatekeepers of health in america. After all of the billions of dollars that have been used for so called scientific research can you please name a disease that medicine has cured???????? And I would love to speak with you more about the nature of health and yes I would like to meet any of you who suffer with cluster headaces in an attemp to help those that are suffering. Obviously you are misinformed about the upper cervical procedure. Before you convict me of being a quack I would like you to inform me about what it is I do. Since you are so sure that I am a secodn rate doctor and the procedure that i do for my lively hood is so bogus, dont you think you might want to first know what it is that I do. How can you even have a discussion or a debate about a subject when you only know one side? Please respond I would like to discuss this further. And by the way there are over 25o procedure sin chiropractic. Not all are created equal. Just as some medical doctors have operated on the wrong knee, or prescribed too much of a drug and killed a patinet so to are there incompetents in all professions. Dont throw the baby out wiht the bath water. Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by amber on Mar 13th, 2003, 2:57am from a ha'er point of view... Drew has brought up some interesting points, and while I may still seek further treatment, I have been going to a chiropractor for the last, oh...6 years or so? I have tried more than one. I have had migraines for 8 years and ch for about a year now. For me no luck. Perhaps others will. Drew, glad you have conviction about what you do, and for some it will be the cure, I do believe that! Just keep in mind, that your way is not THE way for all, much like everything else we here around here ;) Having said that, glad it's been brought up! Later |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by amber on Mar 13th, 2003, 2:59am Drew, is it possible that the cervicogenic headache community would be more greatly affected by chiropractic care than would cluster headache sufferers, and in a more positive way? Just thinking :) amber |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Bob P on Mar 13th, 2003, 9:18am Well, well. I need a little tension release today, and along came Drew. First of all doc, meegraines originate in the brainstem, clusters from the hypothalamus. Back to the books for you. Second: Cluster is not a cervicogenic headache, although cervicogenic headaches are sometimes mistaken as cluster. Cluster is a neuro-vascular headache. Sorry, nothing to do with bones or their alignment. Third: If your posts have lead a true cluster sufferer off on a quest for a bone alignment cure, and by doing that caused them to suffer longer (since there isn't a cervicogenic cure for clusters) then I don't think I like you very much. The point is, a headache is not a headache, is not a headache. They aren't all the same. You should learn something about clusters before you just do a web search for headache and profess your cure. You are probably doing more harm to clusterheads than good. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 13th, 2003, 10:43am Bob, I am glad that you are up on your research. And I am glad that you think that the brainstem is somehoe unrelated to the hypothalumus. First off Miraines are do to a vasoconstion of the vasculature(causes aura) and then a rapid vasdialation(causing the pounbding headache and other associated symptoms). Blood vasculature is controlled by the vasomotor nucleus in the brainstem. Second the hypothalamus and the thalamus have direct links with the vestibluar aparratus again in the brainstem. Before you start shooting your mouth off about anatomy, and neurology just remeber that scineces and anatomy are evolving. Medical scinece has made one blunder after another. Do you remeber that the casue of disease was do to the blood so blood letting was done. woops guess that wasnt a good idea. Now we suscribe to the germ theory to disease and genetics, that too will fall by the wayside. bob I have aquestion for you . Lets say that the hypothalamus is where the dysfunction is coming from. What is causing the dysfunction????? That is the question you want to answer for yourself. That is what produces a lasting change in the healht status. I honor your opinion but if you worship books and people who are educated you will never progress your thinking! AND ONE LAST THING TO ALL- when i talk about chiropractic i am talking about a specialty within the profession called IPPER CERVICAL CARE. This is a totally different procedure thatn the popping twistng and pulling that goes on in most offices out there. before you make comments about it educate yourslef about the care i am speaking of. www.uppercervical.org www.blairchiropracticsoc.org. And thirdly yes you are right. Upper cervical care is not A CURE ALL. No procedure in the healing fields is. With that said the reason peole get sick or go into dysfunction is that there is an interference in function. Some of that is nerve interference, some diet. others poor water, stress, and yes some genetic tendincies. However genetic s dont always predestine your healht state!! Good luck to all in your quest for health and healing Drrew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Ueli on Mar 13th, 2003, 12:14pm Mr. Subluxationskillwrote: Quote:
Have you never heard, by example, about antibiotics that cure many infection diseases and have added about 2 or 3 decades to our life span? Are you really a doctor or did you get your degree over the web from a banana republic? Above quote is a typical statement of the snake oil pedlars: Denying any success of school medicine and claiming their "natural" hanky panky is a cure-all for anything. For those interested, here is a bunch of links (http://www.chirobase.org/) to this subluxation scam. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Bob P on Mar 13th, 2003, 12:26pm Doc, I'm well aware that the hypo controls vasoconstriction / dilation. Mainly through hormonal control, 5HT, effecting the smooth muscle surrounding the vessels. I am also aware that the hypo is located in the mid base of the brain and not in the brain stem. I am also aware that many internal functions (body temperature, digestion, sex, fight/flight, etc.) are controlled by the hypo in the base of the brain, not the brain stem, although the hypo may cause glands/organs to send signals through the brain stem. What is causing the disfunction in the hypo? I wish I knew. The Italians are however mapping the clusterhead genome as we speak, so we should have the genetic part of the puzzle answered in a few years. Of course, since 80% of clusterheads are episodic, there is really no need for your treatment since their necks must fix themselves, hence the remission from the headaches after a few weeks. Here is a picture of hub's brain. I've marked the hypo. The last cervical joint is plainly visable also. I'm open to how a misalignment of that joint makes my hypo tell the pituitary or pons and other glands to secrete hormones or not, to constrict or dialate blood vessels, to give me an aura (which by the way clusterheads don't get, but of course you knew that, that's why you mentioned it, duh) which causes the migraines that clusterheads don't get. So before you start shooting your mouth off about how to cure our headaches, learn what we suffer from. But of course, since we don't get migraines, why the heck would we care? Aw heck, here's the pic: http://www.pahlow.net/temp/hypo.jpg |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Not4Hire on Mar 13th, 2003, 2:34pm Hey BobP: just wondering if you used "Occam's Razor" * to slice ole hub's skull.... ;D *[Top] 1.6: What is Occam's Razor? Ockham's Razor ("Occam" is a Latinised variant) is the principle proposed by William of Ockham in the fifteenth century that "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate", which translates as "entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily". Various other rephrasings have been incorrectly attributed to him. In more modern terms, if you have two theories which both explain the observed facts then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along. See W.M. Thorburn, "The Myth of Occam's Razor," Mind 27:345-353 (1918 ) for a detailed study of what Ockham actually wrote and what others wrote after him. The reason behind the razor is that for any given set of facts there are an infinite number of theories that could explain them. For instance, if you have a graph with four points in a line then the simplest theory that explains them is a linear relationship, but you can draw an infinite number of different curves that all pass through the four points. There is no evidence that the straight line is the right one, but it is the simplest possible solution. So you might as well use it until someone comes along with a point off the straight line. Also, if you have a few thousand points on the line and someone suggests that there is a point that is off the line, it's a pretty fair bet that they are wrong. The following argument against Occam's Razor is sometime proposed: This simple hypothesis was shown to be false; the truth was more complicated. So Occam's Razor doesn't work. This is a strawman argument. The Razor doesn't tell us anything about the truth or otherwise of a hypothesis, but rather it tells us which one to test first. The simpler the hypothesis, the easier it is to shoot down. A related rule, which can be used to slice open conspiracy theories, is Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity". This definition comes from "The Jargon File" (edited by Eric Raymond), but one poster attributes it to Robert Heinlein, in a 1941 story called "Logic of Empire". ...there's other good stuff on this page: http://home.xnet.com/~blatura/skeptic.shtml#contents |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Bob P on Mar 13th, 2003, 4:05pm Hey Sublux, I've reread your post above a couple of times and each time it amazes me more. Quote:
First of all, somehoe is that broad over on 4th street who will grease your bearings for $20. What's she got to do with the hypo? Quote:
Wrong again. Miraines are them soldiers from Georgia who gonna kick Sadam's ass. The only vasoconstricing they gonna be doin' is when Sadam's fanny be puckerin' up. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Actually, the more I read through your posts, the more I just have to shake my head, being careful not to tweak my neck and cause a cluster of course. It's been fun doc but I realize now that I shouldn't have wasted my time. Please be sure to pass along any successful results you have in treating clusters with subliminal luxation. (shit, I'm gonna feel like a real idiot if time proves the good doc correct!) |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by BobG on Mar 13th, 2003, 10:03pm Thank you subluxationskill for starting this string. It was very entertaining and brought a big grin to my mug. Thanks, I needed that. Of course I think you're a snake oil peddler and one day will probably hurt someone, but hey, that's what mal-practice insurance is for. Right? And about the learning from the uneducated……….I learned a lot. I learned you haven’t found the spell check button yet. Ueli, right on as always. Bob P, you were magnificent, in truly great form tonight. Hub, does that hurt when Bob does that to your head? Thanks for the laughs. I can go to Vegas a happy man. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by terrylch on Mar 13th, 2003, 10:52pm Drew, I told you they didn't want to hear anything that simple. The board regulars try to chase off anyone that doesn't think like them. I do believe there are more people out there that have been helped by your method. It is just that not very many of them are willing to say so because of all of the bull shit they receive afterwards. Don't give up. If you can help just a few, you have helped more than those that badmouth anything they don't agree with. Good luck and hang in there. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Ted on Mar 13th, 2003, 11:12pm on 03/13/03 at 22:52:24, terrylch wrote:
Me too. I believe many people out there have been helped by a chiropractor. But not for their cluster headaches. Don't believe us? Read Doug's posts on the subect, our resident clusterhead and chiropractor. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 13th, 2003, 11:23pm Bob Even though we dont see eye to eye you actually made me laugh with your posts and responses to my spelling. I really dont have time to carry on an argument with you that realy accomplishes nothing because you are unwilling to look outside your limited way of thinking. However I would love to take care of as many of you that suffer with cluster headaches as possible in an attempt to change the encrusted medical thinking that pervades many individuals. It is sad that you reject the thought of anything outside of medicine as worthy. In fact I believe you will suffer with your cluster headaces for the rest of your life with your current way of thinking. Hopefully inspite of you not becasue of you the intelligence within your own body will figure out how to adapt out of the problem itself. Afterall no doctor heals anything all he does is facilitate. Egos are what get in the way of progress. I in fact do wish you luck in your quest for health. Maybe someday you will find your way into an upper cervical practice like the medical doctor found his way in my office a few weeks ago. His eyes were opened to a new world. You see we dont see the world as it is we see it as we are. Ponder that one for a moment. Godbless Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Ted on Mar 13th, 2003, 11:36pm on 03/13/03 at 23:23:53, subluxationskill wrote:
That's terrific, doc. And wanting to do it for such noble reasons makes me think you'll be doing this for free, right? After all, your motives ARE "to change the encrusted medical thinking that pervades many individuals." and NOT to try and make lots of money off the hopes of people in incredible pain and who may be vulnerable to quacks. RIGHT? |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:05am Ted First i want to ask you this. Do you work for free?>???? Yes I got into upper cervical care becasue it changed my life. I suffered with debilitating symptoms; fatigue, sub occipital headaches, extreme fatigue, night sweats, low back and neck pain, dizziness, nausea, and more. Anyway I went through at least 10 medical doctors was unsatisfied with their options. luckily i ended up in an upper cervical office and my life has never been the same since. This is why I got into CHIROPRACTIC. With this said I would love to prove to you the efficacy of the procedure and would be glad to offer you free care if no results are obtained. If you get results and are free of you rpoblems I would like to know what it is worth to you. Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by BobG on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:06am subluxationskill...... Don't know what Bob you were just talking to so I'll take it for granted it was the other one. You say "inspite of you not becasue of you the intelligence within your own body will figure out how to adapt out of the problem itself" I say "I hope the hell my body figures it out real soon. It's been 30 years now and I'm tired of waiting. But, until my body figures it out I'll contiue to see my doctor." And thank you for the offer to help but you are NOT going to touch my brainstem. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:11am Bob I didnt expect you to take me up on the offer. Again i love people who are unwilling to think and look outside of the box. How would i thouch your brainstem. i am just curious. what is it that you think I do? drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Ted on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:13am on 03/14/03 at 00:05:15, subluxationskill wrote:
Nope, Subluxations-kill. But I out snakeoil salesman at no cost. on 03/14/03 at 00:05:15, subluxationskill wrote:
Ahhhhhh. Always a good line to use to start off the closing in sales negotiations. Let them make the first offer so you don't offer it at a lower rate then they'd offer. "Gee, honey. Maybe we should buy that timeshare." |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:25am Ted I would like for you to tell me what upper cervical is. Please tell me. You are labeling something of which you know nothing. Please inform me about what it is I do. And after you do then we can have a discussion. Please elaborate. You live on one side of the street. Ever walked across the street to see what it is like. You are like the fool that hates balck peole because you have been taught to think that way. drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by BobG on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:47am Let's take some of your comments one at a time. i love people who are unwilling to think Unfortunately in your trolling the net for pain victims you came across CH.com and thought you had the perfect victims. Wrong! You found very intelligent people who do think. How would i thouch your brainstem. You wouldn't. If you even tried you'd be in very serious pain for a long, long time. what is it that you think I do? I think you surf the internet looking for suckers to sell your bullshit. I practice this procedure and see miraculous things happen everyday Are you a TV preacher? An evangelist? or just a scam artist? |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Ted on Mar 14th, 2003, 12:50am OK. The upper cervical is the vertebrae residing in the neck. What it is you do is troll around websites devoted to medical conditions and try and con people out of their money. And since I don't know what a balck peole is, how can I hate it? Or are you offering to work on people's peeholes? You're not touching my brainstem or my peehole. Goodnight, Subluxations-kill. I have an HONEST job to go to in the morning. Nice laughing at you tonight. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by BobG on Mar 14th, 2003, 1:04am Good night sublux. Good night Ted. Good night all. It's been fun. Let's do it again soon. ::) I'm off work soon and I'm going to Vegas. :D |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Bob P on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:41am For anyone who still thinks this guy is on the up, here are a couple more things the web site says it helps: "For example, a man who was having severe neck pain woke up one morning realizing that after a few weeks of Upper Cervical care, his allergies were no longer bothering him. Or the woman who was having severe back pain and got under Upper Cervical care, noticed that her diabetes was getting under control. Or another woman who underwent this type of healthcare for headaches and neck pain, and noticed after several weeks that her life-long inability to eliminate well was gone. She was having normal bowel movements for the first time in her life. " Now you gotta wonder, if these guys can control diabetes or cerebral palsey, why haven't you heard of them before? You'd think that kind of stuff would be headline news. It hasn't helped Drew though. Unlike the lady above, he is still full of shit. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:41am bob, I am glad you are so well informed and versed in upper cervical philosophy. Unfortunatley the only way certain types of procedures get out to the public is through information forums such as this or by word of mouth. Why ? The pharmaceutical octopus has brainwashed our public into believing that drugs are their only alternative. Things are changing though. The public is starting to wake up. They are realizing that yes there are many things that the medical people are wonderful at and thank god for them. However they do not have all the answers. in fact when it comes to chronic degenerative problems they have not much to offer than a bunch of drugs that either mask symptoms or try to balnace body chemistry into some norm they think that individual should be in. ANd by the way trying to fit individuals into some norm they think they should be in is the third leading cause of seath in the united states! So while you continue to bash anything non-medical I will continue to place posts on forums for those who are looking for answers. And by the way if you and ueli new anything about upper cervical care you would know that the goal of the care is not to treat symptoms(which is a fools game) but rather its goal is to monitor neurologic function via infra red thermography to determine if a sick neurologic pattern has returned or not after a correction. Nothing to do with sympotoms. You see you are caught in the world of effects. And treating them. Good luck Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 14th, 2003, 9:57am Bob, I would love for you to visit our office and talk with the hundreds of patients that are seen each week. I wouldlike for you to talk to them yourself get first hand feedback about the various things that can be affected by brainstem pressure due to a misaligned atlas. Yes that is correct all of those things happen on a quite regular basis. If you would step out of your tunnel visioned view of the world and the human body maybe you would actually learn something that may in fact change your life. I am glad that this has at least incited you to take a look aat the site. I have had patients just like you. I have had patinets come in my office sit in my consultation room and tell me that they think what i do is a bunch of bullshit righ to my face. But you know what that doesnt offend me. I realize that that individual has come to me because everything else out there including modern medicine has failed them. They are looking for an answer. And that individual was suffering from chronic vertigo and visited the best neurologist at ucla and cedars. He was sent home and told to live with it becasue there was nothing they could do after a trial and error of six different meds. Well after one atlas correction he went from hating me to wondering how in the hell what i did got him better. Why dont the medical people do this and why dont they know about this? Well it is a matter of economics. DId you know htat the pharmaceuticals tried to turm the supplement industry into a prescription drug? Gee I wonder why they tried that. Anyway keep thinking limited and you are going to get limited results in your life. I bet you are miserable stuck in the same old rut doing the same old things not only in your approach to health but in life. I hope for your own sake your eyes are opened some day. And again for your own sake you find an answer. I mean that whether it is upper cervical or not. I really hope you find an answer whether it is in the alternative community or not. Does not matter. I only sincerely hope you get better. I also wish tha tyou had some understanding abut the upper cervical approach and how it affescts many different conditioins. If you think that is ridiculous then I will tell you I have had a patinet wihtin the last twom onths that regained a deaf ear after 17 years of deafness. Does that mean that the upper cervical procedure is a cure all? No I never said that however all sorts of conditions are affected by interference at the brainstem level. Anyway I got to get to work so I can see the 40-50 people a day I see who pay cash out of pocket no insurance for something that does not work! Have a great wonderful miraculous day. In health drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Margi on Mar 14th, 2003, 11:05am Dear Dr. Sublaxative... Obviously, Bob has tired of you now. Time for the second string to step in. *newsflash* Chiropractic adjustments do NOT help cluster headaches. Our community has repeatedly sought relief from your community to NO avail. There are thousands of sufferers here and I'd say over half have journeyed the chiropractic route. So why do they keep coming back here, still without relief? BECAUSE CHIROPRACTIC ADJUSTMENTS HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE FACT THAT CLUSTERHEADS ARE BORN WITH AN ENLARGED AND CONFUSED HYPOTHALMUS GLAND, that's why. However, if we suddenly become dizzy or lose our hearing, we'll call you. Oh, and one final thing? I sure hope you practice your craft with a little more attention to detail than that which you give your typing/proofreading skills. Oooops, there IS one more point. I've taken a lot of sales courses and the psychology involved in same. I've always been taught that once a customer has said "no, thanks" three times, you're probably not going to make the sale. I think we're well beyond three times now, honey. :-* |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by amber on Mar 14th, 2003, 2:44pm LOL Margi, you're a riot! What I don't understand is why this guy keeps going and going...somebody take his energy bunny batteries out! Obviously, the people who are interested in researching the topic will, and the people who aren't won't. Sommmmmmmebody's a drama queen! LOL ;) |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by terrylch on Mar 15th, 2003, 9:15am To all, I realize you don't want to hear my opinion but I am going to say it anyway. I am not a doctor or chiropractor. Nor do I work for the pharmacutical companies (it seems like a lot of you folk do) I have a very low opinion of doctors. Most of them don't know anything. It is pretty obvious that CH is not caused by a virus or a germ. Therefore the drugs are never going to cure them. All they will do is (maybe) make the pain go away for a while. Personally, I have never taken any drug that helped in any way. Even the pain killers have no effect. I will have to admit that I haven't taken most of the drugs being discussed on this board. It does seem like all CH sufferers have their headaches on one side of the head or the other. In reading the posts, it appears many of the CH sufferers also have a pain in their neck at the same time. I know nothing about brain stems or nerves. I do believe that there are millions of nerves going to the head from all parts of the body. These nerves go up through the spinal cord to the head. It appears (from the medical pictures) thousands of these nerves exit the spinal cord in the neck region on each side of the neck (from the top of the shoulder all the way to the head). These nerves travel up the neck to the same areas that are painful during a CH attack. Is it not feasable that some or many of these nerves might be causing the headaches. Whether they are being pinched or whatever. Isn't it just possible, a neck manipulation of some sort or other, might correct the problem at least temporarily. Even if it isn't nerves, it must be something that just affects one side of the head. There are not many things that do this. Until recently, I thought they were caused by a blood vessel. It appears there are no large blood vessels in the back of the neck. Although it appears there is a (separate) major blood vessel going to each side of the head, just as there are (separate) groups of nerves going to each side of the head. I do not know the reason, but during a CH I can feel my pulse at the spot on the back of my neck that I put the pressure. This was the main reason I used to think there was a major blood vein in the area. Even if you don't like chiropractors or haven't been helped by one, it seems you should be open to the fact the headaches could be originating in the neck region. I do not know the answers, but I would like to hear all of the ideas. I can (try to) figure out for myself what parts of it work or not. Myself, I am a believer in the neck being the origination of the CH's. I would like to hear all that anyone has to say about this area. I was told by one of the regulars that I didn't have CH. I wish I didn't but I haven't the choice. I have learned to control the headaches using a manipulation of my neck. You don't have to believe this, but you also should let everyone decide for themselves if it could be possible. Good luck to all of the open minded people here and to those in their shell also. Terry PS. I would spell check this but I don't see a button that would do it. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 15th, 2003, 10:37am Terry, I am glad that there is at least one sensible person on here. I honor your open mindedness and I also honor your common sense. Your common sense has led you to some important findings. And Terry i could give a damn if you used spell check as long as i have understood your points. To me what is said si what is important not whether or not you have spelled it correctly or not. For those of us who have lives and things to do toher thatn sit on a message board all day we dont have time to go and proof all that is wriiten. Anyway Terry i think you have some to some conclusion that should have you investigate upper cervical care. It is interesting that ch tends to happen on one side of the head. it is also interesting that it is common to be behind one eyeball in most cases. We find that the atlas vertebrae, when mislaigned, has either moved right or left(simplistic terms). As a result the foramenal opening between the skull and the atlas ring have been encroached by the degree of misalingemnt. When this occurs one side of the brainstem is irritated and the other is not. This side is responsible for controlling one side of the body. It is interesting in cases other thatn cluster headaches that most musculoskeletal(not all) symptoms are more severe on one side of the body thatn the other for this reason. When I am talking ,terry, of upper cervical care I am not really talking about chiropractic as a whole. It is a sub sector within the profession. And even though I do not like to admit I myself would have to agree with bob and ueli and some of the other people on here who want to x out everything other thatn conventional mainstream allopathic care , that I am not a big fan of regular chriopractic "rack em crack em care. Do they get results in lots of cases? yes. However with that said I would not send anyone I love or know to a regular typwe chiropractor. Number one becasue they do not have a sytem that detecs neurologic involvement they are using palpatory findings and using an x ray analysis system that is based on anatomic symmetry. we are all built different. looking at an xray as previously stated on here by someone can lead to a lot of different opinions. Not a scientifically reliable way to ascertain vertebrael movemnet. At least conventional chiropractic x-rays. The radiographic procedure in the upper cervical work is quite different. In all human joints the corresponding joint surfaces are mirror images of one another. becasue of this fact if you look at individual joint surfaces you can see whether or not the lateral margins are even or misalgned. a picture is taken of the base of the skull. this allows one to view the occipital condyles for the indiviual. each person osteologically is unique. each person has unique joint formations. even from right and left sided structures on the same individual can be built compoletley differently. So by viewing these joints you can come up with what is callled a longitudinal axis of the joint. Next the patient is in the sitting position and is turned the maount of degrees of that long axis of the condyle. this is done o n both sides. anyway by viewing each individual articulation one can come of with a magnitude and and direction of misalignemnet. this is not one hundred percent reproducible. however it has been tested for interexaminer reliability and is at 93 percent. pretty reliable when you ar talking about the human body. Next sever al infra red heat scans are recorded of the individuals neck from c-7 to occiput. when a person has neurologic involvement in the upper neck region they will show what we call a heat pattern. this is a thermal image of the upper neck that remains persistent and consistent. In other words the pattern of the thermal scan does not change regardles of time of day or if it is taken every day. this establishes what the individual looks like when they are misalgned and malfunctioning. after this has been done a specific correction is made on the atlas vertebrae with information gleaned form the x-ray. after the correction another thermal image is taken to see if it has changed . if the thermal image has changed form the original pattern then the job has been done. each visit is use dto determine if the patient has reverted back to their sick neurologic pattern or mot. If they have another correction is made if they have not nothing is done. the goal is to stay free of the sick neurologic pattern so the body can restore function to all parts of the body. Anyway got to get to work terry. have a great miraclulous day. In health drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Bob P on Mar 15th, 2003, 10:45am Here's my take: First, here is a picture of the trigeminal nerve http://www.pahlow.net/temp/trigeminal_nerve.gif You can see the 3 branches. One to the lower jaw, one above the teeth and one in the eye/forehead area. This is the nerve that is sending the pain signals during a cluster. This nerve does not pass through the spinal column. It goes from the face directly to the brain. No bones out of alignment there. Secondly, if you read Goadsby's article in the "Hypothalamus" section of the OUCH Library you find that they have identified a small group of nerves on the back of one side (same side as the headaches) of the hypo. This area is activated during a cluster attack. This group of neurons is also NOT found in people without clusters. Now, since clusterheads have this and non-clusterheads don't, and because it is activated during a cluster, it sure leads me to believe it plays a big part in clsuters. I could certainly accept that the pain of clusters causes muscles to tighten in response to the pain. It also causes me to cock my head to one side during an attack. I can see how this could cause a pain in the neck. Because of the scientific info above, I think it's more of a result than a cause. There's a lot more to clusters than the 2 things I referenced above. Release of substance P which makes us more sensitive to the pain. Changes in serotonin levels which control vaso-constriction/dialation. Flat line levels of melatonin (which is metabolised from serotonin) saying that something in the body clock (hypothalamus) is not working correctly. Everything from the scientific community says it's all in our heads. One more comment: Quote:
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by jonny on Mar 15th, 2003, 1:59pm CHRIST!!!! Can yoose guys keep it to two paragraphs? I aint reading all that. Someone needs an ennama, just not sure who seeing that I aint reading all that. Let me know who wins, I'll be upstairs ;D ......................................jonny |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by dizzyd on Mar 15th, 2003, 6:21pm Bob P. Your last posting was EXACTLY what I have also thought clusters to be from my experiences and education from docs/treatment/literture/readings, etc. I believe you hit the nail on the head!! (22 years suffering with chronic clusters) Sometimes though people can convince themselves of anything and if it helps them to have chiro manipulation or they are desparate enough to try then I say give it go. Haven't we all tried almost anything to resolve the pain?? I understand that the purpses of many here are to thwart unsuspecting and/or innocent newcomers to this but you have to let people make thier own decisions with thier treatment, who knows.........each person is so so unique and each respond differently to each treatment and medicine, look at all the examples in this website. Me, I stay clear from quacky methods, I am waiting for a real cure from real medicine and real research, the rest is just a waste of time and money in my opinion. Until then I have a routine of Sansert and oxygen that controls my clusters most of the time. Those moments of uncontrol.....well I suffer it out, like most here, although in my younger days I did try most of the unconvential methods posted and then some. I admire your stance, your educated and informed opinions and appreciate all your imput. To Drew, please do not take advantage of any innocents, because if you are not a cluster sufferer you really do not understand disease, the passion or pain these people live with every single day!! DizzyD |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 15th, 2003, 7:40pm Bob, i respect your thirst for scientific knowledge. I also think we actual may be getting somewhere here. Yes you are correct your diagram shows that the trigeminal nerve does not exit out of the neck area. Also the trigeminal nucleus is located in the pons which is inside the skull. however recent neurologic findings are showing that the trigeminal, olfactory, vestibulocochelear, and opthalmic nerve tracts actually run down intot the area of the decusation at the level of the axis vertebrae and then out to the senses. Your argument is what many people have used against the inception of chiropractic and it is valid if that were the truth. The fact of the matter is that inspite of what current anatomical and physiologic understanding is at this time it is constantly evolving. when something happens clinically that does not match up to current scientific evidence it does not necesarily mean the clinical finding is incorrect. Back to the inception of chiropractic. In 1895 d.d. palmer met a you ng man who was deaf. After questioning him for a while he found out that he went deaf after he felt something pop in his neck while lifting something. D.D. reasoned that the pop in the neck was associated with the deafness. He layed him down on the floor and made a crude manipulation in the neck and his hearing came back. D.D. thought he had found a cure for hearing and put an add in the paper. he attracted 220 people who were deaf. made corrections on all of them and not one got their hearing back. However some noticed changes in their headaches some changes in their digestion some nothing at all. He felt he was on to something and out of it grew chiropractic. Now back to the deafness. The medcial community ues to bash chiropractic saying that the founding of chiropractic was based on a sham becasue the nerves that control hearing are inside the skull just like your example of the trigeminal. Well as I stated earlier they are finding that the upper cranial nerve system has nucleuses in the pons and midbrain however they passs down into the brainstem and then out to the auditory senses. So a misaligned atlas vertebrae could interfere with normal nerve supply to the sense. In fact I personally have had two patients with complete hearing loss one for 17 years restored after and adjustment of the atlas. if you are interested in contacting this person I would be more thatn happy to get you in contact with this individual. Again I am not saying that all deafness is a result of a misaligned atlas on ly that a misalgned atlas can be the casue of many problems in all parts of the body. Again I did not say it is a cure all. My point here is that all the scientific knowledge available which has been dicovered by man is great . However all scientific theories and so called facts are constantly changing and being modified as new discoveries are found. To hang your hat on current scientific evidence is foolish especailly when there is evidence to the contrary. Bob I think you are an intelligent man. I think you are a seeker. I also am glad that some medical drugs have helped ease your pain. I am also gald that instead of throwing stones at each other we may actually be dailoging to understand each others point of view a little beteter. Regardless fo whether you think what i do is bs or not my sole intention was to get on here to help. I dont like peole to suffer. i believe in what i do. I have had the opportunity to see peoples lives cvhange as a result of an upper cervical correction when all else failed. PErhaps what you are so strongly against may be an avenue of investigation that may prove to be a life saver. Or maybe not. Take care In health Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by WendyHowe on Mar 15th, 2003, 7:58pm Hear Hear Jonny Enough to bring on a headache reading this. I may have missed something due to all the weird words Drew, but have you actually cured someone with a genuine Cluster diagnosis? Or even aborted a cluster headache? Do let us know if you have or do and you may get a better welcome. Wendy P.S. Actually I am glad this post happened as I have learned loads about Ch that I never knew from the CH members posts. Thank you all, fascinating stuff. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by brewcrew on Mar 15th, 2003, 8:27pm Drew, Paragraphs are our friends. Learn how to use them or you will turn off 80% of anybody who looks at your ramblings. Lastly, due to the fact that you spell and write like you have no more than an 8th grade education, you have lost all credibility with me. Real doctors simply do NOT come across like you do. They all must have a bachelor's degree BEFORE they go on to medical school or chiropractic school. Buh bye. Bill |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Karla on Mar 15th, 2003, 9:25pm Just to make sure it is clear that I have clusters I have been diagnosed as such by 4 neuros and 3 gps. I have seen 3 different chiropractors all proclaiming to give me there subcranial what ever it is called headache speciality that works wonders for everyone else and has wonderful benefits. I have walked away from all 3 chiropractors after months of therapy feeling nothing but a waste of time. My headaches did NOT reduce in number. My headaches did NOT reduce in severity. The pain was just the same as before I wasted my time and money. I also saw a couple of physical therapists and ruled out that the headaches were not in the neck area, did not start in the neck area, did not end in the neck area and had nothing to do with my neck or posture, or the way I sit, stand walk or move or sleep. DUH clusters just happen. I spent years on this merry go round looking into the neck avenue and it did nothing for me. I tell you your intentions may be or may not be pure but you are definetly wasting peoples time! |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Jarvis on Mar 16th, 2003, 1:11am I'm still reading and so are a couple hundred others. Bob - Nice work youve done with the research. Drew I admire your stamina. If you are going to continue start a new thread for gods sake this ones getting too long and my tandy computer is too slow in loading. |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by jonny on Mar 16th, 2003, 11:53am on 03/15/03 at 20:27:22, brewcrew wrote:
LMMFAO, Bill !!!!! ;D .........................jonny :D |
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Title: will it take away a pain in the ass? Post by rumplestiltskin on Mar 16th, 2003, 12:18pm Terrylch wrote Quote:
Yes folks... please STOP BADMOUTHING CHIROS...let's bash the Catlickers instead....starting with the obvious vast knowledge of comparative religion displayed herein. good grief...the end is near. 666 |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by brewcrew on Mar 16th, 2003, 10:07pm jonny - Heh, heh, heh. Me too. Rumplestiltskin - Chiropractic, like any other profession, has its share of both good (dare I say even great) practitioners as well as charletons. The ones that claim to be able to cure just about anything fall into the latter category. When my back hurts and I feel like a pretzel, I go see my chiro. She does wonders for accumulated stress and bad posture. She can't touch my clusters, although she's tried. I told her straight up that the three-times-a-week-for-four-weeks shot at my headaches did nothing but leave a hole in my wallet. But I also told her that I didn't hold it against her, and that she does wonders for my back, neck and shoulders. If your electricity goes out, you don't call a plumber. Bill |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 26th, 2003, 7:57pm Brew, You have misrepresented the claims made by the upper cerviczl profession. Showm one place in my posts or on an upper cervical website where it says that upper cervical cures everything. Anyone who says that a procedure or pill cures everything is insane. Upper cervical has been know to help many different codnitons. I myself or any of the websites posted on this site have ever claimed to cure any condition. The aim of upper cervical chiropractic is to remove neurologic interference in the upper neck region thus allowing the body to heal and repair on the inside. If a condition is not cause or partially caused by interference int he upper neck region then it obviously would be of no benefit. With that said i have seen all sorts of conditions respond to this care. Therefore my conclusion would be that the upper neck region in many cases is contributing to many health conditions. You see in order to understand upper cervical you cannot be thinking philosphically medically. they are two different syustems. in fact they are antipodal. This does not negate medicine and it does not prove upper cervical. Both systems are needed to help the healthy and ill. Regards drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Frank on Mar 26th, 2003, 9:39pm One of the things that I find interesting about Internet message boards... is that there will be a few who will appear out of nowhere in a support group message board. They do not suffer from the disease or condition. They are not a supporter of someone who does. They toot all kinds of "remedies" and "cures" that we have never heard of before (an a few that we know to be just plain bullshit). They subject themselves to being told over and over to leave, get the fuck out of here, don't let the door hit ya in the ass, you're not welcome here, scram, beat it, we hate trolls, etc... yet they keep coming back. Why are those people so fucking stupid? |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by subluxationskill on Mar 26th, 2003, 11:35pm Frank, Believe it or not there are some people out there that will listen to all the bullshit that i talk about. In fact there are about 100 people a week that come into my office to see this quack. I am not sure why there is a whole medical field out there that some people think to have all the answers. So while you try and figure out why I am so hard headed and persistent I will continue to spread a message to those who would not otherwise hear it. Have a wonderful fabulous night. Best regards Drew |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Frank on Mar 26th, 2003, 11:42pm Arrrrhh! And they still come back! ??? |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Ted on Mar 26th, 2003, 11:51pm So Drool, what you're really saying is you want our money? Or you have been struck with an undescribable urge to help clusterheads that you know nothing about the pain or the condition? |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by michaelc on Mar 27th, 2003, 12:17am Drew, If you took half the time you spend on this freaking message board AND walked around your fucking town with a Big Neon Sign that says "ask me about my Subluxation SKILZ" then you'd have enough suckers/patinets on the dole that you wouldnt have to bother leeching off the Clusterheads on the board. I'm sure we ALL have something better to do |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Flash on Mar 27th, 2003, 1:06pm Aahhh - the cult of Chiropractic... I had a serious neck injury a few months back. Didn't know the difference between a chiropractor and an osteopath. Went to a chiropractor who basically set about making me a patient for life, 1 visit a week for 12 weeks then once a month thereafter for ever more. Osteopath cured me in 2 visits. The main difference being that the osteopath took the time to relax and heat up the surrounding muscle before making adjustments to free the trapped nerve (in this case the nerve that runs down my left arm). In my opinion chiropractors need to stick to back and neck injuries and drop this cure all stuff. If I go blind it will be due to masterbation not upper neck missalignment (unless that's a side effect of masterbation also). Oh - almost forgot... manual upper neck adjustments actually carry a degree of risk (as does everything in life). My chiropractor neglected to mention that to me. That risk might be worth taking in order to cure a back of neck injury, but personally I wouldn't risk undergoing one to cure CH, cancer, MS etc... Flash |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Margi on Mar 27th, 2003, 1:26pm Flash...you're not going blind. You're just fogging up your goggles, honey. It will clear in time. p.s. you didn't honestly think I was going to let this go, did you? ;) |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Flash on Mar 27th, 2003, 5:13pm Margi - I sure wish you were here to pull my chain. I swear I'd stop doing shrooms for the sex cure any day. Flash |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Margi on Mar 27th, 2003, 5:38pm LOL point for Flash. Margi shutting up now. p.s. how come we've never seen your pic on Bob's board. I think it's high time, don't you? 8)<--Flash's goggles |
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Title: Re: most headaches are caused by nerve interferenc Post by Frank on Mar 27th, 2003, 10:02pm Helpful tip: Don't feed the trolls. With no food, they eventually go away. |
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