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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2003 >> serotonin
        
(Message started by: lsmith on Nov 24^th, 2002, 8:14am)

Title: serotonin
Post by lsmith on Nov 24^th, 2002, 8:14am

I have never posted anything on the bulletin board, but I wanted to share some ideas that have worked for me. Before I share my ideas I want to make sure that you understand that I am not telling you to use these ideas. Please do some research of your own, check with your physician, and then decide what you want to do.

I have suffered from cluster headaches for over 40 years. I have taken my share of medications. Some have worked, some have not. Others I have just flatly refused to try due to possible side effects.

The one drug that has consistently worked for me is imitrex. I am thankful for DJ’s tip about extending the imitrex. It really worked for me. I found that I could stop my headaches without using the entire amount in the self injection syringe. I now have vials and individual syringes( insulin syringes work well ) so that I can use just the amount that I need.

I am also thankful to Mike’s wife Margi for sharing the information about the water. That too has helped.

Through the years I have researched cluster headaches without seeming to grasp anything that really could help me answer “why”. About a year and a half ago I did some more research and put a plan in action to see if I could prevent the cluster headaches from starting. I usually cycle about once a year. The cycle usually lasts 4-6 weeks. ( AGONY AND NO LIFE OF MY OWN )

I put the following things in place after reading that people who suffer from cluster headaches need to stay in a routine pattern as much as possible:
1. get plenty of sleep 7-8 hours a night
2. exercise regularly
3. eat balanced meals throughout the day including healthful snacks
4. don’t skip meals
5. eat plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables, and eat adequate amounts of protein
6. take a good multivitamin with minerals daily
7. take vitamin C daily
8. take 500 mg of magnesium daily
9. drink plenty of fluids especially water throughout the day and evening
10. avoid excessive heat and cold
11. wear a hat in the winter to keep your head warm and to prevent losing body heat
12. avoid foods that are known to trigger headaches such as chocolate, caffeine, alcohol, aged cheese, sardines, shellfish, nitrites, yeast
13. avoid eating a lot of salt
14. learn how to handle stressful situations
15. find time for some fun and recreation
16. no afternoon nap ( I have had 2 incidents when this has triggered my headaches )
17. don’t diet-dieting can deplete serotonin
18. eat a light carbohydrate snack before going to bed, wait at least 2-3
hours after dinner.
19. get some sunshine during the day especially in the winter

I started this plan about a month before I thought my cycle would start last year. The cycle never started. I did get 2 episodes of a dull cluster headache, but neither developed into a full blown headache.

This year I was not paying attention to the time of the year and what I was eating and doing and the clusters are back. They are waking me up between 3:30am and 4:00am. I got back on my plan from last year.

This time along with my plan from last year, I tried something else. I had read 2 books on serotonin last year and applied a tactic which hopefully has changed my life. At least so far. It could be just a fluke or I my have found something that works, at least for me.

The books that I read were, THE SEROTONIN SOLUTION, by Judith J. Wurtman, Ph.D and SECRETS OF SEROTONIN by Carol Hart.

Since imitrex works for me and imitrex increases serotonin at some receptor sites, I tried a technique that Judith Wurtman talks about in her book on how to increase serotonin levels. She is talking about using this method to curb stress related eating, but I thought, let’s try it and see what happens.

When I woke up and felt that too familiar sensation in my head, I went to the kitchen, grabbed the cold water and began drinking. I downed one large glass of ice cold water. Then I ate a fat free snack (cookies) that had about 200 calories and 44 grams of carbohydrates. Then I drank 2 more glasses of cold water. “The carbohydrate food is then digested, insulin is released, and the rapid depletion of all the amino acids in the bloodstream-except tryptophan-begins. Soon there after tryptophan enters the brain. Serotonin is synthesized;”

I have tried this 4 times in the past 4 weeks and it has stopped my headaches all 4 times. I have not had to use the imitrex. I thank the Lord for this.

Again I must repeat that this has worked for me. I am not telling anyone else to try this. Do your research and talk to your physician.

L.Smith

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by domm on Nov 24^th, 2002, 9:56am

lsmith - thanks for sharing. It is way too easy to become complacent about maintaining a healthy lifestyle. My cycles seem to come every 2 1/2 to 3 yrs, and I find myself using them as a nasty reminder to "clean up my act".
Thanks again - This is good sound advise.
domm

but - I don't think I can give up chocolate or coffee ;D

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Ueli on Nov 24^th, 2002, 11:21am

Hi Lsmith, welcome to the message board.

It looks like you've already done some reading on the links on the left side. But by doing more reading on the message board you will see why I oppose some of your statements:

Quote:

12. avoid foods that are known to trigger headaches such as chocolate, caffeine, alcohol, aged cheese, sardines, shellfish, nitrites, yeast

Since this is a site about cluster headaches this fucking old meegraine trigger list is absolutely out of place here. (It is not even of much help for M. people.) Coffee might be a trigger for some meegrainers, but most cluster folks use it to help abort an attack. Caffeine is an ingredient of some medications to abort an attacks (Cafergot as an example).

Quote:

6. take a good multivitamin with minerals daily
7. take vitamin C daily
8. take 500 mg of magnesium daily

For someone with a healthy diet (as you recommend) additional vitamin and mineral intake doesn't bring much, except money into the pocket of the nutritional additions industry.
Clusterheadaches is not a vitamin deficit disease.

Some of your recommendations I must qualify as downright cynic:

Quote:

1. get plenty of sleep 7-8 hours a night
19. get some sunshine during the day especially in the winter

Please tell us how to keep a regular sleep schedule and get 7-8 hours sleep with 3 or 4 attacks a night. Some people simply have not the founds to take a 3 month winter vacation in a sunnier place. >:(

Quote:

... and imitrex increases serotonin at some receptor sites...

False! Imitrex is a serotonin agonist, it binds to the same receptors as serotonin, thus mimicking a higher serotonin concentration.

Serotonin, as the main neurotransmitter, has lots more implications besides cluster. Maybe, boosting serotonin with the Wurtman diet can cure bulimia, but I very much doubt it has a more than negligible effect on clusters. After reading the synopses of the two books you quoted I cannot but conclude: The authors ride the diet wave, with the sole purpose of making $$$ with selling books.

PFNAD's
Ueli

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Nov 25^th, 2002, 9:17am

Hi Ueli, do you really believe that CH is not a lifestyle disease?

I am becoming more convinced that it is one. Just like heart disease, high blood pressure, some forms of cancer, some forms of diabetes, arthritis and any number of other complaints the human race suffers from. Surely it is possible that diet plays a major part?

Plenty of water helps keep the liver, kidneys, lymph (and skin) in clean and in good condition to assist removing toxic waste from all the presevatives, burnt hydrocarbons and the like, and all other nasty stuff we eat, drink and breathe. Eating plenty of fresh fruit and veg does the same.

Eating crap, drinking crap, smoking crap, breathing crap, sleeping crap and exercising crap has the opposite effect. Most of us do all/some/most of these.

Just because certain foods don't "trigger" a CH (or migraine) does not mean that long term they don't have the same effect.

I agree with L Smith. A healthy diet all the time may well prevent these damn CH. I know a lot of guys say this is bullshit, but I have been TOTALLY HA free for 6 months now on a diet that contains a lot more water, fruit and veg, and much less meat, wheat, dairy and alchohol. I have suffered from chronic HA, CH, Migraine, Tension HA for the past 40 odd years and this last 6 months has been the only totally HA free period I can remember in my life. I have taken no drugs of any sort for 6 months, a record for me!

I am very aware of what I eat these days but it is worth the effort to not get headaches.

When I mentioned this in previous posts I got responses inferring that Egg McMuffins, Beer, Burgers and Fatty chops had the same effect! Well you guys are welcome to them, and the headaches they cause those of us who are unlucky enough to be genetically predisposed to headaches.

I know people who smoke, drink and eat anything in vast quantities and never ever get headaches, not even hangovers. This does not mean it is ok for us clusterheads too!

Love J

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Charlie on Nov 25^th, 2002, 11:03pm

I'm not sure diet has much to do with it. I suspect there may be some triggers but so far as I know, I never had one. Mine went into remission 11 years ago and my diet wasn't great then, not great now. I don't eat a lot of junk but I do consume Stouffers and some other frozen stuff. I don't eat at McDonalds or Denny's.....or a lot of burgers, come to think of it. I drink gallons of coffee though and lots of bagels. I don’t like cooking much and I find I eat more when I do.

If life-style were a big factor, there would be a ton of clusterheads. Humans tend to be pretty tough and if you look at life in "the good old days," most of the time, their abuse of diet and alcohol, as well as the effects of pollution was as bad or even more pronounced.

However: If you find something that works or seems to work, stick with it. From where I sit, CH is a wiring defect or chemical imbalance or both.

Diets and what we call healthful living probably won't hurt but don't go nuts.

Charlie

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Nov 26^th, 2002, 1:08am

Maybe look at this way Charlie.

Not everyone will get heart disease, but if you are genetically predisposed to it then you better watch what you put into you body or it will kill you.

Llikewise for diabetes and any number of other potential problems. Some people can do whatever they like and live to a ripe old age with no problems. For many others it depends on lifestyle.

Why should CH be so different? If it is about "wiring defects or chemical imbalance" then maybe diet can aleviate the problem or make it worse.

Who is to say that in the "good old days" things were better or worse. You just died from it then or no one was able to help. Migraine and the like has been around forever and as far as I can see CH is a fairly recent name for what people suffered from for centuries or longer.

I am hoping that I am in remission like you are now. 11 years without CH sounds good to me!

6 months is short time I know and maybe after 5 years of this I can say I am cured, but 6 months of no OTC drugs is a good start for me, and if I do not get an episode for the next 18 months I feel justified to put it down to a diet that is right for me. Here's hoping.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by eyes_afire on Nov 26^th, 2002, 1:20am

If diet plays a role in CH, then there are many things that puzzle me:

What kinds of 'toxins' are we talking about here? Surely it can't be sugars, carbohydrates, proteins, or fats because the body needs all of these.

Why do episodic clusterheads have remissions without having changed diet? Why do clusterheads have pain free times? If a biological toxicity was causing the clusterheadaches then it is not likely that we would be experiencing the periodicity characteristic of clusterheadaches. Biological toxicity usually manifests itself with chronic symptoms.

How is it possible for these toxins to be acting specifically enough to only effect the nerves in the head? How can these toxins be so specific as to cause a unilateral headache... how could it not have an effect both sides simultaneously?

Why don't all severe diabetics get clusterheadaches? When the kidneys of diabetics lose thier efficiency, they need to beware of an increased buildup of toxins in the bloodstream, most notably causing ketoacidosis.

What are burnt hydrocarbons that have to be removed, why do they get burnt, and why do they have to be removed? I don't understand this concept of burnt hydrocarbons.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Nov 26^th, 2002, 1:41am

read my post properly. I am just giving examples of what problems some people suffer from and not others. The are not mutually depedant or mutually exclusive! Different things affect people differently. I am talking about car exhaust fumes, pollution and the like, combined with things in our "normal" diet that our organs may have problems removing (in some but not others?)

I really don't consider sugars, fats, carbs etc as toxins, but too much fat clogs the arteries, makes the liver and kidneys fatty. Too much sugar can throw the blood out of kilter, etc, etc. All of this affect how well our bodies remove toxins.

I think that CH may (you don't have to agree with me) well be a side affect of all this build up of toxins. At the end of an episode we may well have been able to rid ourselves of some of the toxins by the elimination due to the CH and this may be the reason for some remmision for a year or so until next time the build up happens. I read somewhere a few months ago (sorry can't remember now) that the average person holds between 1-10 pounds of various chemicals that are stored in our cells that the body cannot remove without a thorough detoxification. This ranges from lead to tar to any number of other nasty carcinogenic substances. These affect different people differently in my opinion.

One may get cancer, one may get heart desease, and just maybe one may suffer from CH.....

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Drk^Angel on Nov 27^th, 2002, 1:26pm

Mmmmmmmm... Burgers and beer... Thanks for reminding me...

PFDAN........................................ Drk^Angel

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by talitha on Dec 10^th, 2002, 8:32pm

can you take serotonin?
probably a stupid question but, hey,

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by eyes_afire on Dec 10^th, 2002, 9:02pm

Hi Talitha. At the present time I don't think it is possible to take serotonin. However it is possible to take things that mimic serotonin, thereby binding to receptor sites in the brain and preventing the reuptake of the natural serotonin (tricking the brain into thinking there is more available serotonin... anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Some of those things are:

1. Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) which are anti-depressants such as prozac, zoloft, paxil, and serzone

2. Tryptans such as imitrex, zomig, and maxalt.

3. Psilocybin which is converted to psilocin in the body.

Of course, there are several other substances which also act upon the serotonin system.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Riccardo on Dec 11^th, 2002, 3:29am

Just to clear some ideas, some simple (I hope) words about serotonin, Imitrex and so on.
This is not a medical text, so there are some things "approximate". If any (UELIIII! ) find bad errors in it, please correct me. But this wants only to clear in simplier way the serotonin thoughts.

- serotonin is a vasoconstrictor. If the levels are low, the vessels dilates, and vice versa.

- the CH comes from the vessels dilation (or, for someone the quick move from dilation to constriction) that "pushes" the nerves (especially the trigeminal nerve). This compression cause the pain

The Imitrex we take is not a vasoconstrictor, we can call it at least a vaso-normalizer. It reduces the section of vessels, and ceases the pain. It do so with giving "false" information to the 5-HT receptors. It lies to the receptors telling them that the level of serotonin is high (and is not!), so the vessels "relaxes".

lsmith! Imitrex is NOT a serotonin "increaser", it LIES to the brain, telling to it that levels are higher than normal.....quite different! ...otherwise, we could have a brain stroke any time we take Imitrex!

- The action of SSRI (Serotonin re-uptake inhibitor) as antidepressants is this: when you are in depression, the "signals" between cells, managed from the serotonin, are lessened.

This because the serotonin "bounce" on the next cell, and do not "link" to it, so cannot bring the signal forward (from this the name re-uptake).

Paxil and many other antidepressants avoid the re-uptake of the serotonin, and speed up the flow of signals (seems a defrag on your hard disk... ;D)

Now, I think that is clear that the antidepressants have nothing to do (AS ANTIDEPRESSANT) with the CH. The effects is given by the variation of serotonin levels.

CH and depression may exist together, but if you cure your depression, you do not cure the CH. Is only a SIDE-EFFECT, involving serotonin: the SSRIs speed up the data exchange between cells fighting the re-uptake. This make our brain thinking that the serotonin level is higher than the real (because serotonin function more efficiently!) and our brain reduces the serotonin level.

AND THIS CAUSE THE vessels to reduce its size (as a side effect!) and lower the CH pain.

I hope my poor English don't made me to confuse your brain..... nor creates a huge re-uptake of serotonin.... ;D

Ciao

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Bob P on Dec 11^th, 2002, 8:40am

It's been a while since I've read about 5HT (serotonin) but here goes.

Certain subtypes of the neurotransmitter 5HT, send signals to the smooth muscle surrounding the blood vessels to constrict. My guess is that during normal operation, the hypothalamus receives signals from the blood pressure sensors, telling it to increase or decrease the release of 5HT to control the vessels. In a cluster, the hypo either receives a messed up signal or processes it incorrectly and the vessels go wild.

Imitrex is a 5HT agonist, i.e. it acts like 5HT. It attaches to the correct 5HT subtype receptor sites on a nerve and sends the signal to constrict the blood vessels. It is a vasoconstritor. That is why some people feel the tightness in the chest and neck and it may even cause cardiac problems. Imitrex is more attuned to the specific receptor sites which control the vessels in the brain rather than vasoconstrictors like cafergot which constrict all of the vessels in the body. So this makes it more appropriate to treat CH.

In the brain, a neuron releases 5HT into the synapse or gap between it and the next neuron. The 5HT attaches to the sites on the receiving neuron and sends the appropriate signal. Once the signal is sent, the receiving neuron releases the 5HT from the receptor site. The 5HT either floats off into nothingness or is taken back by the neuron which sent it. This taking back of the 5HT by the original sending neuron is reuptake. SSRI's block the sending neuron from taking back the 5HT, causing it to remain in the synapse and be availiable to attach to the receiving neuron. This in essence raises the amount of available 5HT.

If you really want to study it, go to the OUCH Research Library and click on the Serotonin section.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by talitha on Dec 11^th, 2002, 9:43am

Thank you for all the information! Will study serotonin.
I'm just now tapering off the 4th round of prednisone, and have started on cafergot-taking 2 mg about 30 minutes before bed-this episode has lasted 2 months and I'm really getting deperate and depressed and exhausted and I really hate these headaches!!!

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Ueli on Dec 11^th, 2002, 6:44pm

I think, it is not the overall (blood-) level of serotonin that is of importance, CH bouts or attacks are not caused by an overall lack of serotonin.
There is OTC "nutritional food supplement", called 5-HTP, that is said to boost serotonin (5-HT) production, as it a precursor in 5-HT synthesis. But as said above, this does not help us much. The results of clusterheads taking 5-HTP is at best inconclusive, similar as for the general public (where a placebo effect may occur). Somebody who's serotonin production is seriously out of whack should seek the advice of an endocrinologist, not of a snake oil pedlar.

As BobP said, to abort an attack we must reinforce the nerve signal to the contracting muscles around the arteries in the head.
The SSRI's do this by keeping the serotonin for a longer time in the synapses, mimicking a stronger nerve signal. If used as antidepressant, the SSRI's reinforce nerve signals somewhere else. The serotonin concentration in a firing synapse is many times higher than the overall serum concentration, therefore boosting (overall) serotonin production is hardly of any help.

Serotonin agonists act in the same way as serotonin: binding to the 5-HT receptor sites in the synapse, thus increasing the stimulus. The oldest 5-HT agonists are the time-honored ergot compounds. Their drawback: they constrict indiscriminately all arteries, including the capillaries and can therefore result in blue and black fingers and toes. Albert Hofmann searched for derivatives of ergot that acted more specifically on the larger vessels only. He found methysergide (sansert), no longer produced because its heavy side effects, and lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), that after the debaucheries of Timothy Leary was outlawed by Uncle Sam, who rather liked to see young men on another trip, one to Vietnam.
The triptans have a strong affinity to the 5-HT receptor subtypes of the smooth muscles around the larger arteries in the head and less elsewhere. The newest triptans are said to act so specifically they hardly affect the heart.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Dec 12^th, 2002, 1:02am

Hi Ueli

Which of the "newer Triptans" have little affect on the heart? I ave always found Imigran/Imitrex to give me a tight feeling in the chest with palpitations of the heart for quite a while after injection. A bit scary at first but got used to it over the years.

I tried Maxalt wafers which you dissolve under the tongue, but wasted a whole lot of money on a batch of them last cycle. They did absolutely nothing for me. Imigran rocks, but having enough meds for a cycle is difficult. I get a prescription filled every month and save them until I need them. Even then I soon run down.

I am now pinning my hopes on doing a 1 week detox diet every 3 months for the forseable future as a preventative.

Love J

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Ueli on Dec 13^th, 2002, 1:45pm

JM, about the different triptans:

From a description of the latest triptan, eletriptan (Relpax) by Pfizer:
It is a selective agonist to the vascular 5-HT_1B and the neuronal 5-HT_1D receptors. Its high affinity to 5-HT_1F receptors may contribute to its usefulness for meegraines. It has only a low affinity to 5-HT_1A, 5-HT_2B, 5-HT_1E and 5-HT₇ receptor sites.
(What ever this means ;), I think the receptor subtypes in the heart have a low affinity to eletriptan.)

However, one point must be kept in mind: As abortive only the fast acting triptans, such as Imitrex injections or Maxalt MLT, are of use for us. Any triptan taken in pill form takes usually much too long (30-60 minutes) to be useful as abortive.
But taken an hour before an expected attack triptan pills make a great short time preventative. I take 20 mg of eletriptan before bed time, and since doing so I didn't have any nightly attacks. (Actually, I take half of a 40 mg pill, since with Pfizer all sizes are the same price, duh >:()

PFNADs
Ueli

BTW, eletriptan is not yet on the US market.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Mark C on Dec 13^th, 2002, 7:19pm

A couple of thoughts on an interesting thread....
I am 41 years old and have had clusters since puberty, about 13. I am an Air Force Brat, Daddy was a Chief Master Sargent in for 27 years. This meant I traveled around the country for most of my earlier life. Drastic environmental changes have made no discernable difference in the frequency,duration or severity of my CH. This pattern has held true for all of my life. I have changed just about everything in my life at one time or another, diet, jobs, housing, even women. I have eaten many various foods from many areas of this country. From North Carolina to Maine to Alaska. None of this affected my CH in any way. Because of this I believe very little, if anything outside of my body affects my CH. I wish I could identify something then I could control it!
I also suffer from depression and have had many of the anti-depressents mentioned and have noticed no effect as far as my CH if I am on an any-depressent or not. I have even experienced a CH attack on LSD, albeight many years ago, and it was a horrible experience to say the least.
That being said, I agree that leading a healthy lifestyle cannot be degraded if for no other reason that it is easier for me to fight when I am healthy. My last cycle was one of the longest I have ever had. I lost nearly 20 lbs in two months. If I am strong to begin with my fighting chances are better, IMHO.
Imitrex works for me. so far that is the only family of drugs that have ever had a positive effect on my pain. I am still searching for the elusive preventive that will work for me. Until then, pass the shot please.
Good Luck,
Mark

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by cluster0557 on Dec 18^th, 2002, 12:33am

I tend to agree with Mark.

My lifestyle and diet up until I got clusters was a fairly healthy lifestyle with exception to smoking.

This is one of the first things I quit when they started and although my body felt better from no smoking my head went to hell quickly with the devil.

Water, fruit diet and all that has been and is no help to me. Eating healthy helps my heart not my CH ridden head.

Stress relief helps an attack but that is natural to all CH sufferers. Relieve the stress during the attack and it severity rapidly can decrease. Thank god I have loving wife and two labs who like to lick my eye. It calms me during bad attacks. In my cold weather cycles me and the girls go for walks in the dark. The cold and excercise help when Imitrex and other abortives fail.

Until I went chronic mine were winter only CH attacks. Now my worst cycle so far in 2002 was in June, July and August. Blows the hell out of sunlight and serotonin theories of CH. Each of those three months I went on waterski vacations and paid dearly with CH attacks each time. But i got plenty of SUn :P 8)

As far as I am concerned none of us know exactly why CH occurs. Some of us get lucky and find something that helps but the devil still lurks.

Good Luck All

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Dec 18^th, 2002, 3:24am

Hi Cluster

sorry to hear that you have gone chronic and that "healthy eating" did not help you at all. My own relief (at least I am praying that it was due to this) was not just based on eating fruit veg water, but I undertook a very extensive Detoxification process to rid my body of toxins, and then trying to eat more healthily from then on. I am also doing a 1 week detox ever 3 months from now on.

My first detox was not really very pleasant and I suffered all sorts of other symptoms, probably from some sort of toxic shock as my body released all these chemicals back into the blood, urine, faeces and such like. After about a week I started to feel better. The CH stopped after 3 or 4 days and have not returned since, neither has my migraines or other headaches. Nearly 8 months PF to date. Which is way past my previous record.

I am really hoping this is my cure but I only time will tell as I approach another cycle usually due in either December or March every year. If it comes back then I will have to admit defeat and just go back to Imigran injections again.

Try and get some help from an expert in detoxification if you can. I believe (have to believe!) that this helped me. I know what worked for me but this may be different for you.

I just have to have faith in this process as the alternative is too shit to consider. At 50 years of age and most of my life with variously diagnosed (depended on the doctor) migraines, stress/tension headaches and cluster headaches I was at my wits end last cycle and tried this detox after a recommendation from a friend and it broke my cycle rapidly. It may well have been coincidence and my cycle just ended on it's own, but don't blame me for hoping this did it for me. I have helped 2 other chronic migraine and headache sufferers I know with this advice and the same treatment and they both have been HA free for months now and both express their gratitude whenever the see me.

If you are desperate you will try anything. I used a product called BePure which does not seem to be on sale in the USA but is available in South Africa http://www.pharmaline.co.za/Bepure.htm

Call it snake oil if you like but worth a try

Love J

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by cluster0557 on Dec 18^th, 2002, 7:48am

jmorgan,

I Hope detox works for you. The year before last with exception of verapamil and nortriptilyne I got rid off all oter stuff that was prescribed for me and after two weeks of the shakes I felt one heck of a lot better.

Unfortunately due to this battle I need Verapamil to keep Blood Pressure down so it is not going away any time soon. Other stuff is essentailly gone and my body has been free of garbage for a long time.

The Devil still be a with me but I am glad it is leaving you and a few others alone.

I personnaly would love to see my life go back to episodic days or none at alll. I can only hope.

Into each life a little rain must fall. Unfortunately I seem to be in a hurricane season here.

Thanks for the input

Jim

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Ueli on Dec 18^th, 2002, 9:07am

jm, what I'm still interested in is what these "toxins" are.
Toxins is a scientifically sounding euphemism for poisons, a catch-all sounding impressive and saying nothing.
You wrote earlier that up to 5 kg of these "toxins" can accumulate in the body, and if they can be washed out in a few days, they should show up in the excretions and would be easy to investigate and analyze and put a name on them. But even a "scientific" site like Pharmaline.co.za only speaks of general "toxins", without specifying their nature further. And IMO for a good reason, they hope to lure some suckers with their pseudoscientific babble to buy their snake oil. If their BePURE stuff really could get rid of one or the other poisonous ("toxic") residue, they would put a name on it and not subsume it in a meaningless catch word. Or do they want to imply that their miracle stuff helps against every conceivable poison (and of course leaves the good stuff in the body) in order to maximize business?

BTW, what about the toxins in the oh so healthy fruits and veggies? Like residue of insecticides, fungicides, weed controllers, artificial fertilizers, .....

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by ave on Dec 18^th, 2002, 7:01pm

Morgan, I am happy for you that you have been painfree for so long, but:

I am a clusterhead and...

None of the trigger foods, smells or drinks work for me, just liquorice.
Alcohol may even dull the pain for a night
Quitting tobacco has not affected the beast
My sleeping patterns tend to go awry BEFORE a cluster period is due. It is NOT the irregular life style that calls them up...
Relaxation is a dangerous thing and tends to lure the beast to me. My worst periods have ALL started during my vacations!

I like to cook vegetarian meals and eat very, very little meat myself.

YET I HAVE CLUSTERS!

Answer me that

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by cluster0557 on Dec 18^th, 2002, 10:24pm

on 12/18/02 at 19:01:30, ave wrote:

Morgan, I am happy for you that you have been painfree for so long, but:

None of the trigger foods, smells or drinks work for me, just liquorice.
Alcohol may even dull the pain for a night
Quitting tobacco has not affected the beast
My sleeping patterns tend to go awry BEFORE a cluster period is due. It is NOT the irregular life style that calls them up...
Relaxation is a dangerous thing and tends to lure the beast to me. My worst periods have ALL started during my vacations!

YET I HAVE CLUSTERS!

Answer me that

Ave,

Interesting I have similar symptoms but I am a meat and potatoes person. If I am in-active I relaxing in any way shape or form or sitting in another meeting my beast comes out. If I am in yard working, going for long walks etc my beast decides it will sleep until I am done and then all hell breaks out. Relaxation or no physical activity is my worst trigger.

Saw Neuro Today. I now have plan A B and C.
Plan A kick does of verapamil to 240mg 3 x daily, Plan B Add Welbutrin 75MF and plan C add Indocin SR 75 MG.

As aid to avoid REM issues he put me on alternate for Valium. Less hangover affects. Alos a prevent I am now on Pericatctin.

We shall see if it stops raining on my parade.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Dec 19^th, 2002, 5:25am

Hi Ueli and Cluster

I know this is hard for you guys to swallow and I don't blame you for thinking this is snake oil. The detox people of whom there are many say a detox can take a month or much longer to complete.

As to the scientific names of these toxins I don't claim to know them but do you deny that people get sick from many causes related to food and air or pollution? Please do some research of your own on the subject and keep an open mind to it before you write it off completely.

I tried the Bepure stuff in desperation and I know it did something for me. I know it is only herbs and spices and such like but it cleared me out big time over a 3/4 day period. I suffered for several weeks on this detox from runny tummy, green shit, stiff back and tight neck and then I started to feel great after the 2nd or 3rd week on the bepure, with more energy, all pain gone and digestion back to normal. I continued this "treatment" for a month and lost quite a bit of weight too. I have done several short detoxes on bepure since then and did not get the same affect. In fact nothing really happened so I assume my body was reasonably clean from toxins from a healthier lifestyle.

I remember the 5kgs of toxin statement I made and stand by it. It may take a lot more than 3 days to remove them, but over the month detox I lost 6 kgs. I will try and find the link for article for you.

Regarding triggers. My only trigger that set me off in cycle is alchohol. Even a single beer starts the CH inside an hour. I do not think the "bad foods" trigger the CH but acumulate over time to reach some sort of critical mass that puts me over the edge and starts a cycle. For me I think it is wheat and yeast.

Like I said before it may be bullshit but 8 months PF with no HA, migraine or CH is more than I have ever had since my school years, so you can perhaps understand why I am so avangelic about the detox method. But trust me it involves more than just 3 days on water fruit and veg.

As for the relaxation starting CH I could not agree more. My cycle tend to come during christmas leave or over easter leave and strike worse at weekends. I think thatthe 8 month to 2 years build up of toxins causes CH to strike. I also think that the CH is perhaps natures way of telling us to detox or assist us in cleaning out somehow.

Take the time to research my bullshit theory for yourself, but for now I am sticking to it and hope my CH does not come back.

I am sticking on this message board long term to see what other alternatives are available should I need them. It has inspire me to dig deep to try an cure myself, especially all the flaming I got early on from you and Ted!

Love J

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by bRathbone on Jan 16^th, 2003, 11:38am

Clusters are not diet or exercise related for me. I've eaten and exercised good for many years and had episodic cycles come and go during that period. In one case I was carefully writing down everything I ate in a training diary so I know that before, during, and after the cluster I didn't change my diet or detox. The cluster simply happened. (Actually it was triggered I think by staying a week and half in the high altitudes of Denver, something I'm not used to.)

Everyone's different though, and if a modified diet works for other people, great for them. Anything that results in less headaches is good.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Jan 17^th, 2003, 1:06am

another month pain free and the christmas holidays and one of my normal cycle times come and gone with no problems. Whoopee!

brathbone - I used to think my CH were triggered by altitude or high/low air pressure or changes in the weather, but not so sure nowadays. I can't seem to make the link now as I did 20 years ago. They are definately seasonal though for me, and maybe diet (and exervise?) does play a part as this also changes with the seasons for most people.

As you say maybe its different strokes for different folks.

I'm sticking by my detox regime every 3 months or so to keep my ch at bay until proven otherwise. I will only admit defeat if the ch come back after all my efforts. I promise to bow and scrape to Ueli, Ted and many others if the do.

Right now I have to believe I am right and the rest of you are wrong - it is my only hope for a cure for me.

John

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Nasser on Jan 17^th, 2003, 3:53am

JMorgan

I agree with you. I take your posts seriously.
I have been pain free for the longest time without any medication. I found a cure for my CH. I do get mild shadows sometimes but not the beast.

Good luck to all

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Jan 17^th, 2003, 8:03am

Hi Nasser

Where have you been for so long?

Don't let the flamers get you down. Just ignore the fuckers (starting to sound like Jonny now?) like I do now.

What have you been doing to keep the beast at bay?

John

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Nasser on Jan 17^th, 2003, 9:38am

Hi John

I am still around...Pain free

Swimming daily, occasinal head reflexology and massages (preventive measures).. Sleeps regularly.. drink lots of water, balanced diet, stress tabs (vitamins + zinc) and green tea..... and regular head and facial excercises. It sounds simple but works. I consider myself lucky because I work in a health club and everything I need is handy.

And lots of snake oil (lol just kidding)

PF for all

Nasser

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by bRathbone on Jan 22^nd, 2003, 2:00am

I've gone more than 4 years between clusters without "detox" or any of the other snake oil that just removes money from people's wallets. And I've known people who have gone 10 years between clusters without any natural crap.

It's just the nature of the headaches, they come and go. That's why they're called clusters.

If people must have a superstition so they can believe they'll never have a cluster again, why not go back to the water treatment which used to be around here, 8 glasses a day = no clusters? At least that doesn't cost any money.

To each their own, but I just hate to see fellow cluster heads told their headaches are their own fault (for not detoxing) and being told to throw their money away on snake oil.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Jan 22^nd, 2003, 2:20am

hey rathbone

who said anything about detoxing having to cost money!

I try and drink 8 glasses of water every day and have done so for the past 9 months. I too hope it will keep ch at bay.

As for the belief that they may be caused by what we are doing to ourselves well I am entitled to my opinion until absolutely proven otherwise.

All I know is that the past almost 10 months now I have been TOTALLY headache free. That includes free from the tension HA, migraines, dull annoying headaches etc that I have suffered from all my life (I'm 51)

I too have had some long breaks from ch in the past but have never had a break from the "normal day to day" headaches that billions suffer from. Just look at the volume of OTC pain relief products to see how many suffer from HA!

The medical world has no absolute conclusive proof of reason for ch and no known cure either. The fact is no one really knows the cause, they just have theories (like me). All we are offered is drugs to temporarily relieve the symptoms.

Do yourself a favour and try a detox and see if it helps. If it doesn't - well at least you tried it, and all it should cost you is some TIME, EFFORT and RESEARCH.

How many of you guys out there have tried my so called "cure"? No one has ever yet posted that they tried it and failed!

Don't critiscise what you have not yet tried for yourself. If you are really suffering so badly you will be prepared to try anything. When I was offered this advice I also thought it was bullshit, but my wife persuaded me to give it a go and now I have no regrets.

John

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Starfire3 on Jan 24^th, 2003, 2:01pm

Hi jm (and everybody) -

I'm still out here too, but I get slack about checking this forum when I'm PF. Like you - detox, diet, water, breathing techniques, meditation and excercise has given me my life back. ;D

Since you were trying the same thing, I've thought about you now and then and wondered how you were. I'm really glad to hear that it's still working for you, too. I hope that others can find some relief through lifestyle changes.

As for why some folks' HA are triggered by certain foods and others' aren't, consider how allergies work. One guy's breathing shuts down if he eats shrimp. The guy sitting next to him can eat it with gusto and go looking for seconds. Allergies also cause headaches, rashes, and other physical reactions. I suggest that the environmental and food borne chemicals that you mention are allergens to some and not to others.

I could be full of hooey - but if being full of hooey means being PF without drugs, I'm OK with that. 8)

I wish a PF/DF and happy New Year to all.
(and a Happy Friday, too)

- Starfire

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Jan 27^th, 2003, 12:53am

Hi Starfire

Thanks for the support and for thinking of me from time to time. I really needed to hear this.

You are one of the few people on this board that I know of to try the detox "cure". I am so glad it is having a positive effect for you. Any others out there who used it please post about it. If not then try it out for yourself.

My dreaded cycle is due to start around March so I am preparing to fight it off next month before it starts.

John

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Starfire3 on Jan 27^th, 2003, 7:50am

Wish U luck with Springtime.
It's a time I dread and love. I'm prepping for it by getting even more chem-crap out of my life.

I've tossed out most commercial household cleaners - some of them used to trigger HA for me so they are gone. Now I use vinegar, baking soda, dish soap and the new citrus and oxygen cleaners. I still do use bleach and ammonia but I do it very sparingly and with good ventilation. It's amazing how well these natural cleaners work.

I usually have a bad time of it early January. I believe that this is because I usually eat a lotta crap - sugar and preserved/prepared foods binge - during the holidays.

Didn't do that this time and January was not as bad this year. I had a few shadows but they most stayed that way. I had one HA of note and it was only about kip-6. I hope that as I wrestle my habits back under control, the shadows will start to recede, too. This 'missed' cycle doesn't prove squat, but for me, it tends to re-inforce our theory.

I have to admit that I've never achieved complete HA free living (just kept them under kip 6), but I have never actually gone all organic before either. Must admit - this wrestling of habits is tough. I really want to be lazy about things, LOL.

But seeing some success will keep me honest. Changes like this take time. My body has to rebuild nutrient stores and clear out chemical crap, some of which is stored in fat cells.

Still, because I did manage to control the worst of my HA without drugs for a long time while I had better lifestyle habits; and because my beast grew claws again when I got lazy; and because he is sheathing his claws again now that I'm being careful again, I'm content that I'm on the right path for me.

As for the list that started this thread. I agree. Water, stress management, excercise and sunshine really matter. Basically, removing as much stress from the body as possible gives the body a strong, neutral starting point to fight from. I'm still looking at supplements, but again, giving the body the basic building blocks it needs makes sense and some are missing from our diets because we don't eat stuff that we used to eat (tripe, ugly vegetables, odd mushrooms, etc).

PFDAN to all.

- Starfire

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by jmorgan52 on Jan 27^th, 2003, 8:26am

HI Starfire

For me on the southermost tip of Africa in Capetown it is summer now and my cluster come in either december or march/april which autumn (fall) for us.

I don't really take the "organic route" as it is just too expensive. I try and avoid the preservatives, msg, salt, wheat and sugars as much as possible. To me that means only eating fresh food as much as possible and avoiding tinned or ready made crap and fast foods if I can. I try and eat as much fresh fruit and vegetables as possible and cook using olive/peanut/nut/vegetable oils
with less red meat and more fish and chicken than I used to eat before. I still like to drink beer and wine (and anything else) and still eat some chocolate and stuff, but try and be moderate when I can.

Every 3 months I do a good clean out for a week and then I plan a full on detox for a month starting in February to try and ensure I get past the cycle with getting struck by ch. For me I believe that wheat is the biggest factor, and I have all but given it up.

I intend to keep posting on this subject until I have proved conclusively that my "cure" works. I would love to hear from any others who have really tried it themselves.

To those who don't believe that ch is caused by something they can control themselves by diet, well I'm sorry you don't like hearing it from me, but even though you think you are doing nothing "wrong" you may, as starfire says be slightly allergic to certain foods without knowing it.

John

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by cluster0557 on Jan 27^th, 2003, 12:02pm

JM and Starfie

I have been watching this subject for a while since my
original posts to it and I am amazed at how you guys have at least convinced yourselves re: Detox.

2 years ago I have cleaned up my act and also detoxed my body twice.

I don't smoke, drink or eat unhealthy anymore .

I do take crap for my cluster because without it I would be in a worse hell than I am now. I have been Cronic for 14 months and counting.

I cannot see detoxing again while still cronic. It did not help me when I detoxed 2 years ago. It actually got worse probably not from detoxing but from some other influence.

Believe what you want and what floats you collective boats. I know it is not a solution that works or will work for me.

Title: Re: serotonin
Post by Starfire3 on Jan 27^th, 2003, 3:29pm

I guess first off, it's important to remember that while many people try new meds and therapies, nobody is trying to convince themselves of anything. We are all looking for results.

If you tried this and it didn't give you results, then either it's not part of the answer for you or you didn't finish detoxing your body. Overall, it's no different than when people try O2 or meds that don't work for them. Except, of course, this method has no downside for your body so it's a good place to start.

I'm sorry to hear that it didn't help you at all. Avoiding additives and chemicals is a relatively straightforward change - if not actually easy to do. The changes John and I are talking about are more than just taking a detox and calling it done. It's a committment that takes work.

Besides the obvious problem - it's hard to say no to yourself when your buddies are all chowing down on buffalo wings and beer - it's not easy to find clean food at all sometimes, let alone at an affordable price. Restaurant and salad bar food is usually loaded with preservatives, for example. Grocery store chickens are actually only 6 weeks old, but have been pumped full of hormones and stuff to make them grow faster. All of this is passed on to our cells when we eat the food.

One thing that has been made very clear on this forum is that each of us is different. O2 is magic for some, useless for others. Certain meds work for some, do nothing for some, and negatively impact others. Toxins in MY body apparently make me more susceptible to a headache and reducing the toxins (along with other lifestyle changes) helps me control my headaches.

The important thing is that you tried it before saying it didn't work for you.