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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2002 >> Experimental research chemicals
        
(Message started by: Floyd_F on Oct 29^th, 2002, 12:22am)

Title: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Oct 29^th, 2002, 12:22am

Okay, I'm going to try to phrase this carefully. The following substances are not approved for human consumption, and may be construed to fall under analog laws in the United States, or be otherwise proscribed elsewhere. Were a person to ingest one of these substances, the effects may vary, and severe health consequences could result. These substances have not been thoroughly tested for safety or effectiveness.

I do not suffer from Cluster Headaches, personally, however I do suffer from chronic hip pain. After reading various summaries of beneficial use of psilocybin and LSD in treatment of CH, however, and in combination with certain experiences I have had on pain relief from certain serotonergic materials, I undertook to discover what alternatives worked best for my condition. Perhaps you may find that it benefits yours, as well.

There are three basic groups of materials which seem to have a profound pain reduction effect, all of which are serotonergic in effect. My first realization of profound pain relief was from the ergoloid LSA, found in Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds (Argyreia nervosa) and various species of Morning Glory seeds. The effect was temporary, however.

My second experience was far more potent, shortly after taking approximately 100mg of the phenethylamine MDMA, my hip simply ceased to hurt at all. Pain did not return to baseline the next day, but gradually redeveloped over the following days.

Please note that both LSA and MDMA are scheduled drugs in the United States, and I do not advise anyone to take them for any reason. I refer to my experiences above only to provide some background.

After these experiences, and some follow-up experiments, I did some research and discovered this board. I felt it might be worthwhile to experiment with substituted tryptamines for pain relief. These have been the most effective treatments by far, having a pain relief duration exceeding a week per dose in my case. I have experimented with a number of different materials and can summarize them below, but in each case it is important to note that pain relief was not satisfactory with a less than fully psychedelic dose. This may be otherwise for CH sufferers, however.

The first substituted tryptamine I tried was 4-Acetoxy-Diethyltryptamine (4-AcO-DET), which is roughly analogous to psilocin, with a very short duration of psychedelic action (about 2-3 hours). 10mg of this appears to be sufficient in my case to create full relief of symptoms for a week. It is also very mind-warping for those few hours, and difficult to use on a weekly basis. The shortness of the mental effects argues in its favor, however.

Another substituted tryptamine I have found less mentally warping and therefore easier to use on a regular schedule is 5-Methoxy-Diisopropyltryptamine (5-MeO-DiPT). At 8mg the effects are principally physical, but unfortunately I have not found satisfactory relief at doses below 14mg. My usual dose is 16mg which gives a reasonable margin, this provides excellent pain relief for a week. The mental effects are quite notable at this level, however, lasting for about 5 hours, and physically it is very stimulating and impossible to sleep on for many hours thereafter. 5-MeO-DiPT isn't closely analogous to anything else in structure or effect.

I have also tried psilocybin mushrooms (4 grams, dried) and had profound relief for at least a week, and the ergoloid LSD (two microdots), which gave excellent relief with increasing pain twinges after a day or two, therefore I found this unsatisfactory (at least at this dosage level). I suspect LSD clears the system faster than the tryptamines (which include psilocybin), thus having less benefit for prolonged pain relief.

Relevant to CH sufferers, the great benefit I derived from substituted tryptamines like 4-AcO-DET and 5-MeO-DiPT may be applicable to your condition as well, and these chemicals are not scheduled at this time. There is a disadvantage in that they are not easy to find, however if anyone wishes assistance in obtaining these chemicals for your own researches, I would be happy to respond to private messages. Again, I will not be responsible for anyone using these chemicals improperly, or for any negative health consequences you may experience if you consume them. I reiterate that they are not intended to be used for human consumption. That they have helped me, and could hypothetically help others, is a matter to be resolved by proper scientific experiments.

For more information on these materials, see:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4_acetoxy_det/4_acetoxy_det.shtml

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dipt/5meo_dipt.shtml

I hope this helps someone.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Oct 29^th, 2002, 12:29am

A quick follow-up, to note that all psychedelics are not beneficial for pain relief. I have found, for instance, that mescaline (a phenethylamine extracted from certain kinds of cactus) not only fails to provide pain relief, but if anything intensified my awareness of pain for several days. And although I have no personal experience of the following chemicals, I am told that the phenethylamines 2C-B, 2C-T-7 and 2C-T-2 would be unlikely to do anything beneficial for me. That MDMA works in spite of being also a phenethylamine may be some kind of fluke, in any case, the tryptamines seem to provide the most reliable benefit.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by 2E2D on Oct 29^th, 2002, 1:41am

One question... These chemicals have provided you with pain relief, but what makes you think that they will provide relief from clusters?

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Mark C on Oct 29^th, 2002, 4:28am

WTF....................................................

......................................???......................

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Oct 29^th, 2002, 4:52am

> One question... These chemicals have provided you with pain relief, but
> what makes you think that they will provide relief from clusters?

The reason I think they might work is that they operate on the same serotonergic pathways as psilocybin and LSD which have been claimed to provide relief from clusters. Obviously I have no way to be sure, but I put the information here so that others could determine whether or not it was helpful to them.

If people are dealing in the black market to get relief, an alternative which avoids this and provides the same or (based on my own possibly analogous experience) potentially better relief is worth being at least aware of.

I'm not selling anything and I have nothing to gain by putting this out here, I just wanted to contribute back because I followed the discussions here in the past and that helped me to find a solution to my own situation.

Like I said, I hope it's helpful. If not, I'm sorry.

Title: A little info on MDMA
Post by Bob P on Oct 29^th, 2002, 9:17am

Ecstasy Use Depletes Brain’s Serotonin Levels

ST. PAUL, MN – Use of the recreational drug Ecstasy causes a severe reduction in the amount of serotonin in the brain, according to a study in the July 25 issue of Neurology, the scientific journal of the American Academy of Neurology.

The study examined the brain of a 26-year-old man who had died of a drug overdose. He had been using Ecstasy for nine years, and in the last months of his life had also started using cocaine and heroin. His brain was compared to those from autopsies of 11 healthy people.

"The levels of serotonin and another chemical associated with serotonin were 50 to 80 percent lower in the brain of the Ecstasy user," said study author Stephen Kish, PhD, of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada. "This is the first study to show that this drug can deplete the level of serotonin in humans."

Ecstasy, which is known chemically as methylenedioxymethamphetamine, or MDMA, is structurally related to the hallucinogen mescaline and the stimulant amphetamine. MDMA causes neurons, or nerve cells, to release serotonin, a neurotransmitter that controls mood, pain perception, sleep, appetite and emotions. Ecstasy users report an increased awareness of emotion and a heightened sense of intimacy.

"Some of the behavioral effects of this drug are probably due to the massive release and depletion of serotonin," Kish said. "And the depression that people feel after going off the drug could also be explained by the depletion of serotonin in the brain."

The low levels of serotonin were found in the striatal area of the brain, which plays a key role in coordinating movement. In addition to serotonin, the level of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid, also known as 5-HIAA and a major breakdown product of serotonin, was also low in the brain of the Ecstasy user.

"Of course, these findings should be confirmed through additional studies," Kish said. "Conclusions based on a single case can only be tentative."

Researchers confirmed the man’s drug use through analysis of his brain, blood and hair. The analysis also confirmed that he had been using cocaine and heroin in the last months of his life. Kish said other research has shown that those drugs do not affect serotonin levels.

The man started using Ecstasy once a month at age 17. His usage increased, and in the last three years of his life he used it four to five nights a week at "rave" clubs, usually including a three-day weekend binge during which he took six to eight tablets. On the day after these binges, his friends said he appeared depressed and had slow speech, movement and reaction time.

Kish said research should also be done to determine whether increasing serotonin levels in people who are going off the drug would help eliminate some of the behavioral problems that occur during withdrawal.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Oct 29^th, 2002, 2:45pm

In reply to Bob P:

I did not post here to start a debate on the merits or risks of MDMA. I only mentioned its pain relieving properties because it was relevant to the general point, and gave background to my own investigations. Substituted tryptamines are dissimilar from MDMA, which is a phenethylamine, and have a very different mechanism of action and effect. Both have a serotonergic aspect, however, which may explain their respective benefits in treating pain.

However, since you raise the study, I will only point out how poorly evidenced the conclusions are. Here you have only a single datapoint, which is clearly a case of polydrug abuse over a long period of time, culminating in overdose and death. It is not even stated what drug he overdosed on. There can in any case be no justification to draw any direct correspondence between the deceased's ultimate serotonin levels and his previous excessive use of street "ecstasy" (which, in point of fact, often contains no MDMA at all, but any number of other substances and adulterants). Nor would be be reasonable to assume that any conclusions would apply to someone using MDMA on an infrequent (i.e., once every few months) basis.

Tylenol can kill, if used to excess. It can also provide pain relief to millions of minor headache and other discomfort sufferers. No drug is safe, everything has risks and should be used, if at all, only with full consideration of the possible benefits, side-effects, contraindications and interactions, etc.

If your objective is to discredit me, because I have admitted using MDMA in the past, you have no basis to do so. If you have reason to believe that substituted tryptamines are unhelpful in treating cluster headache, that would be relevant and useful to point out. However, the substituted tryptamines psilocybin and psilocin have already been generally admitted to provide relief to many sufferers, despite their scheduled status. The substituted tryptamines 4-AcO-DET and 5-MeO-DiPT are unscheduled at this time, and deserve scientific study. I believe they might be found to provide substantial relief to cluster headache sufferers.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Bob P on Oct 29^th, 2002, 3:07pm

No need to get all worked up and excited over it Floyd. If you want to debate it, you'll have to do that with the writers of the article as I know nothing at all about it.

I would point out that clusterheads are not looking for pain relief as much as looking to stop the cause of the pain. This is why narcotics are of little to no use to us.

I'm really not in the mood today or I'd get ya all lathered up and have some fun. Maybe hub will want a piece of ya.

Have a good day, hope the hip keeps treating you well.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by DougL on Oct 31^st, 2002, 12:33pm

Ok, this one I will get in on.

I have used and very much enjoyed and still would like to enjoy ecstacy.

However every time I have used ecxtacsy it has cause me to go back into cycle.
Yes it has stoped a cluster in it's tracks for me. But the out come of use was to cause me to go back into cycle untill my serritotonin levals went back to normal.

Dougl

Ps Floyd? want to send me a sample? LOL

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Oct 31^st, 2002, 2:25pm

DougL:

I was interested to read how "ecstasy" stopped your cluster headache in its tracks, but I'm not surprised it aggravated your cycle. I'm a little concerned that people may be getting the wrong idea here, I definitely don't think that MDMA is a useful treatment for clusters or for my own hip pain. Even if it does provide profound short-term relief, the effects are entirely too temporary, at best, and it has a great many other downsides. For one, its "desirable effects" diminish greatly with repeated use, and the very real possibility of dependency and depression develop. Plus, some studies have suggested that it may be neurotoxic. There are other benefits which some may derive from infrequent use, but it isn't relevant here. In any case, I'm not advocating it, and I certainly don't have any samples, free or otherwise.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Oct 31^st, 2002, 6:34pm

on 10/29/02 at 15:07:28, Bob P wrote:

I would point out that clusterheads are not looking for pain relief as much as looking to stop the cause of the pain. This is why narcotics are of little to no use to us.

Just a final note on this: 5-MeO-DiPT and 4-AcO-DET are not narcotics, they are substituted tryptamines and structurally similar compounds to psilocybin and psilocin, which are defined chemically as 4-phosphoryloxydimethyltryptamine (4-PO-DMT) and 4-hydroxydimethyltryptamine (4-HO-DMT) respectively. It is believed that 4-AcO-DET in particular takes effect after deacetylization to 4-hydroxydiethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET), and for that matter, that psilocybin dephosphorylates to psilocin before taking effect. Thus, the only important difference, chemically, between 4-AcO-DET and psilocybin or psilocin is the substitution of a methyl for an ethyl group.

Do psilocybin and psilocin work for cluster headaches? Reports say that they do. But they are scheduled, and sufferers take serious legal risks treating their condition by this approach. Perhaps these unscheduled research chemicals should be studied for their effectiveness.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Bob P on Nov 1^st, 2002, 9:38am

Thanks for your input and concern Frank. Let me know if you ever find someone to research these chemicals. We have our own members working on finding funding and facilities for research on psilocin.

You'll have to excuse my attitude in previous posts. I get kind of protective, especially when someone who doesn't have cluster headaches and no understanding of the pain they cause, comes here suggesting that I may want to try ectasy for my headaches because it helped him with a sore hip.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by pinksharkmark on Nov 1^st, 2002, 5:55pm

Thanks for the info, Floyd_F.

There was another person a while back who had suggested 5-MeO-DMT as a possibility as well. Apparently there are suppliers of research chemicals who stock it.

One question: are you sure that LSA is a scheduled compound? I had thought it was as yet unscheduled, which was why it is possible to buy Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose seeds so easily.

Several clusterheads have speculated at various times about the possible use of all of the above mentioned compounds to treat cluster headaches, but to date no one I know of has tried anything other than LSD, psilocin, and MDMA. It was very interesting to hear of your personal experiences with these compounds. I found it interesting that mescaline wasn't effective in your case, but as has been pointed out already, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work on cluster headaches.

You may eventually receive an e-mail or two from the more adventurous clusterheads interested in researching this further.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

pinky

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Linda_Howell on Nov 2^nd, 2002, 12:05pm

You said......" I did some research and discovered this site"

I'm curious as to what you typed into your search engine to find us....and why?

Linda

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Floyd_F on Nov 3^rd, 2002, 11:04pm

on 11/01/02 at 17:55:45, pinksharkmark wrote:

Thanks for the info, Floyd_F.
There was another person a while back who had suggested 5-MeO-DMT as a possibility as well. Apparently there are suppliers of research chemicals who stock it.

5-MeO-DMT might work, but it is not orally active, and my understanding is that the mental effects from vaporizing it are....extreme.

It isn't scheduled, however, perhaps on the premise that there is no likelihood that many people would want to use this material recreationally, it's just too intense.

I have no personal experience with this material.

Quote:

One question: are you sure that LSA is a scheduled compound? I had thought it was as yet unscheduled, which was why it is possible to buy Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose seeds so easily.

Yes, LSA is most definitely Schedule III, and is classified as a sedative.

Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds are legal to possess but not to consume.

Quote:

Several clusterheads have speculated at various times about the possible use of all of the above mentioned compounds to treat cluster headaches, but to date no one I know of has tried anything other than LSD, psilocin, and MDMA.

All of which are, unfortunately, Schedule I, classified as hallucinogens, and said to have "no legitimate medical use." It may be effective, but it's pretty risky.

Quote:

It was very interesting to hear of your personal experiences with these compounds. I found it interesting that mescaline wasn't effective in your case, but as has been pointed out already, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work on cluster headaches.

All of this is true. I do believe however that there is a common mechanism involved. I should explain that my hip is not just "sore," it is actually crushed to a pancake, and common pain relieving medications do next to nothing for me. I used to use a cane to walk, but now I am able to walk freely, even miles at a time, though I will still tire out on hills. And I've been able to postpone (still inevitable) surgery for at least months and possibly years.

What is going on here physiologically, in my opinion, is not a topical effect upon the damaged part of my body, but a direct effect upon the pain receptors in the brain, which I believe are tied in with the same mechanisms that cause migraines and cluster headaches. I will say that I have had infrequent migraines in my life, but not even the hint of one since I began treatment of the hip.

Previously, I've had some success in blocking migraines with 5-hydroxytryptophan as well, which is a precursor of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine). Note again how close all of these substances are to one another, chemically.

Quote:

You may eventually receive an e-mail or two from the more adventurous clusterheads interested in researching this further.

I'm glad to help if I can.

Quote:

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Considering that you brought the idea to my attention in the first place, it's the least I could do. :-)

Title: Migraines & Tryptamines
Post by Floyd_F on Nov 4^th, 2002, 12:59am

I suppose I should have said more about this before, but I feel a bit awkward discussing my infrequent and comparatively trivial migraines with people who suffer from debilitating and chronic cluster events. My hip is far more comparable on the pain scale, anyhow.

But it may be relevant to state that whenever I have had a migraine, I have typically "hallucinated through" it. That is, I will experience a LOUD rushing sound in my head, and a pounding pain which is overpowering on one side, and I will put my head down and just go into a deep and profound "dreamstate," which always includes gorgeous and full music accompanied by drums, which is like nothing I've ever heard in real life. It is never the same twice, either. The pain is present throughout, and I just let myself flow with it, until it passes, typically after ten or fifteen minutes at most.

The hallucinatory aspects of my migraines (which long preceded any chemical experimentation on my part, for the record) suggested some serotonin system involvement. Perhaps what occurs is a gradual build-up of serotonin and a subsequent cascade release which triggers the effects, both mental and physical.

In the case of cluster headache sufferers, I could guess that there is some sort of more serious blockage of the serotonin system that causes build-ups to happen with regularity, resulting in frequent extreme blow-offs.

I believe that serotonergics might be used periodically to flush this serotonin out, preventing the build-up from reaching the point of overload at which a migraine or cluster event occurs.

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Flash on Nov 4^th, 2002, 11:27am

Hi Floyd_F,

Sorry I've come into this thread quite late in the game due to RL commitments.

Thanks very much for your input. The fact that these compounds have worked for you hip is very interesting indeed since it may require re-evaluation of why they work for our head pain - if not an entire re-evalution of WTF pain actually is.

I would not have expected hallucinogens to work for anything other than vascular headaches. I must admit that I'm blown away.

Must also add that I am very impressed by your personal research on this subject. I know first hand that it takes a lot of bottle to try some of these things... especially when your in pain.

I would also like to appologise for some of the other replies to this thread. CH is very painful, but some CH sufferers are unable to believe that there are other pains out there than might just be of a similar magnitude. I can tell from your experimentation that yours must be along similar lines otherwise your wouldn 't have put in all that effort and taken all those risks. NOTE to certain CH sufferers - like I have said before if you are unwilling to take hallucinogens then it cannot possibly be all that fuckin sore. Bottom line I don't give a shit what someones religious or moral beliefs are... if your really, really, really experienced the sort of pain that some of us had then you would have resorted to hallucinogens. No question. No argument. Now if your Ch isn't painful enough to discuss the potential of non prescription drugs then proceed to the next thread, do not click reply, do not collect 12 months relief!!!!! Oh - and lay of Floyd, he's only CONTRIBUTING SOMETHING POSITIVE.

Phew.

Floyd. I'm sure I speak for others when I say that DESPITE THIS BEING A CH MB, I would very much like for you to continue updating us on your experiences. At the end of the day it's pain relief/prevention that matters most to me not syndrome snobbery.

Thanks

Flash

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Flash on Nov 4^th, 2002, 11:31am

PS on review I note that I have misused the word 'your' and should have written it "you're" meaning "your are" on at least 2 occasions. I also fucked up and typed your instead of you've. Oops. That's not normal for me but I am pushed for time. Please give me the benefit of the doubt. I promise I'm not a 'mouth breather'.

YOURS

Flash

Title: Re: Experimental research chemicals
Post by Bob P on Nov 4^th, 2002, 12:24pm

Hi Flash,

I certainly hope you are not appologizing for my posts to Floyd and his hip because:

1. You don't speak for me.
2. I am perfectly capable of appologizing on my own behalf.
3. I offer no appology to Floyd.

Certainly is intersting though. Since the theory was the hallucinogens, working on 5HT sites, somehow reset the serotonin regulation in the hypo. Makes ya want to run out and see if 5HT is actually involved in pain generation/transmission at all.

Keep us posted on anything ya all find.

Thanks guys.