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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2002 >> Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 1
        
(Message started by: pinksharkmark on Feb 14^th, 2002, 11:50am)

Title: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 1
Post by pinksharkmark on Feb 14^th, 2002, 11:50am

Bob Wold recently posted an update on the treatment of his cluster headaches with psilocybin, in the form of "magic mushrooms".

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/134515.html

From some of the responses to his post, it is apparent that there is still some confusion regarding the proper use of this therapy. I posted a reply clarifying things. This is a repost of that reply.

After reading some of the spectacular success stories that many have reported from a single small dose of psilocybin (or LSD), it is easy to lose sight of the fact that psilocybin is just another medication, and in order to successfully treat cluster headaches with psilocybin certain rules must be followed, just as is the case with all medications.

According to the reports posted on this message board, the majority of those who have had success with psilocybin mushrooms obtained complete and lasting relief from a single small dose. But that doesn't guarantee that every clusterhead on the planet will get the same results from a single dose. Some (such as Bob Wold) required more than one dose to achieve complete remission.

It is also true that many have gotten complete relief with very low amounts, barely enough to notice any effects at all, much less any psychoactive effects. But others have required larger amounts, sometimes bordering on what is considered a "recreational" dose.

A few have achieved no relief at all, regardless of the dosage and the frequency of ingestion.

Just as with any other medication, it is essential to refrain from taking medications that interfere with the action of psilocybin. This is not always easy to accomplish. Many "blocking" drugs are known and have been listed here on numerous occasions. But there are medications commonly taken by clusterheads whose interaction with psilocybin is still unknown. Some may intensify the effect, others may block it, still others may have no effect one way or the other. As more reports are received, more medications to be avoided will be identified.

Note that the above statements apply to every other preventative medication in the clusterhead arsenal. Let's use Verapamil, the "gold standard" of CH preventatives, as an example.

Verapamil can be effective in doses ranging from roughly 240 mg per day to a maximum of 960 mg per day. So, just like psilocybin, the effective dosage varies from person to person. For a few people, the effects of Verapamil are noticeable within a few days of starting treatment. For the majority, however, a week or two of daily (sometimes increasing) doses is required for the medication to start working. So again, just like psilocybin, some people require more doses than others do before the medication starts to take effect. For a sizeable percentage of people (roughly 30% according to available studies) Verapamil has no effect on their CH at all. And, just like psilocybin, there are other medications that cannot be taken while on Verapamil.

I could repeat the above paragraph many more times, substituting for Verapamil any other preventative medication currently used for treating cluster headaches.

But the most interesting thing that differentiates psilocybin (and LSD) from other CH medications is that it does not just abort a single attack (like Imitrex, Cafergot, or oxygen), and it also does not just prevent an attack from occuring as long as serum levels are high enough (like Sansert, Verapamil, Lithium, Prednisone, Depakote, Neurontin, Topamax, et al), but it actually terminates the entire CH "cycle" for an extended period of time -- long after all traces of it have vanished from the body. In the case of some chronics this period may be as short as two weeks. In the case of episodics, this period may be as long as a year.

The only other treatments I know of that will produce an actual termination of a CH cycle are prednisone (rarely), DHE injections (occasionally) and intravenous magnesium (occasionally).

In your own case, Bob P, you did everything correctly for at least the first dose of psilocybin. That first dose didn't terminate your cycle, and the attacks were getting more severe, so you (understandably) started a course of prednisone, knowing that it had helped you in the past. It is possible that the prednisone blocked the action of the subsequent doses of psilocybin. It is also possible that you are an individual for whom psilocybin is ineffective, prednisone or no prednisone, just as I am an individual for whom Verapamil is ineffective. There is no way of knowing for sure which is the case.

Part 2 to follow

Title: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 2
Post by pinksharkmark on Feb 14^th, 2002, 12:21pm

...continued

As more reports are received, some facts are becoming apparent:

1) The most effective use of psilocybin is as a prophylactic. If taken before a CH cycle is due to start, the cycle will not start. This of course is an option not available to chronic clusterheads.

2) The second most effective use of psilocybin is to take it at the very beginning of a cycle, before the cycle is firmly established, and while the individual is still free of other medications. Again, an option for episodic clusterheads only.

3) Once a cycle is firmly established, it may be necessary to take higher initial doses, and more than one dose may be required to terminate the cycle. This is the case with many chronic clusterheads, and with some episodics. These are also the cases where the factor of interactions with other medications become problematical. It is a rare chronic indeed who is completely free of preventative medications, and any episodic who has made it to this stage of a cycle with no medication at all has my utmost respect.

4) It is impossible to determine precisely how large the first dose of mushrooms should be for any given individual. It's not as if psilocybin is available in pill form containing a known number of milligrams... we are dealing with a natural substance that is subject to the vagaries of nature. The psilocybin content of each batch of mushrooms will vary, sometimes substantially. And, just as with Verapamil or Lithium or Topamax or any other medication, the sensitivity to psilocybin varies from one individual to another. The amount required for subsequent doses becomes much easier to determine, but for the first dose many individuals are (understandably) choosing to underdose.

Anyone who is considering this treatment must accept the possibility that two or even more doses may be required. It is also possible that some individuals may have to put up with some short-lived (a few hours) psychoactive side effects in order to achieve success.

There is an equivalent of the "Kip Scale" that is commonly accepted by "recreational" users to measure the effects of a dose of mushrooms:

Level 1
This level produces a mild "stoning" effect, with some visual enhancement (i.e. brighter colors, etc). Some short term memory anomalies. Left/right brain communication changes causing music to sound "wider".

Level 2
Brighter colors, and some subtle visual anomalies (i.e. objects appear to slightly shift position or "breathe"), some 2 dimensional patterns become apparent upon shutting eyes. Confused or reminiscent thoughts. Change of short term memory leads to distractive thought patterns. Vast increase in creativity becomes apparent as the natural brain filter is bypassed.

Level 3
Very obvious visual distortions: everything looking curved and/or warped, patterns and kaleidoscopes seen on walls, faces etc. Some mild hallucinations such as rivers flowing in wood grained or "mother of pearl" surfaces. Closed eye images become 3 dimensional. There is some confusion of the senses (i.e. seeing sounds as colors, etc). Time distortions and "moments of eternity".

Level 4
Strong hallucinations, i.e. objects morphing into other objects. Destruction or multiple splitting of the ego. (Things start talking to you, or you find that you are feeling contradictory things simultaneously). Some loss of reality. Time becomes meaningless. Out of body experiences and e.s.p. type phenomena. Blending of the senses.

Level 5
Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego. Merging with space, other objects, or the universe. The loss of reality becomes so severe that it defies explanation. The earlier levels are relatively easy to explain in terms of measureable changes in perception and thought patterns. This level is different in that the actual universe within which things are normally perceived ceases to exist. Satori enlightenment (and other such labels).

Most episodic clusterheads will need to achieve somewhere around a Level 1 or Level 1.5 experience in order to terminate their cycle. A few episodics have had success at even lower levels, but a few have had to reach Level 2.

Most chronic clusterheads will need to take enough to achieve a Level 1.5 or Level 2 experience. In particularly stubborn cases, even higher doses may be required. CarlD, for example, reported a few months of painfree time after reaching (from his brief description) Level 3.

more to come...

Title: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 3
Post by pinksharkmark on Feb 14^th, 2002, 1:24pm

...continued

Despite the fact that there is considerable variability in both mushroom potency and individual sensitivity to psilocybin, some rough guidelines have emerged that give some help in determining how large the first dose of mushrooms should be.

It should be noted that unlike alcohol, the effects of psilocybin (or LSD) seem not to be dependent on an individual's weight or percentage of body fat. This makes our task somewhat easier.

Almost all "black market" mushrooms being sold today are of the species Psilocybe cubensis. In Europe this species is sometimes called Stropharia cubensis. The main reason why they are so popular is that Psilocybe cubensis is extremely easy to cultivate indoors. Recent developments in home cultivation methods have made it something that an eight year old child could do with no difficulty. There are other species which may sometimes be encountered on the black market that are more potent than Psilocybe cubensis, but it is rare indeed that they become available. Clusterheads who grow their own are all growing Psilocybe cubensis, so I will discuss dosage levels for that species only.

Even when discussing a single species, there are many factors that determine the potency of a given batch of a mushrooms, not all of which are under the control of the cultivator, so bear in mind that the figures given below are only guidelines, and not cast in stone. Your mileage may vary.

All the doses given below are expressed by weight, in grams (1.0 gram = 1000 milligrams) because it is impossible to correctly measure a dose of Psilocybe cubensis in terms of the number of mushrooms. Individual dried mushrooms can weigh as little as 20 milligrams, and as much as 2.5 grams. The only way to accurately measure a dose is by weight. The numbers I give are also for thoroughly dried mushrooms -- "cracker-dry" is the term most often used. They should be crisp and will snap and crumble easily. If they are leathery and "bendable", they must be further dried before weighing, or the dose will be effectively smaller than it should be due to excess water content.

For the average individual who is completely free of all other medications which may interfere with the action of psilocybin, it will be necessary to take 1.0 to 1.5 grams of thoroughly dried Psilocybe cubensis of average potency in order to achieve a Level 1 experience.

For a Level 2 experience, somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5 grams is normally required. For Level 3, a dose of roughly 3.5 grams or more will be required. From the reports we have seen so far from numerous clusterheads, it does not seem that reaching levels higher than Level 3 gives any additional benefit.

I must repeat that there may be the occasional individual who is exceptionally susceptible to psilocybin who has obtained an exceptionally potent batch of mushrooms and takes 1.0 gram, yet reaches as much as a Level 2 experience. On the other hand, there may be another individual who is exceptionally resistant to psilocybin who has obtained an exceptionally weak batch of mushrooms and takes 3.5 grams, only to barely reach Level 1. Neither case is the norm, but neither case is unheard of, either, particularly the latter.

The final factor that will influence the effect of a given dose of psilocybin (or LSD) is interaction with other medications. This is an area where we are still learning, but some interactions are well-known and will be discussed next.

...to be continued

Title: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 4
Post by pinksharkmark on Feb 14^th, 2002, 3:27pm

...continued

When it comes to interactions with other medications, we are faced with a significant challenge. Virtually all clinical research into the effects of psilocybin and LSD ceased in the early 1970's, when they were criminalized in the United States. In theory it is still possible to obtain a research license allowing experimentation with these and other Schedule 1 compounds, but in practice the complexity and inertia of the governmental approval process is so overwhelming that very few researchers have the stamina to see it through to the end. As a result, there are few studies to refer to regarding interaction with drugs in existence before 1971, and no clinical information at all on drugs developed since then.

However, there are some medications which are known to reduce or eliminate entirely the effectiveness of psilocybin (and LSD).

1) All ergot compounds, such as ergotamine, Sansert (methysergide), cafergot, DHE 45 (di-hydro ergotamine), methergine, to name the ones most commonly used in treating CH.

2) First-generation anti-psychotics such as Thorazine.

3) Opiates and synthetic opiates, such as codeine, oxycontin, heroin, morphine, tramadol, methadone, demerol, laudanum, opium, and others. It is still unclear whether these compounds will reduce the effectiveness of psilocybin in treating cluster headaches, but it is well known that opiate addicts get less "high" on mushrooms and LSD than non-addicts will.

There are also medications that will increase the effects of psilocybin (and LSD):

1) A class of compounds known as MAOIs (monoamine oxydase inhibitors). There are few MAOIs being prescribed today. Most have been replaced by newer-generation compounds, but there are still a few in use, mainly for psychiatric conditions.

2) Lithium. Lithium has the same effect as an MAOI. It has been reported by several "recreational" users of psilocybin and LSD that Lithium will roughly double the psychoactive effects of a given dose of psilocybin (or LSD). It is unclear whether it will also double the CH-fighting properties, but we have one report from a clusterhead who deliberately took some Lithium immediately before ingesting mushrooms and had a much more intense experience for a few hours than he had bargained for. In his case, the psilocybin also killed the headaches, but it is probable that he would have achieved the same relief with less stress.

3) Dissociative anesthetics such as ketamine, PCP (phencyclidine) and DXM (dextromethorphan).

There are medications that we suspect will interfere with the action of psilocybin (or LSD):

1) Any of the triptans, such as Imitrex, Amerge, Zomig, Maxalt. These compounds are chemically quite similar to psilocybin. For example, Imitrex (sumatriptan) is basically sulfonated DMT (di-methyl tryptamine) while psilocybin is phosphorylated DMT.

2) Any of various serotonergic medications classified as SSRIs (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) and Tri-Cyclic antidepressants. This covers a number of medications sometimes used to treat CH: amitryptaline and nortryptaline, Zyprexa (olanzapine), Depakote (divalproex sodium), to name a few

There are some medications which may interfere with psilocybin (and LSD):

1) anti-convulsants or anti-epileptic medications such as Neurontin (gabapentin) and Topamax (topiramate). The exact mechanism by which topiramate works, for example, is still unknown, so it is impossible to even guess whether or not it will interfere with psilocybin.

2) medications which are either synthetic analogs of certain hormones or which regulate hormone production: Prednisone and Synthroid, for example. There is no direct evidence to suggest that these drugs will interact with psilocybin, but hormones have a very complex and inter-related effect on numerous body systems. We have seen a few reports on this message board suggesting that thyroid levels play a part in cluster headaches.

3) tranquilizers and mood-altering medications such as Xanax, Valium, Prozac and Wellbutrin.

There are medications which will probably not interfere with the actions of psilocybin:

1) antibiotics

2) NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) such as tylenol (acetaminophen), aspirin, ibuprofen, Vioxx (rofecoxib), etc.

3) antacids and anti-ulcer medications

4) asthma medications

5) insulin

It must be noted that the above category reflects my personal opinions. I have seen no reports of interactions with these medications, and I suspect that the mechanisms by which these medications act is too different from the action by which psilocybin and LSD work for there to be any significant interaction, but I wouldn't want to bet my life's savings on it.

...still more to come

Title: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part 5
Post by pinksharkmark on Feb 14^th, 2002, 4:19pm

...continued

Finally, there are the Calcium Channel Blockers. The most popular CCB used by clusterheads is verapamil. We have received reports of clusterheads achieving complete success with psilocybin while taking verapamil. I have also seen reports from chronics whose only medication at the time of their psilocybin trials was verapamil, who failed to get any significant relief. Was this lack of success due to interaction with verapamil? I don't know. I am open to argument on this one.

Verapamil does act on a certain subgroup of serotonin receptors, but it appears not to be the same subgroup that psilocybin and LSD act on. For the moment, I will tentatively classify the CCBs as a category of medications that may not completely block the action of psilocybin, at least for some individuals. I reserve the right to change that opinion as more data becomes available.

There is one more interaction that must be taken into consideration... the self-limiting factor of psilocybin and LSD themselves. This well-documented but still unexplained property of these substances is the reason why consecutive doses must be taken at well-spaced intervals, rather than day after day. It is also why psilocybin and LSD are classified as "counter-addictive". Flash calls this self-limiting process "shutting the door".

One of the first things that a molecule of psilocin (psilocybin is converted into psilocin as soon as it enters the bloodstream. It is actually psilocin that produces the effect, not psilocybin) will do when it nestles snuggly into its chosen synaptic cleft is to trigger a reaction in the receptor site that "shuts the door" behind it. Not only does the door shut on the sites that contain psilocin molecules already, but on all other sites anywhere in the brain that are capable of accepting similar molecules. This process is not instantaneous, but it does take place fairly rapidly... maybe over twenty minutes or half an hour or so.

This is why dosing with mushrooms or LSD is an "all or nothing" thing. With alcohol or marijuana, if you think you are not yet where you want to be, you can have another beer or another joint, and another and another. But psilocybin and LSD take time to produce their full effect... sometimes as much as an hour or even longer from the time you take them till the time they start to work. By the time you discover that you have underdosed, it is too late to do anything about it. You will have to wait until next time around to adjust the dose. If you take some more immediately, it is a complete waste of medicine, since by the time the new batch of molecules make it to your brain, all the doors are firmly shut.

These doors remain shut until all the molecules of psilocin or LSD have broken down (around 12 to 20 hours) and then the doors gradually start to re-open. This is why veteran "acidheads" back in the 1960s would only dose once a week or so. Some individuals can dose with only a three day break, others need as much as week. A good compromise for clusterheads is about five days.

This door-shutting mechanism precludes the use of any other hallucinogen for that given period of time. That is to say, if you take some mushrooms Friday night, then take some LSD on Saturday night, the LSD will have no effect at all. Methysergide (Sansert) and other ergot compounds such as ergotamine and di-hydro ergotamine (DHE) will also shut the door. Due to the marked similarity between the various triptans (Imitrex, Amerge, etc.) and psilocybin, it is likely that they will also shut the door for at least as long as they remain in the body, and probably for some period of time after that.

Bottom line... it is essential to wait 4 or 5 days between mushroom doses, and to avoid all other known "blocking" medications during that time as well.

In conclusion, I would like to point out that although psilocybin has by far the highest reported success rate of any preventative medication we currently know of, we do still get reports of occasional failures. Since we are unlikely to see any clinical study of psilocybin and cluster headaches in the near future, our only source of data is from the reports of those who have tried it.

I urge everyone who has tried this therapy, successfully or not, whether with psilocybin or LSD or some other psychoactive substance, to post their stories here, giving as much detail as possible, particularly in regards to other medications being used at the same time. If you wish to retain your anonymity, post under a different name, or send your report directly to me so I can repost it as an "anonymous" report from "Patient X". I have no doubt that once we have a better grasp of which medications do in fact reduce the effects of these substances, the success rate will be even higher.

For all those who have tried this therapy and reported their experiences, especially Flash, the man who got the ball rolling with his first post back in 1998, and Ueli, who painstakingly compiled all these reports from the CH.com message board and archived them here (see "Message Board Posts")...

http://www.a-dzign.com/shrooms/

...my sincerest thanks. Thanks as well to all those who created and contributed to the page linked above. And, to all those who have read this series of posts from start to finish, I thank you for your patience.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Ike on Feb 14^th, 2002, 8:51pm

:P You da' man!!
Thanks Pinky.

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Monique on Feb 15^th, 2002, 9:25pm

Pinky You're My Hero ;D

Between you and Flash there is a mountain of information available already and what you have just written here, in between writting back to me with all my dumb questions... WOW, you are amazing! You should compile it all and write a book and sell it in the OUCH store.

Thanks Pinky. Especially for all your help today.
THE NEW SHROOM FARMER! :)

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by August on Feb 20^th, 2002, 2:49am

Thanks Pinky for giving your time to putting this out for everyone!

Good work,

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Becca on Feb 20^th, 2002, 8:11am

Wow! Thanks for the enlightenment - this will definitely put us off the mushroom course, I think!

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Margi on Feb 20^th, 2002, 8:53am

I don't understand your post, Becca. WHY would all this that Pinky has said, put you off the mushroom course? It's the treatment that has the highest success to date. I'm confused... :-/

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Becca on Feb 20^th, 2002, 10:17am

Well, I can't speak for anyone but me, and I don't have the cluster headaches, at least not first-handedly, in this family. If my Clusterhead ever feels like trying mushroom therapy I would probably not argue with him about it.
Its the "mushroom Kip scale" that made me squeamish! Those don't appeal to me as positive effects.
So far, he has yet to try the conventional and clinically approved stuff. Bill's been getting through his attacks all these years with very little assist from doctors or pharmacy. He's pretty conservative, and a bit of a stoic. It's only been recently that he would wake me up or even mention the attack in the morning, and he has yet to miss a day of work after one. I have sometimes wondered if a tendency toward being a "work-a-holic" is common in CHers?

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Margi on Feb 20^th, 2002, 10:45am

Yeah, I think the workaholic syndrome comes from the fact that attacks quite often happen upon relaxation.

And, just a word to the shroom fears...my hubby has used this treatment effectively a few times and the side-effects were quite negligible. They seem to need very little of the substance in their systems to make a difference. Plus, any side effects that did hit were gone in less than six hours. Way less worrisome than the
side effects of some of the legal drugs, if you ask me.

Imitrex, although it does abort some attacks for Mike, causes his heart to beat faster and it caused a heart attack for Monique's hubby. The list of long-term side effects from some of these meds is WAY scarier than the temporary feeling the mushrooms produce, in my opinion. But this treatment plan IS definitely a personal and moral choice that is your husband's and yours alone to make.

Title: Dosage and effects
Post by pinksharkmark on Feb 20^th, 2002, 1:13pm

on 02/20/02 at 08:11:27, Becca wrote:

Wow! Thanks for the enlightenment - this will definitely put us off the mushroom course, I think!

As I said at the very beginning, psilocybin is no different from any other medication. The larger the dose, the more noticeable the side effects. At least with psilocybin the "overdose" will not be fatal.

I was very careful to indicate the approximate level that most people need to reach in order to terminate a cycle. I was also careful to state that there seems to be no additional benefit in reaching the higher levels.

Taking a gram and a half of Psilocybe cubensis and spending a few hours listening to some good music is no more distressing than having a few beers and watching a football game.

The difference between taking 1.5 grams of mushrooms and taking 10 or 12 grams of mushrooms is like the difference between sipping a glass of wine and chugging a bottle and a half of overproof rum. I certainly would never recommend EITHER course of action.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by sjoerd on Feb 20^th, 2002, 3:19pm

Hi Pinky,

Thanks for your important notes on the shrooms therapy. As you know I was till last summer a chronic clusterhead, with about 8 attacks per day.
Thanks to the shrooms I don't know wether I am chronic or episodic. I use mushrooms once in three or four weeks. I need about 4 mgrs to get to level 2, sometimes a bit of 3. I don't know why but I have to get each time a little bit more to reach the same level.
After I used the shrooms there are about four or five days in which I have a small attack. Mostly at the end of the day, 6 or 7 pm. Than I am for more than a week, sometimes 2 weeks completely painfree (I am medicinefree from last year may) In week 3 or 4 there are coming shadows and after one severe attack (8 to 10 scale) I am on shrooms again. I tried to lower the dose, but that didn't work. I hope one day I also don't have to use the shrooms, but this mushroom therapy worked for me the best so far and I thank you and Flash for all your good work.

This this therapy also work for migraine sufferers?

Thanks

Sjoerd :)

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Margi on Feb 20^th, 2002, 4:08pm

actually, Sjoerd, the answer is 'yes' to your migraine question. Just the simple act of grinding up the tea for my husband has caused my own migraine symptoms to go into remission - now for almost 5 months. I didn't even drink any of it - just absorbed it through my fingertips. Just made me a little queasy for about half an hour and a slightly strange feeling, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I felt those symptoms coming back.

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Margi on Feb 20^th, 2002, 4:19pm

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by nancyc on Feb 21^st, 2002, 10:39pm

Excellent post, Pink! You know I believe in the shrooms...all this info will be very helpful to anyone thinking about trying this treatment....Thanks for all your work...you are the best...smiles,nancyc

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Elissa on Mar 17^th, 2002, 8:24am

Pinky, I read your article and WOW..tons of info. I used the shrooms when I lived overseas (purely recretational of course!) and I know the affects of them, but I don't understand, if this treatment seems to work so well for people, why isn't it approved? There are so many other drugs out there that are legal and have horrible side effects and you have to get your liver and all tested to make sure that isn't damaged...but the natural stuff they won't approve. (is it me?!) I think I will hang onto this and start my own little "garden". When I'm ready I may need some help so I'll be posting. Thanks again, you and the others put a lot of work into this....the one person was right, you should write a book! Hell, at lest make some money off of the damn headaches! ELissa

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 17^th, 2002, 7:15pm

on 03/17/02 at 08:24:59, Elissa wrote:

The DEA added LSD and psilocybin to the list of "Schedule 1 Controlled Substances" for reasons of their own. No one has been able to explain why. The definition of a Schedule 1 substance (I may have a word or two misplaced here, but the sense is accurate) is "one for which there is no known medical application and which exhibits a high potential for abuse.

Observe that the DEA ignored the numerous studies done showing LSD is effective in treating migraines, and other studies showing its value in the field of psychiatry for various conditions such as alcohol addiction, obssessive-compulsive disorder, and bi-polar disorder, as well as social problems such as criminal recidivism.

Also observe that virtually every paper published on LSD and psilocybin emphasizes their unique properties of cross-tolerance and self-limitation -- the well-known fact that if you take one one day, taking one the next day produces no effect or very little effect. A "recharging" period of several days or a week is required between doses. This attribute is one that makes them unlikely candidates for "abuse", whatever THAT may be.

My personal opinion is that even if we were somehow able to persuade clinicians or pharmaceutical companies to perform extensive studies on the use of LSD and psilocybin for treating cluster headaches, the DEA would not budge. These drugs would STILL not be available via prescription. My basis for this opinion is their incredibly pig-headed attitude towards marijuana, despite the overwhelming evidence that for many medical conditions (not cluster headaches, though) marijuana IS of medical benefit -- in fact, for some conditions it is the ONLY known medication that provides relief.

Dr. Alexander Shulgin is perhaps the most knowledgeable authority on the psychedelics on the planet. He has synthesized and tested almost two hundred different psychoactive compounds. Here is what he has to say on the War on Drugs:

http://www.theantidrug.org/advice/shulginuniv.html

It is a fairly long speech, but well worth reading. Right at the end he reads a letter from a young writer that I found eloquent, logical, and irrefutable:

Is it any wonder that laws prohibiting the use of psychoactive drugs have been traditionally ignored? The monstrous ego (or stupidity!) of a person or group of persons, to believe that they or anyone else have the right, or the jurisdiction, to police the inside of my body, or my mind!
It is, in fact, so monstrous a wrong that, were it not so sad indeed, tragic!—it might be humorous.
All societies must, it seems, have a structure of laws, of orderly rules and regulations. Only the most hard-core, fanatical anarchist would argue that point. But I, as a responsible, adult human being, will never concede the power, to anyone, to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inward is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the Customs Agent. I am the Coast Guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual Government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable!!!
Now, were I to be guilty of invading or sabotaging that same territory in others, then the external law of the Nation has every right—indeed, the responsibility—to prosecute me in the agreed-upon manner.
But what I think? Where I focus my awareness? What biochemical reactions I choose to cause within the territorial boundaries of my own skin are not subject to the beliefs, morals, laws or preferences of any other person!
I am a sovereign state, and I feel that my borders are far more sacred than the politically drawn boundaries of any country.

*****************************************************

Note that this young man is defending his use of these substances strictly on moral grounds, not out of medical necessity. How much more impact would these words have if spoken by a clusterhead?

I only wish I had said it first.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by justin on Mar 18^th, 2002, 3:14pm

well i went to amsterdam and tried the shrooms. i tried about a little more than a quarter dose of the mexican variety. to be honest i really do not enjoy the effects. it was somewhere between a level one and level 2 high. i am just not a drug person i guess. i get really anxious and nervous and just don't like feeling out of control. i'm pretty sure i won't do it again. anyway..the headaches. well here's the problem - after two weeks of non stop attacks , 2 a day. i went to amsterdam and decided to lower my verapamil a bit. i was taking 480mg a day and droped down to 320mg. i just didn't like the side effects (dizy, etc.) so anyway, ididn't get an attack the next two days. so then i did the shrooms my last day because i figured i wouldn't get another opportunity. well no headaches since. but it's only been a day. just won't really be able to tell if it was the change in verapamil or the shrooms. guess i'm no help...sorry. but thanks for all the advice. glad i tried it once.
jd

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by rick on Mar 18^th, 2002, 8:37pm

My first post on this site. I would like to start by thanking pinksharkmark for doing the homework and taking the time to put all this info together. I just had a couple of questions, answers to either of them would be appreciated: When consuming the mushrooms, is it better to make them into tea or does it make a difference how you take them? If I am able to reach "level one" while on depakote or doxepin, can I assume that these drugs are not interfering with the beneficial effects of the shrooms?

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Lee on Mar 19^th, 2002, 1:10am

Bob Wold and I go way back, B-4 ch.com was conceived. Bob is an expert in this subject and I agree with most of his thoughts. I have done the acid deal and it doe's work for a while, but like any thing else we try it's the same story.

Let us find an answer, permanent that is, without gun powder.

Lee
::)

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 19^th, 2002, 1:43am

on 03/18/02 at 20:37:51, rick wrote:

When consuming the mushrooms, is it better to make them into tea or does it make a difference how you take them?

Many people feel that the heat involved in making the tea destroys some of the psilocybin/psilocin in the mushrooms being used, making it necessary to start with a bit more mushrooms in order to compensate for the loss. Others say it makes no difference whatsoever. There are two reasons why some prefer tea:

1) The mushrooms have a rather unpleasant taste. The tea will have a less strong taste to it than the mushrooms themselves do.

2) A small minority of users find that the mushrooms produce mild gastric distress, gas, and even nausea. These effects are minimized if the psilocybin is taken as a tea rather than eating the entire mushroom.

Most people just dice up the dried mushrooms into fairly small pieces and toss them in a blender with some orange juice or cranberry juice to make a mushroom "smoothie". If you prefer to make tea, check this link:

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/wwwboard/messages2/110213.html

Quote:

If I am able to reach "level one" while on depakote or doxepin, can I assume that these drugs are not interfering with the beneficial effects of the shrooms?

Very astute question. I no of know one who can answer it with confidence.

Before we get into that, however, let's address a couple of points.

1) You will be more likely to have success if you reach a "Level 1.5" to "Level 2" experience. It is true that some have had spectacular success at Level 1, (and a few at even LESS than that) but the majority seem to have better luck with slightly higher doses.

2) How big a dose is required to reach "Level 1" while on those meds? If it takes just 1.0 or 1.5 grams, it is pretty safe to assume that the meds are not blocking the effects. But if it takes 6 or 8 grams to reach that level, you can be certain that there is some interaction going on there.

From the experiences of our intrepid experimenters, it is clear that the "higher" one gets (up to a point) from the psilocybin/psilocin, the more likely it is that the treatment will be successful. This would SEEM to indicate that one of the side-effects of the "high" is that it kills the cluster cycle. Therefore, it would appear sensible to conclude that if a medication blocks the psychoactive effects, it will also block the "cluster-busting" effects.

But is that necessarily what is happening? Is it possible the two effects are separate aspects of the same chemical?

It is known that the psychedelics work on more than one subgroup of 5-HT receptors. Is it possible that one subclass of those receptor sites mediates the psychedelic response, with a different subclass mediating the cluster-buster response? I don't know. IF this is in fact the case, then it stands to reason that some medications MIGHT block one subgroup, but not the other.

So, it is not unreasonable to speculate that some meds might allow you to get "high" while leaving the CH untouched, while other meds might block the psychedelic effects completely, yet the still stop the CH dead in its tracks.

My opinion is that the 5-HT receptors that produce the "high" when influenced by psilocybin are the same ones that tell the hypothalamus to "reset" itself and stop the CH cycle. But I will freely admit that my opinion may be proven incorrect.

This is the reason I have always recommended that those wishing to try psilocybin/psilocin or LSD should try to be as free as possible from ALL medications that are either known to inhibit the psychoactive effects or are strongly suspected of doing so -- we simply don't have enough information available to us to be able to say with certainty what all the possible permutations of the various interactions might be.

I realize this presents some experimenters with a difficult choice: try to make it through several days of unmedicated attacks in the hopes that the psilocybin will work, or continue with the medications and hope those meds won't destroy the chance of the psilocybin working.

For a clusterhead whose current meds are useless or just barely effective, the choice is pretty easy -- stop the meds and try the shrooms. What have you got to lose? For an episodic whose current meds are working just fine, the choice is also easy -- ride out the cycle on the current meds and try the mushrooms at the first warning signs of the next cycle, or even earlier.

But not all situations are as clear cut as the above two examples. What should a chronic (who can't really wait for the next cycle because life is one long cycle) do, for example, or an episodic who is getting partial relief from some meds, or someone who is getting pain relief from an existing medication, but at the cost of some pretty heavy side effects?

If we KNEW the mushrooms would work for every single individual who was in the middle of a cycle but 100% med free, it would be easier to say to people in the above situations, "Hang tough! It might be a rough few days but it will be worth it." But we DON'T know that. I, for example, am a complete wimp when it comes to these things. I honestly don't know if I could go four or five days at the peak of my cycle (4 to 5 CH per day at Kip 7 - 9) without reaching for a Fiorinal or an Imitrex, even I KNEW WITH CERTAINTY that the mushrooms would end my cyle.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Flash on Mar 19^th, 2002, 8:05am

The way I see it in straightforward terms:

If two medications both affect CH, then the chances are that they will also affect each other, albeit only slightly.

I concur with pinky that:

If the existing meds aren't helping then stop taking the meds for a week then ingest the hallucinogen. Otherwise it is best to ride out the current episode and then ingest shrooms prior to the next episode.

Don't get sucked into does or doesn't it react... the bottom line is that we don't know, and probably never will. In most cases it probably does react in some way.

Also, it is important to understand that hallucinogens are not a complimentary therapy. People will stick with pred or O2 for weeks or months on end even though they aren't working. By the same token those people will make a single half assed attempt at hallucinogens then coming back moaning that they didn't work!

Anyone planning to take hallucinogens:

1) Read EVERYTHING.

2) Ask questions regarding anything that isn't clear. The advice we give now differs from what we would have said 4 years ago because we are better informed.

3) Prior planning. Get hold of enough shrooms for 5 clear goes.

4) Detox from everything. OR wait until your next episode.

5) Do them exactly as described - do not restart any other medication during this period, be warned the process may take anything up to a month especially for chronics, although most people get relief from a single dose.

6) Be aware that things occasionally get worse before they get better.

Flash

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Flash on Mar 19^th, 2002, 8:09am

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by RichardN on Mar 19^th, 2002, 9:06am

BRAVO.......BRAVO !!! tHANK YOU Pinky - --for the info and real effort that went into the above. Am seeking source (don't think will be a problem - - - take some time though) Do you know if there are any negatives regarding the heart? I am taking 120 mg Verapamil (1 mo now) - - - was on attenelol 4 mos (no help). I have high cholesterol and frequent chest pains - - -doc won't prescribe Imitrex without stress test and that precaution has been supported by this site (til I found this site, I thought he may have assumed I was some crazed drug-fiend looking for a fix). Am scheduling same today and requesting Rx for med. oxygen - - - also increase in Verap dosage. Am 1st time chronic (1yr+), 55 yrs old. Thank you - - -damn, you guys are good! :) be well, Richard

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 19^th, 2002, 3:18pm

on 03/19/02 at 08:09:39, Flash wrote:

Don't get sucked into does or doesn't it react... the bottom line is that we don't know, and probably never will. In most cases it probably does react in some way.

Umm... While I agree with most of Flash's post, I believe that this is an area that leaves a bit of "wiggle room" for those hardy souls who wish to act as guinea pigs.

It is true that we may never find out ALL of the "cluster meds" that don't interfere with the action of psilocybin/psilocin or LSD, but I do believe there may be SOME that don't. For example, I think it unlikely that oxygen inhalation would make any difference. I still WANT to believe that in some cases in certain individuals low doses of Verapamil MAY not completely prevent the mushrooms from working their magic, but I admit the Verapamil thing may just be stubbornness on my part.

I agree with Flash that pretty much all of the rest of the meds in our arsenal will interact to at least some degree, since all the others work by tinkering with one neurotransmitter or another... serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine, etc. Also, we must remember that sometimes people are taking meds for conditions other than CH that will interfere with the action of the psychedelics.

If someone wants to try taking psilocybin/psilocin or LSD while taking these other meds concurrently, it will at least provide us with some more data (most likely negative data, but data nonetheless), but with the very real risk that the experimenter will be wasting his/her time and mushrooms.

If you want to give it a shot anyway, I say go ahead, but DON'T be disappointed if it makes no difference to your CH -- you were warned in advance that the chances of success were slim. All the data accumulated so far supports the conclusion that psychedelics work best when taken by themselves... NO other accompanying meds.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by rick on Mar 20^th, 2002, 6:40am

Pinky & Flash,
I am going to be a Guinea pig. I am currently in my 3rd bout, they develop every 2.4 years, and last about 3.5 months. This one, however, has lasted 4 months and a day so far. I have spent a lot of time taking care of myself and living a healthy lifestyle in preparation for this one. This seems to have made a difference for my case at least. In previous bouts I had two attacks a day. This time I have for the most part had only one a day, and even experienced 2-3 days at a time without even a shadow. I eat well, and I had been working out regularly.
When the bout began, I started receiving accupuncture and chiropractic treatments 3-4 times a week. I was using Imitrex(50mg tablets) and Amerge to deal with the attacks. Imitrex would work for about a week and then fail. Amerge worked great... and then would cause hellish rebounds after 3-4 days. I did two seperate tapering cycles of Methylprednisolone, each lasting 6 days, and had only one headache during each cycle.
I stopped the chiropractic and accupuncture treatments 1 month ago (a lot of $$$$ without stopping the cycle), and saw a neuro who put me on:

1. Doxepin=25mgs first 5 days, 50mgs indefinitely.

2. Depakote=500mgs to start in 3 days, then indefinitely.

3. Prednisone=50mgs tapering down to 5 after 25 days.

4. Amerge=2.5mgs, use as needed, no more than once every 4
days.

5. Lidocaine=patches, USELESS!!!

6. Oxygen=haven't picked up my tank yet.

Anyway, headaches stopped! That is, until my prednisone dosage began to taper downward.
About 2 weeks ago, shadows started coming back, getting progressively stronger. Three out of the last four days I have had attacks, also becoming progressively stronger. The first two were about 5's on the Kip scale. Today I got popped with a 7. Bad trend. This past Saturday, I woke up with the first one, and had a lingering shadow all day. Saturday night, I sprinkled some uncooked mushroom bits into cooked pasta. I definitely reached level one, felt GREAT all night, and good all day Sunday. I don't know, unfortunately, exactly how much I took, as I don't have a scale (I'll be looking for one tomorrow). It was a small amount though.
I have one problem in trying this therapy free of meds at the moment. Their are two doctors looking after me. One of them happens to be one of my parents, and would actually be very understanding about what I want to attempt. Unfortunately, for a variety of personal reasons, now is not the right time to bring it up. Beyond that, I REALLY want to do my homework on the matter before I discuss it.
As of right now, I am continuing with the Depakote and Doxepin. I have however not begun taking Topomax, which has since been prescribed to me, for the very reason that I want to attempt the mushroom therapy. When I got hit with the cluster today, I took nothing and toughed it out. Two Aleve actually did the trick for my lower level attack on Monday (I was shocked, maybe it was helped out by the other meds). As Pinky has listed anti-inflamitories under "probably not" detrimental to the therapy, I will try to fall back on these if necessary. I'll do my best to not take anything else.
I appreciate the advice very much, you have both been on this road longer than I have, and I am sure I will have many more questions. If I can help out in any other way, let me know. I have previous experience with psychedelics for recreational use, but those days are behind me. I have been reading as much as I can, and know that I have far more to learn. My health is not something I would play around with, and all I have read so far appears very valid. I fully understand that this may not work at all, but due to the fact that ch has been wreaking havoc on my life, I want to try it now. I have been pumped full of medications. Outside of the steroids which I have not been allowed to continue taking for fear of side affects, the drugs have made me nothing but sick after barely working for short periods of time. If the mushrooms don't work this time, I'll try the proper method at the beginning of my next bout.
I last dosed on Saturday, and was pleased with the results. I would like to wait until Thursday to give myself the full 5 days, but was thinking that if I get hit harder tomorrow,
session two will be tomorrow night. I hope we can all learn something from this.

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 20^th, 2002, 10:46am

Rick, thank you for the very detailed report. Your description of the CH returning once the corticosteroid dose dropped below a certain threshold is familiar to many of us, I am sure.

If you took just a small dose of mushrooms on Saturday, it might be fine to take a larger amount on Wednesday, rather than waiting another day. The waiting period varies from individual to individual, and likely is also partially dose-dependent. The absolute minimum waiting period, no matter what, is 72 hours, though. I suggest taking this next dose on an empty stomach rather than mixing it with food. Food hampers the absorption of the psilocybin, and increases the chance that nausea might be a problem.

I also recommend staying away from Amerge. All of the triptans are quite similar to psilocybin in their chemical structure (for example sumatriptan -Imitrex- is basically sulfonated DMT, while psilocybin is phosphorylated DMT) so I believe their potential for interference is very high. Amerge, in particular, is problematical since it has a very long halflife.

As for the rest of the meds... I don't know. Doxepin would be the one I would be most concerned with, since it is a tri-cyclic antidepressant. Depakote is an SSRI, so there will likely be some interaction there as well.

See: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1015619804

One of my posts toward the end of that thread lists some tricyclics and SSRIs that have been found to either increase or decrease the psychedelic effects of psilocybin/psilocin and LSD.

But if you want to go ahead and try the mushrooms anyway, your data will certainly be of help to us.

Thanks again for the excellent report.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Flash on Mar 21^st, 2002, 6:58am

I believe that many CH medications actually go some way towards prolonging the duration of the cluster. I also believe that this is more likely to be the case when several medications are taken either back to back or as a cocktail.

The best analogy I can come up with is indigestion/heartburn caused by excessive alchohol:

Imagine that you go out drinking, and next day your stomach feels a little unhappy. Now some of us would just ride this out, drinking a few glasses of water.

Others might perhaps be tempted to try hair of the dog - this works at first but then the heartburn comes back with a vengence.

Next some soothing milk is added but oops that produces more acid and the symtoms get worse.

Next straight onto the calcium carbonate antacids. These work for a couple of hours, but as soon as some food is consumed it's back to square one - only worse.

By this time things have gained their own momentum and life is barely worth living.

In steps our hero (the mushroom of the acid indigestion world) - Zantac (Ranitidine Hydrochloride). Now Zantac can kill acid indigestion at a single stroke, but sometimes it takes more than one go. However the Zantac will usually fail unless the stomach is also given a rest. Should the idiot continue to throw down more milk, antacids, hair of the dog, spicey kebabs etc then the Zantac will fail.

It's the same with mushrooms. Yes they can kill CH with one blast - but that is under ideal conditions. They should not be considered as an act of faith.

Hallucinogenics are a stand alone treatment in their own right. They must be treated with the same respect as any other medication. If you doctor says don't mix ergotamine and triptans then you don't... So why the fuck do people insist on mixing shrooms with anything else.

Remember the old saying 'more haste less speed'?

It's the same with this treatment. The absolute bottom line is that people should make a concious decision whether or not to try hallucinogenic treatment prior to the onset of their episode.

It's different for chronics, but bearing in mind that chronic CH can last decades, is a 5 day detox period followed by up to a month without medication too much to ask for a remission that may later be sustained with subsequent doses of hallucinogen.

Although I welcome any data, my concern is that people are not giving this treatment a fair chance. Most people seem keen to take their chances and gobble down everything they can get their hands on. That's a very short sighted approach and people are simply cheating themselves out of a decent remission.

The only thing that half assed use of the hallucinogens proves is that they have some sort of effect of CH.

Lets face it, very few of the conventional treatments are worth taking. In most cases we are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. Trust me the headaches are actually more bearable without any medication. The years I have tried medication other than hallucinogens my episode has stretched from 1 month to 2 months.

I agree with pinky that O2 is the least likely to affect hallucinogens, but I'd draw the line at pretty much everything else - that includ analgesics... those will only exacerbate the condition.

I believe the survey result will bear me out.

Flash

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by rick on Mar 21^st, 2002, 11:40pm

I felt like hell all day Tuesday and yesterday. I went to work, got hit with a Kip 8 headache, which dropped to a 5 by the time I got home. Heeding Pinky's advice, I skipped dinner and dosed on an empty stomach. I found a head shop that sold scales so that I can weigh my doses, but they won't have them in until next week. So I carefully eyed out what I took on a plate to keep track of the amount.
I took twice the amount I had taken this past Saturday. This sent me to level three in about a half hour, gauging this on my hallucinations plus the three dimensional patterns I saw when I closed my eyes. My headache dropped down to about a 2 for an hour, and as the effects of the mushrooms began to fade, I felt TOTAL relief of all pain. Took my Doxepin and Depakote later and went to sleep.
Woke up today feeling like hell. I took two Aleve, and the ch faded, but I had a left side tension headache (all my ch's are on my right side). Shadow reappeared on the way to work, and blew up again to an 8. Talked to one of my managers, I was going to leave early, and then the headache completely disappeared about 5 minutes later. Not in the manner of an attack ending, when I don't take any medication I'm at a 7-8 for maybe an hour or longer, which drops down to 5 for the rest of the day with no let up. Today, I experienced relief similar to what I felt the night before at the end of my dose. It felt like someone flipped a switch in my head, and the pain was gone. I felt the best I've felt since before my cycle began 4 months ago. Since I came home, no pain other than the occasional tremor of shadow, which only lasts a minute or two.
In my two previous bouts, I didn't take a lot of drugs other than the triptans and analgesics, which I did my best to use as sporadically as possible. In my second bout, I received multiple chiropractic treatments each week, and went on a cleansing diet. I spent the first 3 months of this bout reiceiving chiropractic and accupuncture treatments, eating well, focusing on a consistent sleeping pattern, stretching out for about an hour each night, and again trying to limit use of the painkillers. I know the last part of this is the hardest, but, as I stated in my previous post, I was able to have 2-3 days at a time of normalcy, where I didn't even need them.
This has been my least painful and headache ridden cycle of the three. I attribute this to my lifestyle. I am a martial artist and a health freak. I drank alcohol 5-6 times a year and coffee 5 days a week, and I am now giving up both. I'm fighting this m*th*rf**k*r with all I have and I will not quit ever. I know my choice of lifestyle is not the total answer, but it seems to have some effect.
It is not my desire to be saturated with meds, but this is the first time I have given it a try. I was trying to avoid it, but I had to see for myself. I have been off steroids for three days now, and I can for the first time discern that both meds I am currently on are not working. They are in fact making me sick, weak, and fatigued. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to stop taking them, both contain the phrase DO NOT DISCONTINUE WITHOUT CONSULTING YOUR PHYSICIAN in bold print in the literature provided with them. I know that in the case of steroids, discontinuation of a cycle can be problematic, and even fatal, so I am not about to discontinue these meds without consulting a doctor. Unfortunately, my neuro is on vacation this week. I have tried to reach my primary care physician (my step-mother), but could not reach her, so I will try again tomorrow.
She happens to be one of the people that I respect the most in my life, and it would be difficult at this point to call her and explain "Hey, I read on the internet that if I take psychedelics, I could get this under control, so I'm going to stop all my meds, what do you think?".
I will discuss this with her when the time is right and I have done all my homework. I am going to explain to her in the meantime that these meds make me sick, and, at this point, I felt better before I started them.
Thus far, I have felt positive results from use of the mushrooms. Again I realise that I may not experience the full benefits from them while on the meds, but I am grateful for what they have done for me so far. I was going to take next week off of work again, but feel as though I can make it now. Due to my current financial circumstances, I can't afford to miss any more work. I am a bartender (no work, no tips, no $$$$). It was recommended that I have enough for five good doses. I have enough for about 20, with more on the way next week (my friends have rallied around my cause).
I am very new to this site. I have chosen this path of treatment because Pinky has presented a very sound argument toward it's benefits. I am dosing again on Sunday, and I'm going to push myself to go without any pain killers until then.

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Flash on Mar 22^nd, 2002, 7:58am

Rick,

My last message wasn't specifically directed towards you, but at the wider audience.

I fully respect the other things you are tying, such as keeping in shape, avoiding legal drugs, and minding your sleep pattern. I agree that these things all do help a bit.

I'm glad that you have also confirmed that the prescription drugs are making you sick. In my opinion anything that screws around with the body too much will make the CH worse, in the same way that keeping healthy helps things.

Certainly it looks like you are seing some substantial disruption to the cycle. This is a positive sign - it shows that the shrooms are making life difficult for the headaches. Often a remission arrives around 48 hours after your last trip. I think the reason for this is that the hallucinogens screw up the body a little, and thus temp aggravate the CH. Afterwords the body seems to sort itself out - almost as a reaction to the hallucinogen.

Remember that the hallucinogens work on 2 levels. Firstly they are a vascular constrictor, and similar in action to triptans and ergotamine. This is why they often abort a headache in progress, and also why people rarely suffer a headache during a trip (although this can happen - vascular constriction is never enough to tame a determined CH).

Secondly they seem to shock the body into sorting it's own chemistry out. It's like the shock of tripping makes the body realise that it's serontonin regulation is out of whack. This is probably because psilocin spoofs serotonin. The body suddenly goes "Shit - where'd all this serotonin come from? I better get this under control!". It usually takes a couple of days to recover from a trip, and it's during this period that the headaches suffer some strange disruption, just as you have described. Though sometimes we get lucky and the episode just ends 30 minutes after ingestion.

The key indicator is whether the headaches improve or degenerate over this 48 hour period. If they improve then you have tipped the scales and are heading for remission - otherwise better luck next time.

There is also a get out of jail free card. On occasion myself and others have failed to tip the scales, and run out of shrooms, only for the episode to terminate prematurely within10 days or so. The downside is that the headaches are total fuckin hell for that 10 days :(

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Flash

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Flash on Mar 22^nd, 2002, 8:09am

Also,

On the drug interaction front. Some cluster medications such as predisone are essentially trying to stabilise the body's chemistry. The problem here is that psilocin does exactly the opposite - it shocks the body's chemistry waking the body up to the situation... it's the body that stabilises it's own chemistry with this treatment.

For my money that puts predisone at odds with hallucinogens. They are conflicting objectives.

The same may also be true of verapamill.

At the end of the day, a lot will depend on the individual involved. Not everyone's body will respond to the shock of halluinogenic drugs in every instance.

I believe it is important to give the treatment the best possible chance by taking it on a clean system. Also if the first go only produces some disruption, then keep trying at 5 day intervals. If the first go doesn't work then try an alternative hallucinogen. Most prescription drugs have several alternatives that work in a similar fashion. These alternatives are available because some drugs may prove ineffective, or cause nasty side effects in certain individuals. Hallucinogens are no exception. If shrooms don't work then LSD, mescaline, or DMT might.

Some hallucinogens may also be purchase legally.

Flash

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 22^nd, 2002, 8:19am

on 03/21/02 at 23:40:39, rick wrote:

I took twice the amount I had taken this past Saturday. This sent me to level three in about a half hour, gauging this on my hallucinations plus the three dimensional patterns I saw when I closed my eyes.

Sounds like you ended up with a little more than you had anticipated. This shows the drawbacks to "eyeballing" a dose rather than weighing it. Or, the effects may have been increased by the Doxepin (a tri-cyclic antidepressant) in your system. Hard to say.

Quote:

Woke up today feeling like hell. I took two Aleve, and the ch faded, but I had a left side tension headache (all my ch's are on my right side).

A "tension" or "hangover" type headache is not uncommon after a "Level 3" or higher dose of mushrooms, but standard aspirin or tylenol will get rid of it easily. Once you hit the higher levels, where the psychedelic effects become more noticeable, you also need to get a really good night's sleep... ten hours or more... or you will feel physically fatigued the next day.

Quote:

Today, I experienced relief similar to what I felt the night before at the end of my dose. It felt like someone flipped a switch in my head, and the pain was gone. I felt the best I've felt since before my cycle began 4 months ago. Since I came home, no pain other than the occasional tremor of shadow, which only lasts a minute or two.

Sounds like the psilocybin/psilocin had some effect, even though there were other meds present in your body at the time of dosing. Promising! My guess is that if you can taper off the Doxepin and Depakote before your next dose, you may be able to finish off The Beast completely.

Quote:

I have been off steroids for three days now, and I can for the first time discern that both meds I am currently on are not working. They are in fact making me sick, weak, and fatigued.

That is the Hobson's Choice most of us are faced with. Bouts of agony from The Beast, or debilitating and ongoing side-effects from powerful prescription medications. Tough decision.

Quote:

I am very new to this site. I have chosen this path of treatment because Pinky has presented a very sound argument toward it's benefits. I am dosing again on Sunday, and I'm going to push myself to go without any pain killers until then.

It is possible that you may not need another dose. It is not uncommon for the day after a dose of mushrooms to be filled with shadows and "non-typical" headaches. There are many reports from people who thought the first dose was insufficient, but had steady improvements over the next several days, and when day 5 was reached, found the headaches were gone. By all means be prepared to dose again, but don't be surprised if you don't have to.

If it were me, I would start tapering off the Doxepin and Depakote right away. I don't mean you should stop "Cold Turkey" without speaking to a doctor, but I doubt it would be dangerous to at least drop the dosages a bit. After all, people DO stop taking these meds, right? And any conscientious physician will tell you that the idea with ANY daily med is to find the minimum effective dose. All good doctors are conservative when it comes to prescribing heavy-duty drugs.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by rick on Mar 23^rd, 2002, 12:23am

Today I woke up feeling like hell... until I got out of bed and began moving around. Then I felt fine. I felt great. I was at level 1 on the kip scale, feeling minor spells of shadows coming and going. I got popped with a level 6 at about 1:00 P. M., which lasted about an hour. Although it was strange, in that time, I had customers at the bar, and we were talking and laughing. No one could tell. Typically, my co workers can tell when I am getting hit. It was odd, I had level 6 pain, but I was totally able to blow it off. After an hour, all the pain vanished again. An hour after that, it came back, and I've been bouncing back and forth from 0-3 since then. All symptoms appear to be diminishing.
My step-mother is attending a wedding this weekend, and I am unable to reach her to discuss my meds. So I went on line to investigate Depakote, and I realised that the manufacturer is Abbott. It did not occur to me, and this is almost a ridiculous coincidence: my friends living in the apartment above me work for Abbott, and it turned out that one of them handled testing for Depakote. The advice they gave me was stop the Depakote, because it obviously wasn't helping and was making me feel like hell. I was warned though, to be careful with the Doxepin, and to taper down the dosage over a period of days. This is primarily due to the fact that ch is related to problems with seritonin levels. I also explained my new therapy, and one of them has been having migraines, so I directed him to the Erowid website.
So I am stopping the Depakote tonight. I am currently taking (sorry, I listed the wrong dosage in a previous post) 100 mgs of Doxepin, which I will reduce tomorrow to 50 mgs, and take that for five days. This is the reverse of how I began the medication. I still plan on dosing Sunday. I could wait until Monday, but I have to work Tuesday morning. I am off Sunday and Monday, and dosing Sunday would give me Monday to recuperate if necessary.
Yes, these drugs are most definitely making me sick, and I really do believe at this point that they are making my cycle worse. I forgot to mention in my last post that I had also tried Verapamil. At the start of the cycle, my step-mother recommended it on the advice of some neuros (her focus is internal medicine). I really didn't want to, but after a month into this cycle, I gave it a try. Three weeks later, I almost blacked out while reading a book. I was only on 120 mgs a day. I have totally normal blood pressure, and my current neuro commented that I am "in excellent shape, other than the ch". Again, the Verapamil did not put even a dent in my headaches.
Meds have done NOTHING positive for me other than prednisone which is only a short term solution, and even that seemed to be causing joint problems for me at the end of my last dosage. You are right Flash, I would rather stay off all meds other than getting by on triptans on and off when necessary. Oh yeah, I tried an experiment of taking Amerge three days in a row as a preventitive, and ended up in the ER with the worst rebound of my life on day four.
Pinky, I think my jump in the levels experienced while dosing on Wednesday could be attributed to taking the mushrooms on a completely empty stomach. It was not a big deal, I've reached higher levels back in my "recreational days", and have always had an "eye of the storm" feeling of calm in those situations. It felt to me as though the higher dosage was more beneficial, what do you think? Funny that Thursday morning, when I took the Aleve, the cluster diminished but not the tension headache. Those have been coming and going, maybe from the feeling of dehydration I'm getting from the doxepin? Who knows. I don't necessarily want to oversleep though, I've actually been having a hard time sleeping soundly, and my friends from Abbott said Depakote would make me hyperactive. There may be a connection there also. There are so many variables with this condition it's hard for me to pin down cause and effect with all the symptoms we experience. My headaches have definitely been atypical since I began the therapy, that is certain.
Flash, one question that my friends from Abbott had asked, and I myself do not know: what is DMT? Again, I want to thank you both for your "coaching", the information you are providing has been invaluable to me.

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 23^rd, 2002, 1:27am

on 03/23/02 at 00:23:43, rick wrote:

It felt to me as though the higher dosage was more beneficial, what do you think?

It wouldn't surprise me. We have had reports from two chronics who got relief of only a week or two each time they did a low dose, who then did BIG doses and got relief for months. I believe each individual has a "threshhold" dose that is required to halt a cycle. Very small doses will abort individual headaches (several reports now of people putting a small piece of dried mushroom under the tongue and aborting individual headaches this way -- like a natural Imitrex), slightly larger doses will alter the nature of the cycle and reduce the intensity and severity of the headaches, while still larger doses (especially "back-to-back" doses) will end the cycle. This seems to support the "threshhold" hypothesis, as does common sense.

Quote:

Flash, one question that my friends from Abbott had asked, and I myself do not know: what is DMT? Again, I want to thank you both for your "coaching", the information you are providing has been invaluable to me.

DMT is di-methyl triptamine. It is a hallucinogen in the same family as psilocybin, psilocin, bufotenin, 5 MeO-DMT, and others. It is the only known endogenous hallucinogen; that is to say it occurs naturally in small amounts in the human body. It is also the only known hallucinogen that doesn't exhibit the self-limiting factor that psilocybin and LSD do. In other words, it can be ingested repeatedly at very short intervals with no loss of effect. It is structurally very similar to serotonin. Imitrex (sumatriptan) is basically sulfonated DMT, psilocybin is phosphorylated DMT.

DMT is the active ingredient in the divinatory drink "ayahuasca" which is used ritually by the shamans of several South American tribes. It is found in several vines and plants in South America. Here is a comparison between the DMT molecule and the serotonin molecule:

http://www.erowid.org/cgi-bin/chem_compare/chem_compare.cgi?LM=_ch_dmt_ia_dmt_3d_mid.jpg&RM=_ch_other_ia_serotonin_3d_mid.jpg

and here is DMT and psilocin:

http://www.erowid.org/cgi-bin/chem_compare/chem_compare.cgi?LM=_ch_dmt_ia_dmt_3d_mid.jpg&RM=_pl_mushrooms_ia_psilocin_3d_mid.jpg

Notice that DMT and psilocin differ by a single atom of oxygen; otherwise they are identical. Some people have speculated that the reason mushrooms work has nothing to do with the fact that psilocin resembles serotonin, but rather that it so closely resembles DMT. Their argument is that if DMT occurs naturally in the body, then it is possible that clusterheads have an imbalance of DMT. When one takes a dose of mushrooms, the psilocin molecules occupy the neural receptor sites that DMT normally would, correcting this imbalance. To the best of my knowledge, no one has done a comparison of the levels of DMT in clusterheads vs the levels of DMT in normal humans.

Interesting, no?

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by maria on Mar 23^rd, 2002, 10:27pm

Hey Pinky,
I am fascinated by your research on our and your behalf. After 22 years of episodic clusters (by the the way what is CPH?), happening usually every spring, I have only had one in the last seven years. I speculate this change could be due to prozac, beta blockers, increased exposure to natural light. You living on the Island of Hispanola might not experience this, but S.A.D. (Seasonal Affective Disorder) is a common factor in our sun limited latitude particularly in the winter months. How does the prozac, beta blockers, natural sun light etc. fit your paradigm for beating the damned beast? In reading your mail on shrooms I am ready to sign up rather than reaching for Prozac at the first sign of the cycle. The shrooms grow in the wild here and I might be able to score easier here than growing my own. They were in our new grass of a previous home. I had to chase away the teen-age harvesters. A friend of ours tried them and gave glowing reviews. Signing up for next mushroom class in the NW. Pinky, I respect your opinion, Maria

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by Flash on Mar 25^th, 2002, 6:22am

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 26^th, 2002, 12:57am

on 03/23/02 at 22:27:55, maria wrote:

How does the prozac, beta blockers, natural sun light etc. fit your paradigm for beating the damned beast?

Prozac is a serotonergic drug -- it modifies serotonin levels, which are out of whack in us clusterheads. Beta blockers probably work the same way that calcium channel blockers work, just not as well. I get plenty of natural sunlight here, and the hours of daylight are pretty much constant all year round. I still get clusters. To the best of my knowledge SAD has nothing to do with them. It certainly has nothing to do with mine.

Quote:

The shrooms grow in the wild here and I might be able to score easier here than growing my own. They were in our new grass of a previous home. I had to chase away the teen-age harvesters. A friend of ours tried them and gave glowing reviews. Signing up for next mushroom class in the NW.

The most potent species of psilocybe is Psilocybe azurescens, and it is pretty common in the Pacific Northwest, as is Psilocybe cyanescens, another very potent species. Problem is, neither of them can be cultivated indoors, and the outdoor ones won't be around till the autumn. On the other hand, Psilocybe cubensis is dead simple and dirt cheap to cultivate indoors. It can take as little as 28 to 35 days to grow a crop. But the US government says it is illegal to do so. They also say it is illegal to pick the ones that grow in the grass of your previous home. Daddy knows best.

pinky

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by maria on Mar 26^th, 2002, 8:59pm

Thanks flash and pinky,
It is still a puzzle about my CH. Was it prozac, beta blockers or what that sent the beast away. One article suggested that hypertension could be the clue. Hypertension related (hypalgesia) reducuded sensitivity to the brain and spinal cord (webMD) Would not mind growing my own but how do you explain them to your totally straight teen age sons. Thanks, Maria

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by rick on Mar 26^th, 2002, 9:47pm

After two solid doses of psilocybin (this past Sunday and last Wednesday), my headaches have been tamed, to say the least. All symptoms have diminished by about 50%, and the ch's are tolerable. That is something I never thought I would say. I only get hit once a day for an hour, and it is no more than an annoyance.

I've had no shadow for three days now, the attacks themselves just pop up and then fade out. Yesterday, I took a small piece of a cap at the onset of the headache. I had just eaten a full meal, and it would have taken a while to digest anyway. The attack was over in an hour, so I really couldn't tell if it made a difference. Just an experiment, I got the idea from reading Monique & Greg's experiences. I don't think I'll try it again. I feel that for me, the process will work best with the four to five day intervals. Anytime I have used any of the medications excessively, I have only felt worse, and I am treating psilocybin with the same respect.

Speaking of that, I've only felt better and more energetic since discontinuing the Depakote this past Friday. I have tapered down my dosage of Doxepin from 50 mgs to 25 mgs. I'm still feeling very dehydrated from it, and will be done with it on Wednesday. My bout should have been finished almost a month ago, and I've got a feeling saturating my system with the meds has a lot to do with this cycle's extension.

I have not given up on the meds entirely, I still intend to keep an open mind toward everything, but I have felt relief from the moment I began the mushroom therapy. More so than from anything I've tried since my ch's began. It may be possible that my cycle is running it's course and coming to a finish, but I doubt it. The reason being that when I used a solid dose of psilocybin last Wednesday (hitting level 3), I could physically feel the cycle switch directions within my body. Also, before that evening I still got hit pretty hard on the days right before and the day after. This is contrary to the way my previous two bouts closed out, where I was feeling the way I've felt over the last four days. And I hope this is a sign, because I want to start working out again, among other things. Peace.

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by rick on Mar 28^th, 2002, 8:34pm

ALL IS WELL!!!! thank you thank you thank you my friends Pinky and Flash...

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by scottie on Jul 8^th, 2002, 10:12am

Hey gang,

I am only bumping this back to the top so newbies can find it easier.

Scottie

PFDAN ;D ;D

Title: Re: Important Notes on "Mushroom" Therapy -- Part
Post by scottie on Jul 18^th, 2002, 11:25pm

Ditto. ;D

Scottie