Clusterheadaches.com Message Board


    
      
        Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Rhodiola stops my headaches.  <-IMPORTANT
        
(Message started by: PaulBorneo on Mar 14^th, 2008, 5:18pm)

Title: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by PaulBorneo on Mar 14^th, 2008, 5:18pm

My name is Paul Borneo. I live in Northampton, MA. I'm 45 years old, and since my early 20's I've suffered from cluster headaches which causes me to have, every year and a half or so, a 6-week bout of 40-minute long severe headaches, 4 or 5 per night, along with daytime headaches during the middle of the bout. The best treatment that I had found was the standard practice of breathing pure oxygen during a headache. While it doesn't stop the headaches it does reduce their severity and make them somewhat bearable.

For 15 years I've devoted myself to conducting research into and experimenting with a wide range of therapies and substances in an effort to find an effective treatment. For this current cluster cycle I've been using Rhodiola or Rose Root. It has proven to be, for me, a safe and INCREDIBLY effective treatment. This is what I have spent years looking for and I want to share it in the hopes that it will help others.

One 300 mg dose, taken before bed, provides me with 7 hours of complete and total prevention of headaches. I have never before found anything that actually prevents my headaches in the first place. I am able to sleep through the night. Further, 100 mg dissolved in the mouth stops a headache in progress within 10 minutes. The effect is unmistakable, consistent and profound. For the first time in my life I am experiencing a cluster cycle in which I am not suffering substantial pain - except for the nights that I have dared to not take it in order to confirm the effect.

I've found that, above around 600 mg/day, the more of it that you take the less effective it is. As soon as I found that it worked I started taking 300 mg 4 times per day. A few days later the night time relief was not as pronounced. So I started taking it only for the night. Taking it on an empty stomach seems to be best. A full stomach very much slows down absorption and can lead to too little in the blood stream to be effective. It was during the night when I had taken it on a full stomach that I got a headache while using it. That's when I found that 100 mg held in the mouth would stop a headache. It absorbs quite readily through the mouth. A tea made from 100 mg on an empty stomach also works, but I've found the mouth method to be more rapid. My headaches also occur during the daytime during the middle of my cycle and I have had 100 percent success with aborting them within ten minutes with this method.

Rhodiola is a Siberian herb, relatively unknown in the US until the last few years. It elevates serotonin and dopamine levels. I first learned of it and tried taking it last Summer. I use the time between cluster bouts to research and experiment with substances that seem promising. I had come to realize that my cluster bouts are preceded by a sharp drop in serotonin level and I think that the headaches are a symptom of that drop. I've come to wonder if cluster headaches are a form of serotonin imbalance, perhaps a cousin of depression or rapid-cycling bipolar disorder.

I would very much like to have other try Rhodiola as a therapy and let me know what your results are. If it is anywhere near as effective for others as it is proving to be for me, it will be a very important new treatment.

Sincerely,

Paul Borneo

paulborneo at yahoo dot com

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by AussieBrian on Mar 14^th, 2008, 5:31pm

Remarkble how we're all different. A quick flick through the net shows it should only be taken in the morning as it interferes with sleep but anything's worth a try, I suppose.

Any word on a reputable supplier?

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by PaulBorneo on Mar 14^th, 2008, 5:35pm

Having it in your system does make getting to sleep harder. I take it right before going to sleep so I can drift off before it hits my system. I wouldn't recommend it at night for people who don't need it. But, if course, sleeping through the night is impossible when you're waking up with headaches every hour and a half as I do.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by PaulBorneo on Mar 14^th, 2008, 5:36pm

I've been getting it from New Chapter out of Brattleboro, VT at the local health food store. $25 for 30 300 mg capsules.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by nani on Mar 14^th, 2008, 8:04pm

Interesting.
I'll be watching for more info on this. It's on Flo's ShrubMed site under this:
Index for Research on parasympathetic nervous related to herbs and natural therapies

http://www.shrubmed.com/parasympathetic%20nervous.html

I'm glad it's helping you, Paul.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by MJ on Mar 15^th, 2008, 12:15am

Very interesting.

What you state sounds very much like my trials with RCseeds. Your statement helps me to be reassured in my belief that its chemical balancing act that ultimately gives "control".

"I've found that, above around 600 mg/day, the more of it that you take the less effective it is.

"I've come to wonder if cluster headaches are a form of serotonin imbalance,"

I am absolutely convinced of that.

From http://www.drugs.com/npp/rhodiola.html

"CNS activity of R. rosea has been reported. Earlier studies found the small and medium doses of the plant had stimulatory effects and larger doses had sedative effects. 1 In small and medium doses, it was confirmed by later studies that R. rosea stimulates norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, and nicotinic cholinergic effects in the CNS. It also enhances the effects of these neurotransmitters on the brain by increasing the permeability of the blood-brain barrier to precursors of dopamine and serotonin."

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Trooper on Mar 15^th, 2008, 12:51am

Does anyone know if this would be ok to take while on other meds? I have not yet been blessed with an O2 tank and I don't know that I am brave enough to lay down the triptan and give this a try. I find this very interesting though being 98% of my headaches are at night.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by MJ on Mar 15^th, 2008, 1:11am

Trooper
PaulBorneo is the first I have seen report on the stuff and therefore he is the current expert here.

Doesnt seem at first glance to be a lot of research on the stuff to show any interactions at this time in the US anyways.

It seems well worth a try but not together with other triptans untill more is known. Lay down the other drugs and give it a try.
I'm all for the more natural ways.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by tommyD on Mar 15^th, 2008, 6:52am

Wikipedia, for what it's worth, reports it is an MAOI, so check carefully for interactions.

Quote:

Rhodiola rosea's effects are attributed to its ability to optimise serotonin and dopamine levels, due to monoamine oxidase inhibition and to its influence on opioid peptides such as beta-endorphins.[2]

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by sandie99 on Mar 16^th, 2008, 8:17am

Paul, this all sounds very intresting. Thank you for sharing your discovery with the rest of us! :)

It's great to know about other possible treatment in case my current choice (red bull & caffeine tabs) stops working.

Sanna

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Trooper on Mar 16^th, 2008, 11:35am

Quote:

Though little known as a medicinal plant, rose root has been used in traditional European medicine for over three thousand years, mainly as a tonic. Modern ^{research has shown that it increases the body's resistance to any type of stress by regulating the body's hormonal response. Its use has been shown to have a protective effect upon the neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine in the brain. It improves neurotransmitter activity by inhibiting their enzymatic destruction and preventing their decline caused by excessive stress hormone release. Rose root also enhances the transport of serotonin's precursors into the brain and studies have shown that use of this herb can increase brain serotonin by up to 30%[255].}

[quote]www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Rhodiola+rosea - 22k [ftp][quote]

I think this is worth a try!

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Trooper on Mar 16^th, 2008, 11:38am

Quote:

Though little known as a medicinal plant, rose root has been used in traditional European medicine for over three thousand years, mainly as a tonic. Modern research has shown that it increases the body's resistance to any type of stress by regulating the body's hormonal response. Its use has been shown to have a protective effect upon the neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine in the brain. It improves neurotransmitter activity by inhibiting their enzymatic destruction and preventing their decline caused by excessive stress hormone release. Rose root also enhances the transport of serotonin's precursors into the brain and studies have shown that use of this herb can increase brain serotonin by up to 30%[255].

ok, will try this again...sorry guys, I am a little new to the whole posting thing!

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Crappy on Mar 18^th, 2008, 5:35am

Paul,

Thanks for sharing this. I'll add this to my list of "things to try that my neuros can't refuse me."

I told one neuro I needed something NOW to give me some temporary relief, because I was losing my business and fearing for my sanity. My wife needed a break dealing with life in general, and one more month or two like the last year and I might end up in bankruptcy, laying off a dozen employees, and as close to psychotic as my constitution will allow me to come. I said I'd heard so many chronic CHers mention suicide, and I hadn't gotten to that point yet, but I could see such thoughts within reach and it scared the crap out of me. I asked for a cafergot script or DHE infusion, which I know helped others temporarily (or longer).

His response? "Nah, that can cause fibrosis of the heart and lungs ... blah ... Gangrene ... blah... people self medicating ... blah blah." I smiled and walked out thinking, "Did you hear a word I said? My life is OVER, and you're worried about possible fibrosis if I over-medicate?" He's fired of course, but sometimes I wish I had a magic wand to give some people just ONE kip 9 (okay, maybe two if the first one doesn't stick), then maybe we'd get somewhere with docs, neuros, and lawmakers.

I feel like such a hypocrite, because I'm a card-carrying skeptic, and especially skeptical of anything labelled "alternative." Alternative/herbal medicines are anathema to us. Living with 8 years of chronic pain has split my personality. One side is a libertarian pissed at "Mommy Government" and "normal" people who support it with their votes for having the gall to forbid certain things that might relieve this horror (i.e. - LSD, LSA, and shrooms). The other side of my brain screams caution when people talk about a drug as "natural" or "herbal" as if that means "safer than prescription drugs," and makes me want to shout "so is cyanide an uncounted other poisons!"

Only the kind of daily, unending pain that CH brings could cause a die-hard skeptic like me to recently start crushing flower seeds and soaking them in wine hoping for relief. I was on the board of a well-known fundamentalist Christian church a few years ago, and would have been thrown out just for sipping alcohol, let alone drinking it with questionable substances soaking in it.

So, as conflicted as I am, I would issue one serious warning to anyone considering this new treatment or any other "new" alternative treatment. I've reached the point where I decided that legal consequences and possible side effects of busting were dwarfed by the toll that chronic CH had already taken on my life. However, alternative/herbal remedies ARE DRUGS, as potentially dangerous and with as many possible side effects as any prescriptions. The main difference with herbal/supplement drugs is that extensive clinical trials are not required to market them since they were grandfathered in when FDA regulations were written up. As such we simply do not know what their side effects and interactions might be when we start swallowing them. Alternative/herbal remedies are not regulated as tightly as "prescription" drugs, which means their purity, efficacy, and other important qualities are totally unknown.

tommyD mentioned that Wikipedia reports Rhodiola as an MAOI. If you've ever read the counterindications for most prescription drugs or over-the-counter NSAID pain relievers, you'll see warnings about MAOIs as often as pregnancy.

Just as with any drug, it's important to do some serious research before trying, and (gulp) maybe even talk to your doctor. However, encyclopedias and doctors will never understand what living with the Beast is like, especially for us chronics who haven't found much relief yet, so I say the job of weighing the risks vs. benefits to your health, life, and wallet should be yours to make. Just make sure you do the research first, and understand the risks you are taking.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORT
Post by monty on Mar 19^th, 2008, 1:24pm

One of the better pages on Rhodiola is at Hebalgram: http://content.herbalgram.org/abc/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2333

An interesting factoid from the article - rhodiola reduces corticotrophin releasing factor (CRF) in the hypothalamus, which ultimately reduces cortisol. No idea if this is how Paul might have gotten relief, but could be. Rose root also affects a wide variety of other chemicals in the body (including neurotransmitters), and it smells pretty good, too.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Charlotte on Mar 19^th, 2008, 3:40pm

vitacost search produced this result.

http://www.vitacost.com/productResults.aspx?.x=6&ss=1&Ntk=products&.y=5&Ntt=rhodiola

Charlotte

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Trooper on Mar 19^th, 2008, 8:17pm

I have tried the 100mg. dissolved in my mouth three times now and it has worked within 10 minutes! (I did have one ha that escallated very quickly the second night that it did not work for.) I have not had succes with anything higher than a Kp. 6 or 7. but it did work! First night I woke up 2 hrs after first abort and had to reach for the Imitrex. Last night I woke up with a K-6, took the 100mgs. of rose root and slept PF for another 4 hrs. I want to give this at least a full week before I post all my details but so far it looks somewhat promising. 3 out of 4 aborts is not bad even though it only lasted 2hrs. I am hope that with a little more time I may see even more favorable results.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Annette on Mar 20^th, 2008, 1:53am

on 03/19/08 at 20:17:15, Trooper wrote:

I have tried the 100mg. dissolved in my mouth three times now and it has worked within 10 minutes! (I did have one ha that escallated very quickly the second night that it did not work for.) I have not had succes with anything higher than a Kp. 6 or 7. but it did work! First night I woke up 2 hrs after first abort and had to reach for the Imitrex. Last night I woke up with a K-6, took the 100mgs. of rose root and slept PF for another 4 hrs. I want to give this at least a full week before I post all my details but so far it looks somewhat promising. 3 out of 4 aborts is not bad even though it only lasted 2hrs. I am hope that with a little more time I may see even more favorable results.

Imitrex and all other triptans should not be used with MAOIs, not even within 2 weeks of one another.

Triptans are metabolized primarily by monoamine oxidase enzymes, similar to monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors. Therefore taking triptans and MAOIs together generally leads to an increase of blood triptan level, which can be dangerous.

If you are taking Rhodiola, you shouldnt be taking imitrex at the same time.

Please be careful and remember natural medicine is still medicine and can have serious side effects and interactions and shouldnt be taken without checking with your doctor first.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORT
Post by monty on Mar 20^th, 2008, 9:24am

I agree that caution is in order, especially when it comes to mixing herbs and prescription medicines like triptans.

But it should be said that there is little to no evidence that Rhodiola really is a MAOI. The wikipedia entry that suggests it is so has no citation. In the 1960s and 70s, every herb with an effect on mood was immediately suspected of being a MAOI, as this was one of the few mechanisms that were partially understood.

There are herbs with a low level of MAO-I activity in lab tests, but no clinical significance, and yet these still carry warnings not to mix them with other MAOI drugs, beans and ripe cheese.

This cycle was repeated when SSRI drugs were discovered - researchers naturally rushed out to test herbs for SSRI activity, and some herbs were categorized as SSRIs on the basis of a single lab test with no context.

Salidroside and rosarin in rhodiola root have a peculiar ring structure that is reminiscent of memantine (which is an NMDA/glutamate inhibitor). Searching on PubMed, I did find one article that suggests that salidroside lowers Calcium flux by blocking glutamate receptors:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16753799

Personally, I would be more concerned about mixing Rhodiola with calcium channel inhibitors like verapamil, although this also is an unproven risk. It isn't clear that it actually blocks calcium channels, although it does seem to change calcium metabolism.

Most of the universe is uncharted water, kiddies; sail at your own risk.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by tommyD on Mar 20^th, 2008, 5:29pm

Quote:

But it should be said that there is little to no evidence that Rhodiola really is a MAOI. The wikipedia entry that suggests it is so has no citation. In the 1960s and 70s, every herb with an effect on mood was immediately suspected of being a MAOI, as this was one of the few mechanisms that were partially understood.

Monty -

Thanks for that, I bow to your superior knowledge. Goes to show, when quoting the Wiki, check again in 20 minutes, it may have changed.

When I read the entry a couple days ago, it had a footnote, but it led to a commercial web site that I thought could be shaky. And probably it was, since the cite is gone now.

-tommyD

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Annette on Mar 20^th, 2008, 6:05pm

http://www.organicfoodee.com/herbs/rhodiolarosea.html

http://www.healthandnutrition.co.uk/articles/depression.htm

http://www.goodhealth.nu/News_Articles/rosavin5.htm

http://www.bulknutrition.com/i21_Rhodiola.html

There seem to be a debate going on about whether or not rhodiola is a true MAOI. A quick search showed there are almost 50-50 articles supporting either arguments. Some articles suggest it is more of a SSRI than a MAOI. Others even suggest that it depends whether it comes from Russia or China as to what it can be ?!

What this shows is that very little is known about this Golden Root ( a name used by the herbalists ). There doesnt seem to be any reliable source of information. Even the people selling it and advocating its use dont know much about it. I find this interesting. If you go to a doctor, get prescribed a med and be told that no one really knows much about this med but take it anyway as it may help, would you take it ? I would guess most wouldnt. Yet when it comes to natural products people dont seem to care as much. We seem to forget that all modern medicine came from natural herbs or products. They only get modified and mass produced for safety and regulation. Natural herbs are just as if not more potent and therefore potentially dangerous.

All in all though, even when no one seems to know exactly what it is, they all agree that it elevates serotonin levels, that it affects dopamine levels as well as other possible effects on other neurotransmitters, therefore mixing it with other meds that are either triptans, ergots, MAOI or SSRI .... can cause problems.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by MJ on Mar 20^th, 2008, 11:52pm

on 03/20/08 at 18:05:17, Annette wrote:

What this shows is that very little is known

If you go to a doctor, get prescribed a med and be told that no one really knows much about this med but take it anyway as it may help, would you take it ? I would guess most wouldnt.
. Natural herbs are just as if not more potent and therefore potentially dangerous.

All in all though, even when no one seems to know exactly what it is, they all agree that it elevates serotonin levels, that it affects dopamine levels as well as other possible effects on other neurotransmitters, therefore mixing it with other meds that are either triptans, ergots, MAOI or SSRI .... can cause problems.

I agree with a lot of this however. When knowledge is gained its a different story.

Seems 90 plus percent of people blindly trust in the docs when taking prescribed medications. Those same medications, science has no clue how the majority actually help with CH, in other words its a crap shoot. Same with the herbals.

Heavens we dont dont even often know how they help the issues they were designed for. Can one explain how aspirin (was a natural) works to assist various problems or do we focus on the deaths in children from aspirin (now a synthetic).

Quite often the actual side effects of engineered drugs are many times worse than the potential benefits to a clusterhead and seldom does anyone know how they help. So yes we all at some time have taken drugs without knowing when a medical person prescribes it.

Its the marketing that sells a drug and the politicing that gets it approved. The physician looks it up and says hmmm lets try this someone else says it might work. We see an awfull lot of bad issues arise on this site alone from pharma and prescribed meds. Search around the world and those cases are astronomical.

"Safety and knowledge should allways be first and foremost." It is pretty hard to gain that knowledge without discussion trials and warnings from the likes of Tommy, Monty, PaulBorneo, Trooper, FLO, Nani, Brian, Annette, Patick, Bob J and all the others that contribute to free and open research..
Its a wonderful thing that PaulB brought here to be checked out learned about and trialed. If only one can be helped! And of course none harmed.

That was a bunch of mumbo on my part, but I said it anyways. Thats what 16 hours in the office does to me. ;)

Dont mix drugs without knowledge.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Crappy on Mar 21^st, 2008, 6:09am

I, for one, am thankful to Paul and other. Clusterheads for experimenting and bringing new possibilities to the community.

All of the warnings posted so far are or may be valid, but for those of us desperate enough the chance of unknown side effects from a new therapy are dwarfed by the damage that uncontrolled CH does.

It's still important for this dicussion and warnings be to be posted, because not every clusterhead should be trying a new therapy. If nothing works to you, do the research, read the warnings and go for it if you want to. If you have found therapies that work, I'd leave this one alone and wait for many detailed logs from us more desperate folk to be posted.

Just keep in mind what has been repeated here: "natural" and "herbal" does NOT mean safe, period. This is a drug, no better than prescription drugs and LIKELY more dangerous.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORT
Post by monty on Mar 21^st, 2008, 9:16am

on 03/21/08 at 06:09:08, Crappy wrote:

Just keep in mind what has been repeated here: "natural" and "herbal" does NOT mean safe, period. This is a drug, no better than prescription drugs and LIKELY more dangerous.

I agree with the first sentence - natural is not necessarily safe. But what is the basis for believing that it is likely more dangerous than prescription drugs? Rhodiola's history of use as a vegetable? It's history of use as a herbal tonic? Dozens of clinical trials where few or no side effects were noted? This is not to say that it can't interact with other meds - usually clinical trials exclude people on meds known to have a high risk of interactions. I think it is logical to be concerned about possible interactions with other meds that affect neurotransmitters, but think it is emotional and illogical to assume that it is likely more dangerous than prescription meds.

Regarding Annette's comment that the information on this plant is contradictory - I'll agree that it is when looking at content that is simply thrown on the internet. By that same standard, we would be split 50-50 whether most drugs out there are great lifesavers with manageable side effects, or horrible poisons being pushed for profit. The herbalgram article I linked to was written by 2 MDs and a PhD and was edited by other MDs and PhDs, and it reflects a decent overview of the scientific literature.

Title: Rhodiola and safety
Post by PaulBorneo on Mar 22^nd, 2008, 12:06pm

I read all that I could about Rhodiola before I started experimenting with it last Summer. It has a very low toxicity, can be taken in multi-gram per day doses, and, in my experience and research, has no withdrawal. That said, it is a powerful herb and I wouldn't risk taking it with other drugs. So many of the drugs that are prescribed for CH are toxic, have side-effects and can damage you, so concern is warranted. Rhodiola is well-studied and has a thousands of year-long history. I have read that people with a history of bipolar disorder should stay away from it. I'm sure that is because of it raising serotonin levels, which, like SSRI drugs, could trigger a manic episode.

When I take it, it feels like it directly addresses whatever is wrong that is causing my headaches. It seems to go right to the core of the issue, which, as I said in my original post, I think is a sharp drop in serotonin levels. You know, that lethargic, dragged-out, hopeless feeling that comes over you? That's serotonin, like a short-term depression.

In the week since I first posted I've continued to have consistent success with it. I also went another night without it and had 5 headaches. I've also started taking another 300 mg about 5 hours into the night so that I can make it past 7 hours without a headache. That's working better for me than waking with a headache at the end of the night and then aborting it with 100 mg held in my mouth. And I continue to find that only taking it when I expect headaches (at night) rather than continuously throughout the day is more effective.

Title: Re: Rhodiola and safety
Post by EstieSA on Mar 22^nd, 2008, 3:21pm

on 03/22/08 at 12:06:18, PaulBorneo wrote:

And I continue to find that only taking it when I expect headaches (at night) rather than continuously throughout the day is more effective.

As an "abortive" only? How long before the pain returns?

Won't it be better to slam away 300mg twice daily as a preventative? Will you still get hit? What I'm after is to tell what "more effective' means vs "less effective"?

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by thebbz on Mar 22^nd, 2008, 4:28pm

Quote:

R. rosea may affect emotional tone by influencing neurotransmitter monoamine levels (NE, DA, 5-HT) in nerve tracts involved in the regulation of mood, anxiety, and emotion in the amygdala, hippocampus, hypothalamus, and midbrain. The stimulation of nicotinic cholinergic activity in the emotional circuits of the limbic system (in the temporal lobe) may also contribute to these effects. Alterations in monoamine levels underlie this complex spectrum of psychotropic activity: stimulating, tranquilizing, anti-stress, and antidepressant.

And there you have it. Go stimulatin the hypothalamus it's going to screw with the demon.
I know this, stimulants seem to keep the demon down. Sedatives seem to trigger or piss him off. Never relax ever.
Good luck with your R.rosea, and do be careful. It is also recommended to consult with your doc before taking this and any herbal alternative. Should have seen the docs face when I told him what I was doing. That was precious.
all the best
thebb

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORT
Post by Annette on Mar 22^nd, 2008, 5:09pm

on 03/21/08 at 09:16:03, monty wrote:

I agree with the first sentence - natural is not necessarily safe. But what is the basis for believing that it is likely more dangerous than prescription drugs? .... but think it is emotional and illogical to assume that it is likely more dangerous than prescription meds.

No, biologically it may not be any more or less dangerous than prescription meds, but what makes its use potentially more dangerous is the lack of knowledge and research and insurance.

As a consumer, if you take a medication prescribed by a registered doctor and something bad happens to you, you are covered both by the insurance of the manufacturing pharmaceutical company as well as the doctors' indemnity insurance. My insurance covers my patient up to 10M per person in case of mishap.

Do you get any insurance at all buying and consuming natural herbs from a herbalist ? No.

Let compare 2 real cases that have been published on the newspapers here. One lady was given Gentamycin for a sinus infection and developed vestibular nerve damage which caused chronic vertigo and hearing loss. She was given more than a million dollars in compensation. Another lady bought some chinese herbal medicine in the form of tea for menstruation pain and headache, developed acute toxic hepatitis and ended up with liver cirrhosis. She lost her health, her hair, her job ... and no compensation. Both cases were rare. There are thousands of people who have taken both without any problem. However, there is no way to foretell if you are going to be the unlucky odd one out. With your family, children ... to care for, can you afford it?

That is what makes "natural medicine" dangerous, not just their biological effects or compositions.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches.
Post by monty on Mar 23^rd, 2008, 10:40am

on 03/22/08 at 17:09:51, Annette wrote:

As a consumer, if you take a medication prescribed by a registered doctor and something bad happens to you, you are covered both by the insurance of the manufacturing pharmaceutical company as well as the doctors' indemnity insurance. My insurance covers my patient up to 10M per person in case of mishap.

Do you get any insurance at all buying and consuming natural herbs from a herbalist ? No.

Let compare 2 real cases that have been published on the newspapers here.

Lets compare that to the case of Trasylol (aprotinin), a medicine from Bayer that is used to prevent blood clotting. The manufacturers with held information about side effects for decades, and even as the evidence started to mount, the government regulators were reluctant to pull approval.

Some doctors have estimated that trasylol has resulted in the deaths of 22,000 people. Where is the insurance that you speak of? Are they really going to identify the thousands of people injured or killed and make right with them or their survivors financially? I find that hard to believe.

Don't know how it is in Oz, but here, doctors and pharmaceutical companies have insurance to protect themselves, not their patients. Patients that are injured generally need to file a lawsuit, which is a drawn out process of fighting. It is exceeding rare to find a doctor, hospital or drug manufacturer that will admit error and voluntarily pay reparations. Most medical errors are swept under the rug with the hopes that patients will give up.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches.
Post by Annette on Mar 23^rd, 2008, 5:50pm

on 03/23/08 at 10:40:20, monty wrote:

Don't know how it is in Oz, but here, doctors and pharmaceutical companies have insurance to protect themselves, not their patients. Patients that are injured generally need to file a lawsuit, which is a drawn out process of fighting. It is exceeding rare to find a doctor, hospital or drug manufacturer that will admit error and voluntarily pay reparations. Most medical errors are swept under the rug with the hopes that patients will give up.

The indemnity insurance is set up to protect patients not the doctors. If the cases are handled wrong then its the fault of the legal system, not of the doctors or the reason behind having insurance in the first place.

Your whole argument is incorrect. You are saying just because there are cases where the people dont get paid out that the whole insurance system should be discounted as invalid. That is not right.

If I am driving my car on the road, I would prefer to drive where other drivers and cars all have insurance, if that is possible. If and when an accident does happen, whether or not my claim will be successful depends on a whole lot of other factors. However, I would be at least having a chance of getting some compensation, compared to driving my car where no one has any insurance whatsoever.

In Australia, most cases are handled out of court to reduce cost. Most cases receive a pay out as long as there is real injuries or damages, even when the doctor isnt really at fault.

One case I know of, involving my colleague. His patient had neck pain but didnt want to take medication for it. He asked the doctor about alternative treatment and the doctor referred him to a chiropractor. Unfortunately the chiropractor did the wrong thing on the 3rd treatment, snapped his neck and caused permanent nerve damage as well as a slipped disc. The chiropractor didnt have insurance so he skipped town. The referral doctor was sued instead and had to pay out a substantial amount ( I dont know exactly how much ) because " he should have followed procedures and trialled some medication before referring to alternative treatments" and that " he should have checked that the chiropractor he referred the patient to was reputable and practicisng with insurance". The doctor was advised by the Judge that although the above expectation of a referral doctor is not fair, the patient had suffered permanent damages which could have been avoided, had the doctor followed strict procedural rules instead of what the patient requested, therefore he should be compensated.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Charlotte on Mar 23^rd, 2008, 6:29pm

The dr's here have to have insurance to protect themselves.

Thank you, Paul, for researching and trying this. Right now, I am also one who is interested in something else to try when my current meds stop working.

Thank you, Annette. I did have the info printed out to take to my neuro to discuss, but your points got my attention. I need to do more reading.

Charlotte

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches.
Post by monty on Mar 23^rd, 2008, 7:37pm

on 03/23/08 at 17:50:12, Annette wrote:

Your whole argument is incorrect. You are saying just because there are cases where the people dont get paid out that the whole insurance system should be discounted as invalid.

No, I am saying that your argument does not apply to most of the world. In the US, the liability insurance companies are paid by the doctors and pharmaceutical companies, and they represent the doctors and corporations, not the patients. It's not that the insurance system here (and presumably in many other countries, I don't know) fails from time to time - the way things are set up, it would be a conflict of interest for them to care much about the patient. So when a patient accuses a doctor of malpractice, the insurance companies try to undermine their credibility, or drag the matter out for as many years as possible.

And you seem to be dodging my point - this month, we find that perhaps 20,000 people were killed when a pharmaceutical company with held information indicting its (very profitable) product. It wasn't long ago that we heard that another pharmaceutical company caused an estimated 100,000 heart attacks (estimated 1/3 to 1/2 of them fatal) when it concealed information about their product so it would stay on the market. It seems to me that both the alternative and mainstream medical systems are corrupt, as they both involve human beings and greed.

How many peer-refereed medical journal articles are out there on using taurine or red-bull for managing cluster headache and migraine? How many on kudzu?? The emphasis really seems to be focused on developing new triptans or some other medicine that can be patented and sold for thousands of dollars per patient per year. It's great to say "ask your doctor" about alternatives, but for the most part, they are not informed and not interested.

Title: Re: Rhodiola stops my headaches. <-IMPORTANT
Post by Charlotte on Mar 23^rd, 2008, 9:09pm

I do take info to my neuro, doc, & pharmacist, and discussed kudzu with all of them before I went on it. It worked for me for 14 months. I used a liquid form with grain alcohol, but the company stopped making it and other forms and brands did not work for me.

Fortunately, around this time verapamil did start working for me. My doc did not want me to try verap again as I had had a virus and a heart abnormality was discovered a year ago, but the neuro eased my dosage up to 320 mg, and then refused to let me go higher, even though I really wanted more, lol. It has been working for 14 months. I dread when it stops.

I only discussed Red Bull with my neuro and he monitors my usage and so far approves it. I also discussed wormwood and some other herbs with him before using them, and also let him know when I stopped using them.

When I am about to try something new, I carry the literature with me and have all my medical contacts read it or just discuss it if they are already familiar. I have found pharmacists to be extremely helpful, and a resource which is often overlooked.

Charlotte