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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
        
(Message started by: otakuhouse on Feb 6th, 2008, 7:15pm)
Title: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by otakuhouse on Feb 6th, 2008, 7:15pm
Sorry if this is old news, i found this completely on accident as it has nothing to do with cluster headaches... But very interesting nonetheless as it describes imaging of brains being given 100% oxygen and what was found...

"All this activity awakened the hypothalamus, which regulates heart rate and hormonal outflow. Activation of the hypothalamus triggered a cascade of harmful reactions and released chemicals that can injure the brain and heart.

"Several brain areas responded to 100 per cent oxygen by kicking the hypothalamus into overdrive," explained Harper. "The hypothalamus overreacted by dumping a massive flood of hormones and neurotransmitters into the bloodstream. These chemicals interfere with the heart's ability to pump blood and deliver oxygen – the opposite effect you want when you're trying to resuscitate someone."

http://www.medicexchange.com/mall/departmentpage.cfm/MedicExchangeUSA/_0/1617/departments-contentview
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Ray on Feb 6th, 2008, 8:27pm
Dear Otakuhouse:

This was news to me!  The article would seem that it misses the mark for most cluster victims.  The sample was composed of only a few children.  The vasoconstriction is necessary to abort our headaches, adding the CO2 negated that effect.  Apparently our hypothalmus misfunctions, who knows what effects it has on us?

I would like to see a peer reviewed study with cluster headache victims.

With best wishes,

Ray
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Gena on Feb 6th, 2008, 8:30pm
To begin with a person with clusterheadacheds has a messed up hypothalamus. So I am not sure that this infomation would apply.

If you do not have a problem with your hypothalamus I could see how it might be harmful.

Just like anything else if you are not diabetic and you take insulin it would be bad for you.
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by vietvet2tours on Feb 6th, 2008, 8:48pm

on 02/06/08 at 19:15:15, otakuhouse wrote:
Sorry if this is old news, i found this completely on accident as it has nothing to do with cluster headaches... But very interesting nonetheless as it describes imaging of brains being given 100% oxygen and what was found...

"All this activity awakened the hypothalamus, which regulates heart rate and hormonal outflow. Activation of the hypothalamus triggered a cascade of harmful reactions and released chemicals that can injure the brain and heart.

"Several brain areas responded to 100 per cent oxygen by kicking the hypothalamus into overdrive," explained Harper. "The hypothalamus overreacted by dumping a massive flood of hormones and neurotransmitters into the bloodstream. These chemicals interfere with the heart's ability to pump blood and deliver oxygen – the opposite effect you want when you're trying to resuscitate someone."

http://www.medicexchange.com/mall/departmentpage.cfm/MedicExchangeUSA/_0/1617/departments-contentview


    Yer fishin.

   potter
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by otakuhouse on Feb 6th, 2008, 9:06pm
I stumbled upon this completely by acccident googling something hypothalamus related.

I believe any and all information even if not applicable to our condition is of assistance in the larger picture of what exactly is going on. And something about the effect of o2 upon the hypothalamus may reveal something, especially as we still don't know exactly why o2 helps... We know it vasoconstricts, and reduces bloodflow to the brain etc.

Perhaps this would indicate that our hypothalamus' during cycles are in an opposite state - far too low activity and the kick up from pure o2 helps put it into a normal state as opposed to an overdriven state?

But i'm also hazy and unclear about everything given the hell of a beast ridden day i had. Six attacks, one kip 10.

If I read the guide right about o2 though this all makes sense... Intereference of blood flow to brain.
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by AlienSpaceGuy on Feb 6th, 2008, 11:31pm
I can't belive what this article says.

IMHO, somebody goofed in a gigantic way by dropping a decimal point.

Five percent carbon dioxide in breathing air is something nobody should be exposed to.

Here a few numbers about CO2:

0.03% - is the normal concentration in fresh air

0.5% - Lung ventilation increases by 5%. This is the maximum safe working level recommended for an 8 hour working day in industry.

2.0% - Lung ventilation increases by 50%. Accumulation of CO2 in the body will disturb body function by causing the tissue fluids to become too acidic.

3.0% - Lung ventilation increases by 100%. Prolonged exposure will cause dizziness, headaches and possibly vision disturbance.

4.5% is approximately the carbon dioxide content of exhaled breath. From this follows if the inhaled gas contains already 5% you're uptaking CO2 instead of getting rid of it.

10% and more - Will cause in a few minutes unconsciousness and suffocation without warning.


Conclusion: Adding 5% carbon dioxide to the mixture to breath in is either a scheme of Dr. Mengele or an unforgivable typo.
In either way, it makes the whole article and its conclusions worthless.


                 [smiley=smokin.gif]
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Linda_Howell on Feb 6th, 2008, 11:41pm


Thank you Ueli.

Between you and Bob Johnson the rest of us couldn't have a better team in deciphering scientific data.

Linda
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by MJ on Feb 7th, 2008, 1:57am
I agree with Alien Guy had to be a typo, yet informative all the same

A Lack of CO2 in the body does have its issues though and the suggested wash out in the article with pure oxygen (Haldane effect I think its called) can exacerbate some many problems.

For some of us however, me in particular, this may help explain why pure oxygen vastly increases the intensity of the pain of CH.
And why it doesnt help some others as well.


on 02/06/08 at 19:15:15, otakuhouse wrote:
"All this activity awakened the hypothalamus, which regulates heart rate and hormonal outflow. Activation of the hypothalamus triggered a cascade of harmful reactions and released chemicals

"Several brain areas responded to 100 per cent oxygen by kicking the hypothalamus into overdrive," explained Harper. "The hypothalamus overreacted by dumping a massive flood of hormones and neurotransmitters into the bloodstream. These chemicals interfere with the heart's ability to pump blood and deliver oxygen."

http://www.medicexchange.com/mall/departmentpage.cfm/MedicExchangeUSA/_0/1617/departments-contentview
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Bob P on Feb 7th, 2008, 6:50am
The percentages of CO2 above are based on being in atmospheric conditions, i.e.21% oxygen.  Can higher levels of CO2 be tolerated if the % of O2 is higher, 100%?
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Paul98 on Feb 7th, 2008, 8:47am

on 02/06/08 at 23:31:00, AlienSpaceGuy wrote:
I can't belive what this article says.

IMHO, somebody goofed in a gigantic way by dropping a decimal point.

Five percent carbon dioxide in breathing air is something nobody should be exposed to.

Here a few numbers about CO2:

0.03% - is the normal concentration in fresh air

0.5% - Lung ventilation increases by 5%. This is the maximum safe working level recommended for an 8 hour working day in industry.

2.0% - Lung ventilation increases by 50%. Accumulation of CO2 in the body will disturb body function by causing the tissue fluids to become too acidic.

3.0% - Lung ventilation increases by 100%. Prolonged exposure will cause dizziness, headaches and possibly vision disturbance.

4.5% is approximately the carbon dioxide content of exhaled breath. From this follows if the inhaled gas contains already 5% you're uptaking CO2 instead of getting rid of it.

10% and more - Will cause in a few minutes unconsciousness and suffocation without warning.


Conclusion: Adding 5% carbon dioxide to the mixture to breath in is either a scheme of Dr. Mengele or an unforgivable typo.
In either way, it makes the whole article and its conclusions worthless.


                 [smiley=smokin.gif]


I agree.  Something fishy with 5% CO2.  At that level you are changing blood pH and I doubt you could physically tollerate breathing it in.  I have used 5% CO2 in my tissue culture incubators and getting a wiff of the chamber instantly makes you gag.  The feeling is similar to taking a sip from a glass of corbonated beverage and having a slug of the CO2 hit your airways.

-P.
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2008, 9:31am
Otakuhousesan,

Interesting study the folks at UCLA conducted, but be careful not to mix apples and oranges...  or to site one study supporting one thesis when there may be many others supporting a similar but opposite thesis.  In this particular case, there is no question that elevating or depressing the partial pressures of O2 and CO2 in the arterial blood flow (hyperoxia/hypoxia) and (hypercapnia/hypocapnia) have pronounced effects on cerebral blood flow.  

Physiology 101 will tell you that changing levels of O2 and CO2 work exactly opposite of each other as vasoactive substances when elevated above or depressed below normal levels.  O2 in elevated concentrations is a vasoconstrictor and CO2 is a vasodilator.  My knowledge of the endocrine system is dated and weak so there's no reason to doubt the statement that 100% oxygen could trigger a flood of hormones...  However, without any specific examples, it is difficult to say what hormones are involved or what effect they may have.

Having said that, I read the article you cited along with several references to it and there was a clear lack of statistically significant clinical study data to back up the claims.  The article also stated: "But no one has ever scanned patients' brains to examine how they respond to oxygen therapy."  This statement is clearly not true and it only indicates that professor Harper, MD and his team at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA ,who ran this study, did a poor job researching the topic.  It's either that or the good professor was out to capture new grant money to finance additional research.  Remember, some neurologists, in particular, noted university professors of neurology, tend to be egocentric and think very highly of themselves.  

I can show you several studies where a combination hyperoxia and hypercapnia (CO2 levels above normal) resulted in changes in cerebral blood flow. This was well documented with enhanced MRI cerebral imaging techniques in a 2003 study:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/95/6/2453#BIBL  

Figure 1. from this study shown below clearly illustrates the effects of 100% O2 and varying levels of CO2 on cerebral blood flow.  It also shows what will happen when an O2 non-rebreather mask inhalation valve malfunctions and exhaled breath enters the reservoir bag causing an elevated CO2 level in the bloodstream that prevents an abort.  In short, a relatively minor elevation of CO2 partial pressure in the blood stream totally negates the abortive effects of high concentrations of O2.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m236/petebatch/O2-CO2_Effect_On_CBF.jpg

I can also show you additional studies that clearly illustrate that a combination hyperoxia and hyperventilation (hypocapnia) on 100% O2 results in a decrease cerebral vascular blood flow but an elevated level of oxygenation of brain tissue.  Please see:

http://www.cja-jca.org/cgi/content/abstract/41/11/1041

Where the punch line reads: "We conclude that hyperoxia during acute hyperventilation in the anaesthetized patient improves oxygen delivery to the brain as measured by increased cerebral venous oxygen content and saturation."

Physiology 101 will also tell you that CO2 is the primary stimulus of respiration, not the partial pressure of oxygen.  "A minute increase of about 0.25 percent alveolar carbon dioxide will lead to a 100 percent increase in pulmonary ventilation rate."  (US Navy Flight Surgeon's Manual).

So, if you are using CPR to revive an hypoxic patient that has stopped breathing and the goal is to stimulate spontaneous respiration and heart beat, a mix of 2% to 4% CO2 and 98% to 96% Oxygen would likely be more effective than 100% Oxygen.

However, if you're trying to abort a cluster headache attack while fully conscious and breathing normally, 100% oxygen is far superior in bringing an end to the pain than air or any other mix of O2 and CO2.

I hope this helps.

V/R, Batch
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by thomas on Feb 7th, 2008, 9:54am
Glad you came along on this one, Pete.
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 7th, 2008, 9:59am
I was about to say what Batch said...umm...yeah...and I had all the cool pictures too..........damn pete, you rock! [smiley=bow.gif]

Guiseppi
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 7th, 2008, 11:08am

Quote:
they inhaled 100 per cent oxygen through a mouthpiece, and monitored their breathing and heart rates. After waiting eight minutes for the youngsters' breathing to return to normal, ...

"When the children inhaled pure oxygen, their breathing quickened,...


In the countless times I've used it, I am unaware of any abnormal or quickened breathing while using oxygen, and can readily fall asleep afterwards, in fact the major reason for cutting off the strap.  
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by otakuhouse on Feb 9th, 2008, 8:23pm
just for the record...

i didn't post this at all in believing that pure o2 is bad for us. it most obviously is a massive and probably the best therapy for the majority of ch'ers.

what i am interested in is the hypothalamus and anything that would add to the literature of exactly what triggers it to have certain reactions. obviously very complicated.

given how little modern medicine can deal with nerves, it's my hope that someday we can isolate the trigger in the hypothalamus as opposed to taking a battery of meds that happen to coincidentally assist our condition.
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 10th, 2008, 11:55am
No worries. This is EXACTLY  the forum to post something like that article. It's how we invesigate new ideas, squelch incorrect information, and in doing so help a boat load of people! This provided a forum for some great discussions on oxygen! ;)

Guiseppi
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by Beastfodder on Feb 12th, 2008, 3:58pm
Curry can have a bad effect on my arse.

Still works for me and so does O2 and CH.  

That I think is a more tenable link than anything this article has to do with O2 relieving a CH attack.  
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by StressFree on Feb 14th, 2008, 4:32pm
I'm surprised no body commented on this: "Three brain structures suddenly lit up: the hippocampus, which helps control blood pressure; the cingulate cortex, which regulates pain perception and blood pressure; and the insula, which monitors physical and emotional stress." I think it is a great article. We need to learn more how these complex parts of the brain and associated chemicals and hormones help, harm, or cause our condition. I don't think the pure 02 is doing any harm to mainly healthy adults using it for short periods of time. The interesting stuff is in the details!
Title: Re: Pure 02's (bad) effect on hypothalamus
Post by superhawk2300 on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:26am
Odd I would see this today. I can relate to the part where is talks about speeding up hormone release. I know a bit about hormones and the effects in the body so today while I was working I notices I suddenly became very very "happy" without any apparent reason.

So I got to thinking why that would be. I am on a few medications that also change hormonal levels in my body but my last few doctors appointments have been cancelled due to the storms when have been having so I missed my treatments, which mean I should be less "happy" not more "happy" and suddenly out of no where.

Then I got to thinking about my cycle, when it started, and all of the "happiness sharing" or "bothering of my wife with my happiness" I've been doing lately.

I can honestly say I've never hit the O2 as hard as I am this cycle and I'm either having an attack and aborting it with as much O2 as I can or I am "bothering my wife".

From my experience I think there may be something to that part of the article.


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