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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Adding to the RC seed testimonies
        
(Message started by: CC_stole_my_Harte on Aug 7^th, 2007, 10:12am)

Title: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Aug 7^th, 2007, 10:12am

Chris started the seeds last night. We crushed up his first dose and let it sit in water for 3 hours. We also crushed up about 20 seeds into a fine dust to take with him for abortives. We measured out 3-5 seeds is just a pinch of dust. As far as his side effects go, he barely fealt like he had anything going on. He said it fealt like he had a glass of wine. So I think in 5 days we will bump up his dose to 30 to try and abort this cycle. He didn't have a ha last night and hasn't had one yet this morning. Which is great because he's been chasing the demon off by running and when he fights him off, he seems to want to keep coming back until he's reached at least an 8. So I will keep you fine folks updated.

Jamie

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by K-MAN on Aug 7^th, 2007, 10:24am

Jamie and Chris,

That's good news. ANY relief is good news. Please let us know how things go so we can compare notes.

K-MAN

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Aug 9^th, 2007, 9:38am

So it's been since monday and still PF!!! I am so excited! ;;D Chris drives two hours to practice with his band on friday nights so I want him to dose again tonight. After the way he reacted last time (VERY mild side effects) I'm hoping around 30 seeds will knock out the beast tonight. Also, he had some shadows tuesday night but said that he just went to sleep and they were gone... THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE! Every time he's gotten the remnants of a ha, it's always gone full blown. So that tells me that SOMETHING is working right!

I think I could dance right now! [smiley=shore.gif]

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by nani on Aug 9^th, 2007, 9:52am

Hi Jamie. I'm happy that Chris has seen positive results with seeds. This is just my opinion...

If he's been almost completely pain free since his dose, why dose again tonight? I am of the opinion, that the reason these treatments work so well is because less is more. If he has some crushed for aborts... he should be fine Friday night. If things continue to go well, he can just start monthly prevent doses, so his next cycle can be avoided.
Now, if he starts getting worse, of course, he should dose again.

I broke a 5 year chronic cycle 2 years ago, using these treatments. I'm convinced that part of the reason it works so well for me is that I don't dose often, and I don't have to use much "medicine".
Thanks for being a good supporter. :)

continued pf wishes to Chris, nani

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Aug 9^th, 2007, 9:56am

So you think that if his ha's come back while he's out of town this weekend and he only uses the small abortive doses that it won't waste what he's done already? I was under the impression that you have to dose again (at least twice) before they come back. Keep in mind that he has to be on his game on the weekends and can't dose while he's gone. If the ha's come back this weekend and he doesn't dose again until sunday night will it still be as effective in ending this cycle. Thanks for the info, I'm still learning about all of this stuff :)

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by nani on Aug 9^th, 2007, 10:06am

Nothing will be wasted. Anecdotal evidence suggests it works best with a minimum of 5 days between doses. Should he start getting hit again, he can use the aborts for the individual attacks and dose again when he returns.
Often, it takes more than one dose to end a cycle, but not always.
Does he have or use any other aborts? Like oxygen, or RedBull? It's always a good thing to have more than one weapon in our arsenal.

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by karma on Aug 9^th, 2007, 10:20am

Hi Jamie,
Nani is right on ( Hi Nani ;)
If he gets hit abort with the seeds. If he dosn't get hit then it' smooth sailing. Keep the Red Bull Handy for the shadows but don't be afraid to give it a good slap if it looks like the hit is coming.

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by nani on Aug 9^th, 2007, 10:34am

on 08/09/07 at 10:20:24, karma wrote:

Hi Nani ;)

Hi Robbie! :-*

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Aug 9^th, 2007, 11:07am

Cool, I'd like him to use these the least ammount possible. Red Bull doesn't work for him and he's had a hard time getting an O2 pre. since he was 6, plus he's got no health insurance right now (job doesn't offer it and we can't afford for him to have the expensive personal insurance). It helps if he runs them off, but they come back 4 hours later. So we will see if the seeds work for abortives (fingers crossed) and will try the seeds again on sunday night when he comes home :)

Thanks guys you are the best.

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by K-MAN on Aug 10^th, 2007, 11:24am

Jamie,

Chris may want to consider taking a break from the exercise during a cycle. I'm a lap swimmer, and every time I swim during a cluster cycle, I get hit about 45 minutes afterward. Same story if I avoid the cardio workout and just go lift weights, but the attacks hit several hours later after being in the weight room. It's entirely predictable.

I don't understand why this is the case. The first few years I had cluster headaches, the doctors all told me to continue exercising no matter what. Neither of us realized it was making the attacks more frequent. As much as I hate being out of the lap pool for 6 weeks, it's the best thing. I have far fewer attacks during the same time period if I just lay off for a while.

You must be getting advice from all angles at this point, but I thought you might want to consider this. We're all different, so you'll have to find out if this holds true for you.

K-MAN

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by Xenoz on Aug 10^th, 2007, 7:16pm

Not sure how it works for LSA, but with LSD and shrooms, there is no point taking additional quantities for at least 4 - 5 days after the first amount (regardless of how small the initial amount was). I would assume LSA works similarly.

(Which is part of the reason that these substances could be called "counter-addictive", since they don't work for a few days after first use).

This apparently is because the receptors in the brain that are affected by these substances rapidly "close" after a certain period of time (perhaps 20 - 45 minutes), and will then accept no more. They apparently stay closed for a few days, gradually opening up again after 4 - 5 days.

In other words, if you were to take one seed now, then 100 seeds in two hours, you probably would get absolutely no effect from the 100, only the 1.

Similarly, if you were to take seeds daily, they'd probably only have any effect once or twice per week.

Of course, this is only based on what little I know, and could be inaccurate, but it makes sense to me and seems to be backed up by anecdotal reports. I know that in my younger experimental years, I took a recreational dose of shrooms, had a great time, and decided to do it again about three days later. Same amount of shrooms, but markedly reduced effects. (In fact, the only reason I tried shrooms in the first place for my clusters, after hearing about them, was because I realized that the only time I had been cluster-free for more than one year since they started when I was 15 was during the time I was occasionally shrooming)

And of course, it is theoretically possible that the medicinal benefit of LSA/etc is derived from entirely different receptors than the ones that elicit psychotropic effects, meaning that more frequent small doses could possibly be effective. (If this were the case, it would actually be very good news - a tiny amount of LSA/etc could be administered on day 1 to close the psychotropic receptors (with negligible effect on the clusters and no noticable psychotropic effects), then administered in a much larger quantity on day 2 (with maximal effect on the clusters, but still no noticable psychotropic effects due to those receptors being closed). But this is only a theoretical possibility, and probably is not the case (would be nice though).

These substances are also supposedly far less effective if other cluster medications are being taken (particularly brain meds such as Imitrex), which is why it is recommended to "detox" from other medications for at least 5 days before seeds (or shrooms/etc) for best results.

I will be trying RC for the first time tonight - 15 seeds to start.

-Xenoz

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by tommyD on Aug 11^th, 2007, 7:22am

Xenoz -

The "closed door" or "slam the door" effect might not be that cut and dried. I have seen reports of recreational use from folks who say they can trip on subsequent days with little tolerance build-up. The time periods can vary as well.

And some are starting to suspect that LSA might not have the same slam-the-door effect as LSD and psilocybin. But so far that's just a suspicion.

There is also an apparent minimum dosage needed to slam the door.

Many have used the sput or sip techniques (very small doses) technique as abortive or daily preventive and found that the small does did not seem to reduce the effects of a larger dose taken in the next day or so. Just what that minimum dose is would be impossible to determine except for yourself.

Quote:

And of course, it is theoretically possible that the medicinal benefit of LSA/etc is derived from entirely different receptors than the ones that elicit psychotropic effects, meaning that more frequent small doses could possibly be effective.

It's also theoretically possible there is a chemical out there that will fit the right receptors to stop clusters and not cause the psychotropic effects...

-tommyD

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by MJ on Aug 12^th, 2007, 2:36am

First glad to hear results showing through with the seeds Jamie and Chris.

TommyD and others.

Just like you state regarding the differences with recreational users. Its the same with clusterheads.

We all have different headaches, some more or less pain, some differing lengths of attacks and differing frequencies of attack. Even variable time lengths between attacks. Mine have allways been allmost completely predictable at time and scale with no variations at all.

A "theory" I have been trying to find words for on the LSA and psylocibin dosing and the "closed door effect".

Being a non scientist here goes.

As many know I have been able to redose with RC seeds after only 6 hours (I try to wait 12) with full abortive effects. This to break a cycle. For others this seems impossible.
What I dont seem to get is any of the repeating hallucinogenic effects.

I can verify with my own experimentation that the closed door effect does happen and no additional benefit of the seeds is realized for me in that 6 hr period.

I have to wonder, like Xenoz states and the beliefs of many, that perhaps the focus is too much on the recreational or stoning aspect of the buster treatments which all previous experimentation was based on. This may be an aspect of the treatment that needs to go away for true medicinal value and research.
In other words once a hallucinogenic effect has been had it may not need to return for those who have benefit with these treatments if dosing on a regular basis.

Maybe the stoning effect is accomplished by blocking the same receptors as CH and the chemical or whatever we fight is blocked. While the receptor tubes (lack of a better word) behind the receptors drain off one can get the hallucinogenic effects. If the receptors remain blocked some of those same chems that cause CH stay away as well.

Look no more for the hallucinogenic effect following an initial dose as that effect may say that subsequent dosing is failing or too far apart.

So the theory is that if one can maintain that closed door effect with a continual gentle pressure problem solved.

Of course that opening door time must be definatively found to keep it closed, or know when to dose again without any hallucinogenic effects.

This explains why more frequent dosing may be needed initially and as our receptors become trained we can slowly lengthen the time between dosing.

on 08/11/07 at 07:22:29, tommyD wrote:

Xenoz -

The "closed door" or "slam the door" effect might not be that cut and dried. I have seen reports of recreational use from folks who say they can trip on subsequent days with little tolerance build-up. The time periods can vary as well.

It's also theoretically possible there is a chemical out there that will fit the right receptors to stop clusters and not cause the psychotropic effects...

-tommyD

Title: Re: Adding to the RC seed testimonies
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Aug 17^th, 2007, 9:50am

So much good info!

Chris dosed again this past sunday when he got home from band practice. He said while he was out there he tried the seed powder to abort a strong shadow, but he said they did not work. He's been getting strong shadows right before and after he doses, but never a full ha. Which tells me that something is working because he's never gotten a shadow with no cluster to follow. We are so grateful for all of the advice on here!