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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
        
(Message started by: swiftlaw on Jul 16^th, 2007, 3:00pm)

Title: Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
Post by swiftlaw on Jul 16^th, 2007, 3:00pm

The horror returns. Honestly I seem to forget how horrible the ch's are when I'm not in cycle.

I am asking for support and confirmation and offer my report for what ever it may serve.

Out of cycle for 18 months - the longest remission in 15 years. I used mushrooms last cycle and it ended shortly after the experience. I really don't remember much abnout the specifics. I will from now on keep a journal.

Here's what happend now - I am 2 weeks into my cycle - ch Kip 6 to 8 once a day at night week one, then 2 times a night with shadows in the day. Normal cycle peaks at 4 a day ( 2 at night and 2 in daylight) with the peak cycle activity ending up in at least one ER visit or paramedics at house to keep me from hurting myself or scaring my family too much.

I have had shrooms in my freezer for a year - I dosed at day seven this cycle ( 1 week ago) approx 14 grams of "wet" shrooms taken by using the "Pink One's" tea recipe. Little relief the first use - back to cycle in 4 days. Yesterday I dosed again and was more thorough in the making of the tea ( longer brewing time) Had a level 3 trip - visuals- blending walls - etc. Not really my idea of fun anymore.

Afte the dose wore off ( 6 hours) I had an immediate Kip 7 for the normal duration ( 45 minutes by the clock) - Took no meds - and with a one hour break had another Kip 7 with a half an hour shorter duration. This subsided into a "headache" that stayed with me all night. I slept for 20 minutes here and there but pain did not dissipate untill 9 am. The "headache" that lingered was different in character - pain in entire top of head ( I am a righty esclusivley most pain in temporal region and into neck and jaw)

A sense of clarity from the dissipation of the pain has emerged and I am working today hoping that - this day and night will pass PF.

I will get back on Verapamil and start my wellbutrin again as I have no more shrooms and really have had enough pschedylics for an old geezer for now in any event.

Does this resonate with any one ? I look for hope I guess. If interested I will follow up again in a few days. Feedback and support from this forum always a real honor and priveledge - - my gratitude for you all is undiminished.

Title: Re: Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
Post by pattik on Jul 16^th, 2007, 4:32pm

I was confused by your description of a "wet" dose. If by that you meant 14 g. of fresh psilo, that may have been a pretty light weight dose, based on the wet to dry weight ratio. But you did get a four day break. The hits you had after your second dose are not uncommon, including the change in character. Often things will settle down a bit after that. Let's hope that you broke the cycle completely with your second dose. If you haven't yet gone back to the Verapamil, you might want to consider maintenance dosing with RC or HBW seeds. Here is a link to some information on this.
http://www.clusterbusters.com/faqlsa.htm

Good luck, and let us know how things progress.

Pat

Title: Re: Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
Post by Xenoz on Jul 16^th, 2007, 7:32pm

I had a very similar experience to yours. I have had CH's since I was 15 (now 33), always once or twice a year, 1.5 - 3 months per episode. Until two and a half years ago... After my cycle ended, I waited about two months, then took a preventative dose of shrooms (1/3 recreational dose). I repeated this every 4 months and remained CH free (with no shadows or symptoms) until three weeks ago.

Here's where I believe I went wrong, and maybe why it's not working for you. My last preventative dose (three months ago) had been in the freezer for almost a year - it was from the identical batch I had taken the last two times. Although I still felt the effects (level 2), in retrospect the last dose was not quite as intense or "clean" feeling.

I believe that the psychoactive ingredients in shrooms decay over time - even in the freezer, although freezing them slows the decay down. Just because something is frozen doesn't mean that all chemical activity / decay stops. The molecules are still moving, only a lot slower.

Anyway, my cycle started back up about 3 weeks ago.

I have never tried using shrooms to *abort* a cycle, but have had what I deem full success in using them as a preventative. Word has it that aborting a cycle can take a few tries, and often requires a higher quantity to be effective.

My rule of thumb from now on (after this cycle ends) will be to take a preventative dose every 3 months, 1/2 a recreational dose, and be sure that my meds are no more than 3 months old. I just can't risk getting these back again.

I have ordered some RC seeds (which I have never tried before) which should arrive any day - but need to wait to detox from prednisone first (have miserably tapered from 60mg to 30mg, but I think my body's getting used to the concept that it's going to have to go with less and less, then none). I'm hoping the RC seeds will break this cycle, as I have no safe, viable means of getting safe, viable shrooms right now.

Perhaps you should look into RC seeds - I can't vouch for them personally, but from what I've read they're at least worth a try for me, and can be ordered online (I ordered them yesterday from ethnogarden, to be delivered by Fed Ex, and I have the tracking number today.) And I figure if they don't work for me, they'll make for some nice annuals for my garden.

Don't forget at the doctor's to request an oxygen tank and a non-rebreather mask - you'll need to ask for 15 liters per minute (they'll suggest 10, but I think all regulators with 10L/m go up to 15) and specifically ask for a non-rebreather mask (the O2 place won't give you one unless it's specicially written on the Rx). You can also ask for an Rx for Imitrex (20mg nasal spray and/or 6mg injection). Get one for both. You don't need to fill them, but if you decide you'll need to, you won't have to go to the Dr. again. Imitrex works almost flawlessly for me - but it makes me feel crappy and out of it the next day so it's my last resort.

If you can catch the CH right at the start, you may be able to abort quite a few of your attacks. My rule of thumb is if I wake up at night with the hint of one coming on, or even if I just have to go to the bathroom and feel no pain (yet), I will immediately suck on some oxygen for a few minutes (inhaling and exhaling as deeply and quickly as possible) to make sure it's not going to start coming on. I keep my oxygen tank in the bathroom - I simply sit to pee (which for some reason takes me three times longer than standing) and suck on oxygen for a few minutes. If I'm still PF after peeing, I'm safe. If I'm in any pain I keep on the oxygen for 10 - 15 minutes. If it's getting worse, I stop the oxygen and do something else, such as take a brisk walk, pace, drink lots of coffee, stretch, whatever works (last resort is Imitrex nasal spray if my sinuses are clear enough or an Imitrex shot if they're not).

Best of luck!

-Xenoz

Title: Re: Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
Post by swiftlaw on Jul 16^th, 2007, 9:23pm

Thanks Pat and Xenos for your thoughtful and thorough replys.

I have heard once from a doctor familiar with clusters that there is a theory that the pain of an attack itself is the only true mechanism of relief. Essentially that there are a specific number of headaches that we must go throught to finish a cycle. This I have found that O2 merely postpones the attack and prednisone the same.

I just live in dread. I will keep a current response here to share the result of my last shroom dose. Thank you.

Title: Re: Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
Post by Xenoz on Jul 16^th, 2007, 10:48pm

Hi Swiftlaw,

I used to personally believe the identical theory you proposed - that an episodic cycle had a certain amount of "pain" (as if it were a fixed quantity of liquid, perhaps), and you had to endure it, one way or another, to get through the cycle. That no matter how often you tried to abort it, it would end up "working its way out". It was easy to fall into this theory because no matter what I would do during a cycle, the CH's would ramp up, and whenever I found something that seemed to work, they would seem to squeeze out from my grasp like a partially deflated balloon in one's clenched fist - to morph like the "Borg" - to learn - to evolve. Of course, this was before I even knew I had cluster headaches, or knew about oxygen, etc, etc.

But I now believe I was very wrong.

Consider this - if a cycle has a certain fixed quantity of "pain juice", then perhaps the best way of dealing with it would be to activate triggers to squeeze all that juice out faster. Drink a shot of whiskey three times a day. Then during each attack, remain perfectly still while lying down listening to loud irritating music while staring at a strobe light. Perhaps take vasodilators to boot. And eat lots of nitrate-rich foods to really get things going. And anything else to make the pain worse.

But I think it's very safe to say that the (obviously ridiculous) method would certainly not end a cycle sooner - rather, it would most certainly extend the cycle, make it far worse, and possibly move it from episodic to chronic. In other words, the method above would "increase the amount of juice". Therefore, it should be equally possible to "reduce the amount of juice" by taking the opposite, abortive approach. Thus, holding this reverse thinking to be logical, there isn't a specific amount of "pain" to work through.

Rather, I believe it's an imbalance caused by the hypothalamus getting knocked off-kilter (similar to a gyroscope being knocked off plane), resulting in periodic cyclical "contractions" of the hypothalamus (for lack of a better word) to try to balance itself (similar perhaps to the regular contractions of menstruation, labor, hiccups, shivering, and various other biological processes that turn on and off at various rates). Once balanced, the cycle ends. But because CH'ers are prone to having the hypothalamus knocked off balance, the cycle often ends up starting up again at some point in the future.

My new theory is that each attack is the hypothalamus' attempt to balance itself from falling too far in one direction, but as it lurches against the imbalance, it ends up setting itself off in the other direction, passing through pain-free "balance" in the meantime, like a pendulum.

Picture one of those inflatable punching clowns with a weighted bottom - as it comes towards your brain, your brain hits it away with a CH - and it swings back (PF for a time), then swings forward again, so your brain hits it away again with a CH - back and forth - until finally your brain gets tired of hitting it so hard, so it swings back and forth less, until it's finally balanced again.

Looking at this analogy, the key is to prevent your brain from hitting it so hard, so it doesn't swing back as far towards you, so it comes to balance faster. And the way to do that would be to attempt to abort each attack as it comes forward before your brain takes over and smacks it (and you) with a CH.

This would theoretically result in balance within a shorter period of time, less attacks and less pain during each attack.

It's all a bit more complex than this, but I think it's widely accepted that aborting an attack when possible is better than dealing with the full blown CH - if for nothing else, one's sanity.

But there are different methods for aborting an attack. Some methods, for some, may create rebounds or extend cycles. For some, Verapamil or Lithium may help frequency and intensity, but may extend a cycle. For some, prednisone will stop CH's altogether until it's tapered, then it can come back worse for a time. Imitrex/triptans can cause rebounds for some. Not to say that these are not effective methods - everyone has their own different reactions to these meds, some positive, some negative.

However, oxygen is a widely effective method with very few, if any side effects, if used properly, and can be used in conjunction with all other methods. Caffeine (and perhaps taurine) can also be very effective, particularly in conjunction with oxygen. While they won't abort every attack, they can help to reduce the intensity and duration of worse attacks.

In conclusion, you might want to reconsider the veracity of one doctor's theory (which used to be my own theory before I reconsidered!) and consider trying oxygen as an addition to your arsenal. The biggest key is to get on the oxygen immediately at the onset of an attack - it will do little to help once the attack becomes severe.

Best of luck!

-Xenoz

Title: Re: Back after 18 months - Mushroom report
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jul 17^th, 2007, 12:10am

Hello Mr. Swift ;;D

I also used to believe the theory that there was so much pain we all HAD to endure to end a cycle. As if the pain was actually the mechanism that was needed to "right" things."

That was PS...pre-shrooms.

The reason your doc feels that way is probably because no matter what all of his patients had done in the past, none of them were ever able to end a cycle prematurely.
One other reason may be prednisone's notorious reputation for making things worse than they were before the prednisone dose, after you've been on it.
Many people's cycles return more intensely once the prednisone taper has ended. That would make it seem that "one way or the other, you WILL endure this pain. Pay me now of pay me later."

There are only a couple other treatments that have any sort of success in breaking a cycle early. Those would be Histamine Desensitisation and IV DHE. They don't have "great" track records but they have broken cycles early for many people over the years. Psychedelics are now also breaking cycles and extending remission periods.

Therefore, I now have the opposite view on pain itself when it comes to clusters. I believe pain is your enemy in trying to end a cycle early, or even within it's normal cycle. I believe that the pain mechanism actually sets the cycle in deeper. Makes the pain pathways more susceptible to the pain and makes the "wound" deeper and more difficult to heal, so to speak.

One thing that has strengthened this belief is reading hundreds of stories from people that have tried psychedelics. It "seems" to me that the ones most likely to break a cycle are the ones that are most able to control the pain after the doses by using 02 and keeping the after-pain to a minimum. (Realistically, this could mean that it's just easier to control the after-pain for people that the psychedelics work best for, but people that control the pain better on a 2nd try, do seem to do better than when they weren't controlling the after-pain as well.)
Another clue is that if people stay away from known triggers after dosing, like drinking beer, they are much more likely to break the cycle. Set the beast off again with a known trigger and you've restarted the pain pathways. Started the healing process and then ripped off the scab and made them more sensitive again.

None of this has yet been proven medically and it's just a few theories and my feelings based upon talking to so many people that have broken cycles, how they've done it and what things may make it more difficult, or easier to accomplish.

I hope the 2nd dose does the trick or at least settles the cycle down enough that you'd be able to finish it off with some LSA seeds.

Clusters are not an exercise recognised by the American Heart Association. No Pain IS gain. Pain is NOT your friend.

all the best,
Bobw