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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Ayahuasca
        
(Message started by: amos on May 27^th, 2007, 5:25am)

Title: Ayahuasca
Post by amos on May 27^th, 2007, 5:25am

has anyone tried treatment with south america Shamans, the treatment included the Ayahuasca plants. i guess it is like the Mushrooms ..
see attached link:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html

thanks
Amos
:)

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by ClusterChuck on May 27^th, 2007, 6:47am

I never heard of it.

An interesting story!

Thanks for that!

Chuck

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by tommyD on May 27^th, 2007, 7:55am

Ayahuasca is a variable concoction of plant material containing DMT (dimethyl tryptamine) and an MAOI (monoamine oxidase inhibitor) that allows the DMT to be ingested orally. The article says DMT isn't related to LSD, but it is a cousin, and the molecule is very similar to psilocybin.

But as is apparent in the article DMT is a very powerful hallucinogen, and nothing to mess with. This is NOT a recreational drug. Back in the hippie days, DMT was on the streets for a while, in a smoked form that gave a very intense but short-lived trip - 15 to 45 minutes. It was way too scary and intense to catch on as a recreational drug.

Interestingly, DMT is produced natually in the human brain. No one is sure what it's for, but it's thought it might have a function in dreaming and in out-of-body and near-death experiences.

There are a few brief reports of people using DMT to treat clusters with inconclusive results.

Note that each shaman has a different recipe for Ayahuasca, and there are new-age "shaman" out there mixing up brews of any natural source of DMT and any MAOI available, along with who knows what. Since the concentration is unknown, it would be difficult to measure out a sub-hallucinogenic dose, and the presence of any anumber of unknown substances cannot be ruled out.

It would certainly be interesting to see carefully controlled scientific research on DMT, but I wouldn't go chugging down any Ayahuasca to treat clusters.

-tommyD

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by ClusterChuck on May 27^th, 2007, 8:08am

LOL, I wonder what this guy would charge, to take me (us) down there for the treatment?

And would I (we) take a LARGE dose, or a small dose?

Inquiring minds, want to know!

Chuck

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by LeeS on May 27^th, 2007, 9:05am

This topic has fascinated me for some time. See:

http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/09-2006/09-2006-10.htm

http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/09-2006/09-2006-11.htm

... and for further information:

http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/10-2006/10-2006-17.htm

http://www.ouch-us.org/newsletters/10-2006/10-2006-18.htm

-Lee

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by Squanto on May 27^th, 2007, 10:02am

pronounced "eye ya was ka"

Recently I was offered an opportunity to try this (Ayahuasca) as a remedy for my chronic CH.

My initial reaserch (Clusterbusters and lots of other places) led me to conclude that trying this potion isn't "my cuppa tea." (irony intended)

First the scant reports of CH'ers trying it suggest at best it's only an abortive (sometimes.)

Secondly, a significant effect of drinking the stuff is referred to as "the purge." Vomiting and uncontrolled explosive diarrhea which may last for hours. Those who do this for "spriritual reasons" consider the purge to be important to cleanse the body of bad thoughts, spirits and such setting the stage for the important effects which may or may not come later. Ayahuasca advocates claim that if you don't get the purge you don't get the benefit. So if it don't work, it's your fault for not doing it right. (Hmm, that sounds familiar.)

I'd really like to end my headaches - but Ayahuasca is way over the line as far as I'm concerned. If anyone (maybe more than one) has a positive CH experience with this stuff - please report it. In the meanwhile I think I'd rather take out my tonsils, without benefit of anesthesia, than try Ayahuasca. My headaches are bad enough without adding projectile vomiting and uncontrollable diarrhea to the misery.

Third there doesn't seem to be a "sub-recreational" dose. As mentioned above, there are so many variations of receipe/preparation it would seem to be a form of Russian roulette to try to balance the very intense DMT effects with the countering MAOI benefit(s).

Last, the Ayahuasca advocates who support their claims that it's a good thing by name-dropping all the celebrities who have gone to Peru to try it turns me off. "Well, if Paul Simon did it, it must be okay." NOT!

Squanto

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by starlight on May 27^th, 2007, 8:13pm

OK, this is weird--I gotta share this with you all--I just read one and a half pages into this article, and I gotta say that the last time I went into cycle--the first couple days I was in cycle all I wanted to do was read I didn't want to talk to anyone, felt very moody and I hunkered down and read a book by Alice Walker that I am 99.9% sure is about a character who uses that specific drug with a shaman. WEIRD. Well I'm gonna go finish the article...oh and the name of the Alice Walker book is "Now is the Time To Open Your Heart".

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by UN solved on May 27^th, 2007, 9:01pm

Remember folks, it doesn't always take a gun or a bomb to kill you ... a small plant could kill you just the same. Be careful when messing with things like this.

Goodluck

UNsolved

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by starlight on May 27^th, 2007, 9:39pm

For anyone interested, I just looked in the "afterword" of the book and yes, it was about a character using "Ayahuasca" --"vine of the soul"-- under the guidance of a shaman. It's just weird cause I had bought the book without knowing what it was about, just knew I liked the author, it sat unread for like a year, and then for some reason I gravitated towards it right as I last went into cycle.
It is an interesting book for anyone to read if they are interested in, although it is fiction, learning something about the experience of taking that drink.

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by starlight on May 27^th, 2007, 9:42pm

Want to make it clear, I am not recommending taking it. Just found the book to be an interesting read.

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by Linda_Howell on May 27^th, 2007, 9:53pm

Quote:

LOL, I wonder what this guy would charge, to take me (us) down there for the treatment?

You go first Chuck. I'm right behind ya. :P

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by UN solved on May 28^th, 2007, 3:00am

on 05/27/07 at 21:53:56, Linda_Howell wrote:

You go first Chuck. I'm right behind ya. :P

Now there's a bold statement ! Sorry Chuck, I'm not right behind ya. And I don't want you behind me either ! LOL [smiley=laugh.gif]

UNsolved

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by Mark C on May 28^th, 2007, 3:08am

on 05/28/07 at 03:00:08, UN solved wrote:

Now there's a bold statement ! Sorry Chuck, I'm not right behind ya. And I don't want you behind me either ! LOL [smiley=laugh.gif]

UNsolved

BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

Spit on my keyboard!

;;D ;;D ;;D

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by tommyD on May 28^th, 2007, 7:01am

Quote:

Third there doesn't seem to be a "sub-recreational" dose.

If that were so, DMT would be a very interesting, one-of-a-kind compound. I'm am sure there is a subhallucinogenic dose; I don't know what it is for sure but would guess (from Erowid and TIHKAL) it is in the single-digit milligram range - in other words, about the same as psilocybin.

Quote:

As mentioned above, there are so many variations of receipe/preparation it would seem to be a form of Russian roulette to try to balance the very intense DMT effects with the countering MAOI benefit(s).

Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear. The MAOI is not there to counter the effects of DMT - just the opposite. It is there make the DMT work. Taken orally, DMT is broken doown by the monoamine oxidase enzyme long before ithe DMT gets to the brain. The MAOI inhibits the enzyme, allowing the DMT to make it to the brain. By the way, it is the MAOI, and its possible reactions with other medications, that poses the most physical threat from Ayahuasca.

Quote:

First the scant reports of CH'ers trying it suggest at best it's only an abortive (sometimes.)

Squanto - could you direct me to those reports? It's probably my lousy memory, but I've only seen two or three at most over the years, and don't remember a mention of use as an abortive.

I can't help thinking DMT could teach us a lot, seeing as how it exists naturally in the human brain. Maybe, just maybe, DMT is the key to the whole thing - perhaps clusterheads are actually suffering from a DMT deficiency...

But I want a trained pharmacologist to make the stuff and measure it in very small doses to a high degree of accuracy...

Oh, I just found it...Shulgin says in TIHKAL that 4 mg is indistinguishable from placebo, at 8 mg, there were physical but no mental effects, and 15 mg was the threshold psychedelic dose. Shulgan and friends were injecting DMT intramuscularly.

-tommyD

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by Lotus on May 28^th, 2007, 7:22am

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/

There is an existing forum and a website being built for ayahuasca.

There seems to be extensive information on it.

Guess anyone interested can go there for a read and ask the "experts" there.

Interesting !

Title: Re: Ayahuasca
Post by Squanto on May 28^th, 2007, 9:15am

on 05/28/07 at 07:01:31, tommyD wrote:

Squanto - could you direct me to those reports? It's probably my lousy memory, but I've only seen two or three at most over the years, and don't remember a mention of use as an abortive.

-tommyD

TommyD,
Sorry I don't have specific links to provide. So I should have tried to be not so dogmatic in my post. One weak reference is the thread on clusterbusters.com (that you participated in.) I googled "ayahuasca" and started "surfing." And I'm sure you know how that goes. One link leads to another until you're lost in the far reaches of cyberspace and don't remember how you got there or how to get back. Since my search was for my own edification and I wasn't going to write a book, I didn't keep track of or bookmark stuff that I came across. I just noticed stuff and moved on. (I frequently come to regret that behavior when later I can't find something that I want to refer back to.) All in all I spent several hours over a few days looking at stuff. (aside: and there's some really weird stuff out there written on this topic!)

I agree that ayahuasca probably wasn't deliberately used as a CH abortive. I came away with the general impression that any effect ayahuasca may have on CH was not enough for me personally to get excited about. If there was any CH benefit is unclear to me. I conjecture that one could get a similar effect (i.e. changing one's perception of one's headache) by banging one's thumb with a hammer while suffering from a KIP 4.

I've been trying to decide whether it's worth the time/$/effort get ahold of some the books and articles that are referenced in the various hits found when googling "ayahuasca." My interest now is probably more from the "Ain't THAT wierd!" point of view rather than thinking there might be something buried in this topic that might help my headaches.

Squanto