Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
        
(Message started by: birdman on May 2nd, 2007, 2:31pm)
Title: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 2nd, 2007, 2:31pm
I have been using the m-tank at home and the e-tanks at work.  My medical supply company just got taken over by a different outfit and they don not distribute the m-tanks.  They claim they are not safe but couldn't tell me why.  They left me a m360 or something like that, I am at work and it was delivered today.  I think it is a smaller tank.  The delivery guy wanted me to arrange having a concentrator? ordered.  He claims it is simialr to an A/C in size but it converts regular air to pure oxygen at a continuos rate.  Are these effective for our needs?  HELP!!!!
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by ClusterChris on May 2nd, 2007, 2:55pm
The place where I am getting my oxygen from tried to talk me into ine as well, I told them know because I don't know if they are good enough and just wanted what I know works! I'm curious as well.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Margi on May 2nd, 2007, 3:32pm
Chris?  You GOT a 'script for O2?  From your GP?

if so, YAY!!!  :)  Cool - I just read your other thread.  


as to concentrators I think they would work well - they are pretty pricey though. I think we were quoted $1800 for one and I didn't want to push our insurance to see if they would cover it.  Birdman, sounds like your supplier is just being lazy - they should be able to supply you with any size you want or, at the very least, order it in for you.  The tank we get (and I pick it up at the supplier, Mike hoists it into the basement) is about 4 feet tall, maybe 8 inches diameter and weighs 75 pounds.  They ARE heavy to deliver but WAY cheaper than the concentrators!
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by ClusterChuck on May 2nd, 2007, 3:42pm
When I asked about them, I was told that they do not produce 15 LPM at a continuous flow rate.  Some can for a short burst, but cannot sustain that level output.

If the above is true, regardless of the cost, they are worthless to our usage.

I don't know if it is true, but that is what I was told.

Chuck
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by BB on May 2nd, 2007, 5:31pm

Oxygen concentrators can produce up to 15L/min but they come out as room temperature oxygen, not cold oxygen like in the compressed tank.

It can work because it is pure oxygen, but with Ch, the element of coldness is VERY important, it works faster the colder it is and it helps reduce the pain more quickly if its cold so if I am you, I would insist on the old cold compressed oxygen tanks.

If you only use oxygen for a normal respiratory condition such as emphysema then it doesnt matter whether its cold or not. But with CH, I would explain to the supplying company that medically, it needs to be cold.

Hope this helps.

Painfree wishes to you.


Annette
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Maffumatt on May 2nd, 2007, 7:20pm
I have and use one, it reads only 10 lpm but it does put out more, ( I tweaked it). Yes it works. I'd try before I buy though. Hate to spend money on one only to find out that it doesn't put out enough for you.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by BikerBob on May 2nd, 2007, 7:58pm

on 05/02/07 at 17:31:37, BB wrote:
It can work because it is pure oxygen, but with Ch, the element of coldness is VERY important, it works faster the colder it is and it helps reduce the pain more quickly if its cold so if I am you, I would insist on the old cold compressed oxygen tanks.

Annette


O2 concentrators do not deliver pure oxygen. Most O2 concentrators deliver about 70% O2 when they are turned on. It can take them 10-15 minutes to get up to 90-95% O2. They never deliver pure O2. Those that have high flow rates take longer to produce higher O2 concentration levels. Tanks are much more effective for CH because they deliver 100% O2 at high flow rates immediately. Temperature doesn't matter because by the time the O2 can affect CH it's in the bloodstream at body temperature.

BB
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Jonny on May 2nd, 2007, 8:31pm

on 05/02/07 at 19:58:32, BikerBob wrote:
O2 concentrators do not deliver pure oxygen. Most O2 concentrators deliver about 70% O2 when they are turned on. It can take them 10-15 minutes to get up to 90-95% O2. They never deliver pure O2. Those that have high flow rates take longer to produce higher O2 concentration levels. Tanks are much more effective for CH because they deliver 100% O2 at high flow rates immediately. Temperature doesn't matter because by the time the O2 can affect CH it's in the bloodstream at body temperature.

BikerBoob


Well, seeing that you are once again bashing a doctor.....maybe you would like to add your link to this info you have,Dr BikerBoob?

BTW: Tell Flo to go cry in his milk......we know your his bitch!....LMMFAO! ;;D
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Brewcrew on May 2nd, 2007, 9:30pm
I've heard that two 8-lpm concentrators can be hooked up in parallel to deliver 16 lpm.

If I had the choice between that and nothing, I think I know what I'd choose.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by ClusterChuck on May 2nd, 2007, 9:56pm

on 05/02/07 at 14:31:19, birdman wrote:
They left me a m360 or something like that, I am at work and it was delivered today.  I think it is a smaller tank.  

I think I would stick with the tanks.  It is a bit more cumbersome, but just have them deliver more M360 tanks, to make up for the volume.

Good luck, buddy!
Chuck
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by nani on May 2nd, 2007, 11:10pm
I haven't read anything good about concentrators. I think someone here actually has 2 going in order to get a flow rate that's close to what we need.
I really don't think it matters whether it's cold or not, except the cold may feel good for some of us.
Stay with the tanks, sweetie. You know that they work.
pf wishes, nani
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by BB on May 2nd, 2007, 11:39pm
Oxygen concentrators CAN deliver 100% pure oxygen and up to 15 L.min depending on the model.

ALL of the oxygen that you get in a hospital, the one that you find comming out from a wall outlet is all from a concentrator. However, since its for a hospital, the concentrators are of high capacity and they are very powerful.

I looked further into this and contacted BOC ( Vital air ) and they said the home use concentrators are a lot smaller and less powerful. They deliver between 85% to 100% oxygen.

Here is a sample of one with all the information.


http://www.vitalair.co.uk/vitalair/documents/Your_concerntrator.pdf

http://www.vitalair.co.uk/vitalair/clinicians/concentrators_clinicians.asp?tabno=3&tabid=sc3


Temperature does help a lot. Coldness is also a very effective vasoconstrictor and anti-inflammation. Even breathing cold air helps a lot during a hit.

Therefore as I said earlier, insist on the tanks.

Painfree wishes to you.


Annette
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by mynm156 on May 3rd, 2007, 2:22am
Hey gang sorry O2 concentrators are low flow only they are designed to administer 2-4 lpm.   There are very FEW that are bigger but not for private usage and they are CLOSELY regulated by the government.
Title: Oxygen concentrators are NOT okay!
Post by cluster on May 3rd, 2007, 7:07am
==>Please click here and check this link, it was already posted by Annette. (http://www.vitalair.co.uk/vitalair/clinicians/concentrators_clinicians.asp?tabno=3&tabid=sc3) <==

Quotes from the linked page and the PDF found there:

"Concentrators extract oxygen from the air and deliver the oxygen at concentrations of 85% or greater. The flow rates can vary from 0.02 litres per minute (by fitting a regulator, which is installed by Vitalair) or up to 15 litres per minute by supplying more than one concentrator."

"Performance:*
1-3 l/min: 95.5%-92.0%;
4 l/min: 92% ±3%;
5 l/min: 90% ±3%
*Based on an atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psia (101 kPa) at 70°F (21°C)."

The "high-capacity ZH Cylinder" is an addtional tank of high pressure (300 bar) oxygen? - Why not take a tank without the concentrator then?

pf wishes,
Friedrich
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 3rd, 2007, 8:38am
Thanks for all the info.  Looks like I will be having a long talk with my medical supplier.  I need the tanks.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Pinkfloyd on May 3rd, 2007, 11:46am

on 05/02/07 at 23:39:41, BB wrote:
I looked further into this and contacted BOC ( Vital air ) and they said the home use concentrators are a lot smaller and less powerful. They deliver between 85% to 100% oxygen.
Annette


So I guess Biker was correct....what a surprise...not.

As Friedrich pointed out, the higher you set the flow rate on a home concentrator, the lower the % of pure air. So...someone show me a link where you can get 15lpm at 100% on a home concentrator.
Matt...you may be getting more than 10lpm but do you have any idea what the % is? It's cool you were able to tweak it. Whatever the case, glad it works for you.
Has anyone tried a concentrator with the clustermasx? This may be a way to help a concentrator work. If you have one that produced 10lpm, that might be enough with a masx.....depending on what the % is coming out of the concentrator.

And we are talking about HOME concentrators since that is what birdman is inquiring about.
Saying home concentrators can produce 15lpm is misleading people. Yes you can hook them up in tandem but, one, birdman's insurance co isn't going to do that and besides, that's like saying jonny can bench press 500 pounds, but leaving out the part that he lifts 100 pounds, 5 times.

Breathing cold air does help sometimes but it's not because it's vasoconstricting IMHO. No one knows why, for sure, but it's most likely helping to cool down the vagus nerve (just like drinking cold water during a hit) and also the nerve ganglion in the back of the sinus cavity.

The difference in temp between the tanks and a concentrator is minimal and would play a small part in cooling these nerves, if any, but every little bit helps. Even if tanks produced the 02 at room temp, they'd still be the preferred method, and for the reasons Biker pointed out.

When using the "clustermasx" it's (temp) most likely even less of an issue because breathing the air out of the bag, just like any non-rebreather, it's warming to closer to room temp before being inhaled.

Birdman...if you get past all the nits we're picking....I think the concensus is stick with the tanks if possible.

Bobw
BTW, if breathing cold air has vasoconstrictive and anti-inflamatory properties, I would think it might be even more effective and important for emphysema than clusters.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Margi on May 3rd, 2007, 11:55am
Hey!  Nice to see you PinkBob...it's been too long.  

Thanks, folks, this is a very informative thread.  
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 3rd, 2007, 12:48pm
If only the insurance companies and medical suppliers were this imformed.  They talk as though they know what I need and what works for me.  I read somewhere on here once before that you just have to keep nagging until you get what you need.  Looks like that is gonna start.
P.S. - the tank they left me is an m60?  Anyone know how many hours it holds compared to the m tank?
Thanks everyone!  This is the brightest point of my day right now.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Margi on May 3rd, 2007, 12:57pm
how tall is it, birdman?  Our tank is 4 feet tall, about 8" in diameter and it lasts about 30 headaches.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Judge_Smails on May 3rd, 2007, 4:23pm
I have used a compressor the past two cycles so I can speak first hand on them.

First of all - Apria healthcare sent me a compressor that goes up to 15lpm - now that's as high as it goes, but it does go that high.  The compressor takes about 5 min to start producing 100% O2 - there is a light on the machine that starts red and will turn to green once the O2 gets over 95%.

In addition to the compressor I also get 3-4 large tanks delivered (the insurance company always assumes that you need the O2 constantly, not just "as needed").  I have NEVER had to use the tanks, I always used the compressor and it worked perfectly.

Obviously the beast is different for all of us, but I just want people to know that this is a legitimate option.  You may feel more comfortable with tanks, and it goes without saying that the compressor isn't an option once you're out of your house, but please don't say that compressors are not effective, because they have worked for me and they are a legitimate option.

I would advise getting both (if you have insurance) and deciding for yourself.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Mr. Happy on May 3rd, 2007, 4:29pm

on 05/03/07 at 12:48:41, birdman wrote:
P.S. - the tank they left me is an m60?  Anyone know how many hours it holds compared to the m tank?


http://www.mushys.com/O2/O2tanks.jpg

http://www.mushys.com/O2/O2tankchart2.jpg
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Kevin_M on May 3rd, 2007, 5:38pm

on 05/02/07 at 14:31:19, birdman wrote:
They left me a m360 or something like that, I am at work and it was delivered today.  I think it is a smaller tank.


According to the "Ask Mr Happy' flow chart, it looks to be half-sized from a regular M tank.  Lugging the smaller tank may have less liability for the oxygen company because it's less cumbersome and less prone to any mishaps if dropped with the guard rail around the valve, as pictured.
 When I first ordered it was 4 "E" tanks at a time but when times got worse I inquired about 6 at a time and it was no problem, all same with Apria and insurance.  I kept one tank and so have 7, then order six at a time, one still intact in case of a missed delivery when it's important.    
 Maybe request 2 M60's per delivery to keep home capacity ok.  One time, order two but give back one saying the other's not quite empty, then you'll have 3 tanks.  Thereafter, when two are empty, order 2 at a time giving back two each time but still having one hooked up still.  
 


on 05/02/07 at 14:31:19, birdman wrote:
The delivery guy wanted me to arrange having a concentrator?


One thing to keep in mind was this in the Judge Smails post:


Quote:
The compressor takes about 5 min to start producing 100% O2 - there is a light on the machine that starts red and will turn to green once the O2 gets over 95%


Catching hits early is important.  Waiting for green light wouldn't be desirable when waking with one quick ramping.  
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by BlueMeanie on May 3rd, 2007, 7:19pm

on 05/03/07 at 17:38:40, Kevin_M wrote:
Lugging the smaller tank may have less liability for the oxygen company because it's less cumbersome and less prone to any mishaps if dropped with the guard rail around the valve, as pictured.


The med supply company should be able to supply whatever you need. I doubt they don't deliver larger tanks do to liability. My last cycle I used an "H" tank It was delivered and set up by one person. That's the biggest tank available. If you can get a script for the cylinders instead of the concentrator, I recommend getting an "H" tank, it lasts a long time.

As for the hot/cold debate, attach a bubbler and ADD ICE if you want cold air.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Maffumatt on May 3rd, 2007, 7:55pm

on 05/03/07 at 11:46:05, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Matt...you may be getting more than 10lpm but do you have any idea what the % is? It's cool you were able to tweak it. Whatever the case, glad it works for you.
Has anyone tried a concentrator with the clustermasx? This may be a way to help a concentrator work. If you have one that produced 10lpm, that might be enough with a masx.....depending on what the % is coming out of the concentrator.

And we are talking about HOME concentrators since that is what birdman is inquiring about.
Saying home concentrators can produce 15lpm is misleading people. Yes you can hook them up in tandem but, one, birdman's insurance co isn't going to do that and besides, that's like saying jonny can bench press 500 pounds, but leaving out the part that he lifts 100 pounds, 5 times.

Breathing cold air does help sometimes but it's not because it's vasoconstricting IMHO. No one knows why, for sure, but it's most likely helping to cool down the vagus nerve (just like drinking cold water during a hit) and also the nerve ganglion in the back of the sinus cavity.

The difference in temp between the tanks and a concentrator is minimal and would play a small part in cooling these nerves, if any, but every little bit helps. Even if tanks produced the 02 at room temp, they'd still be the preferred method, and for the reasons Biker pointed out.

When using the "clustermasx" it's (temp) most likely even less of an issue because breathing the air out of the bag, just like any non-rebreather, it's warming to closer to room temp before being inhaled.

My condenser was a gift from a friends of my dads, when the elderly couple that had it died it was donated. She knew I used O2 so she grabed it for me.

I was worried about the same when I got it, was 10 lpm going to be enough? Was it pure? I brought it to Lincare to be serviced and tested, at 10 lpm it put out 90% O2. With the tweaking I believe I got it up to 12 or 13. Question is...does it work. Answer is yes. Would it work for you? Don't know, we are all different. I use a welders set up at work, works just as fast as tank air for me. I have a clustermasx, it travels with me back to forth from work. Bad thing about the condenser is that it runs on electricity....no power, no O2, I learned the hard way.

I do like the colder air, I run some tubing through salted ice water to cool it off, I got some 10 foot hose at the last convention, its pretty cold when it gets to the mask.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Brewcrew on May 3rd, 2007, 7:57pm
The medical supply companies would most likely rather have their delivery guys lugging smaller tanks so they don't get hurt and drive their insurance claims up. Just like any other delivery company! ;;D
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 4th, 2007, 8:35am
WOW what a great pile of useful info.  I spoke with the supplier and I am going to have at least 2 m60 tanks on hand at all times.  I also have 3 e tanks that I take to work.  Always concerned about legality of transporting them but ultimately do not care.
They claim the M60 is now the largest tank that they will supply to a residence.  Hospitals/doctors/dentists are still getting the m tanks.
Thank you Mr Happy for the very helpful chart.  I am saving that one.
Where can I get a bubbler for cooling the air?  Ebay?
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Mr. Happy on May 4th, 2007, 8:48am
Moore Medical carries bubblers. Cheap, too.

http://www1.mooremedical.com/index.cfm?PG=CTL&CS=HOM&FN=ProductDetail&PID=676
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 4th, 2007, 1:32pm
I am assuming you just fill it with ice, right?  Was that the dumbest question ever?
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 4th, 2007, 8:59pm
u put water in it, and maybe a couple cubes.

its meant to moisturize the O2, since the humidity of the air coming out of the tank is about 0%.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by nani on May 4th, 2007, 9:08pm
Be careful. I only add a little bit of water. Too much and you could drown.  ;)
If it's just the cold you want, Bob kip (of the kip scale) used to keep his tubing coiled up in old milk gallons that he cut the top off of, filled with water, and kept in the freezer. I'm pretty sure that's how I read it. It's in the archives somewhere.
There are no dumb questions. OK, maybe one.
Jonny, you want a beer?   ;;D
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by pieface_49 on May 5th, 2007, 2:10am
Here is some good info concerning oxygen:
http://www.nlhep.org/resources/Prescrb-Hm-Oxygen/home-oxygen-options-4.html
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Jonny on May 5th, 2007, 2:32am

on 05/04/07 at 21:08:03, nani wrote:
Be careful. I only add a little bit of water.
Jonny, you want a beer?   ;;D


Yeah, fill it only about a 1/4 of the way....I found out the hard way.

Sure, Ill take two  :-*
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 5th, 2007, 8:51pm
As my motto says, I'll try anything once.  Gonna get a bubbler and use some ice cold water with maybe a cube.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Samiam on May 8th, 2007, 12:30pm
Hi guys,

First I was on the concentrators and yes they can produce 15 lpm air flow at 97 % pure O2.  I had 1 10 lpm and 1 5 lpm hooked up in tantom and it worked like a charm.  It took about 1 min to get to 15 lpm and my Insurance paid for it.  I also had a "M" tank and a couple of "E" tanks.  Next time they will give me 2 10 lpm concentrators so it's not as hard on the machines.

To say this wouldn't work isn't telling the truth it worked like a charm for me and I've had cluster for 26 yrs so I'm not a newbie with this.  However this is the first year that I have used O2 to abort an attack without meds.  

I didn't have problem and it took the worry out of ordering more tanks when they ran out or worrying about weather they would get the order right.  I kept them for however long I needed them with an open script to get them back within a day's notice if I need them again.  Right now I just held on to 2 E tanks just in case but I'm out of cycle and so far I haven't had to use O2 in 3 weeks.

Also the "M" tank didn't abort any faster then the concentrators.

Sami
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 8th, 2007, 12:48pm
Thanks for the additional info.  Unfortunately, my insurance carrier will not allow me to find out as they will only cover the tanks.    
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by Brewcrew on May 8th, 2007, 1:57pm

on 05/08/07 at 12:48:48, birdman wrote:
Thanks for the additional info.  Unfortunately, my insurance carrier will not allow me to find out as they will only cover the tanks.    

I guess it's their call since they're paying the bill. You're still getting what you need, right? Unless they're limiting you to X number of tanks per whatever.
Title: Re: Are Oxygen concentrators okay?
Post by birdman on May 9th, 2007, 8:38am
The tanks have been supplied but apparently I have to switch to m60 tanks.  I am going to have them leave two or three instead of one m tank.  Plus I have multiple e tanks for work and travel.  Just took the mask off at work.  Thank God for o2


Clusterheadaches.com Message Board » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.