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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> i am not clear on something
        
(Message started by: tonyg279 on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 12:51pm)

Title: i am not clear on something
Post by tonyg279 on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 12:51pm

Hello to everyone
At the moment i am reading a book called Magnesium, the solution for migraine headaches, by Jay s. cohen, MD
From reading in the forums and in other internet sites, its believed that during an attack of cluster headaches, some arteries in the brain swell up to x20 their normal size, wether in migraine attacks they swell x4 their normal size, hence why cluster headaches attacks are way more severe than migraine attacks, now this is where i got a little confused readind the book.
he explains how calcium is the body's natural blood vessels contracting mineral, and magnesium is a calcium antagonist, it does the opposite of calcium, it dilates blood vessels, then it came to my mind, how this guys is going to say magnesium which relaxes and dilates the blood vessels can help in migraine and cluster attacks, when in fact you need something to constrict those blood vessels, it got me really confused, as i kept on reading this is what he says further up in the book

Magnesium has a relaxing effect on the central nervous system and tempers the actions of the sympathetic nervous system. Magnesium is essential for cells to maintain proper balances of other minerals such as potassium, sodium, and calcium. When cells are deficient in magnesium, this balance is disrupted, and cells lose potassium and are flooded with calcium and sodium. In the smooth muscle cells of the blood vessels, this sets the stage for the constriction and subsequent dilatation of the migraine cascade.

so what I understand for this is, that blood vessels enter a constriction stage before a subsequent dilatation, which is when the dilate up to x20 the normal size.

I will keep on reading this book, looks very interesting and will let you know what else I find in it.

ps: at the beginning of the book he says that he will call it migraine attacks, even for cluster headaches unless he specifies otherwise, so he is actually talking about both.

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by TxBasslady on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 3:00pm

Lots of CH'ers take magnesium supplements.

Jean

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by tonyg279 on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 4:21pm

Thanks for the info Jean.

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 4:46pm

I couldn't explain the pharmaceutical (sp?) reasoning behind it, but I've been taking a magnesium, calcium and vit D supplement for several years now. My attacks are less frequent and less severe.

I'm the first person to admit I'm never sure about the cause and effect of meds on these things since they morph so often, but as long as my cycles stay on the mellow side I'll keep on taking them. Hoping life is finding you pain free.

Guiseppi

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Feb 25^th, 2007, 8:12pm

I'm with Guiseppi here, I dont know the how but it does work for me, along with the magnesium I take Taurine as it acts as a metabiliser ie it breaks the magnesium down so that greater quantities are absorbed into the body.

From my experience it takes a while to get into your system before you see the benifits, I have been taking both since April last year & things have gradually got better to the point that I am now 146 days without a hit, although I am still shadowing to varying degrees I've had nothing over a 4 on the KIP scale and for me that make life sweet.
Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by BB on Feb 25^th, 2007, 9:11pm

Magnesium is vital for nerve repair, nerve growth and nerve remyelinisation.

Nerves are like electrical wires, they have central nerve fibers where the electrical impulses are being conducted and they have a layer of cells covering the outside like an insulation layer called the myelin.

When nerves get damaged, the myelin layer dies exposing raw fibers. This leads to extra excitability of the nerves and of misfiring, causing an increase in nerve activities and pain.

The trigeminal nerve is often damaged during clusters from physical compression and chemical burnouts. Magnesium helps the nerve the repair itself and to regrow the protective outter sheath. When its repaired, it will misfire less and becomes less sensitive to triggers.

Annette

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 26^th, 2007, 1:18am

on 02/25/07 at 21:11:16, BB wrote:

Magnesium is vital for nerve repair, nerve growth and nerve remyelinisation.

Really? hmmm
Can you site some information on this from anyone other than possibly a vitamin shop?

on 02/25/07 at 21:11:16, BB wrote:

The trigeminal nerve is often damaged during clusters from physical compression and chemical burnouts. Magnesium helps the nerve the repair itself and to regrow the protective outter sheath. When its repaired, it will misfire less and becomes less sensitive to triggers.

Wow. Really?

::)

Bobw

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by BB on Feb 26^th, 2007, 3:09am

No, why dont you cite some information telling me that it is not so ?

Annette

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by chewy on Feb 26^th, 2007, 7:19am

Quote:

It helps maintain normal muscle and nerve function, keeps heart rhythm steady, supports a healthy immune system, and keeps bones strong.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by pattik on Feb 26^th, 2007, 10:20am

Cluster headache patients have been clinically shown to have low blood magnesium levels. But that's as far as it goes. The rest is all anecdotal. I don't think any cause has been found for that particular phenomenon, and magnesium supplementation may simply have a placebo effect. Lots of CH'ers take it anyway. Since it's all a balancing act with electrolytes, supplementing with just one mineral is just a shot in the dark.

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 26^th, 2007, 10:28am

Really? hmmm
Can you site some information on this from anyone other than possibly a vitamin shop?

She's someone who knows her sh%$, not a vitamin salesman. She spends more time helping people then most on this board, not someone you should be attacking.

Guiseppi

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by chewy on Feb 26^th, 2007, 10:43am

Quote:

not someone you should be attacking.

Its pretty much all this guy is capable of if a post doesnt meet his shroom ends.

On the other hand if you make a staetment you should be able to back it up.

At any rate Hope the link helps.

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by BB on Feb 26^th, 2007, 12:04pm

Actually I can always back any of my statement. I just didnt feel like doing it for someone who seems to come here not to contribute or help those in needs ( unless they use shrooms or seeds ) but to throw flames at those who are.

For people who may be interested, magnesium exhibits a calcium channel blocking effect, which reduces excitability of nerve cells and nerve fibers. If acting upon normal healthy nerves, it will reduce nerve misfiring. When acting upon damaged ( demyelinated ) nerves, it allows the nerve fibers to rest ie enable the nerve cells to regrow. Magnesium also regulates several hundred enzymes essential for the building blocks DNA and RNA of various cells including nerve cells and muscle cells.

http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=15477382

http://www.kospublishing.com/html/mag.html

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/1/3/308.pdf

http://www.jgp.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/5/753

There are several other articles but they are extracted from Neurology journals that require a membership to be able to access.

Annette

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 26^th, 2007, 7:05pm

on 02/26/07 at 12:04:57, BB wrote:

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

Please. Don't do it for me. Do it for the people here that need help. Do it for those people really looking to help find answers, not me. I'm just here for the fun of it.

I only throw flames at BS. Thats why Don doesn't like me either.
One way to help people is to point out obvious BS so they don't take it as the truth. When it comes from someone in the medical profession, a lot of people will actually believe the information as facts. Everyone here does it when Dr. Ali shows up.

I'm really sorry if I like to see some facts when assertions are made.
You may not believe this but I actually like to learn new things.

Show where magnesium REPAIRS nerve damage.
Show where we damage our trigeminal nerve by pressing or beating on it during an attack.
Show something other than a 50 year old paper on how Mag. and Calcuim effect the operation of nerves in lobsters.
Changing your story to..."it lets them rest so they can regenerate," is laughable.
Thats like saying the ansethetic used to induce a coma repairs brain damage.

You can always back it up, but never do. Funny how your proof is always hidden away in some journals that you have no access to.

I never questioned the fact that mag. has an effect on nerves, or that it can have a positive effect on clusters. I believe it does and have taken it for years.
It's role in helping clusters is thought to be more along the lines outlined in the original post in this thread....before facts were clouded with BS.

At least I gave you an opportunity to prove a positive. You want me to prove mag. doesn't repair damaged nerve fibers???? Would you also like me to prove that there are no ghosts, while I'm at it?

Bobw

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 26^th, 2007, 7:15pm

on 02/26/07 at 10:28:52, Guiseppi wrote:

She's someone who knows her sh%$, not a vitamin salesman. Guiseppi

I respect your thoughts on the matter Guiseppi, but I know she isn't a vitamin salesman and I have my doubts as to how much sh%$ she knows. But thats just my opinion...take it or leave it.

Bobw

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 26^th, 2007, 7:29pm

on 02/26/07 at 10:43:07, chewy wrote:

At any rate Hope the link helps.

That is a good link. Thanks...always nice to get facts.

Bobw

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by BB on Feb 26^th, 2007, 9:33pm

on 02/26/07 at 19:15:38, Pinkfloyd wrote:

I I have my doubts as to how much sh%$ she knows. But thats just my opinion...take it or leave it.

Bobw

If its sh%$ we are talking about then yes you know a lot lot more than me.

This will be the last time I respond to your post, BobW. My time is better spent doing other things.

Annette

Title: Re: i am not clear on something
Post by LeeS on Feb 27^th, 2007, 1:57pm

Someone once said to me it's a bit like kids fighting in a sandbox ;) ;;D

I was so hoping that this thread (albeit off-topic a bit now) would lead to further information supporting my 'neurogenesis' theory - so selfishly speaking, please don't kill it just quite yet - one never knows.

Did you ever get to finish reading my 'paper' Annette? Any comments (positive and negative) gratefully appreciated.

I have a hunch that NOS (or iNOS) is more important than magnesium in this respect, but as most things, it's probably all closely related.

-Lee