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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Busters/detoxing.
        
(Message started by: thomas on Nov 9^th, 2006, 10:25am)

Title: Busters/detoxing.
Post by thomas on Nov 9^th, 2006, 10:25am

Hmmm I wonder how much of the success of busters can be attributed to the detoxing step before the treatment itself is administered? Not taking anything away from the buster treatment, just a thought that came to mind. Will there be a control group that does the detoxing but not the treatment itself in the Harvard study?

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by pattik on Nov 9^th, 2006, 10:55am

Good question, Thomas. I'm sure someone with more info on the study will chime in regarding the detox period. Here is a link with some interesting speculation about detoxing by pinksharkmark. You'll see the detoxing mentioned about half-way down.
http://www.clusterbusters.com/thoughts.htm

patti

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by E-Double on Nov 9^th, 2006, 10:57am

I have thought this as well.

I was prepared to "bust" finally having my wife's support and found that once I detoxed, life became easier for me!
I decided not to do anything. period. Med nor Alternative.

From a scientific perspective I would like to see specific groups b/c there are some who create cocktails just like we have done with meds.
e.g. shrooms with seeds. seeds with some mushies sprinkled in.
sputz vs tea
this and that.

It can get watered down and soon we wind up with the same debates that we have with conventional meds.

I fully support everything that is occuring however would like to see some people follow the guidlines specifically and then report outcomes religiously.

PF wishes

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 9^th, 2006, 11:07am

I don't think for me that with detoxing alone I'd be able to function, although it could possibly make the condition needed to be treated change slightly for the better. Too many memories of inadequate meds in the past for me. If I could detox though, I'd immediately go to an alternative, with that I'd give myself of a good hope of staying detoxed.

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Margi on Nov 9^th, 2006, 11:23am

Hear, Hear, Thomas!

I think there is HUGE merit to this theory. Good on ya, bud! :-*

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Flash on Nov 9^th, 2006, 12:16pm

I experienced a remission of 39 months thanks to a single dose of mushrooms. I was then clear of everything until the next full episode hit this year. Throughout the episode I stayed clean of EVERYTHING including mushrooms. I was as detoxed as a person can possibly be. Yes the episode was milder than usual, but it was still undeniably a proper episode, and I still had 2 trips to the ER.

In the almost 14 years since I started using mushrooms, the effect of the shrooms has been to totally prevent/suppress the episodes. They are vastly more effective than just plain detoxing.

See my thread from a few months ago on this very board about my detoxed episode for more details.

And yes... I am hard as fuck :)

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 9^th, 2006, 12:28pm

on 11/09/06 at 12:16:48, Flash wrote:

In the almost 14 years since I started using mushrooms, the effect of the shrooms has been to totally prevent/suppress the episodes. They are vastly more effective than just plain detoxing.

I've come to agree that would be an aim of detoxing for me.

Quote:

If I could detox though, I'd immediately go to an alternative, with that I'd give myself of a good hope of staying detoxed.

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Redd715 on Nov 9^th, 2006, 1:37pm

Personally and for myself only, my detox period off topomax and verapamil and using no trex was hell in preperation for busting. Verap was only marginally effective, and an increase was prohibitive due to my floor bottom BP. I couldn't go up. Trex was being saved the worst of the worst hits, as there was some success in decreasing the intensity of the hits with the verap.

I first taperd off topomax, due to the dummyness about a month before. Then the verap over 2-3 weeks (can't remember), continueing the use of trex to abort the worst ones. Then once I was totally off the verap I stopped using trex for 5 days before busting. Frequency dropped slightly over those 5 days, but the pain levels were much higher than while on the verap.

I can't say if going totally without even the alternative, if things would have settled down or not, but I know that for myself, I wasn't brave enough to go 100% treatment free to find out. I couldn't afford to risk getting fired by going off all meds and being home bound again.

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Pinkfloyd on Nov 9^th, 2006, 2:16pm

on 11/09/06 at 10:25:58, thomas wrote:

Hmmm I wonder how much of the success of busters can be attributed to the detoxing step before the treatment itself is administered?

We have discussed this quite a lot actually and I do believe that for many people, it IS a factor. Not all, but many people experience not anywhere near the pain they expect beginning the detox. Many have similar experiences to E-D. I'll return to this thread later to expand on the topic...because I think it's an important one....gotta go earn a living.

on 11/09/06 at 10:25:58, thomas wrote:

Will there be a control group that does the detoxing but not the treatment itself in the Harvard study?

Heading to McLean on the 18th to discuss this topic and finish up (hopefully) the protocol.
As to this specific question, the problem here would be...(will be?) A placebo arm wouldn't be the same thing as this suggestion, as there would be no placebo effect. I don't think we'd have anyone showing up after detoxing and have them just sit there. And giving them a placebo would change the equation.

I can say, out of ALL the hundreds of people that have gone through the detox....there may have been a few that had their cycle end completely before using any of the alternatives, but I don't remember any. Tommy may remember one since he records each case.

Again...I'll be back on this,
Bobw

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by MJ on Nov 10^th, 2006, 1:05am

I detoxed for 10 years (med free)

Like EE it was a whole lot easier mentally to deal with constant clusters.

There was some improvement in the attacks. Medicated they were often back to back attacks 24/7.

Though unmedicated, I still get hit as many times a day during cycles, I generally get short breaks in between and the hits are much cleaner and the mind more focused to deal with the pain.

Most improved and important for me was the ability to recover quickly from the hits. I couldnt do that while taking all the meds.

Did this add to my success with RC seeds? Dont know for sure.

Title: Re: Busters/detoxing.
Post by Pinkfloyd on Nov 10^th, 2006, 1:47am

Just a few more thoughts on the subject.

I do believe that a detox helps. Not only for those using the alternative routes, but I think it would probably also help others that have been on a combination of medications, and switching from one to another every couple of months, overlapping them as we tend to do...slowly withdraw from one as we titrate the new one.
I just don't think this constant medicated state allows the body itself to do as much as it can to fight against the cluster machine. It never has a chance to recover and assess what IT can do, or what it SHOULD be doing to combat the clusters.

I don't think this is the case with most episodics that have "normal" defined cycles and know what works for them, go onto a therapy, and work their way through another typical cycle.
For chronics though, and for people that find themselves in prolonged cycles, bouncing from med to med, I think a detox period would be beneficial for many.

Its quite common for the typical person that turns to these alternatives, to be well into uncontrolled cycles, that are lasting longer than usual past cycles.
Many people that are still getting decent relief from conventional meds, cycles that are still lasting about as long as in the past, etc, don't go this route. And its understandable. Why detox after a few weeks, go through that period, and try something else? Many times, by the time they decide to give it a go, the cycle may be nearing the end anyway and don't bother.

There is evidence that some meds can and do extend cycles. It seems that Prof. Goadsby feels that many meds can have this effect, including even 02. I'm not sure I buy that one but there is info out there on verapamil and the triptans. I suppose that "anything" used constantly to alter the bodies natural response to the clusters may also have an effect on the cycles. Just a thought though.

So, to make a long story short....do i think the detox plays a role in the success of the alt's? yes, in some cases, and in a couple of different ways.

BTW, I also believe a detox period may help other "conventional" meds be more effective.

Bobw