Clusterheadaches.com Message Board


    
      
        Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Ketosis
        
(Message started by: Katherinecm on Sep 11^th, 2006, 9:24pm)

Title: Ketosis
Post by Katherinecm on Sep 11^th, 2006, 9:24pm

I apologize if someone has posted this before... I thought I'd found it here but I can't seem to find the topic. I have been reading about how ketosis helps end seizures in children, and just found this link on migraines:

Can Ketosis Help Migraine Sufferers? A Case Report
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006.00321_5.x
Headache: The Journal of Head and Face Pain
Volume 46 Page 182 - January 2006
doi:10.1111/j.1526-4610.2006.00321_5.x
Volume 46 Issue 1

After perusing epilepsy sites for info about this, it seems that somehow the ketones "alter the brain's metabolism" and incite malfunctioning neurons to heal. After a few years of being without seizures, the patients can go back to a normal diet until the seizures return. The only other thing I'd ever read about neurons repairing themselves had to do with the REM stage of sleep, and we all know how dangerous that can be for us.

This explains to me how "detox" and other low-calorie diets might help people. The trouble is, it's 90% fat, which seems very hard to follow for long. One case study that was for two years said it helped 1/3 of the people have no seizures, 1/3 reduce their seizures, and another third failed -mostly because they simply couldn't follow the diet. There are inherent dangers of kidney stones, and obviously you can't do this forever because of the lack of certain vitamins.

Has anyone had any luck with ketogenic diets? (Say like the stage of atkins where you eat mostly fat b/c you are resistant to ketosis?)

At any rate, this is what I'm going to try next. It seems easier for me to deal with than eating beets constantly. Would anyone like to join me?

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by E-Double on Sep 11^th, 2006, 10:17pm

Be careful and research some more.
This should be done under a doctor's care as well.

If you are not working and have the time to dedicate to such intensive monitoring and restrictions then it may worth the try.

Be prepared to be hungry.

Good luck and best to ya

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by jmorgan52 on Sep 12^th, 2006, 2:49am

Hi Katherine

I don't seem able to read this article - I get the message "Requested article does not exist on the system. " when I use your link.

I understood that dieting in general will start ketosis when the body starts "eating it's own fat" to get energy rather than from the food input.

If this is so then maybe that is the reason a detox diet works? I definately lose weight rapidly on my diet!

I am open to any explanation that will clarify why my method has reliably broken my CH cycle and prevented several full blown cycles from developing past the mild HA stage over the past 3 1/2 years. I have always assumed it was toxins in the body that was causing it.

If you are right then maybe you will have found a more refined method that will help others who find my method does not help them. Keep us posted.

I started to get mild headaches every few days around the beginning of August. I started my detox 2 weeks ago and have not had a single headache for the past 10 days.

I have now moved on to a diet whereby I avoid wheat, carbs and sugar as much as possible. I am eating stacks of fruit, veg with lots of fish, eggs, chicken, a little dairy and occasional red meat and of couse lots of water. All this with very little additional fat in cooking, and no bread = no butter. I have cut down on booze quite a lot too and generally limit it to weekends in moderation. I am losing weight very slowly about 1lb per week. I could do with losing some at the moment ;;D

Good luck
John

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by georgej on Sep 12^th, 2006, 3:12am

Is this an advisable thing for diabetics? Not at all throwing rocks--please don't think so--but I wonder whether it might be important that diabetics look carefully at this diet before proceeding.

After all, one of the obvious warning signs of undiagnosed diabetes is the scent of ketones on the breath.

Not diabetic myself, but I know that there are some here who are.

Best,

George

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by javi_spain on Sep 12^th, 2006, 4:02am

Hi all

Thanks Katherine for this article, I have been able to read it by navigating from the search utility instead of just clicking on your link (which apparently does not work)

For those that want to read it try the following link and go to article number 15, then click "full text article".

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/action/doSearch?searchText=ketosis&searchbutton.x=0&searchbutton.y=0

By the way, people have been reporting improvement in CH through intense exercising. Could this be related to ketosis?

I dont think the extreme version (i.e. eating only fat) is for me, but I will gladly kick sugars and "fast" carbohidrates while raising the intake of proteins and "healthy fats" (i.e. olive oil and fatty fish) in my next cycle to see if it helps (not particularly impatient to test it though :-) )

Regards

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by BB on Sep 12^th, 2006, 7:25am

Ketosis can be dangerous for your health.

Please be very careful with it and need to be monitored by a doctor and it can lead to liver and kidney damage.

http://www.holisticonline.com/Remedies/weight/weight_ketones-and-ketosis.htm

Annette

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Katherinecm on Sep 12^th, 2006, 7:54am

If you're diabetic I would check with your doctor first.

There are some people who use atkins or limiting carbs to treat type-2 diabetes. Others go the low-fat route, arguing that fat consumption makes you resistant to insulin.

Whether ketosis that is dietary-induced is as unhealthy as the diabetic induced (ketoacidosis) is pretty controversial if I understand correctly. I'm going to go over this with my doctor and discuss if I need any sort of blood tests, etc.

Katy

modified to add: I have no idea about the exercising...

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Katherinecm on Sep 12^th, 2006, 8:07am

Here's a wikipedia article on the difference between ketoacidosis and ketosis, with further links at the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketoacidosis

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Katherinecm on Sep 12^th, 2006, 8:21am

And another one on the ketogenic diet- possible side effects are listed here too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by BB on Sep 12^th, 2006, 8:23am

Ketosis and ketoacidosis are quite different.

Ketosis can cause dehydration and thats the danger.

I think its worth a try but better to be checked over by your doctor and maybe have blood tests to monitor.

Good luck with it and let us know how you go please.

Thanks

Annette

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by jmorgan52 on Sep 12^th, 2006, 9:44am

on 09/12/06 at 08:23:33, BB wrote:

Ketosis and ketoacidosis are quite different.

Ketosis can cause dehydration and thats the danger.

Annette

I always drink lots of water - especially when doing a detox diet. At least 2 litres a day. Not sure how you would dehydrate if you did this?

I managed to find the article and it sounds plausable to me (without getting to much into the migraine vs. CH argument) 8)

I am sure I get both. My "Migraines" last 4 to 24+ hours. My CH lasts 2 to 4 hours and then repeats and repeats every few hours all day and night. The pain and location is very similar in both but the migraine sort of waxes and wanes slightly throughout the day, whereas the CH pain is solid and the just stops. Neither is really bearable!

Both respond rapidly to Imigran Injs. Since using the detox my stockpile of injections date back to June 2003 expiry date 8) so I reckon its working for me.

John

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by unsolved1 on Sep 12^th, 2006, 9:49am

No one should try this kind of dieting while taking Topomax ... unless you enjoy the pain of kidney stones.

UNsolved

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by jmorgan52 on Sep 12^th, 2006, 9:59am

My personal opinion is that you should try and stop ALL drugs while trying this if you can. But again if you drink enough water then surely the kidney stones will not be a problem?

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by BB on Sep 12^th, 2006, 9:47pm

If you drink too much water than you wont get to the stage of ketosis.

Ketosis is a stage where there is no sugar left for your body to burn, then the liver will move glycogen ( stored up glucose ) in its cells to burn, once thats all gone then the body will start burning proteins which are mainly in muscles. But the body doesnt like burning all the proteins so it will start burning fat then too.

Burning proteins and fat need heaps of water thats why the body can go dehydrated. But if you drink too much water the body will burn more protein than fat and you will lose muscle bulk.

Ketosis is a physiological state where the body is starved and is forced to burn the last reserve fuel ie fat. Its ok to be in that state for a short time but long time can cause organ damage.

Just look at people who suffers from long term starvation such as in South Africa, definitely not healthy.

This certainly can be done under supervision and care but its potentially dangerous if not done properly.

Annette

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by jmorgan52 on Sep 13^th, 2006, 4:51am

Thanks for the explanation BB

By the way, long term starvation is definately not a big problem here in South Africa. It is in some other parts of Africa. AIDS is our big problem.

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by BB on Sep 13^th, 2006, 8:20am

Thanks Jmorgan

I should say some parts of Africa then :)

Annette

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Melissa on Sep 13^th, 2006, 10:23am

To anyone reading this thread, if you are interested in a low carb diet, which brings you into ketosis for the first stage of the diet, buy the original Atkins book, which was the last one written by the doctor himself, and READ it. Don't just eat mainly protein and fat, because then you are not doing the diet incorrectly and that is dangerous. You need to FOLLOW the plan.

Doing a low carb plan does not cause liver or kidney damage, but doing low carb can reveal that damage you may already have (before you started the diet) and should be stopped immediately, that is why it's important to be UNDER THE CARE OF A PHYSICIAN when attempting this way of eating.

America is such a hole for diets that unfortunately the Atkins plan got completely twisted and misconstrued to the point where people were having problems like getting ill and gaining weight instead of losing because they were buying a shit load of prepackaged JUNK thinking that it'll help them lose weight.

No! Eating right and exercising will help, Atkins just helps you to get a jump start on the weight loss and then as you follow the plan, you slowly reteach yourself how to eat correctly.

I only did the first stage of the plan, where you cut all carbs but 30g a day, for 2 weeks, which is what is recommened. AND, the carbs I did eat were from vegetables, which is what is recommended in the book.

I'm sorry, but rumors fly about this particular subject and it just drives me nuts!!

Mel, who used to weigh 230lbs and now weighs 170, maintaining for 2 years and has healthy bloodwork!! :P

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Bond007 on Sep 13^th, 2006, 12:41pm

EXACTLY MEL! Even Dr. Atkins tells you only to get your body into a state of ketosis for only 2 weeks, then you should reintroducing "healthy" carbs back into your daily regimen one week at a time. The initial 2 weeks is to shock your system into burning your fat reserves and teaching you to eat and look at food from a different angle. Also, you're not eating 90% fat. That's HUGE misconception. Just because it's high-protein, doesn't necessarily mean that it also has to be high-fat. You choose meats that are lower in fat, such as ground sirloin, pork, chicken, turkey and steer clear of hams and fattier beefs.

I did the Atkins diet several years ago and lost 30 pounds in 3 months and my blood work never looked better. In fact my GP had to once tell me that I needed to start eating more bad foods because my bad cholesterol & triglycerides were far too low.

You never want to be in a state of ketosis for very long. That is unheathy and unwise, but for short periods of time while you try and readjust your metabolism and eating habits, there's no problem with it. That said, you definitely need to read the book AND be under a doctor's care while undergoing any dramatic dietary changes.

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Katherinecm on Sep 13^th, 2006, 1:05pm

Okay, while atkins IS one version of a ketogenic diet, the one used for epilepsy therapy is approximately 80% of calories of fat, 10% cals from both carbs and protein.

This means 3-4 grams of fat for every gram of protein and carbs, with a range of 75-100 cal for each 2.2 lbs, making sure to get 1-2 g protein for each 2.2 lbs. Obviously if you eat more or less you'll gain or lose weight, if that's your goal.

Apparently if you don't weigh and measure everything correctly and get outside of that range, it doesn't work to stop seizures. Think a mushroom omelet with cheese and bacon with coffee and cream for breakfast; peanut butter on several stalks of celery for lunch with a tuna or egg salad on the side; a salad with whatever meat you want, fatty things like avocado and nuts, olive oil, etc...

If you're interested in trying this, I'd try the one that works in therapy, not just atkins. At the same time, talk to your doctor about it, and read everything you can on the web. Children have been kept on this diet for 2 years at a time or more.

My plan is to try this for 2-6 weeks to see if it helps. If it does I'll then increase my calories from carbs (healthy ones such as more veggies and berries to start) and decrease from fat for about 100 calories each week until it stops working, IF it works at all.

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by Katherinecm on Sep 13^th, 2006, 1:35pm

hmm... I can't seem to get the math on the info I put above to work... [smiley=huh.gif]

At any rate, to get the 60g of protein I've read in other places as neccessary to avoid protein deficiency, if I stuck to the 80-10-10 ratio that would be like 2400 calories. I can't imagine not gaining weight on that.

Perhaps Atkins is a much better option for adults after all. So, will aim for 30g of carbs, 60g protein, 84-144g fat (1200-1800 calorie range -depending on if I want to lose or maintain weight).

Title: Re: Ketosis
Post by mcf69 on Sep 13^th, 2006, 4:27pm

Interesting theory on the ketogenic diet Katherine, I haven't had the time to look over all the research regarding it's role with migraines, but just a superficial glance tells me there may be something to it. As we all know the current understanding of CH is that grey matter in the hypothalmus somehow malfunctions and sends a signal for the blood vessels surrounding the trigeminal nerve to constrict. Much more research and understanding is needed to determine whether or not there are actually "broken" neurons which cause this, but it does make sense that the repair of neurons may help. That being said, I don't think a ketogenic diet is a good idea for anyone, damaged neurons or not, the lack of vitamins, carbs and other essential parts of the human diet, along with a high intake of fat offsets any benefit your brain may recieve in the short term. I think I'd rather have CH with my body functioning properly, rather than have no CH with everything else goofed up.